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Underground > Film, TV & Theatre >

Doctor Who, Season Four, Non-spoiler Thread

  
  

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penitentvandal
06:15 / 06.07.08
Mickey was brilliant - I love the fact that he decides to come back and help out on this Earth because his grandad needs him, and because all his parallel earth relatives 'wound up living in mansions'. That's a brilliant note to hang Mickey's development for Torchwood on - he's not into wealth or comfort, he wants to be useful. It can only help Torchwood to have someone with more of a work ethic come on board.

Are we allowed to speculate on the trailer we saw at the end of this episode? It's just I have some ideas concerning the presence of another actor called David in that trailer...
 
 
Seth
08:48 / 06.07.08
Loved Davros' speech about the Doctor turning his companions into murderers, because he was right and the Doctor knew it. The actor was brilliant, he totally sold all the shrieking lunatic moments.
 
 
osymandus
09:05 / 06.07.08
Actually Davros wasn't right. The Doctor dosnt make them do anything , while he can be hurt or disappointed by their actions , he always knows they have a choice , and thats what he gives them choice. Oh and a little hope, that theres always a way.

Glad they seem to be locking down the difference between Time Lord and Human though. As pointed out a human shouldn't be able to hold the mind of a timelord . Not due to some superiority issue but well humans have their own level to reach which isnt the same as a Time Lord.

Was a little miffed he didnt take Darlek Cann as a new companion though
8/10 over all (10 if they had finally killed Dave Ross)
 
 
Poke it with a stick
09:43 / 06.07.08
Spoilers, please? (In spoiler space to preserve the sanctity of the thread title).

It's a UK spoiler-free thread, Mark, old chap - it's been shown here so, if you don't want to be spoiled, don't read it. Or any of this:

One of the themes that RTD's consistently hammered home is that the Doctor, whilst he'll always have companions, is meant to be alone.

As early on as Gridlock (and probably before) we had the Face of Boe calling him the Lonely God and that's what he needs to be, at least whilst he takes on humans as his playmates.

The reason that, up until now, Rose was frustrated is that a Timelord couldn't settle down with a human - there'd have been too much Highlander-style angst as she aged and he didn't.

What I liked about the ending is that the companions achieved some kind of closure with the Doctor:

Sarah Jane, lost without him so long - emulating his behaviour trying to root-out alien menaces as a journalist - finally has something of her own to look out for. She leaves knowing her family is waiting for her.

Mickey too, just a poor South London boy goes home to look after his grandmother(?) with the implication he might find gainful employment helping Torchwood on Earth.

Ditto for Martha who's hopefully learned that blowing stuff up is not always the way.

Donna, now, she's the one that people seem least happy with. I've actually seen people suggesting it would have been kinder to write a death scene for her. I couldn't disagree more, frankly:

Donna, who all through her arc has refused to believe she's special, finally becomes this fabulous, wonderful hybrid then immediately realises she's going to lose it - how shit would that make her feel? To go from nothing to something amazing then back again, having to live with the memory of how incredible her life had been and how she wasn't physically or mentally capable of keeping it. I'm not sure she could have handled that - she'd have become one of those people that shout at traffic or pick fights in the post office queue because her frustration with life would have been immense.

The Doctor's only way to save her from her feelings of loss and self-loathing was to wipe her memories - delete that part that showed her the highs, so life without that knowledge could be bearable. It's a cruel, cruel way to do it, but anything else would have been far worse.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
09:43 / 06.07.08
after building up the character so well over the series, couldn't she get some kind of happiness?

Not only that, but character development. The things she's learned, seen and done, all wiped out. It's like, the last four months, what was the point of it?

There was no point. It didn't say anything, it didn't teach anybody in the show or in the audience anything worth knowing.

And Rose, ultimately, was absolutely pointless, too. What did she do? Nothing. She played less of a part in events than Martha and Jack, for cryeye. Thinking back on it, I'm not sure if she did anything at all here, if her presence was for any reason other than fanwank. Which takes us back to the end of last season and the worst of RTD's habits on this show.

I'm also completely confused as to how Donna can't survive with the mind of a Timelord in her head, because apparently it's too much for the human body to be able to cope with, but alt.human.Doctor can cope with it perfectly well. Again, another thing that made the whole Donna thing stink. There was no feeling of a coming to a logical or natural end to her arc, and the whiffyness of that glaring plot hole only makes that worse.

(While I'm on the issue of a lack of internal logic, how come the idealised childhood world that CAL built up in her own head in Silence in the Library was circa 2008?)
 
 
osymandus
10:05 / 06.07.08
'm also completely confused as to how Donna can't survive with the mind of a Timelord in her head, because apparently it's too much for the human body to be able to cope with, but alt.human.Doctor can cope with it perfectly well.


You give a South London person every single piece of knowledge of nearly every world in existance for say the last 1000 years, with near total recall , id have said Nikola Tesla couldn't handle that . The al.human.doctor is a time lord mind in a human body v different . There trying to empherhise the differences in mentality shaped by experince and learning, and Donna's life wasn't pointless , as that would be saying the experinces an Amnesia victim hand up until the moment of the accident made no sense.

As again pointed out there were worlds what would sing her name even if she could never remember it.
 
 
iamus
10:32 / 06.07.08
Aye, that's the thing with Donna. She has done tons of shit, she's remembered in folk tales from the survivors of Pompeii right the way to the Oodsphere, she's just not allowed the knowledge of all the great things she's achieved. In the same way that The Doctor's ultimately not allowed proper companionship, no matter how many civilizations he selflessly saves.

In the end, Donna is just extraordinarily normal.

(While I'm on the issue of a lack of internal logic, how come the idealised childhood world that CAL built up in her own head in Silence in the Library was circa 2008?))

She had an entire histories worth of literature to build her world from, she chose circa 2008. Don't think it really matters why she picked that particular time, other than it makes the link between the story and the kids watching it a lot more tangible.

Nah, the Doctor that Rose ends up with is just the same as the other, only able to love and share his life with her. As far as Rose is concerned, he is a *better* Doctor than the original.

It can definitely be read either way, but to me that's not the guy she fell in love with. He's not the one with the time machine, flying about out there saving worlds. He's not the guy she did all that incredible stuff with, or the guy who really needs her. No matter what they do together, or how good it is, the real Doctor's out there doing other stuff with other people.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
10:35 / 06.07.08
I don't care about those worlds anything like as much as I do the character. They were background details in her progression - often incidental to the character moments - and that progression's now been reverted.

It' pretty clear that there's still some regeneration energy stuff contained within her ring, but it's also pretty clear that that's a get out of jail free card in case she proved more popular than expected and somebody wanted to bring her back in the future.

I dunno. I kept seeing the writer's hands again all the way through this episode, and that prevented me from getting into it. It seemed like a storyline designed to get us to certain points and tie off loose ends more than one for its own sake - this is how we solve the problem of Tate not coming back next series, this is how we solve the problem of needing a new Torchwood team, this is how we deal with the ever-present Rose question, this is how we tie all of the spin-offs together, and so on.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
10:39 / 06.07.08
I mean, the point of travelling is the journey, yeah? it's what we discover on the way to wherever we're going.

Donna? To all intents and purposes, she slept through the whole thing, then woke up when she got back home.
 
 
Johnny fighters
12:02 / 06.07.08
RTD at his most interesting I thought but typically full of plot holes and things that don't make sense on closer examination. Donna's fate is bitter indeed and surprisingly bleak for what I keep on having to remind myself is a kids' show. (Good to give them something to chew on, and very much in the Who tradition of scarring impressionable minds.) Weirdly reminded me of Syd Barrett, the Doctor entrusting this fragile creature to the care of their concerned suburban family - "Don't talk about the old times, it'll only upset them..."
 
 
Lama glama
12:31 / 06.07.08
It's by no means RTD's strongest script, but it was magnificently elevated by performances and direction. Towing the Earth was the definitive punch the air moment of season 4 and the whole gang around the TARDIS console was joyous. Martha's look of excitement endeared her character to me enormously.

That beach scene was so twisted, for all the reasons already pointed out. Rose doesn't leave the show in the best light, does she? It feels like a very aggressive farewell to the character. While she's going to cure the Pseudo-Doctor of his ninth Doctor genocidal tendencies, which is wonderful I suppose, she does quite easily part with the actual man she loves. It's a continuation of the season 2 Rose, isn't it? The self-interested, besotted bore we were treated to back then? Which is an interesting and not very traditional characterisation for a companion, I suppose. I really hope we go for a pally and platonic, almost DonnaDoctor relationship for Moffat's run.
 
 
GogMickGog
12:36 / 06.07.08
You give a South London person every single piece of knowledge of nearly every world in existance for say the last 1000 years, with near total recall , id have said Nikola Tesla couldn't handle that .

Taxi drivers, anyone?

("Take that Brown. What e' wants to do to correct the economic deficit, right, is...")

On the subject of the finale, my feelings were mixed.
Frankly, I think Davies had too many irons in the proverbial fire. He's always juggled the action aspects and the soapier elements well, but here the Dalek menace felt distinctly secondary to a bunch of continuity handling, farewells (15 mins by my count, almost a quarter of the running time) and tying up loose ends.

What happened to the Shadow Proclamation? So much buildup and they didn't even make a cameo. Are we to take it that Dalek Caan's promised 'death of a companion' was a case of memory wipe? As others have said, a horrible fate for Donna, although the unwillingness to jettison any other characters we'd seriously invested in felt something of a cop out.

Still, the prospect of a Moffat penned finale next series has me raring to go.

Roll on 2010.
 
 
Triplets
14:25 / 06.07.08
What makes me laugh is that, by the end of the finale, we really did have Proper Dave and Other Dave. Well played, scriptwriters.
 
 
HCE
14:25 / 06.07.08
I kept seeing the writer's hands again all the way through this episode, and that prevented me from getting into it.

That pretty much sums it up. The thing is, as part of the audience we're already accepting an awful lot in order to be part of this show: all the little stuff that makes no sense (you have a Dalek-blasting gun? why are you not lining up a big row of those?), all the nonsense space language from the Doctor which is supposed to explain things away constantly, etc. but we're willing to set all that aside in order to open ourselves to an emotional connection with the stories.

It's what made the episode with the bus going to the diamond planet so good: it was heavy on interactions among characters and light on credulity-straining. To then find, after committing ourselves (well, I shouldn't speak for others -- myself) that the conclusion is that Donna gets to spend the rest of her life as a temp in Chiswick (sp?), Rose is given 10.2 who is half Donna (and how weird is to be given a human as a kind of living sex toy, not that I'd immediately say no to that one), and Martha as usual never seems to get any real respect from anybody no matter what she does, feels terribly disappointing. At least call her something other than 'brilliant', you prick! As clever as all that and can't even give the poor lovesick thing her own adjective?

I don't know, maybe there was never going to be a way to tie up all those stories in a single whack that wouldn't make me feel let down. All the solutions seemed mechanic rather than organic (Coleridge): they took on a form imposed by the author for his own purposes, rather than the author bringing out of the material the form it wanted to take.

My small yay moments came from Capt. Jack, as mentioned, and yes, Mickey was pretty good too, but then I've always liked him. Maybe I like the characters who are not so dazzled by the Doctor.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
17:07 / 06.07.08
I'm surprised that anybody thought that the Tardis towing the Earth back home was anything other than awful. On a par with JesusDoctor.

I need to stop thinking about this, because the more I do, the more disappointed I feel with the whole thing.

Cribbins and Dalek Caan were unquestionably great. Small comfort, given that we probably won't be seeing either of them again. Daleks speaking German was also a smart idea.

Apparently, a scene cut from the episode quite late in the day showed Donna, at the very end of the episode, looking up from her phone call as the Tardis disappeared, recognising, on a low level, the sound it made, then returning to her chatter. If that had remained in, the whole end sequence would have been vastly improved. Otherwise, as it stands, the end of the episode feels like it just peters out.

It's a continuation of the season 2 Rose, isn't it? The self-interested, besotted bore we were treated to back then? Which is an interesting and not very traditional characterisation for a companion, I suppose.

I doubt that was the intention.

Meh. I'm extremely glad that RTD isn't going to be onboard for the fifth series. Unless Moffat suddenly displays a similar tendency towards fanfic-style rubbish. Hopefully, we can go back to the Doctor saving the day without having to make a grand gesture of it.
 
 
Spaniel
17:26 / 06.07.08
Seems to me, part-timer that I am, that RTD isn't actually very good at writing Dr Who (haven't seen much of his other output). In fact I go as far as to say - decent politics aside - that he's a bit shit. Whenever I tune into one of his episodes I find myself drowning in over-wrought emotion, and plots riddled with nonsense, convenience, coincidence, and tedious portentousness.

Nope, I definitely won't miss him.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
18:00 / 06.07.08
So, did I miss much?

My long thoughts are here but the short version is that it was the best and worst story at the same time. The 'toeing the earth' thing was probably the worst thing to happen on the show since farting aliens but some of the acting was superb.
 
 
penitentvandal
18:40 / 06.07.08
Lady, your point about Dalek Caan has been something that's been bugging me all day - he goes back into the Time War, decides the Daleks are evil and then decides that the only logical way to stop them is to bring them all back so they can steal a bunch of planets, kill thousands of people, initiate a series of events that utterly fuck up Donna's head, and very nearly destroy reality itself - just so the Doctor can stop them and save the day?

My only possible explanation for this is that Dalek Caan am Bizarro Dalek. In which case he should be kept around, given a weird, home-built, steam-punk casing by some insane victorian engineer and then recur periodically to hassle the doctor by engineering similarly fubared schemes to 'save' people. Imagine the laughs as Dalek Caan trundles around a variety of historic disaster areas, shouting 'Preserve! Preserve!' while simultaneously gunning down everyone he sees, because in his mind he has to kill them so the Doctor can turn up and save them. After a couple of episodes of this even the man who NEVVVVVAH! would will be running at Caan waving an axe.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
18:42 / 06.07.08


Some of these are quite good.

Boboss> The only other RTD thing I've watched to any great degree is Casanova, which was absolutely superb. His problem on Who really has been that he's too much of a fan of the original series to be able to pull himself away from it and look at what he's writing objectively, hence the aforementioned tendency towards smelly fanfic.
 
 
Triplets
18:49 / 06.07.08
"Toeing the Earth"? Something Doctor Jason Statham would say, surely.

Statham: Fuck me, the Daleks again and they're givin' the Earth a bloody toeing!
Mickey: But they don't have legs.
Statham: You'll have no fucking legs in a minute!

Towing.
 
 
Lama glama
18:54 / 06.07.08
I can't believe towing the Earth is being equated to JesusDoctor! It's so much better: direction, music, performances. Martha's little squee is just so wonderful.
 
 
Triplets
19:04 / 06.07.08
Dalek Caan trundles around a variety of historic disaster areas, shouting 'Preserve! Preserve!' while simultaneously gunning down everyone he sees, because in his mind he has to kill them so the Doctor can turn up and save them.

LOL. My fanwank is that Dalek Caan only turned into a mentalist AFTER he had saved Dave Ross and lost his mind in the time-lock. By the time he'd 'recovered' Dave Ross had already been making Dalek babies.
 
 
Triplets
19:08 / 06.07.08
A sneak peak from the next series showing the 11th Doctor.



Also shown: Cyberman Prime and, in her hand, Cyberman Nanon.
 
 
Essential Dazzler
19:34 / 06.07.08
Wilfred Mott is an anagram of "WTF Timelord".

I am feverishly plotting season 5 on behalf of Moffat. I will be done soon.

(Bernard Cribbins hits Thatcher with a chair in episode 8)
 
 
Billuccho!
19:45 / 06.07.08
The bit where they tow the Earth back and the entire Who Family is manning the controls, complete with Martha grinning wide and Cap'n Jack pumping away (hee hee) is a brilliant and lovely moment, what I figured would be the best one in the episode, until Cribbins snuck in at the last second and stole the whole show.

This episode was all over the place, with good and bad bits flying around like drunk flies. We had not one, not two, but... okay, I lost count of how many deus ex machinas, from the Osterhagen Key to the warpstar necklace bomb to magic hand clones to human/Time Lord hybrid meta-whatevers to switches that make Daleks blow up. We had scenes built to try and please everyone-- the squeeing Rose/Doc shippers, the embittered asexual Doc non-shippers, etc. It's the biggest, fanwankiest thing ever.

But, in the end, I liked it. It's held together by fantastic moments: the Children of Time each coming up with their own Doctor-esque gambit to save the day; Martha's mature delight at the Doctor's reunion with Rose; Davros revealing the Doctor's soul; Caan's mad betrayal; Mickey being Mickey; K9 showing up; the tragedy of Donna; and, of course, towing the Earth home, and Cribbins and Tennant in the rain.

There's also the strange morality of Rose's ending. While her return may or may not have been utterly pointless (I feel she wasn't given enough to do), she leaves with a gift from the Lonely God in the form of the Lonely Jesus, both him and not him, his godness given human flesh. Doc 2 is able to tell Rose he loves her; in fact, Doc 1 makes sure he doesn't say anything, because he can't let her, or himself, go through the tragedy of having her die before his ageless eyes. It's weird that Rose accepts this, that she jumps so easily into the arms of what is basically a different man, but it's a very interesting moment that brings a few themes full circle. I'm still not sure what to think of it, but it's possibly the only way RTD could please everybody; Rose gets a Doctor who can love her, and the Doctor gets to remain a sexless, lonely wanderer.

So, as the conclusion to a four-year super-arc? Yeah, that was fun. See you at Christmas.
 
 
DavidXBrunt
20:26 / 06.07.08
Got to agree there was some meaty nice stuff for Mickey. Realising there's nothing left for him on Pete's world now his nan has died and returning to his own world was an interesting move. His nans still dead here but he does have a role. Torchwood will be much better with him in it.
 
 
Spaniel
20:34 / 06.07.08
Lollers, Trips
 
 
HCE
21:11 / 06.07.08
Tilda Swinton as 11 -- I ONLY WISH.
 
 
iamus
21:43 / 06.07.08
I think most of what's being put forth as criticism here is pretty valid, but after four years of precisely these failings in RTD's scripting, was anybody expecting anything else? The man's weaknesses are well documented, and I think that expecting a grand turnaround for this finale was a bit much. I do think that when he played to his strengths here, he hit them with aplomb. And that's all I personally was wanting.

Apparently, a scene cut from the episode quite late in the day showed Donna, at the very end of the episode, looking up from her phone call as the Tardis disappeared, recognising, on a low level, the sound it made, then returning to her chatter.

I agree that would have been a better cap for Donna herself, but I'm not sure it would've improved the ending because I reckon if you put that in, then it sucks the arse right out of Cribbins' little gut-punch of a scene. It's one or the other, far as I can see, and since I think, like everyone else, that that may have been one of the finest scenes in New Who, then I'm happy to leave as is.

The 'toeing the earth' thing was probably the worst thing to happen on the show since farting aliens but some of the acting was superb.

I just don't understand that at all. In a series that's always emphasised The Doctor's loneliness, which, after wandering from companion to companion, has again and again come back to just him alone with his Tardis, to see everyone whose life he's touched pull together and give him back the family he's been missing? While saving the earth in the most ridiculously jubilant way possible? Well, you might be a bit of a mentallist (in the nicest sense) if that doesn't work for you. I'm also not sure the actions of the group round the console was 'acting' in the strictest sense.
 
 
Saint Keggers
21:48 / 06.07.08
I was sure the Osterhagen(daas?) Key was going to end up as nothing more than an elaborate bluff.

Wow. People die. People die in war. No way. Duh. What did you think was happening Dr? le sigh.

"Now we can fly this thing..N-No Jackie. No. Not you. Just dont touch anything. Just stand back"

Now we have enough pilots to use this machine like it was meant. No more pinballin' round time and space. So lets wrangle a planet!

Wow. Compared to all the other names Earth really sucks. Who thought of that one?

Am I the only one who thinks of Mr.Boogedy when he sees Davros?

I doubt Donna is done with and I bet that damn ring has something to do with it. There's something about sparkly rings that I just dont trust anymore. Tolkien has ruined bling for everyone.

I love the fact that this is how the show has evolved, looking back on the first Doctorb and Im still amazed that it evolved at all. 20 minutes walking down a hall in black and white. insane.

"..oh, the end of the universe has come."
 
 
Dead Megatron
23:15 / 06.07.08
Lady, your point about Dalek Caan has been something that's been bugging me all day - he goes back into the Time War, decides the Daleks are evil and then decides that the only logical way to stop them is to bring them all back so they can steal a bunch of planets, kill thousands of people, initiate a series of events that utterly fuck up Donna's head, and very nearly destroy reality itself - just so the Doctor can stop them and save the day?

For what I could gather, he had seen how it plays out, so he had to play it out. He laughed so hard because he knew he was pulling the biggest prank of the universe on... the entire universe.


It was not bad, but, after the previous seasons' finales, and considering this was supposed to be a sort of "finale of finales", I was expecting just a little bit more. More action, more graudeur, more heartbreaking. It had all those things, but I was after a stronger fix thereof, to be honest.

The way half-Doctor stayed with Donna in Earth-2 was wrong in many ways, but I kinda liked it because of that. A romantic happy ending, but not a perfect one, not e one you were expecting. Sort of reminds of my own love life.


One thing I wanted to be clear about: Did the Doctor wasted one regeneration with the hand trick? Or is he still Doc-10?

I also wish for one of the next year specials to be Doctor Tennant meeting Doctor Eccleston, so we could have fun with the differences of personality between them. 10 could go back in time to the moment 8 regenerates into 9 (even before his Season 01 Episode 01 meeting with Donna), where he proceeds to give 9 encrypted clues as to his future and 9 keeps looking for, and not finding, a mirror to see his new face.

And... there better never be another Dalek episode. As villains, I think they are done for.
 
 
Dead Megatron
23:18 / 06.07.08
Wow. Compared to all the other names Earth really sucks. Who thought of that one?

You shut up. "Earth" is the most poetic planet name ever, in its simplicity and humility. Plus, do you really know what the other planets' names really mean in the language of their native people? Do ya???
 
 
Saint Keggers
01:48 / 07.07.08
Plus, do you really know what the other planets' names really mean in the language of their native people? Do ya???


YES
 
 
Mark Parsons
02:06 / 07.07.08
It's a UK spoiler-free thread, Mark, old chap - it's been shown here so, if you don't want to be spoiled, don't read it.

Yes, thanks Iscream, spoilers is what I was requesting!

Here in the US, I am awaiting delivery of dvd s4v2 this week. I liked the first three eps, but thought it was not quite as cool and opening as s2 or s3.

Was there no Cornell ep this season? I think I like his stuff as much as Moffat's.
 
 
Dead Megatron
02:15 / 07.07.08
(even before his Season 01 Episode 01 meeting with Donna)

I meant Rose, btw. duh me
 
  

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