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Bleach (Manga)

 
  

Page: 12(3)45678... 9

 
 
Seth
18:04 / 28.05.08
Unohana? Her initial release hasn't been seen, but her bankai (Minazuki the weird flying manta ray) has.

Perhaps I'd made an assumption, but I thought that was her shikai. Maybe I just thought that because of the usual order of the revelation of these things. Upon consideration it's impossible to say for sure, as the moment of its release hasn't been seen yet... upon hitting Google there's a video game that labels it as her shikai, but let's not rely on that as canon, eh?
 
 
Seth
18:14 / 28.05.08
Ah, cross-posting...

I'd figure that he still has TB for the same reason that Kukaku Shiba still only has one hand (in the manga at least)

Blimey. Not having read the whole manga, I never knew that (that Kukaku only has one arm). I guess that's a project my next rest day, eh?
 
 
Feverfew
18:24 / 28.05.08
It's a prosthetic in the animé, I believe? (I'm still maintaining my odd stance with regard to watching the anime on Region 2 DVDs, so I have to wait another month before the Soul Society arc is available.)
 
 
Feverfew
18:37 / 28.05.08
Apropos of nothing, according to the two "What BLEACH character are you?" quizzes available, I'm either Yasutora Sado or Byakuya Kuchiki. Or, granted, some sort of freakish hybrid.
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
18:44 / 28.05.08
Apparently the kiddywinks watching Bleach on TV Tokyo on Wednesday evenings would have their minds blown by the sight of a person with a missing limb, so they soft-pedalled it.

I was Aizen. That's bad, right?
 
 
Feverfew
18:45 / 28.05.08
It depends. Do you have a pair of glasses you can crumble? If so, worry.
 
 
Feverfew
18:52 / 28.05.08
One last thing, then I leave you in peace;

Blimey. Not having read the whole manga, I never knew that (that Kukaku only has one arm). I guess that's a project my next rest day, eh?

It's a good project, but here's a warning; if you intersperse Bleach with Hot Gimmick, your brain may no longer want to be your friend. I speak, alas, from experience.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
20:13 / 29.05.08
Book One just showed up at work for me, so I'll try to bang through it and try not to look like an idiot in here.
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
07:01 / 30.05.08
Just time before work to say that:-

- Chapter -100 is incredible.
- Nice reveal!
- Shunsui is now on a list.
 
 
Seth
18:48 / 30.05.08
On a list? There was me thinking that Aizen has a solid alibi in the form of Kyoraku and Nanao, which I surmised was why he so brazenly appeared before the future Vaizard rather than operating from the shadows. If all the Shinigami dispatched to the scene become Hollowised there's no telling how long it might take before they regain conscious control of themselves, which effectively counts them out as corroborating witnesses. Meanwhile Urahara and Tessai are rushing to the scene themselves, but the former was refused permission to go and the latter said they would step down because of the risk to the Kidou Corps should they go with their Lieutenant. If they are found there or report back that they have been there then they are both in trouble for disobeying orders. Furthermore with any experiment to fuse Shinigami and Hollow who will bear the brunt of the blame? Who else but the Kidou Corps and the R&D Department? I'm not necessarily saying it's a plot to frame them, or even one that frames them as a secondary gain. How can Aizen know that they are on their way there, after all?

Unless he does know. He's shady like that, isn't he?

What we don't know is how the Shinigami are becoming Hollowised, who created that method, and why Aizen, Gin and the freshly revealed Tousen are not effected by it. They seem to be at ground zero, after all. It's highly likely that they were the three seen in silhouette, so they've been close to it before and whatever it is they're doing doesn't seem to be effecting them. Aizen says at the end of the Soul Society arc that he's seeking to become a Vaizard because he's hit the ceiling as a Shinigami, so we can fairly say that he isn't a Vaizard already. So what has he been doing for the last hundred years? Can we guess that they have gotten hold of something that Urahara has been working on, possibly via Mayuri, in exchange for setting up the Captain of the 12th?
 
 
Seth
19:51 / 30.05.08
Welcome to the fun, Papers!
 
 
Red Concrete
20:38 / 30.05.08
And yet Tousen appears to have been already Vaizardised?

I think the big (huge?!?) revelation here is that the Vaizards, and potentially Urahara and Tessai, have known that Aizen, Tousen and Gin are traitors to the Shinigami for about 100 years!...
 
 
Seth
22:05 / 30.05.08
Innit. Which opens much more speculation... if they knew that then, what's stopped people from acting until now?

And yet Tousen appears to have been already Vaizardised?

Sometimes a mask is just a mask, especially since none of his colleagues in the ninth were recoiling at his Hollowised reiatsu (just what is it with that reiatsu, anyway?).
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
09:11 / 31.05.08
On a list?

I was referring to Kyouraku's meeting with Nanao - what with their future already known and Shunsui's "I always make a note of the young girls' names", it seems as if a visit to 8th Division from Social Services might be on the cards. Bad joke, best not dwell. More pertinently, this scene was in its odd manner a lovely way to introduce Nanao, with her established bookishness (remember her bonding with Hinamori through reading together? - here's where that habit got started) and Shunsui's tenderness and very evident concern for Lisa.

There was me thinking that Aizen has a solid alibi in the form of Kyoraku and Nanao, which I surmised was why he so brazenly appeared before the future Vaizard rather than operating from the shadows.

Was what Kyouraku saw the real Aizen? He used his shikai to hypnotize everybody during the SS arc and move around freely; if he's kept its true nature under wraps all this time I don't see why he wouldn't be using the exact same strategy here. With it established that Hirako and Tousen are the only ones guaranteed to be able to penetrate or otherwise be unaffected by his illusions, I have a feeling Hiyori was chosen as one of those targeted for Hollowization largely to ensure the former would be present at the experiment site. Of course, Aizen could be planning to deal with Urahara, whom he's probably already judged his most dangerous opponent, in another way, so whether Urahara rushing to the scene against orders was part of the plan I've no idea.

I think the big (huge?!?) revelation here is that the Vaizards, and potentially Urahara and Tessai, have known that Aizen, Tousen and Gin are traitors to the Shinigami for about 100 years!...
Innit. Which opens much more speculation... if they knew that then, what's stopped people from acting until now?


Wild speculation: after these events, Urahara takes it upon himself to mop up the damage indirectly caused by his and 12th's experiments getting into the hands of Aizen. The Vaizards go into cold storage while he works on a 'cure' (whether he's really working on a cure or using this as a cover for building up their strengths, it could be one or both) - there's a brief scandal, Urahara's disgraced publicly and exiled. Yoruichi uses her resources and influence to ensure he doesn't go without taking a good quantity of useful resources with him, preparatory to the fight back against Aizen. Where Tessai figures in I'm not sure at this stage - he might make a show of resigning as head of the Kidou Corps for his failure to prevent the massacre and complicity in disobeying orders together with Urahara. The whole affair gets brushed under the carpet, and Aizen and everybody else gets on with their affairs, only not really.
 
 
Seth
09:18 / 31.05.08
We've been told that Urahara's crime was creating an untraceable gigai... what if that was just the public statement, with the actual crime being exactly who he made untraceable? I'm thinking he gave the Vaizard everything they needed to escape. Since we know that the gigai eats reiatsu and turns you into a normal human, perhaps this is also what he did to Isshin...
 
 
Seth
09:19 / 31.05.08
And I'm thinking that the Vaizard would have needed to escape because Soul Society would have turned on them, hence their hatred of Shinigami.
 
 
Seth
23:30 / 31.05.08
Just a quick thought. In Bleach -100 it's seems clear that it was Tousen who took out his own colleagues in the 9th Division rather than Gin as I'd previously speculated. If so… well, we still haven't seen him actually do anything particularly evil or appalling, have we?

Going further on the subject of Kubo's use of *tell us something that conflicts with what we're seeing/tell us something is the case when we haven't actually seen it* it's kinda fun to consider exactly how many major fights Ichigo has actually won unambiguously. I'd actually argue it's as few as just one: his battle with Dordonii.

Taking the rest in order.

1) Ichigo and Grand Fisher wounded each other badly leading to the latter escaping the battle. The fight was never truly finished.

2) He never actually fought Ishida, they just engaged in a competition that Strawberry would never have agreed to had he known what it entailed, and they subsequently joined forces when it got out of hand.

3) Madarame Ikkaku didn't fight at full strength to avoid showing his bankai and used his deliberate defeat in order to set Ichigo up to battle Zaraki Kenpachi.

4) Abarai Renji was conflicted about the fight in the first place because at heart he was in accord with Ichigo's mission to rescue Rukia. His first fight with Renji in Karakura Town was interrupted by Byakuya.

5) I've written extensively about the fight with Zaraki Kenpachi in the Bleach anime thread. In summary only Kenpachi believes he lost this fight for reasons of his own, to the viewer (and Yachiru!) it appeared as though they fought each other to a standstill.

6) Ichigo broke Senbonzakura with his final strike but we've seen time and again that Kuchiki Byakuya doesn't need his zanpakuto in order to fight (indeed, the nastiest attack that he inflicts in this fight is Kidou-based). The situation was tearing him up inside, much like his Lieutenant, probably worse in fact. Byakuya shows that his resolve to win is broken at two points; firstly when Ichigo defeats his Hollow persona and he understands that if Strawberry had won like that he wouldn't have beaten him for the right reasons, it wouldn't have been his true resolve; and secondly when he offers to tell Ichigo why he supports Rukia's death sentence should he be beaten. It's this latter one that's really telling, as he's actually building Ichigo's resolve while admitting for the first time that defeating him is possible. Byakuya goes all the way to satisfy his own pride, but his heart just isn't in it.

7) Ichigo fights Grimmjow three times, and every time the fight is broken up by someone who ranks higher than Jaegerjacques. First Tousen, then Ulquiorra, then Nnoitra. You could argue that the final interruption is irrelevant because Ichigo has already beaten him, but I'd say that's not the case because Grimmjow shows he would never stop until either he or Strawberry were dead, and Ichigo would be unwilling to kill him (he's still never killed anyone, over three hundred issues into the run).

I guess one of the reasons I'm so interested in this is that one of the most frequent criticisms levelled at Bleach concerns Ichigo winning every fight he faces after receiving a convenient power-up. As far as I'm concerned it's a criticism that can only be dreamed up by a person sleeping through the story, because as far as I can see it has never even happened once, let alone several times. If there is a pattern at all, it's that the most unambiguous personality in the story continually ends up slap bang in the most ambiguous circumstances… which is a rather more interesting prospect.
 
 
Triplets
23:59 / 31.05.08
I... I think I love you.
 
 
Seth
23:59 / 31.05.08
I can't believe I've forgotten to post possibly the most important question I have about the Turn Back the Pendulum Arc... why are we being told this now and in this way? Previous flashbacks have been woven into the main story at relevant moments in the main action. I'm actually quite suspicious that this isn't. What major events are about to take place for which this is all essential information?
 
 
Seth
00:01 / 01.06.08
I... I think I love you.

I love you too. We are all obsessed together.

These threads are a major source of what keeps me sane at work.
 
 
Triplets
10:55 / 01.06.08
With it established that Hirako and Tousen are the only ones guaranteed to be able to penetrate or otherwise be unaffected by his illusions

Tousen I understand but why would Shinji?
 
 
Seth
18:10 / 02.06.08
Another line of possible speculation. The sky in Las Noches... which major character has a firmly established history of that particular style of interior design?
 
 
Seth
18:18 / 02.06.08
Tousen I understand but why would Shinji?

Shinji realises that Aizen is there in the garden when he goes to speak to Urahara. In practise I'm not sure we can swing that one though. We know that the condition of hypnosis is that you have to see Aizen call out his shikai... while it's likely that Shinji has seen that (which leads me to wonder whether Aizen has anything special stored up for him in future) it would seem unfair for Kubo to reference yet another unseen sequence of Aizen using it just so that Urahara can be effected. I'm guessing that Aizen hid himself in the garden by other means, otherwise his shikai cat would be firmly out of the bag.

It'd be nice to see him fight with his fake water-based confusion shikai, though.
 
 
Triplets
13:48 / 03.06.08
Is Aizen faking his ultimate goal? We're told that he's experimenting on hollowification in order to realise his true, ultimate power, stating that he's already attained master of all four shinigami forms (swordsmanship, hand-to-hand, kido, footwork). But has he? When he uses the Level 90 Black Coffin spell on Kommamura, without an incantation, he tells Gin he only managed to generate about a third of it's destructive power, leaving Kommamura alive.

Meanwhile, in the Pendulum flashback, we see Hatchi use a Level 99 attack spell on a Hollow Kensei, again without incantation, and worries that he managed to OVER do it.

Now, Hatchi is a specialist in Kido but is this a clue that Aizen might be fakin', or possibly deluding himself?
 
 
Razor Wind
14:14 / 05.06.08
Has anyone read chapter 0 (it's in the English volume 23)?
It's basically what happened the day before Rukia and Ichigo crossed paths and is split up into an 'A-side' (Ichigo's story,subtitled "the sand") and a 'B-side' (Rukia's,subtitled "the rotator"). Both of them have a monologue woven into the panel reflecting (I think) their feelings. They sound like a quote; not certain though.

Ichi's has him going about his school day,with a brief cameo from Ishida. It then shows him going to visit a ghost to leave a present and only finding blood. We finish with him saying he'll visit that little girl ghost in the first chapter,waving goodbye to Chad and the monologue ending,"If I cannot protect them from the wheel... then give me a strong blade... and enough strength... to shatter fate." Quite telling.

Rukia's has some backstory detailing her appointment to Karakura Town and of Renji's appointment to Vice-Captain. Ukitake sees her off and says he'll tell Byakuya if she doesn't want to trouble him. Cut to Hinamori and Kira giving Renji his promotion,with Ikkaku looking on.

Details:
Rukia has been to the real world before with Kiyone as her aide,but this is her first assignment as a Soul Reaper to a place in the real world.
Ikkaku,and presumably everyone else,knows about Renji's attempt to reach Captain Byakuya's level and about his and Rukia's relationship.
Renji hasn't talked to Rukia for forty years,presumably since she was adopted by the Kuchiki clan. (I think that's what Ikkaku meant. Quote: "It's been forty years. Isn't it time you talked to her?")
Given we're going into minus numbers in the current arc,this is a good reminder of how far we've come since that solitary shinigami first leapt from a telegraph pole,all business.
 
 
Seth
15:49 / 05.06.08
I haven't read issue 0, but what you described was adapted as anime episode 109... in other words the final wrap-up episode of the Bound Arc. I wondered at the time why the writing seemed so much better than the preceding filler, and I guess now I know. In the context of the anime it's a very well placed insertion, giving the otherwise unsatisfying filler arc an emotionally satisfying resolution and bringing things full-circle before the anime picked up where it left off with the comic for the start of the Arrancar Arc.

Trying to source that issue online now for the sake of completism. Can anyone help there?
 
 
Maat
12:44 / 06.06.08
#99 - *runs round in tiny circles in excitement*

I have loads of stuff to say all these coomments and no time, also.. *flails*

Back later.
 
 
Seth
14:00 / 06.06.08
That image of Urahara with the hood of his reiatsu-masking cloak seeming to reference the ever-present hat he will come to wear much later, swooping down behind Aizen, whose half shown face shows for the first time one eye opened wide and startled... I think it's one of the most beautifully drawn, explosively timed panels I've ever seen in the medium. It's the shot that we've been waiting for years to see, and somehow Kubo has managed to load this single frame with such a dwarf star of content on the relationship between these two central manipulators that none of our expectations are let down. Urahara's face is almost completely unreadable but Aizen's shock is never revealed to his enemy and his guard is back up within seconds.

With the weird skillsets of Urahara and Tessai at the scene against orders, the certainty that fresh alarm bells are ringing at Seireitei due to the taking out of Shinji and the other investigators/future Vaizard and Aizen having a solid alibi, all the three of them have to do now is run away to frame the two would-be rescuers. Especially if Aizen et al have been using experimental research liberated from the R&D Department's labs by way of Mayuri in a bid to get rid of his CO.

Poor Shinji. So thoroughly outsmarted.
 
 
Seth
23:38 / 07.06.08
Reading back...

It appears as though Urahara either set up the Vaizard with everything they needed and then left them to their own devices (ie: they constructed the training ground to specifications that he left them), or he is deliberately keeping Isshin in the dark about them. I say this because Isshin refers to them (in #187) as "The criminal group of ex-Shinigami that uses forbidden spells to acquire Hollow powers. We never found their base of operations, nor uncovered their goals." It seems as though he doesn't know anything about how they were created or where they have been, and has instead bought into what's either a kind of cover story or what Soul Society genuinely thinks took place. He knows about the Hougyoku, but by this point in the story it's common knowledge.

Isshin hasn't taken the form of a Shinigami for twenty years, so I imagine we won't get his backstory for quite some time given that the current flashbacks are set one hundred years ago. I'm thinking that the sash that he wears over his left arm is a Division Zero uniform... in the illustrations it looks as though there is a strap across it, possibly to cover their insignia.

Does anyone else think that Hachi looks like a pink haired G.K. Chesterton/Fiddler's Green?
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
08:58 / 08.06.08
It's hard to describe how pure win the panels of Urahara in this chapter are... hard, but not impossible, which is why El D managed it. That hood and buttoned cape combo makes Urahara look like some supercharged amalgam of every premodern fictional detective, an effect only magnified by the feeling that in this scene, we're looking at Bleach's own Holmes, Watson and Moriarty meeting as the people they'll eventually become for the very first time.

That was incoherent, so I'll just add that my last question for the next chapter is whether Aizen has already outmanoeuvred Urahara, or if we're finally going to see these two fight in earnest... given that Tessai could probably handle Gin and Tousen by himself at their current level, a battle between the two principals seems both inevitable and welcome. The reason I don't think we'll see it, though, is that this flashback hasn't included any allusions to Urahara's artificially induced bankai, which he'll be forced to use in any fight with Aizen, and this lack of foreshadowing might mean that Kubo isn't going to tie up that particular minor yet intriguing narrative thread just yet.

Does anyone else think that Hachi looks like a pink haired G.K. Chesterton/Fiddler's Green?

Thank you! That visual reference had been eluding me for ages. The Vaizards' designs are some of my favourites from this entire series and now I have the shorthand I wanted for Hachi... he can go join Sailor Sappho, Jamie Hewlett's Lupin III, the vampire Lestat, Lady Sovereign, Catfish Collins, Kid Solid Snake and ADD Orange Ranger in the hideout until we need them again.
 
 
Seth
17:04 / 08.06.08
Urahara look(s) like some supercharged amalgam of every premodern fictional detective, an effect only magnified by the feeling that in this scene, we're looking at Bleach's own Holmes, Watson and Moriarty meeting as the people they'll eventually become for the very first time.

There's still room for an unpleasant spin on that relationship, as there may be a few gambits that have yet to play out... particularly concerning the perpetually problematic Mayuri.

My working theory at the moment runs like this:

At an undisclosed point in the past Urahara begins to develop the Hougyoku. He creates prototypes but realises that they are extremely unpredictable and dangerous after testing it on himself (in much the same way that he tested the bankai in three days technique on himself).

He and Yoruichi (and possibly Tessai) aren't happy with the status quo in Soul Society and have been amassing power in order to bring about reforms. One of the most recent steps in that strategy is to have Urahara become captain of the twelfth, which gives him the position, resources and budget to press many of his experiments further... including the Hollowfication technique. Perhaps this is another part of the power they were amassing, possibly with the intention of taking on the King himself if necessary

However, he cannot test it on humans souls in Soul Society or Shinigami. This is for two reasons. Firstly, it's dirty work, and Urahara gets other people to do his dirty work for him. By manipulating someone else into doing it he shields himself from the full moral weight, because it's not like he did it with his own two hands. Urahara either accepts that about himself or is deceiving himself about his own motivations. By getting someone else to do it he also creates a scapegoat, a fall guy, someone to distance himself from should the testing be discovered.

Enter Mayuri. A perfect candidate. Mayuri isn't half the scientist that Urahara is (recall the times when he refers to Urahara pulling off what he cannot) but he has no moral compunctions about testing on people (which we've seen before with the Quincy) and also has a proven track record of villainy, or at least rank undesirability (otherwise he wouldn't have been in the Maggots Nest). Kurotsuchi can easily be led to believe that he has gained the upper hand by *discovering* Urahara's most secret research (this was also his goal with Szayel, remember) and seeking to trump his CO as both a scientist (by perfecting the Hougyoku first) and by revealing Urahara's plans to Soul Society (thereby appearing to be the good guy and deposing his Captain). All Urahara has to do is keep that risk contained in order to eventually scapegoat him, using his practised bumbling idiot persona to convince everyone that he really thought that he was just being a decent humanitarian by giving Kurotsuchi a second chance.

However Urahara makes one massive tactical miscalculation. He assumes that Mayuri is easily to control because he is contained. Everyone hates and distrusts him, and he is so misanthropic that he hates and mistrusts everyone else. He assumes that Mayuri will have no choice but to work alone to achieve his goals, and completely disregards the possibility that there might be an even more horrific monster lurking in Seireitei.

Enter Aizen. Mayuri chooses the longer game of delaying his own immediate gratification if he can be much more certain of swinging the finger of blame back onto his own Captain, and he needs to appear to be morally spotless in order to pull that off. He allows Aizen to take the risks for him because Aizen is much more capable of covert operations. Either Mayuri is in the dark about Aizen's long term goals or he is fully clued up and as equal a partner as Gin and Tousen.

On which note, let's consider Tousen's stated motivation, which he says is also true of helping Aizen: "What these blind eyes see is the path of least bloodshed." As I recall that has been used time and again to justify dropping the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, that the consequences of that action were not as dire as the alternative because it would be an effective deterrant to further war. That's why both sides in WWII were seeking to split the atom... and what if the same thing is happening here? That there is a race to depose the King, with Aizen, Tousen and Gin on the one side and Urahara, Yoruichi and Tessai on the other. Perhaps Tousen thinks that the opponents intend to achieve it by weight of numbers and diversity of skills alone (three entire divisions, strong allies plus complete control of the Special Forces, R&D Department and Kidou Corps), which he believes will be a bloodbath that the Hougyoku can avert. In effect, Tousen believes that attaining Hollowfication will bring enough power to the table to prevent a full scale civil war.

It's going to be interesting to see exactly how far wrong I am in this assessment, but to the best of my knowledge it fits all the available facts... but of course that's assuming that we have everything we need in order to make the assessment.
 
 
Feverfew
17:19 / 09.06.08
Obscure question alert;

Regarding Ichigo's zanpakuto. In the beginning, his huge sword - "a big ball of fluff", to paraphrase Urahara badly - stemmed from him having taken on Rukia's Shinigami powers lock, stock and barrel as opposed to time-sharing as she intended.

Then, Byakuya destroys Ichigo's power centres, resulting in his return to being a (relatively) normal human, and with this , fluff-zanpakuto departs.

When Ichigo then submits to being trained by Urahara, it's noted that only the borrowed power centres were destroyed, and that Ichigo's own, natural shinigami powers can be awakened. The first exercise, avoid-being-pulped-by-Ururu, was designed to increase his spirit energy. But following the second exercise - 'wait-to-die-at-the-bottom-of-shaft-being-watched-by-Tessai ' - Ichigo manifests his own powers, and begins his dialog with Zangetsu.

Except that when he passes this exercise and re-emerges, he's still holding the previous sword that Byakuya broke down to a couple of inches about the guard.

So, from a lengthy preamble in which I may have answered my own query, a question; if Ichigo had had the power centres related to the power borrowed from Rukia destroyed, why did he still manifest the same - broken - zanpakuto from that time following the forced re-emergence of his own power centres? Surely it should have emerged as his own zanpakuto rather than the manifestation previously created?

My theories run as follows:

(I) Dramatic expediency - it's the imagery of the final piece of borrowed power being cut down to nothing that forces Ichigo to stand on his own two feet

(II) Psychological aspects - Ichigo still sees himself as symbolically 'broken' for his inability to fight against Byakuya and save Rukia, who gave her power to save him.

(III) Fluff-sword was Zangetsu all along, expressed via Rukia's borrowed power rather than Ichigo's own, and merely manifested in this form because of Strawberry's total inexperience.

I'd be interested in the thoughts of others, though.
 
 
Seth
12:59 / 10.06.08
I took it that the zanpakuto was a kind of physical form of the Shinigami's soul, with the sword's manifested form the Bleach equivalent of a spirt guide/HGA/totem. Ichigo's was always going to be Zangetsu, despite where the fuel came from for his particular reservoir of reiatsu. Byakuya's strike took out the power supply he had gained from Rukia, but Ichigo's own titanic reiatsu was always present, even before he met Rukia (otherwise he wouldn't have drawn the attention of the Hollows in the first place). Note that in many of his major battles in the opening chapters (against Grand Fisher, the Menos and Renji) his own reiatsu was always the deciding factor, kicking in when he had exhausted what he had gained from Rukia.
 
 
Feverfew
20:29 / 10.06.08
Thank you - that's a helpful explanation.

To put it another way, the borrowed power was kindling, and when that went up, Ichigo's own petrol-impregnated firewood reiatsu kicked in.

So when Byakuya removes the kindling, Urahara has to find the right accelerant to get Ichigo's fire going again. Except that when he finally does, it's a blowtorch rather than a flamethrower.

The first sword's immaterial really, in that it's just a placeholder; it is Zangetsu, but Ichigo doesn't know that, and Rukia doesn't get a chance - or doesn't want - to tell him that.
 
 
Seth
12:41 / 11.06.08
The first sword's immaterial really, in that it's just a placeholder; it is Zangetsu, but Ichigo doesn't know that, and Rukia doesn't get a chance - or doesn't want - to tell him that.

It's the same sword, it's just that after it breaks and then restores itself as the cleaver it's stuck at shikai and cannot go back to the way it was, much like Zaraki Kenpachi's sword. It's one of the reasons why ZK thinks they have so much in common.

I think you've hit on one of the reasons that Rukia feels so guilty. Believing Ichigo to be a temporary substitute she didn't tell him anything about his zanpakuto.
 
  

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