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Bleach (Manga)

 
  

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Maat
06:09 / 28.11.08
#336 - Kubo, if you kill Matsumoto you and I are going to fall out!

Also, much as I love Hisagi and Kira can we please have one of the female shinigami (other then a captain) win a fight without being rescued.

I am wondering, however, if this is going to lead to some kind of resolution of the Matsumoto/Gin/Hisagi unrequited love triangle.
 
 
Seth
10:34 / 28.11.08
As far as I'm concerned it can only be classed as a proper *rescue* if Kira and Hisagi are capable of faring any better against Alan than Matsumoto and Hinamori. At the moment they've used the element of surprise to stop an attack, nothing more. My desired outcome would be that they also require saving, and although many of my recent predictions have been WAY off the mark I'd hazard a guess that narrative logic points that way. My reasoning is that Hinamori's dramatic entrance would have pointed towards her being the rescuer, but she's been taken out unexpectedly fast. Hisagi and Kira had to appear given their histories with Momo and Rangiku and we knew they were on the battlefield anyway, so them turning up doesn't have a great deal of cache as a last minute decisive strike. They have also both won their respective earlier battles (without so much as a scratch), neither of which happened a long time ago. It therefore wouldn't surprise me if the blokes got just as mullered as the lasses, if not more so.

Rangiku Matsumoto = fucked up by Alan. Never saw that coming. But I'm certain she won't die here. We've seen nameless Shinigami Red Shirts survive worse than this. Grievously wounded though she is I get the feeling that it's the ones who are still fighting at the end of this battle who carry the strongest risk of death. Ikkaku, Yumichika, Matsumoto and Hinamori all seem relatively safe for the time being. I'm sticking to the position I took right at the start of this thread... that Kyoraku, Ukitate and Yamamoto are in more danger than the rest of the cast.

Although saying that, all the best healers seem to be in Hueco Mundo right now. Where are Iemura, Ogido and the rest of 4th Division? They have to be nearby, right?

Halibel's Fraccion have taken out two Lieutenants and their only lasting injuries are self-inflicted. Is that an indicator that they are more powerful than Barragan's Fraccion, of whom only Po achieved any kind of short-lived victory (although Coolhorn was still alive last time we saw him, plus Findor and Omaeda's unnamed opponent haven't been killed on-panel yet... but we can fairly safely assume that they're out of the equation because Barragan himself has appeared before Soi Fong). Sun Sun, Mila Rose and Apache seem to have sidestepped any conventional wisdom about power levels by donating their arms to Alan...

...come to think of it, that's also a bit dodgy innit? Three women decide that the surest bet for a quick victory against two women is to sacrifice parts of themselves in order to become a man? And that once they've made their blokish avenger they achieve two decisive strikes within the space of a few pages? I don't think the fact that Alan is referred to as their 'pet' makes it any easier to swallow.

Up to the Winter War storyline it always seemed to me that Tite Kubo just about scraped by and avoided charges of outright sexism. Yes, his female characters exist on a far narrower spectrum of body types than the males, who are allowed to be fat and unattractive. To accuse him of sexism due to that would seem disproportionate given that this is how women appear in virtually every comic ever written, regardless of the country of origin (the body-type spectrum is actually wider than most mainstream American comics, Amanda Waller notwithstanding). And yes, female characters with big tits get a lot of comments, Thunderwitch is on the receiving end of an attempted panty-peek, Kon looks up Rukia's skirt, Isshin has a bizarre relationship with his daughters, Asano has a recurring pervgasm for Matsumoto in her school uniform... for the most part it's mainly male characters doing the commenting, words like 'baka' and 'hentai' get thrown around, and the harassing and lecherous male usually gets painted as the lovable idiot and dispatched with a bit of throwaway slapstick, or sometimes seems portrayed as almost heroic for their honesty and ability to express themselves so openly. No matter how many times they're knocked back by the female characters they don't change, if the woman goes too far in her objection she's usually played for laughs, and so the actions of the male are largely endorsed and depicted as harmless rather than condemned outright. Again, this is a problem for the whole medium and it would be a little unfair to single Bleach out from the crowd.

Having two epic *Rescue The Princess From the High Tower* narrative arcs in a row was always going to be problematic, both in terms of telling a satisfying story and leaving yourself open to accusations of sexism. I think we've already give a comprehensive answer to the former charge in this thread but sidestepped the latter. Maat's offered a link and we talked about it very briefly in the other thread, but that's it really. Given that the male protagonist's primary motivation in the two major story arcs has been the rescue of two females with whom he has ambiguous relationships, have we sidestepped a little too far?

So, how do we approach this? Maat has said can we please have one of the female shinigami (other then a captain) win a fight without being rescued. Is this a definite pattern to the battles? Do the girls get rescued more frequently than the guys? And is that a fair judge of the sexism of any given story? How does this relate to the wider themes of rescue and protection? And how does Bleach compare to other shonen serials in this respect?
 
 
Seth
17:40 / 05.12.08
Do opinions change now that Alan has proved himself to be an equal ops monster?
 
 
hachiman
11:17 / 08.12.08
I'm waiting see if Kubo is actually going to off any f the characters involved in this fight.

Since the Showdown in the Soul Society arc he's been reluctant to have nay of the fatalities incurred stick, and i think the story is suffering for it.

Still it was scary cool to see characters you like ruffed up. I'm actually kinda worried about the lieutenants involved.

Plus the awesome of seeing Yamamoto finally kick into hi-gear before what i expect will be his final battle is quite an exciting prospect.
 
 
Razor Wind
23:12 / 12.12.08
338: I've been waiting for a moment like this ever since I first saw the old man in action. It's strangely anticlimactic to see that yep,he's just as powerful as he's been set up to be; he made bad monster go away.

It was somewhat dull,even. I wonder why:
Overpowered villain - major threat;
Overpowered goodie on main cast - boring if not handled correctly.
 
 
Feverfew
18:37 / 14.12.08
It does successfully portray Old Man Yama as the ultimate patriarchal father-figure for Soul Society, however, as he's stepping up to the plate to prove that the monster under the bed is, in fact, not to be worried about.

Ultimately, I see Yamamoto as the aforementioned Father Figure and Aizen as a curious Rebellious Teenager archetype, determined to rebel against the previous generation by absolutely any means necessary; and while Yamamoto may have the advantage in terms of brute force, Aizen has the advantage of total control over information (or, at least, what people believe), and so is poised to fight a generational war by changing people's hearts and minds instead of beating them down.

Maybe.

For me, there are tiny things that highlight the differences between Soul Society and the modern world - yes, there are some glaringly obvious moments, but sometimes it's things like Onigiri that highlight how different Seireitei is from the modern world, and that's what some people obviously think needs changing.
 
 
hachiman
10:38 / 16.12.08
I'm still in the camp that believes old man yama is just beingset up for his fall.

He defeated the monster effortlessly, and now in the next few hapters one of the big bad's, probably aizen, will effortlessly take him down, to emphasize the "we're @#$$ed!" factor.

Here's hoping Kubo pulls of a legendary death scene for old man yama.
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
18:03 / 17.12.08
Christmas came early, yo.

I've been absent from this thread for a little while, for personal reasons, but this super-fast release of chapter 339 (with an always-welcome colour poster that gives me seasonal tingles) couldn't be a better time to jump back on the horse. It is fucking on. And with all the cards on the table - save, of course, for whatever Aizen's still got up his sleeve, since it's as yet undetermined whether the remaining Espada being defeated in battle with the Six Hearts Crew and Gotei 13 will count as a setback or just the next stage in his plan - I'm wondering just how long Kubo can keep his notorious aversion to killing off his characters from hobbling the series' credibility beyond repair.

For me it just doesn't ring true that Yamamoto would spare the lives of Mila Rose, Sun-Sun and Apache out of "respect for their spirit". He's been fighting Hollows, defending both the human world and Soul Society from their depredations - albeit in a somewhat overpowered and, as Zommari would argue, genocidal manner - for over two thousand years. He's probably fought naturally occurring Arrancar before, and there's no evidence that he had any contrary opinion on the Council of 46's sentence of death on the Vizards, so for him to be merciful on the grounds that they fought well doesn't seem in keeping with his character. It's traditionally a bad thing for the author's hand to be seen at work, but I can only assume that Yamamoto has spared Halibel's Fraccion because, as El Directo intimated earlier, she's being earmarked as one of the less evil Espada and will be permitted to fight Hitsugaya to a standstill before the next phase in Aizen's plan pulls the rug out from under everyone. The same can be said of Stark (Primera Espada, huh? so much for my predictions) and Lilinette, who have already formed relationships with their respective opponents; Barragan will probably meet his end at Soi Fong's hands, but it's possible that fight could still surprise us if, for example, Omaeda keeps on with the character progression he began earlier and carries out some fatal or near-fatal self-sacrifice for his superior, giving her the chance to finally drop her fighting persona and demonstrate the humanity and vulnerability that's been firmly under wraps since her last confrontation with Yoruichi.

As for El Directo's call for opinions on the status of sexism in Bleach... this is a shaming thing to say but I don't know if I have anything useful to offer that hasn't already been said, either in these two threads or in the essay Ma'at showed us. I agree that the series is not and should not be off the hook in re the pervasive minor incidences of slapstick leching which, for all that they get rewarded with a swift kick and a cry of 'baka', continue without any sense of the characters being urged into self-examination or mending their ways. More difficult is the undeniable problem of having two damsel-in-distress plotlines in a row, yet I'll admit that the major problem I've had with the abduction of Orihime is the way it's flattened her character into a simply earnest and self-effacing possessor of the healing abilities and 'special unique power' conferred on bland female characters in JRPGs; Rukia, for all she was rendered passive and powerless during her incarceration, was still able to continue with some of the most exceptional character development the series has ever given us. I don't feel the same way about Inoue's development, and the manner in which she's been used as a handy portable focus for Ichigo's righteous ire by successive Espada - she's been hauled around by Yammy, Ulquiorra, Grimmjow, Nnoitra and Stark - coupled with the exceptionally nasty events centred around the chapter 'Monster', makes me think that Bleach is by no means safe from a spot in the Women in Refrigerators hall of shame. Harming or endangering a well-regarded female character to inflame the audience's reactions is a cheap move no matter how you look at it.

As for comparisons with other shonen series - well, I don't have nearly as much experience in this area to be able to call this, but I'll say three things in Bleach's favour: fan service or no, the majority of the women in this series get to wear clothes that a flesh-and-blood woman might possibly feel comfortable wearing, they bathe behind closed doors more frequently than not, and they almost never have to make someone breakfast. I'm watching/reading Soul Eater (which, insultingly enough, actually has a somewhat interesting, sympathetic, physically capable female protagonist who has an otherwise healthy and equal relationship with the male lead) - in comparison, Bleach is way ahead of the Shonen Jump pack. Your non-otaku perspective may see things differently, of course.
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
18:09 / 17.12.08
Oh, and Ma'at, you needn't have seriously worried about Kubo killing Matsumoto - she's his favourite. (Page 2.)
 
 
Seth
13:10 / 23.12.08
Radio silence these past couple of weeks = Seth on holiday.

Razor Wind: Overpowered villain - major threat;
Overpowered goodie on main cast - boring if not handled correctly.


Feverfew: It does successfully portray Old Man Yama as the ultimate patriarchal father-figure for Soul Society, however, as he's stepping up to the plate to prove that the monster under the bed is, in fact, not to be worried about.

hachiman: He defeated the monster effortlessly

Transfer: For me it just doesn't ring true that Yamamoto would spare the lives of Mila Rose, Sun-Sun and Apache out of "respect for their spirit".

My interpretation is exactly the opposite of these. While Yamamoto may have beaten Alan without taking a hit himself he underestimated his opponent twice. The chimera was shot through the heart and cut in half, and the Captain of Division 1 only managed to beat him by incinerating him completely. In other words: Yamamoto, the man in charge of the Gotei 13, the oldest and most experienced Shinigami of them all, failed twice in a row to beat a mere animal and needed a third shot to get lucky.

That might seem to be an academic distinction, but in a series like Bleach it's pretty vital. Every fight is about power and status relationships, which means that outcomes can seem to be entirely counter-intuitive. Fights escalate with progressive revelations of power not just because it's freakin' cool (it is), but because the optimum honourable outcome for many combatants is defeating the enemy with precisely the right amount of force, even if it potentially increases the risk to themselves (it's cowardly to be afraid of pain and death). Yamamoto could have incinerated Alan with his first blow, but if you hit an enemy too hard you run the risk of people thinking that you overestimated them because you were afraid of them. This leads to situations like the one in which Nnoitra chose to leave Chad alive rather than acknowledge him as a potential future threat (dealing the death blow would have made him lose face in front of Tesla).

Yamamoto humiliated himself by requiring three hits in order to accurately assess his enemy. He covered for it in two ways. First, he continually patronised both his opponent and the defeated Lieutenants, making disparaging comments about their lack of fighting ability which 'forced' him to take to the battlefield. But it took three 'final blows' to off Alan. The Lieutenants couldn't scratch him. That places the chimera at roughly Captain/Espada level, which is clearly more than Iba, Hinamori, Matsumoto, Hisagi and Kira could have handled. Nevertheless, Yamamoto admonishes them for a lack of power to cover for his own lack of insight. And we know his stated reasons for refusing to kill Sun Sun, Mila Rose and Apache are unlikely to be true, not only because you can't believe a word anyone says about themselves in Bleach, but because of the manner in which he spoke to the chimera. Mocking Alan's fighting spirit as 'not knowing when to quit' totally contradicts praising Halibels' Fraccion for the same behaviour.

Secondly, he attempted to regain the face he believed he lost in misjudging Alan by perfectly estimating the power level of Halibel's remaining Fraccion. You could see it as compensating for coming in at two over par by hitting a hole in one, a precisely judged powerplay intended to disable them but keep them alive. It's not only a far more difficult feat than merely killing them, it's also proving that he is capable of accomplishing that which he screwed up against their pet. Finally, this tactic has the standard secondary gain of dismissing the opponent as not being a threat. Yamamoto left them alive, which is almost invariably a gesture of contempt.

There's another possible reason for his decision to spare Halibel's Fraccion. Members of a squad tend to behave in a manner similar to their leader (Kenpachi's 11th or Unohana's 4th are good examples). If Sun Sun, Mila Rose and Apache went nuts as a result of their pet's death then he might be anticipating that Halibel will react in the same way to her Fraccion's death. Yamamoto may doubt the 10th Squad Captain's ability to defeat his opponent (if the Fraccion are that powerful, what must their master be like?), and so he may have been trying to save Hitsugaya's life without causing him the humiliation of taking over against Espada #3. Halibel went all out when she saw her subordinates defeated, and so if this was his train of thought then he was probably exactly right to flatter them and spare their lives in the hope that Halibel might extend the same treatment to her enemy.

On the subject of Halibel, I both love the design of her concealed face and think it's Exhibit 3,971 for Bleach as ultimately being pretty sexist (HEAVYMETALHRGIGERBONETITSGO!!1!ICHI!). Yes, it has strong female characters. Yes, it subverts many expectations and in doing so offers a critique of the medium. But it never truly transcends the sexism of most boys own adventure stories/comics/shonen archetypes, it just plays with them a little in some interesting ways. It has some way to go before it can even be seen on a par with a series like Gunbuster, the earliest example I've encountered of a fully-fledged sexist critique of sexism in anime (ie: an analysis that works by admitting – indeed, revelling in – its own culpability). However, it meets all the criteria for the Hip Hop Defense, ie; no more misogynist than Johnny Cash, Nick Cave, Bob Dylan etc… Bleach is only likely to be singled out as especially sexist by someone with barely any experience of comics or movies from any culture. It fits right in as an example of what you might expect, it's just a particularly complex, well written and interesting example.

So, exactly how exciting was #339? VERY EXCITING, that's how exciting it was. It took longer than expected, but now that the Fraccion are out of the way we're finally cutting back to our hero, who has been almost entirely passive in the story for around eighteen months since he fought Grimmjow Jaegerjacques. Predictions? A few chapters of fighting and then some interesting answers? Hope so innit!
 
 
Feverfew
14:55 / 23.12.08
A very interesting analysis of Yamamoto's fight there - I hadn't considered the respect angle, and now you've brought it up, it's making me think about all of the major fights previous to it, which is good, so... Thanks!
 
 
Seth
23:39 / 23.12.08
One non-moment that I've neglected to mention so far is that there wasn't even the slightest glimpse of Gin feeling any remorse over Matsumoto's horrific injury. Although that scene might still come later it's chilling for its absence right now. He showed more of a reaction for Kira... or maybe he's just more inclined towards maintaining his poker face for someone who was supposed to be close to him.
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
17:05 / 30.12.08
#340: So, it's Rukia versus the amazing tree-man - with a slender chance that she'll get through one major fight in her life without being horribly impaled - Renji and Chad are mowing down Exequias with gusto, Ichigo's about to show Ulquiorra the power of friendship, and Orihime's pregnant with Aizen's Arrancar baby.

So I made that last bit up. But it does seem like the long-gathering clouds of foreshadowing over just what has been done to Inoue during her long kidnapping are about to break, and the revelations involved might just turn events in Ulquiorra's favour. What do you think?
 
 
Triplets
16:27 / 02.01.09
a slender chance that she'll get through one major fight in her life without being horribly impaled

It's Rukia. Fighting a man made out of pointy branches. I mean honestly.

Orihime's Arrancar babby would, actually, lead in nicely into examining hot hot lovin/interbreeding between humans and ghosts, which could answer the question of Ichigo's (seemingly) ghost-blooded heritage.

Random aside, was it just me or was Alan far creepier when it seemed like he was just sprouting random body parts as and when he needed to? He was reaching proppah body horror for a moment.
 
 
Seth
11:41 / 03.01.09
…with a slender chance that she'll get through one major fight in her life without being horribly impaled…

Aren't we talking about a character who has only had one major fight throughout the entire history of the comic?

Orihime's pregnant with Aizen's Arrancar baby.

Orihime's Arrancar babby would, actually, lead in nicely into examining hot hot lovin/interbreeding between humans and ghosts, which could answer the question of Ichigo's (seemingly) ghost-blooded heritage.


I'm wondering whether it's something she's eaten. What with Glottoneria, the manner in which Fornicaras is released, Ashisogi Jizō's gross Espada supper, Dondo Chakka's belly bugs, Nel's double-cero mechanism, the Menos-to-Vasto Lorde evolution path and Ulquiorra's threat of force-feeding we've been shown a conspicuous amount of thematic material devoted to attaining/displaying/releasing power through the act of chowing down since the story arrived in Hueco Mundo (although you'd expect Hollows to epitomise an eat-or-be-eaten philosophy). That might explain how she's been altered without seeming to know about it (although she hasn't objected to Ulquiorra and Grimmjow's insinuations… it seems a stretch to say she's out of earshot). In my crazier need-to-kill-three-speculative-potential-birds-with-one-stone moments I'd wonder whether she's been unwittingly munching on Espada #10... which could also offer an explanation for how she seems to be included in Aaroniero Arruruerie's Cognition Synchronisation (which so far has been the only semi-corroboration of Ulquiorra's claims – "That girl is already one of us" – besides her taking to wearing Arrancar whites). But no, that's far too bonkers a theory… I'd personally be surprised if Bleach went the full-on rape/pregnancy route with a main character, Nemu notwithstanding. That was vile enough as it was and came far too close to being a deal-breaker (calling her a creepy mad-scientist creation is not a get-out-of-jail-free card). Plus this is shonen (we're all pervy teenage boys, actual sex is horrid) so I doubt we'll get the ghost/human/fake body birds'n'bees's chat from Poppa Kubo.

It's difficult to speculate on what might be going on inside Orihime. What Aizen says of himself can never be trusted and he's usually depicted by those who seem 'close' to him as being ambivalent about his own strategies (Gin usually talks to him as if this were true, Ulquiorra says in #249: "For Aizen-sama this kind of thing is a game. If she's trapped, good. If she isn't that's fine too."). The only thing I'm relatively sure of is that it must have something to do with her plan to reject the Hougyoku out of existence. I think most of us are 100% certain that Aizen put that idea in her head, and I suspect that his motivation wasn't just another one of his psychological traps (ie: to keep her in Las Noches long enough to divide the enemy). I wondered briefly whether he'd found some way of reversing the Rikka's sphere of influence a la Superman II in order to resurrect the dead Espada, which I dismissed because the thought of having to kill Szayel a second time was kinda soul destroying (and I prefer the idea that he doesn't care about his Arrancar and/or wants them destroyed/whittled down to just the most loyal/obedient).

One odd detail is that Aizen claimed to need the Hougyoku in order to create the King's Key. It seems strange that one of Urahara Kisuke's inventions is a prerequisite for making a replacement key given that he made it a mere one hundred years ago. The way Yamamoto et al were talking it seemed as though that Aizen had researched a method dating back to antiquity. And why would the Hougyoku's very specific functionality be necessary anyway? Either Aizen was lying to Orihime, or the Hougyoku can do more than we realise, or there is something a little Arrancar/Vaizard to the King and his realm. If he was telling the truth then the Hougyoku will almost certainly be with him in Fakekura, which would seem to make Orihime's plan a narrative dead end/red herring. Or perhaps she's already tried this gambit off-panel and we'll be treated to it in flashback…

Too many red herrings and potential lies. Speculation rendered usesless. :-(

Random aside, was it just me or was Alan far creepier when it seemed like he was just sprouting random body parts as and when he needed to? He was reaching proppah body horror for a moment.

Much creepier than when he was just a bodybuilder wearing a Brian May wig, yeah.
 
 
Seth
11:18 / 12.01.09
Do we want to take this discussion elsewhere?

It looks increasingly likely that Barbelith may not be around much longer. There are people in the Policy forum petitioning to get it closed down. I've got about enoguh time in my life to conduct an online discussion on something I enjoy, but not not really to engage with board politics or try to change anyone's mind.

Ultimately the decision to close Barbelith would be made by made by Tom Coates. He hasn't expressed much of an interest in this place, and I wouldn't be surprised if one day he just decided to turn it off. We may not even have this place available as an archive. It could happen at any point and we may not get prior warning. That possibility becomes exponentially more likely with petitions like the one in the Policy at the moment.

I've enjoyed all the anime threads immensely and have quite an ongoing investment in the Bleach threads in particular (both of which I've saved on my hard drive).

I do not want that enjoyment to be contingent on a disinterested board-owner, in much the same way as I don't think anyone else's decision to leave Barbelith should be contingent on that board-owner choosing to shut it down.

If you want to continue these discussions somewhere other than Barbelith then please send me a PM with your email address or contact me at seth dot cooke at virgin dot net. I won't be posting in this thread any more and will resume the discussion elsewhere (at the moment it's looking likely that it'll be an invite only mailing list of some sort, with potential to grow into something else if there's interest).

Contact me if you would be interested in participating in a discussion of anime and or/theory-Bleaching elsewhere.
 
  

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