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The Barbelith Temple Presents: Vol 1

 
  

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Haloquin
17:36 / 19.11.07
I know this is a thought that adds more work to the book, but what kind of ethical considerations have been looked at in terms of types of paper used, the gloss on the cover etc?

Do we, as a group, want to take these into consideration? Is it worth the extra costs? Can we agree on which issues to focus on? (Not sure how far the range goes when publishing...)

If it hasn't been looked at before I'm willing to scout out information.

Dreamflesh was produced with environmental ethics in mind, altough I don't think that was print-on-demand.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:24 / 20.11.07
It crossed my mind to suggest looking at other printing options for this beyond print-on-demand. I'm not sure what people's thoughts are on that?
 
 
*
01:22 / 21.11.07
Um, well, on first glance I'd have to say yes, sustainable for sure. Our ideas aren't so great—well, mine aren't, anyway—that they're worth getting out there at the cost of contributing to more environmental devastation. On the other hand... well, I don't expect it to be a big run. We could do e-book only.

Here's a list, of sorts.
 
 
Katherine
06:57 / 21.11.07
I thought we were considering e-book and printed book?

I don't read e-books because most of my reading time is on the bus/tube or at a bus-stop. We will be cutting down on potential audience for the book in my opinion, after all there are plenty of self published books in paper (as it were) which do sell well. I'm not to sure that the e-book market is so strong in this field.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:12 / 22.11.07
I think there's three main options for publishing this:

1. Print-on-demand through something like Lulu or equivalent. Definitely has its advantages, such as no initial outlay from the pool of contributors to finance publication. Easiest option.

2. Shopping the finished manuscript around various tiny occult publishers who may be interested in putting something like this out. No initial outlay from contributors, and being published by a third party comes with a bit more vague cachet than going the print-on-demand route, but less and less these days. Disadvantages could include losing some control over the content and presentation, but not necessarily. Advantages could include better distribution channels than print-on-demand.

3. Self-publishing a small run ourselves in a similar manner to journals such as Dreamflesh. Advantages are total control over everything, including ethical printing considerations. Most obvious disadvantage is that this will require financial contributions from contributors to pay for it. It's possible that we will break even, but nobody should really expect to see their money back from a small press venture like this. Distribution is also placed entirely in the hands of those involved, and therefore more work for everyone in getting this publication seen and making sure its widely available.

My feeling is that I'd like to casually explore options 2 and 3 once the manuscript starts to come together a bit more. I can think of a couple of small publishers off the top of my head that it would be worth at least a conversation with, and I think the self-publishing option might be worth exploring in some more detail as well. I was chatting to Gyrus (who does Dreamflesh) the other week about this project and he said he'd be happy to give me some advice on the specifics of DIY publishing if we want to go that route when the time comes. I think it's worth looking into the possibilities of all of these things before we decide to opt for print on demand, which is always there as a fall-back if other approaches seem financially untenable or too labour intensive.

Thoughts?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:17 / 22.11.07
I'm not averse to doing this as an e-book in addition to having a printed version, but there should definitely be a printed version. We're not exactly going to be laying waste to too many forests with the size of the print run that we will be putting out here, and if you literally don't think your submissions are worth the paper they will be printed on, then why did you write and submit them in the first place?
 
 
Katherine
13:43 / 22.11.07
Option two sounds the best to me although three has a lot of merit too. I don't mind a e-book but I know I would never read it in that format, most pdf's I have are printed out so I can read them and usually I find if I do re-read it I will buy the book so environmentally sound they aren't, at least in my case.

Whilst I know I haven't written Shakespeare I am proud that I have got something worth reading onto paper.
 
 
Quantum
15:09 / 22.11.07
I like option 1. Then we can print them off and pimp them round shops if necessary, we don't get the financial issues, and I don't think the extra clout of a third party publisher is going to make too much difference. I like the option of an ebook as well.

Now, about marketing. Certainly schlepping copies around the occult bookshop scene is nice, and I'm sure we can get four or five outlets to stock a few copies no problem (e.g. Treadwells) but that's a labour intensive way of going about it.
Then there's the contributors and friends and family, there's a few dozen copies probably.
But then what?

Well, I'm glad you asked. I will soon (December I think) have the capability to send bulk emails for free from a professional service. I'd like to create a fabulous looking email with a link to the publishing site (e.g. Lulu) and then send it out to all the bookshops in the UK and US and maybe the rest of the world too, so hopefully if they're interested they can just click a link and order a copy or ten. It would also have a contact email (CAG address maybe) for enquiries, and would supplement the in-person sales nicely.
The only thing I don't have is email addresses of likely shops. I can buy a thousand for £70, or if we're all willing to do a bit of researching we can get them free, what do you think?

On top of that, why don't we set up a website for the project? That's a very cheap way of getting it out there, and we can make it sexy with sample art and content, advertise it on other internet sites maybe (like, here) maybe make a facebook and myspace site as well, and hope word of mouth and viral marketing takes off.

Any other ideas for selling our baby?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
15:22 / 22.11.07
I'm sure we can get four or five outlets to stock a few copies no problem

The problem with print-on-demand publishing is that I believe many bookshops will not stock stuff produced through businesses such as Lulu for various arcane reasons. I think it has a lot to do with the higher wholesale price. I know this is the case with Treadwells, who told me they would love to stock a lot of the print-on-demand occult books that have come out recently but would be unable to do so without selling them for a cover price of about £40. It seems that you can't have your cake and eat it, and that going the print-on-demand route really does limit your options for distribution.
 
 
Haloquin
15:23 / 22.11.07
I would be opposed to not printing this in some format, for reasons mentioned above (reaching a wider audience, that its worth being printed etc). Although I would prefer that this kept environmental concerns in mind. If Gyrus is willing to give advice that'd be great to hear.

If we were to send it to a publisher, which country would we send it to? To self-publish, can everyone afford to put in a chunk of the start-up costs expecting not to get it covered? What would we do with any profits made? And would any individual be willing to take responsibility for holding the bank account details etc? I'm not sure how this would work practically, though I'm the first to admit I don't have any experience with it!

Something like Lulu does have the option to pay cost-price (or nearly, I'm sure they make some money on it) which means we don't have to worry about dealing with money, and we all know where to get a copy, there are no issues with minimum print runs, and it would be next to immediate, whereas I assume other paths can take months/years.

On the other hand... I can't find anything on their site about ecological options.

Does anyone know of a print-on-demand site that does have environmental options?

I'm looking through the list of publishers Zippy posted, but its not telling me too much I, personally, know how to use I'm afraid.
 
 
Haloquin
15:31 / 22.11.07
Sorry, cross-posted (with about 3 other posts)

Perhaps option 2 would be best... if we want it in bookshops (and that'd be nice) then this sounds like its the best (only?) option.

I do like the idea of having a website for it, and its easy enough to get a free site. I have no real web-fu but I'm happy to put together something pretty (if basic)... though there are probably people much better suited to it than me!

And then we can choose to focus on ecological publishers first. If all else fails we always have the p-o-d option to fall back on.

(Me-thinks I might be getting ahead of myself and rambling slightly, if so, I apologise)
 
 
Quantum
15:42 / 22.11.07
many bookshops will not stock stuff produced through businesses such as Lulu for various arcane reasons.

Ah. In which case I prefer 2) then if that fails 3), I want the book in shops at a reasonable price.
 
 
*
05:18 / 23.11.07
if you literally don't think your submissions are worth the paper they will be printed on

It depends what kind of paper it'll be printed on. Recycled, yeah, absolutely. 100% virgin old growth—not in my case. But it was definitely worth thinking of.

I'd love to have a print run, especially if we can get a small third-party press involved.
 
 
Haloquin
14:22 / 12.12.07
How is this going at the mo?
 
 
Quantum
15:17 / 12.12.07
Good but a bit slow, there will be updates soon and general chivvying.
 
 
Olulabelle
20:06 / 14.12.07
And there was some talk of another Art vote. Will that happen soon do you think?
 
 
cerca_trova
17:58 / 24.12.07
Just wondering where I can see the art being voted on? I heard I was up there, so I'm just curious.
 
 
Seth
02:08 / 23.01.08
How's this going?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:18 / 23.01.08
It's momentarily stalled, largely because I've been absolutely snowed under with other life stuff and I've had to put it on hold for a couple of months until I get things more under control. I suspect the other people involved in the editorial side might have similar flimsy sob stories to mine. It will get done though. Just give me a bit of time to clear my other workload and I'll plough some more energy into it and get things moving again.
 
 
Quantum
11:56 / 23.01.08
My excuse also involves my home internet connection giving up the ghost which rather slows things down. Things are slooowly inching on though, there will be another art vote and a flurry of general catching up and loose end tying in the next month or two.
If you are an edit volunteer expect an email this week or next, I'm going to verify people are still willing and able to do stuff. There may be a group catchup email from the CAG address soon to all concerned, keep an eye open.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:03 / 29.01.08
OK, I want to get this moving again. Just emailed CAG members and asked to read any submitted articles that I haven't seen yet. If you have sent us something, but you haven't yet had any feedback from CAG or an email from me, post here and let us know so you don't slip through the cracks. I'm hoping to read anything I haven't seen yet over the next few weeks and push the whole thing through to copyeditors and production.
 
 
Haloquin
12:17 / 21.02.08
Is there anything I can do to help? I wasn't online regularly when this first started so I ducked out of proofing etc., but I've been back online for a while now (and am up to date with my coursework) so I have time I can divert to this project, if that would help ease the workload?

I don't have tonnes of time or mad-proofing-skillz, but I have a dictionary and enthusiasm!
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
15:15 / 21.02.08
From CAG perspective, all of the articles have been approved and passed to copyeditors/production, aside from El Directo's and Papess's articles which required a few revisions. I gave a deadline of 2-3 weeks, about 2 weeks ago. If these revisions could be made and final edits submitted to CAG by the end of February that would be great.

The main production issue that I can see at the moment though, is that I have lost track of where the various completed and accepted articles are in the production pipeline. Quantum and XK have both suggested that they have this information and would be able to produce a spreadsheet showing at which stage each of the articles are at, but I haven't received this yet.

What I need to move this forward is:

1. Spreadsheet showing where all of the features are in the production pipeline.
2. A list of everyone who still wants to be involved in the copyediting and layout roles of this project.
3. Contact details for and regular updates from whoever is managing the copyediting and layout processes.
4. Assurance that all copyeditors are working from the same style guide.
5. Technical information on what the finished pages are being produced in (i.e, Quark, Indesign, etc)

If it transpires that people originally on-board for copyediting and proofreading have now dropped off the map, and we are under-resourced to turn this around, then we may need a new recruitment drive for these roles. Copyediting shouldn't be too onerous, as anything that has passed through me should have already been subedited for basic typos and grammaticals, so those roles should mostly be about stylistic consistency.

Design and layout is something I'm a bit more troubled by, as I haven't really had any contact with whoever is dealing with this important stage, and I'm not sure what the score is. If someone is indeed still taking responsibility for this side of the production, please speak up here, because we're going to need to be in regular contact as this moves forward out of the commissioning/editing process and into the layout/proofing stage.

In an absolute worst case scenario, I could lay the thing out myself on Indesign, but I'd really, really, really prefer not to have to do that.

Sorry this project is taking so long to come to fruition - I've been a bit snowed under with other stuff and I'm having to balance it alongside various other projects.
 
 
electric monk
16:31 / 21.02.08
Design and layout is something I'm a bit more troubled by, as I haven't really had any contact with whoever is dealing with this important stage, and I'm not sure what the score is. If someone is indeed still taking responsibility for this side of the production, please speak up here, because we're going to need to be in regular contact as this moves forward out of the commissioning/editing process and into the layout/proofing stage.

That would be my fault, I'm afraid. I thought my contact info got passed along to you and assumed I'd be contacted once things got rolling again and I was needed. I should have spoken up earlier and asked why I hadn't heard from anyone. My RL has been pretty busy tho, so...

Anyway, to let you know where we stand as far as Team Layout: The team consists of me, Papess, and MattShepherd. I haven't talked to either of them about this lately, so I can't guarantee they're both still on-board. I know that Papess and I are using InDesign, while MattS is using Pagemaker (6 or 6.5).

Regarding the articles themselves: I don't have the exact stats in front of me, but checking back over emails, it looks like Team Layout has had three of the articles go through our part of the pipeline. These would be GL's article, TtS's article, and the Yantra article (which I think was Rex Feral's). All of these articles had gone back to CAG as of the end of September. When I get a moment today, I'll check over my files and get you a more accurate layout production status list.

And I'll PM my email addy to you.

If we are looking at a worst-case scenario, I'm willing to lay out the book myself. I won't sit here and pretend the process wouldn't be EXCEEDINGLY SLOW, but y'know. If we gotta, we gotta.
 
 
Haloquin
17:19 / 21.02.08
Ok.

If there are any articles that I can help copyedit either email me a copy or pm me for my email address (if you don't have it). If anyone sends me anything to look over, please let me know briefly exactly what I'm supposed to look for/do with it.

Good luck!
 
 
Sekhmet
17:49 / 21.02.08
I'm still up for copyediting - which I am now doing on a professional basis, but of course for this project I will work pro bono. (*waves red pencil grandly*)
 
 
grant
18:23 / 21.02.08
I've done the copyediting on things so far. If I recall, I've been using AP style, American spellings.
 
 
Sekhmet
22:28 / 21.02.08
American spellings, really? Must we? I know we'd like all the articles to hang together stylistically, but I'd have argued for stetting British/American spelling differences...
 
 
Haloquin
19:36 / 22.02.08
Urgh.

Yeah, I'd echo Sekhmet... having the American spellings in American written pieces, and English spellings in English written pieces I don't think is too bad stylisticaly... but that might just be because I've never seen it.

Besides, if we're going to choose one I'd vote for English! We spoke it first! (Actually I'd personally go for English because I am English and find the American spellings uglier... even though I get confused and end up using them half the time, but I accept that American spellings might be more appropriate.)

Which country is the market likely to be bigger in? Which version of spellings were more articles submitted in? Presumably it would be best to reflect a) the majority of writers' spelling orientation, and b) the spelling the people who are most likely to read it are used to?

Question, which spelling do other countries use? Does it vary? Or do most countries favour one over the other when learning English? (Mostly just curious).

This isn't a big issue for me, to be honest... just thinking. I assume its also important to bear in mind what articles have been edited into already, if there is a majority one way or the other, or if there are an roughly equal number of both, then it seems potentially silly to run around trying to change everything now.
 
 
Papess
00:37 / 23.02.08
Canada uses British English.
 
 
Olulabelle
13:32 / 23.02.08
I personally think we should use British English, but that is clearly because I am British.

Haloquin's point about which market will see more copies is valuable. What's the norm for combinations of articles from many countries?

What happened in Dreamflesh?
 
 
Haloquin
15:22 / 23.02.08
I can't find my copy of Dreamflesh so I can't check. I looked at the webpage and its all based in the UK, but I don't know about spellings.

I did have another thought though (pesky thinking); is it worth setting up a webpage or a blog for the Temple Presents project? We kinda need to start looking at advertising. Do we have enough to put on a webpage? Would a blog be enough?

Its easy enough to start a blog that can have updates and information on it, or to pick a free webbuilder. Alternatively, if anyone wants to donate financially, we could pay for a proper domain.

Some Options
Freewebs - Free websites - easy to build but limited in design

Wordpress - Which the Dreamflesh Webpage is built on, pretty but costs for anything more than just a blog

Angelfire - you can do quite a bit with this using html, but it ends up with complicated names, you can pay for a front page to redirect to the free webpage though.

Blogspot- Basic blog facility. Options for themes, easy to do and free, but limited to blog-style.

Or we could have a combination. Either do a blog that links to a webpage (and vice-versa) or somethign like the freewebs site has options to have a blogstyle news page, so you could have updates on the first page with links to other pages with different information - like an articles list, contact information, a space for information about where/how to buy, links to information and places to further research topic in the journal (perhaps)... etc.
 
 
*
16:01 / 23.02.08
If I recall correctly I wrote mine with American spellings on the assumption that it would be foolish and presumptuous to try to look English in my writing.

Or I wrote it with English spellings on the assumption that it would be arrogant not to go along with the preferences of the majority.

Editorial fiat in this regard is fine with me. I have no attachment to American spellings.
 
 
grant
22:38 / 24.02.08
Oh, you troglodytes with your "aluminium" and "boots" and "defence" and punctuation outside the quote marks.

Piffle.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:38 / 25.02.08
I don't like the idea of having inconsistent US/UK style running throughout the book. I think it needs to be either one or the other. It's a bit weird for it to be in US style, since I'd say that 90% of contributors are from the UK and it will almost certainly be published (at least initially) in the UK.

In terms of marketing, I think there's actually a strong argument for rebranding this anthology "Liminal Nation vol. 1" and tying it in with the launch of the new website.
 
  

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