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Torchwood- Season One Discussion (As It Happens) SPOILERS

  
  

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Whisky Priestess
12:31 / 02.01.07
Re: Pret-a-Bilis - isn't Abaddon referred to by him as the Eater of Souls, or something? Or am I making that up?
 
 
jebni
14:08 / 02.01.07
Bilis = Iblis. That is, the devil. Thus, Bilis Manger = Devil feeder.
 
 
Lama glama
14:19 / 02.01.07
"Captain Jack Harkness" was the superior episode, but both had lots of nice character moments. I cringed when Jack started gurning at The Beast Jr., but I suppose there isn't a lot of source material to draw from when trying to act as if your lifeforce is being drained by an alien demon summoned by some guy you suspect is the Valeyard for most of the episode.

Cath Tregenna's episode was basically an inversion of her previous plot, but emotional pieces like that seem to suit her, so she should keep writing them. In fact, I'd prefer if she were head writer, but I don't see Chibnall being removed from the show any time soon. Next season, we'll hopefully see less of an Owen-Centric show and perhaps focus on the marginally more interesting Ianto and Toshiko.

I have a few quibbles about Bilis Manger. Why did he have a file about Torchwood in his dance-hall? Could he be a former Torchwood agent? The second head-scratcher..why did he have a vital piece of the rift machine hidden away in his hideout? Didn't he want the Rift to open so Abadon could come through?
 
 
Mon Oncle Ignatius
15:03 / 02.01.07
Why did he have a file about Torchwood in his dance-hall? Could he be a former Torchwood agent?

Possibly - but he was obviously keeping tabs on them all since he set them up for the fall.

The second head-scratcher..why did he have a vital piece of the rift machine hidden away in his hideout? Didn't he want the Rift to open so Abadon could come through?

So the Torchwood gang would find it there and restore the Rift machine, cmpleting his cunning plan. Of course, he could have just sent it to them recorded delivery too.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:19 / 02.01.07
Bilis is a name name, as well - there was a tropical storm named Bilis.

Basically, I liked almost everything about these two episodes apart from the last quarter of an hour or so - I wanted something scarier than a giant CGI monster, even if it was a Doctor Who tie-in. It felt a bit of a let-down in the context of the darkness at the edge of etc - I sort of hope it turns out that we're wrong to assume that it was, and that the arc extends to series two. My coreligionist observed that it would have been better if Bilis himself had walked down the street, with people dying all around him, and I think I agree - the appearance of Abaddon seemed very sudden (one mention by Ianto earlier, who incidentally was once again quite right to be doing the research and Owen wrong to skip over it), and besides, Bilis was really creepy - much scarier than another Games Workshop demon. Making him an acolyte rather defanged him. Likewise, you had to fill in the blanks a little - it was all just about there, but very rushed - on what Abaddon was, the connection with the Satan Pit, what he was doing under Cardiff (having seen Buffy obviously a big help here), why Abaddon heard Captain Jack shouting (presumably because Jack was lit up with tasty life, but again that's a bit fanwanky)... and the draining effect looked a bit like the effect was to be added later - lots of writhing and some red spots. And then just too many finales - Captain Jack dies, Captain Jack comes back to life, Captain Jack disappears in the Tardis - in not very much narrative space. Ultimately, I'd rather have seen more space dedicated to one - you could have had, for example, the Captain falling to the ground, Gwen blinded by the blast of exploding beastie, Tardis sound, Gwen gets to ground zero, no Captain Jack. That would also have saved us the "I forgive you" Owen bit - especially since, regardless of forgiving him for shooting Jack in the head, he and the others also blew up Torchwood and were responsible for civilian deaths on a scale presumably remarkable even for Torchwood.
 
 
Evil Scientist
16:38 / 02.01.07
and were responsible for civilian deaths on a scale presumably remarkable even for Torchwood.

I'd guess that the people killed by Abaddon were restored to life for no apparent reason like Rhys was.
 
 
Mon Oncle Ignatius
17:25 / 02.01.07
I wanted something scarier than a giant CGI monster, even if it was a Doctor Who tie-in.

Oh, it would have been nice, wouldn't it? I'd only heard from someone's reports of the trailer that there was to be a giant goat stamping on Cardiff - not the bit about a goat-horned demon. So I was a bit disappointed to see yet another generic roaring monster from the Hell that is computer generated, and could only join my fellow viewer in laughing at the silliness of it all. Then it was only possible to attempt to redeem the naffness by saying "remember, it's a Dr. Who spinoff", rather unconvincingly. Just like the end-of-level boss really.

Something coming out of the Darkness hinted at matters way more Lovecraftian than we got. Can we please drop the tentacled/insectoid/demonic crowd-pleasers from fantasy TV sometime, oh mighty producers who hook us and reel us in with what is still ultimately shoddy sciffy?

I agree that Bilis Manger was very, very creepy indeed, and his knifing of Rhys was suitably unpleasant. Do we think he will return (I've forgotten in all the fallout if he died along with much of Cardiff's population)?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
17:27 / 02.01.07
I was reasonably sure we were going to get something like: Captain Jack gets literally eaten/swallowed by the monster in order to kill it, or Jack gets sucked into the Rift in order to close it - i.e. so he ends up missing, presumed dead. Maybe the former would have been too similar to another recent cliffhanger concerning a Captain Jack.

So I was glad we got a slightly different ending to that but a bit annoyed by the double resurrection. What I would have liked best would have been something like - Gwen leaves the morgue just for a moment, hears the Tardis noise, and when she comes running back in, the tomb is empty, the sheets pulled back, the stone rolled aside...

As for Barrowman's gurning and screaming as he got his lifeforce ripped out: bear in mind that the benchmark for acting for anyone on this show or its companion is Davey Rubberface HOOOOMANS! Tennant, the most popular Doctor Who of all.
 
 
Mon Oncle Ignatius
17:27 / 02.01.07
I'd guess that the people killed by Abaddon were restored to life for no apparent reason like Rhys was.

I was wondering that too - but wasn't it opening the Rift which restored Rhys, and then Abaddon went on the rampage? Sorry if my memory is failing me, but I had to walk the dog urgently just as the Rift opened, so missed key chunks of the action.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
20:34 / 02.01.07
Seeing as there often seemed to be no pressure on the writers to take into consideration events that happened in earlier episodes of the show, I think that expecting them to have watched episodes of Doctor Who is too much, therefore I don't think Abbadon is supposed to be anything to do with Satan from The Satan Pit.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
21:15 / 02.01.07
Except that we are told in a line of dialogue that he does. It's not the writers who have the problem here.
 
 
Evil Scientist
21:28 / 02.01.07
I was wondering that too - but wasn't it opening the Rift which restored Rhys, and then Abaddon went on the rampage? Sorry if my memory is failing me, but I had to walk the dog urgently just as the Rift opened, so missed key chunks of the action.

Hey, you're probably fifty-two steps beyond the writers when it comes to linear plotlines.

Still, if they had been responsible for all that death I'd expect the first episode of Season 2 (god help us) to involve UNIT rolling tanks towards the Hub to take it over.

Bilis was rather effective, hopefully they'll keep him on as a big bad for Season 2 (god help us!). His timejumps were nicely done, I've been getting a little sick of the "camera pans to other person and pans back to find them gone" school of teleportation.
 
 
Lama glama
21:34 / 02.01.07
Except that we are told in a line of dialogue that he does. It's not the writers who have the problem here.

Yep. Bilis calls him the son of the great Beast, or something close enough to that. Bilis was admittedly quite creepy, in the way that he was a slightly more sinister version of "Light" from the Seventh Doctor serial, Ghost Light.

I suspect that Bilis will return at least once more. Even though Abadon is dead, he could still cause quite a lot of trouble for the Torchwood team, considering that he apparently has the ability to move through time and space without a TARDIS.

There are some bits and pieces about Bilis here.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
00:17 / 03.01.07
So it's just me (and maybe Fly) who thought that rocked then? Ah well.

Incidentally...

I fear Buffy and Angel may have spoiled me for both apocalypses and season finales.

Buffy and Angel? Fuck, much as I loved those shows, Millennium season two had an ending and an apocalypse a million times better than they could ever have dreamed of. Which was kind of why season three was a bit rubbish, really.
 
 
Lama glama
00:44 / 03.01.07
So it's just me (and maybe Fly) who thought that rocked then? Ah well.

Well, I thought it rocked. It had a big grey demon roaring all over Cardiff and had Owen being shot (even if it was non fatal). What's not to like? I've grown to like Torchwood quite a bit, and once you get over the fact that it's every bit as silly as its parent show, you can accept it for what it is.

There are of course flaws with the show (and last night's episodes too), but they could be dealt with by trimming back some of the weaker cast member's screen time and possibly promoting Cath Tregenna to head-writer.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
01:01 / 03.01.07
I think it would have rocked more if it had been about fifteen minutes longer... which possibly means I wanted more rock.

Further, not one but two giant man-snogs. Excellent. And Owen gets shot.
 
 
Billuccho!
03:54 / 03.01.07
"Captain Jack Harkness" was the better episode because it had tons of focus on Jack and Tosh, the best two characters on the damn show. The little love story with the other Captain Jack seemed really rushed, and the big dance scene and kiss with romantic musical flourish and everything fading away except for saluting Real!Jack and everything was way too over the top and forced.

"End of Days" was all over the place. I totally called Rhys being doomed, but then he had to go and come back to life. I assumed he'd then get killed AGAIN, in the apartment, like in the flashforward, but I guess not. Well, cool, I like the character and everything. He just gets shat upon constantly.

The giant monster and the life sucking and the magical kiss and the hugs-- man, that was really rushed. There's a lot of askew plot points in this one. Nice to hear the Tardis, but it was tacked on to an already busy conclusion.

Bilis was an intriguing villain, and we'll probably see more of him. Was that the clock from Girl in the Fireplace in his shop?
 
 
Twice
06:12 / 03.01.07
I thought RealJack's reported death a little intriguing - he wasn't described as having been shot down, was he? - just..."silence"...and I was left wondering whether there was something more to it.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:15 / 03.01.07
Lovelorn suicide? Alien abduction? The Rift? I suppose those are all possibilities, although I don't think anything was signposted. Quite a good actor (and oddly Will Young-ish to these eyes) - wouldn't mind seeing him again.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
07:24 / 03.01.07
Our Lady has a Question I don't think Abbadon is supposed to be anything to do with Satan from The Satan Pit.

You Know My Callsign Except that we are told in a line of dialogue that he does. It's not the writers who have the problem here.

Different strokes for different folks I guess. I thought Bilis was quoting the bible or apocrapha, so his beast wouldn't necessarily be The Beast from 'Satan Pit', after all there's also the Daemons as well, plus apart from the horns and height Torchwood's devil looks different to Who-devil, different colour, he has a muzzle where as old Red had a more human face, different horns etc, plus Torch-devil sucks life from people via his shadow and projects images where as Who-devil posesses them or reads their mind.

But hey, I'm not denying it's at all possible, it's just vague enough it could be read either way.
 
 
Twice
07:43 / 03.01.07
I was thinking more darkly of shameful suicide. Then again, I like the rift idea. Maybe even now he's dancing with Glen Miller, and it does leave the possibility of a comeback.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
07:45 / 03.01.07
Captain Jack Harkness (Original Version) reminded me of Ray Liotta, actually - it was the eyelashes. Much as I liked the visual image of the two Jacks dancing, though, I found it completely unbelievable in the context of a WWII dance-hall - if people object to others dancing with "Japs" they're sure as hell going to start a ruck if a couple of "queers" step onto the floor.

I just didn't believe they'd get to do their slow-dance unmolested, let alone have a big old snog right there in the middle of everyone. I didn't even think it could be put down to respect for Liotta Jack or an all-embracing love of life/loathing of mortality. Let's not forget that nobody but Barrowman Jack Harkness knows that anyone's getting killed tomorrow, and Liotta Jack constantly brushes off the idea, saying that it's just a training exercise.

I don't know - like I say, I loved it visually (and the idea of getting off with one's twin/double/self is kind of hott too) but I thought there was too much of the RTD head-in-the-clouds "everyone's bisexual now and it's all fine and lovely" attitude that annoys me so much because it posits a society that should be, rather than is (in the context of the show).
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:50 / 03.01.07
I think you can fanwank it a bit and say that by the time they get to kissing, the Rift is open and time for everybody else except the two Jacks seems to have stopped. And when they're dancing at first, I can buy that people are shocked and confused, which we do see, but nobody goes any further than that because of teh Captain's rank* etc.

*Which incidentally doesn't exist in the real RAF and should be Group Captain. God I'm sad.
 
 
Mon Oncle Ignatius
09:04 / 03.01.07
Stoatie: So it's just me (and maybe Fly) who thought that rocked then?

No, I thought it at least rolled, perhaps verging on the rocking occasionally.

Whisky P: I thought there was too much of the RTD head-in-the-clouds "everyone's bisexual now and it's all fine and lovely" attitude that annoys me so much because it posits a society that should be, rather than is (in the context of the show).

The dancefloor scene was both over the top and more than a little unbelievable in the context of the period setting, as observed above. I thought it was also meant to be a queer counterpoint to the heterograppling going on in the basement during the air raid.

But, as The Llama says I've grown to like Torchwood quite a bit, and once you get over the fact that it's every bit as silly as its parent show, you can accept it for what it is. I find myself agreeing with this position, though I should mention that I've not seen much of the new Dr. Who at all.

Torchwood is very much a juvenile space opera with more than a little soap operatic content bolted on - but it is flagging up a few ideas about sexuality and the odd chunk of philosophical pondering, however hamfistedly, which haven't really been done in UK television SF very much at all. The last two episodes helped redeem all the creakiness which had led up to the finale, doing quite a bit to tie the loose ends together. It's by no means perfect, and needs a hell of a lot of work on the continuity and plot holes if they want to improve for the second series, that's certain, but I've actually quite enjoyed its inherent silliness - just like The X-Files and Buffy, which it took a very long time for me to appreciate.

So maybe it's time to borrow the Dr.Who DVDs.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
10:27 / 03.01.07
Totally. But start with the Empty Child and the Doctor Dances though, for Jackness.
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
11:44 / 03.01.07
Much as I liked the visual image of the two Jacks dancing, though, I found it completely unbelievable in the context of a WWII dance-hall - if people object to others dancing with "Japs" they're sure as hell going to start a ruck if a couple of "queers" step onto the floor.

I just didn't believe they'd get to do their slow-dance unmolested, let alone have a big old snog right there in the middle of everyone. I didn't even think it could be put down to respect for Liotta Jack or an all-embracing love of life/loathing of mortality. Let's not forget that nobody but Barrowman Jack Harkness knows that anyone's getting killed tomorrow, and Liotta Jack constantly brushes off the idea, saying that it's just a training exercise.

I don't know - like I say, I loved it visually (and the idea of getting off with one's twin/double/self is kind of hott too) but I thought there was too much of the RTD head-in-the-clouds "everyone's bisexual now and it's all fine and lovely" attitude that annoys me so much because it posits a society that should be, rather than is (in the context of the show).

Absolutely (and again, better put than i could have) - everyone i was watching it with thought that was ridiculous. Only possible "explanation" is that maybe there was some Rift-y timewarping going on and time was actually frozen for everyone but the two Jacks, or something - but that's utterly unsupported, and also just generally shit...

My problem with the Beast wasn't so much the concept as the fact that a) it was just about the shittiest, fakest looking CGI ever seen on television and b) it was "roaring all over Cardiff" for all of about 2 minutes (presumably to attempt, pathetically, to cover up the lack of CGI skills required for any more than that). Which, for a Big Apocalyptic Season Finale, is just ridiculously rushed, and extremely unsatisfying. There should have been both a build-up to the Beast's appearance and a whole lot more of it trashing Cardiff and Torchwood panicking, trying and failing to do anything about it, until Jack's last-ditch attempt to use (presumably) the Time Vortex energy that Rose gave him immortality with (fanwank) against it, despite knowing it would lose his immortality and possibly perma-kill him... as it was, we were just expected to imagine all that...

As for "son of the Beast", that's kind of cool i guess - Beast Snr could have left offspring all over the universe, on every planet he inspired Satan myths on, and perhaps now he's been sucked into a black hole, they'll all wake up...

Does beg the question of who/what was the mother, tho (tho i guess it could be a "Dunwich Horror" type deal)...
 
 
Whisky Priestess
13:18 / 03.01.07
He could have self-spawned or reproduced asexually like ?Zeus? (Haus/Deva batsignal). However, he would still have looked rubbish.

I totally agree about the need for more build-up, more trashing, more general apocalypticness. I've seen series that can string out the Big Bad denouement for several episodes - and do it well. We weren't given time to be afraid of the thing, only to laugh at it. Bilis was much scarier.
 
 
gridley
17:17 / 03.01.07
It would have been better if the beast had been a gigantic version of Bilis himself attacking Cardif. And Jack could have defeated him by climbing up him and untying his monstrous cravat.
 
 
■
20:46 / 03.01.07
Having just gorged on the ending of the TW eps then Sarah Jane Addventures, I know which I preferred. More interesting stuff (though not that original) happens in one hour of a kids programme than a whole series of the edgy adult SF drama. I still reckon Bilis was a good villain, shame he got downsized so quickly.
 
 
Triplets
01:12 / 04.01.07
I didn't mind the finale. I liked it in Ghostbusters.

+ Evil, extradimensional big bad hinted at
+ One particular place is a nexus for bad energy
+ Heroes deal with the villain's acolytes for 95% of the story
+ A scene where someone desperately demands for the reactor NOT to be shut down
+ Shit bureaucracy and shitter security measures about the shutdown
+ Big bad turns into a stompy beast
+ Destroying said beast by firing tons of dangerous energy at it
+ Someone is believed dead right after the it's destroyed

Who ya gonna call?!
 
 
■
06:19 / 04.01.07
Harold Raimis. Maybe he can sue some extra talent into them.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
09:01 / 04.01.07
I don't know what you're talking about, Triplets. Mr. Staypuft was ten times more terrifying than the CGI goat.
 
 
Triplets
11:50 / 04.01.07
True.

I can only wait for the second season where Jack animates the Superlambanana with his vital fluids.
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
18:12 / 04.01.07
I strongly suspect that Jack's not immortal any more. The energy he blasted the Beast with (deliberately, or without conscious control? he'd certainly never shown or mentioned the ability to energy-blast things before) looked like the energy Rose revived him with when she was all TardisPhoenix, and it could well have been the release of all that energy that called the Tardis to his whereabouts... would be a nice irony if he finally finds the Doctor (or rather the Doctor finds him), and therefore the answers he was looking for, as soon as he's an ordinary mortal again...
 
 
Lama glama
18:37 / 04.01.07
I'm still a bit unclear on the answers that Jack is looking for. Are these meta-answers, about life, love and the universe..or simply the question of why the Time Agency wiped two years of his memory?

It would make thematic sense for Jack to be stripped off his immortality now, considering that one of season one's main themes was life and death (or what lies beyond it). Now that question has been answered to some degree (it's not what's beyond that matters, but what you do with your life, life is precious etc.) I assume that there's going to be another big "adult" theme for the next season. It makes sense to have Jack as just another normal human, whose life can just as easily be taken. Hopefully, this will see a resurgence of happy-go-lucky Jack next year, valuing every moment that he has alive. Surely his tenure with the Doctor next year (as long as it doesn't end with being killed by Daleks again) will put even more of a spring in his step.

Of course, I could probably be wrong..I might have missed the message of the season, which could just as easily be "don't die cause there's a big grey goat CGI demon waiting to steal your soul through your chest by using its shadow." Prove me wrong, RTD!
 
  

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