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Rape accusation against Duke lacrosse team

 
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
22:12 / 30.05.06
Also, quit calling me a racist.

I'm quite carefully not, as you would note if you were a more able reader. I am saying that you uncritically accept and repeat racist arguments. If you actually read the Executive Orders, for example, you will discover that it is illegal to give a job to somebody less skilled on the grounds of race.

Regardless of employee skill, yes yes. If a contract is of an ethnic minority, they will be given preference over those of equal skill but more common ethnicity.


Wriggle, wriggle, worm. That's not "regardless of employee skill", is it? It's "in cases of precisely equal skill". You're trying to change your argument, which was blatantly expressed in your first link to right-wing ideology site:

But this is precisely the system demanded by the NAACP. Blacks are specifically targeted for hiring--before any individual actor or writer has even been interviewed for the job, before anyone has assessed the quality of his work, and before anyone has determined whether any particular black person is the best candidate for the position. The message is crystal clear: All these considerations--that is, considerations having to do with individual merit--are irrelevant. The only thing that is supposed to matter is that these writers and producers have dark skin--and will therefore be hired, not because they can do the work but because they "represent" their racial group.

The favouring of unqualified candidates over qualified candidates is not in fact affirmative action according to EO11246. Under the law as written in Executive Orders and interpreted by the courts, anyone benefiting from affirmative action must have relevant and valid job or educational qualifications.

Also, you have now brought up feeling guilty for the actiions of your forefathers. The Executive Orders also exclude action in order to redress historical inequality from the field of Affirmative Action. You ought to read up on this. It will make it look more as if you are not parroting unexamined arguments.
 
 
Korso Jerusalem
22:22 / 30.05.06
The guilt was a separate statement, and affirmative action indeed does not put those of lesser skill into a position, but rather favors those of equal skill who are of a minority.

Equal. You seem to convinced that I'm a completely vapid parrot, repeating orders from the Racist High Command.

Don't try to say you didn't call me racist, anyway. I can quote too:

The only relevance to this thread, of course, is that your attitude to race is fucked up, and to be honest we had that at I for one know loads of casual racists, even people who associate with the "white power" movement.

Way to twist the facts, boyo. Anything else that you didn't say that I should quote?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:30 / 30.05.06
Where did I call you a racist? I said that your attitude to race is fucked up, which it is, and that you should probably spend less time with white power enthusiasts - it would be a good thing for you, I think, to stop knowing them.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:34 / 30.05.06
Affirmative action indeed does not put those of lesser skill into a position, but rather favors those of equal skill who are of a minority.

If that was always your position, which it was not, then you should be quoting Richard Nixon, not the NAACP:

"We would not impose quotas, but would require federal contractors to show 'affirmative action' to meet the goals of increasing minority employment."

That's part of the Philadelphia order. Ask your history teacher. However, this was not what you meant, and you are wriggling. I suggest that you go away, read a bit and then start your own thread.
 
 
Korso Jerusalem
22:34 / 30.05.06
I'm surrounded by the fuckers, I live in a backwoods section of New Hampshire. It's impossible to avoid them, and I've known many since grade school. It's a strange situation, I guess it makes more sense when you experience it personally.

How is my attitude toward race "fucked up"? I am a very socially liberal person. Just because I oppose affirmative action and the constant strive to paint issues as involving race does not make my attitude strange.
Elaborate, please. I find this fascinating.
 
 
Korso Jerusalem
22:37 / 30.05.06
Oh, Nixon said that? How strangely out of character.
I did not know that.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:42 / 30.05.06
The term "affirmative action" was first used by Kennedy in 1961. Executive Order 11246 was ratified in 1965 under flaming liberal PC lefty Lyndon B Johnson. His famously left-wing, liberal successor to the Presidency, Richard Nixon, said the above while imposing the Philadelphia order in 1969.

This is really basic stuff, Phallicus, and I don't understand the mindset that feels entitled to make pronouncements about what's right and wrong for members of other races without even a cursory understanding of the history. I mean, really, you don't know anything about the history or practice of affirmative action and you've spent three pages linking to right-wing sites and pages on the NAACP websitre that you don't appear actually to have read? And you don't think your attitude to race is fucked up?

Dude.
 
 
Korso Jerusalem
22:48 / 30.05.06
I used to have loads of material that my views resulted from, but I seem to be running low on mental gas right now. Let's declare an intermission until some time tomorrow and I'll post them up.

My attitudes on race are just fine, thank you. I'm just personally opposed to the propogation of claims about discrimination and the like, which I feel only widen the racial divide. The more we talk about "black rights" as opposed to "human rights", the worse we get.
That is my view on race. Tell me it's fucked up.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:56 / 30.05.06
Did anyone mention black rights? I didn't see anyone mention black rights? I think that might be a fucked-up-attitude-to-race insertion...
 
 
Korso Jerusalem
22:58 / 30.05.06
No, I was giving you my views on race. You claimed they were "fucked up", and continue to, yet really have nothing to back up this statement, which is sweeping and laughable at best.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:00 / 30.05.06
Actually, I've already backed it up, although if I was looking for more evidence that your attitude to race was fucked up, which as it happens I'm not, the idea that mentioning the existence of discrimination only makes it worse would be a beautiful gift.

I'm just guessing, but is there a lot of ethnic diversity in your corner of New Hampshire? Have you found that many jobs have been taken by t3h blacks?
 
 
Korso Jerusalem
23:07 / 30.05.06
I said claiming evidence of discrimination makes it worse.

And no, New Hampshire isn't very diverse. I haven't been affected by "t3h blacks" taking jobs, nor would I oppose them holding them on their own merits.
I oppose the concept of itself. I'm sure there are many issues you hold opinions about that you haven't experienced directly either, which makes that whole statement irrelevant.

You're still grasping, but you have nothing. You're trying to talk in circles.

Why, I ask again, are my views on race "fucked up"?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:14 / 30.05.06
As I have already said, because they are based on ignorance. Also, now, because you are changing them with every post, which suggests that you haven't really thought about this at all. You know nothing about the history of affirmative action, you have already wriggled once to try to claim that you always meant that in cases where every suitability factor was equal a candidate from a minority group would be selected, when that was obviously not the claim in your early sources. You had to Google search to come up with instances of something you claimed to be ubiquitous and self-evident, and that you claimed already to know about. You are now claiming that actually you are only opposed to - what? - false claims of discrimination? Very fucking controversial. You may be right. Your views on race are too sketchy and ill-thought-out to be coherent enough to be fucked up, On the plus side, this means you might, even if you are not able to admit it even to yourself, alter your views in the face of actual evidenced responses to something reasonably coherent. So, there's hope.
 
 
Korso Jerusalem
23:19 / 30.05.06
Praise, praise the lawd.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:21 / 30.05.06
So, while we're waiting for the mods to tidy up this section, how _do_ you define "black rights", as distinct from "human rights". Is it your contention that people in the United States start off with exactly equal prospects, or only that race has no impact on these prospects, which may vary in other ways, such as height?
 
 
Ticker
23:25 / 30.05.06
I wander off line for a few hours and this is what I find?

Forgive me for interjecting but can we please remember that this medium and language in general is extremely slippery?
Is it possible to extend the benefit of doubt that the people involved with exchaging viewpoints may just be unable to express themselves in a way that others find satisfactory? Can we vent the spleen elsewhere and go back to topic?

I live in NH and it is a very white state compared to some other states in the US. However many of us have lived or were raised in areas with a better level of diversity. It is not as white as Maine nor as mixed as California nor as overtly rascist/sexiest/homophobic as the southern states.

In America I have experienced personally and watched in action racial, class, and sexual discrimination. I have experienced many social ills used as tools to manipulate by unscrupulous people but this does not mean those ills do not exist as a crushing oppression. Quite the opposite because those who suffer this discrimantion will take up the cause of another and sadly this is occassionally abused.

I have known people to falsely accuse others of various crimes including rape, but I make it a point to always extend belief to the victim and suspend judgement onto the accused. I was not there, I do not know.

I do know that people victimize other humans and the first step in doing so is to strip the intended victim of personhood. What is used to do so depends on the context. If we look at the allegations as true...
In this case race is being used to justify someone as less protected combined with the victim's gender.

The tools used to dehumanize are important as they do play a factor in who is spared and who is assaulted.
 
 
Korso Jerusalem
23:28 / 30.05.06
I say that all people start off with equal rights and prospects. It would seem that the more we speak of the groups as separate entities, the more of a divide appears.
What if Black History month were gone, and black history simply appeared in text books as regular old history? Instead of ethnic diversity, why not shoot for ethnic unity, and cultural diversity?
Prospects in today's day in age are essentially equal, except, I'm sure, in some backwards, tiny towns and regions. To assume that ethnic Americans have less of a chance to be a successful member of society is to handicap them on some level.
The same goes for gender too, I feel, though there are admittedly some psychological views resulting from simple biology that are impossible to stamp out but very possible to suppress.

Fucking christ, I'm trying to express my entire opinion on American culture in one post. Well, do what you can with that, and while the mods clean up feel free to continue this discourse through PMs.
 
 
Korso Jerusalem
23:34 / 30.05.06
Sorry for the double post, but thank fuck for you, XK.

I've been cornered into a bit of a rut throughout this whole argument, defending ideas that I only vaguely subscribe to in order to try and maintain my integrity.

Let's start anew.

False accusations of rape and discrimination do exist, we agree on that.

The Feministing post did come off a bit strong and naive, we agree on that.

I have no everfucking clue as to what I thought I knew about affirmative action, I now admit that. I learned most of that from my political science teacher, who I will have a very stern talk with tomorrow.

I do believe in racial unity and cultural diversity, which is not "fucked up", thank you very much.

Now, onwards.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:42 / 30.05.06

Prospects in today's day in age are essentially equal, except, I'm sure, in some backwards, tiny towns and regions. To assume that ethnic Americans have less of a chance to be a successful member of society is to handicap them on some level.


Really? That's interesting. Population of America - just a hair under 300 million, officially, of which, officially, 12.9% is black. So, by your logic, about 13 of the Chief Executives of Fortune 100 companies should be black, yes?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:43 / 30.05.06
The Feministing post did come off a bit strong and naive, we agree on that.

And your response came across as ignorant and hysterical. Do we agree on that?
 
 
Ticker
23:48 / 30.05.06
Durham, N.C. -- Over the past several weeks, Duke University officials and others in our community have emphasized the importance of not rushing to judgment and letting the legal system establish the truth regarding the incident of March 13. Today a grand jury handed down an indictment against David Evans, who just graduated from Duke and was among the occupants of the house at 610 N. Buchanan Blvd. It is important to remember that an indictment is not a conviction. Ultimately, the District Attorney will be responsible for presenting his evidence, and a jury will decide the innocence or guilt of Mr. Evans and the other two young men who have been charged. As Duke President Richard H. Brodhead has said consistently, a person in our legal system is innocent until proven guilty. It is worth repeating again today that these latest charges do not mean the accused are guilty. That is for a jury to decide.

The entire article here
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:51 / 30.05.06
So, if it's for a jury to decide, can we agree that it is poor form both for the women's lacrosse team to wear armbands claiming that the alleged victim is lying, and also that it is poor form of the university not to prevent that? And, further, that it is not insane to suggest that this is not acceptable behaviour? Only, I think that was where we came in.
 
 
Korso Jerusalem
23:53 / 30.05.06
For fuck's sake man, are you enjoying this?

Fine.

My response was perfectly reasonable if a bit opinionated, you just jumped on it because it didn't go along with the typical back-slapping of this forum.

Hell, you even dredged up such bullshit as accusing me of attacking only women, then accused me of racism (or didn't- my god, the clever wording astounds me!)

Also, to assume that the Fortune 100 would be 13% black is bullshit, plain and simple. We all know that most of that list comes from old, wealthy families, from older ages when being white had an advantage. To use that as an excuse for claiming blacks are at a disadvantage is just twisting words, which you have consistantly done throughout this entire argument.

Well then, Mr. Haus, give it to me. Show me all the factual evidence, articles and statistics that will tear down my opinions, prove me to be a misogynist racist and completely destroy me.
Don't just whine and call me an idiot, actually prove something. You are intent on carrying out this fruitless argument here in this thread rather than in private, so go right ahead.
 
 
Korso Jerusalem
23:55 / 30.05.06
I was commenting on the poster talking about the team complying with the male oppression, and all that extreme talk. Not the act itself, the take on it.
 
 
Ticker
23:59 / 30.05.06
It appears in the pursuit of solidarity the women's team has crossed a line, however so long as they are not on the jury that is their right. People believe all sorts of dumb ass shit (I know I do) that gets in the way of a better tomorrow but censoring that stupidity does not always improve the situation.

Should the university ban such poorily chosen displays of ignorance? No certainly not as it indicates a clear issue in modern America which we are partially poking with a stick.

Should someone say something to the women in question to explain why it is fucked up? Most asssuredly, though the approach would be interesting to watch.
 
 
Ticker
00:07 / 31.05.06
Gentlemen, please return to the topic as it now under way.

Haus Phallicus already admitted he needed to review his arguements can you accept this and please move on?

Phallicus can you please only respond to topic based posts for a bit so we can steer this puppy away from troubled waters?

Yes I know I'm not a mod, I'm just a woman who wants to discuss the topic. Now I'm going to get dinner. If I return and find you still at it I'm going to have to post pictures of Duke Lacrosse players and their supporters. For no other reason than to be a jerk. PICTURES OF PEOPLE BEING DUMB!!! (see I'm good at threats)
 
 
Korso Jerusalem
00:16 / 31.05.06
Good idea. I admit ignorance and shall exit stage left as gracefully as I can.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:18 / 31.05.06
Black people, not "blacks", Phallicus.

OK, so 12.9% of the highest earners under, say, 30 will be black? You're prepared to bet your house on that? I'm good with that. Let's discuss it in another thread. Before you do that, you might want to read "Feminism 101" in the Conversation and "Political Correctness - Collation and Discussion in the Head Shop". Also, ask your political science tutor about Bakke versus the University of California and its ramifications.

xk: So, the University has no responsibility to censure it students for inflaming the issue on its campus, in an sporting event which it is paying to stage, is hosting and in which they are representing the university? I can't shake the feeling that this is somewhhat irresponsible. If the alleged victim had been a female student at Duke, for example, from a good family, would they have been allowed to do this? I rather suspect they would not. So, what's the message there?
 
 
Jake, Colossus of Clout
04:42 / 31.05.06
Prospects in today's day in age are essentially equal, except, I'm sure, in some backwards, tiny towns and regions.

Is that why the people left stranded in New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina, because they didn't have the resources to leave, were overwhelmingly black?

That's just one example, but here is a wealth of interesting graphs from the University of Maryland, and a
chart from the US Census Bureau, all dealing with distribution of wealth by race. I think you'll find huge discrepancies between your beliefs and the facts.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
06:09 / 31.05.06
Phallicus I say that all people start off with equal rights and prospects.

That's right. A black kid in a single-parent family below the poverty line is just as likely to go to university as the Bush twins. Any American kid can grow up to be President, it's just pure chance they've been white wealthy men thus far.

Yours is a view that, in my years on the interweb, I've come across a number of times on the more reasonable Conservative websites. These tend to push the assumption that Rosa Parks and Martin Luther-King were the end of a process rather than it's beginning and that now everything okay and that anybody claiming anything different just wants more than their fair share of the cake and/or special rights.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
06:12 / 31.05.06
On the day Duke coach Mike Pressler resigned, university president Richard Brodhead announced the formation of five committees to investigate different facets of the scandal. Law professor James Coleman chaired a seven-member committee looking into the history of the lacrosse team's behavior.

Brodhead summarized the 17-page report in two sentences: "The Coleman committee's report tells of a close-knit team that did well academically and excelled athletically but that was irresponsible in its repeated abuse of alcohol. The committee did not, however, find a pattern of racist behavior or sexual abuse."


A detailed chronology of the disciplinary record of the lacrosse team revealed that:

• There were 56 lacrosse players involved in 36 separate incidents over the past three academic years, most of them involving alcohol.
• While lacrosse players comprise .75 percent of the Duke undergraduate population of 6,244, they were responsible for 33 percent of the open container cases, 25 percent of the disorderly conduct cases and 21 percent of the alcohol-unsafe behavior cases.
• In the 2004-05 academic year, the Office of Judicial Affairs handled 97 non-academic misconduct cases, and 11 of them (just over 11 percent) involved lacrosse players.


'People become irresponsible in contact with alcohol' shocker! What's an 'open container case'?
 
 
Jake, Colossus of Clout
06:22 / 31.05.06
It means you're walking around in public with an open beer, usually.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
06:36 / 31.05.06
That's against the law in the U.S? Crickey!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:17 / 31.05.06
Misdemeanour in some areas - something similar is practiced by police in some areas of our own major cities. Hence the brown bags you see people wrapping bottles in when drinking on the street.

I think one of the things that's interesting here is that the discussion of race and gender, rather than beiing as xk believes a distraction from the subject at hand, is possibly key to understanding, in particular, why some of the responses seem so bewildering to liberal old Britain. Fortunately, when one says something like:


The same goes for gender too, I feel, though there are admittedly some psychological views resulting from simple biology that are impossible to stamp out but very possible to suppress.


A lot of the prior work has been done. To point to a single thread, alas discusses the legal and professional status of women at some length here, here, and here. "I feel" statements should be used to express emotions, not unsubstantiated assertions about current events.
 
 
Ticker
12:35 / 31.05.06
to be clear Haus I do believe race is important here as you can see in my post where I state:

I do know that people victimize other humans and the first step in doing so is to strip the intended victim of personhood. What is used to do so depends on the context. If we look at the allegations as true...
In this case race is being used to justify someone as less protected combined with the victim's gender.

The tools used to dehumanize are important as they do play a factor in who is spared and who is assaulted.


I felt taking Phallicus to task had been achieved, he admitted he needed to review his view points, and I wanted to turn the focus away from him, not race or gender.
 
  

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