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Rape accusation against Duke lacrosse team

 
  

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Our Lady Has Left the Building
01:14 / 06.03.07
The Onion weigh in: Almost Nobody Raped During Duke's First Lacrosse Match

"The Duke lacrosse program plans to uphold its proud tradition of winning and barely raping anyone," first-year coach John Danowski told assembled reporters and law-enforcement officials after the match.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
09:06 / 19.03.07
At some point, witnesses have told investigators, a 17-year-old girl was raped in a room near the kitchen by at least three men -- two, witnesses said, were members of the baseball team. Other people cheered and clapped, according to one eyewitness. Some revelers were encouraged to go into the room, but left in disgust after they realized what was going on. Two players reportedly tried to stop the alleged sexual assault. Three women, identified only as De Anza College students, took the high school girl to the hospital early on March 4, when investigators said she reported the rape.

"I am not surprised that they are taking their time," said defense attorney Steve Clark, a former local prosecutor. "The last thing you want to do is accuse the wrong person. It's hard to un-ring that bell." And, Clark added, the high-profile rape prosecution of three Duke University lacrosse players that failed last year surely weighs on the minds of investigators and prosecutors.


Strange how failing to convict someone of murder never raises fears that the ability to prosecute anyone else for murder has taken a hit.
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
15:29 / 19.03.07
Strange how failing to convict someone of murder never raises fears that the ability to prosecute anyone else for murder has taken a hit.

I think this is more an issue of the higher profile in the news of both cases. I would assume that many rapists are still being arrested and convicted as before. In this case, because the media is all over the case, and because of the similarities to a previous case that failed, the comparison is made.
 
 
Dead Megatron
19:46 / 12.04.07
Any thoughts on this case's demise? I saw on CNN yestarday that the prosecution office realized it was so wrong, instead of saying they are droping the case for "lack of evidence", as usual, the DEA said it was because "the accused are innocent". In a world of precise words, as is the Law, this speaks volumes.

Sorry, dudes!

So, was the woman some pathological liar after some quick fame and/or cash, or was she delusional or something? Or it does not matter to us?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
10:14 / 13.04.07
Let's leave this topic alone shall we, until the next time we have an all-out misogynist on the board. And possibly not make the failure of the case to proceed all about the woman's reliability?
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
13:01 / 13.04.07
Our Lady, can you unpack your request to leave the topic alone a little, please? While DM's response to the verdict has a nasty stench of glee to it, there are issues this news brings up that might benefit from some thought.
 
 
Dead Megatron
13:35 / 13.04.07
I do apologise for the " stench glee". But why is the woman's reliability not an arguable issue? I mean, if the accused are truly completeley innocent, then that case was based solely on her false accusations, and it moved forward, supposedly, only because of the D.A.'s interest in pleasing the black community in view of an upcoming primary elections, trampling normal procedures and the benefit of the doubt.

We were all fooled by a person (regardless of her gender, race or social classe) with ill-intentions, weren't we? Why would that be an off-limits debate? Because we wanted the Lacross players to be guilty?

I think that to assume the rich white kids must be guilty by default is almost as bad as assuming the poor black stripper woman is a "lying ho" by default, and considering most os us (myself included) started this thread under the former supposition - which no one questioned, and many seem unwilling to do so even now - maybe we should adress our own "reverse racism" as well. Isn't it?
 
 
Dead Megatron
13:40 / 13.04.07
And possibly not make the failure of the case to proceed all about the woman's reliability?

Oh, and the case didn't "failed". The case never existed for real. It was, and pardon the sarcastic metaphor, a "witch-hunt". In view of that, the fact we were so quickly to pass judgment and assume the woman was a victim because she seemed like a victim speaks volumes as to the possibility we are no better than the "all-out mysognists" of the world, which in this particularly case were closer to the truth than we, the "enlightened, sensible people", were.
 
 
Daemon est Deus Inversus
14:21 / 13.04.07
There is some comfort that the system does work. It seems probable that the disciplinary committee will recommend disbarment. How he managed to get elected is more a reflection on the electorate than on the legal profession.
 
 
Dead Megatron
14:32 / 13.04.07
Dude, the system does NOT work. If it did work, this whole debacle would never have happened. And this is one freak case in which the rape victim was lying and the DA was an ass. Most times, they are not. And, in those times, very often the rapist still go free.

"the system work"! Give me a break
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
18:22 / 13.04.07
I'm sorry if I over-reacted DM, I read in your words an apparent rush to judgement that it was all that evil, lyin', connivin' womans fault, because obviously a poor black woman is going to scream rape when she's spent time in the company of rich white men because... and so on from the How to Defend Yourself From Accusations of Rape the Conservative Way handbook. Your subsequent posts do show that you recognise that other people may have been at fault here as well.
 
 
Dead Megatron
19:00 / 13.04.07
Yeah, sorry about the misunderstanding. I was referring exclusively to this one instance in particular, which did strike me as an exception to the rule. But a relevant exception, nonetheless, is all.
 
 
Liger Null
20:44 / 13.04.07
I've been thinking about the media coverage regarding the accused/accusers in rape cases. It seems to me that if the media is going to (rightly) go to such great lengths to protect the identity of the accuser, shouldn't the same protections be extended to the accused?

Surely the stigma of being an alleged sex offender (however falsely) is equal to or even greater than the stigma of having been a victim?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
05:00 / 14.04.07
This has come up before over here, Craig Charles was accused of rape, TV shows he'd been in were edited of anything that could possibly prejudice a jury (I assume that was why) the trial finally arrived and it didn't take too long to prove he was innocent.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
12:38 / 16.04.07
Dead Megatron, could it perhaps have been that the charges were pursued because the DA considered them serious and feasible enough that they were worth pursuing, rather than being a "witch hunt" based on hir "interest in pleasing the black community"?

Also, although the fact that the DEA used the words "[the] accused are innocent" rather than "lack of evidence" doesn't make me so completely certain as to the lacrosse players' innocence as to immediately denounce the accuser as either a "pathological liar" or "delusional", I'm not sure there's anything to suggest, as you do, that anyone here is unwilling to entertain the possibility that the players were indeed innocent. Unless, perhaps, you're confusing innocence of rape with innocence of being utterly despicable? Things such as the horrible email cited earlier in this thread may be making it difficult for some to feel particularly sorry for the Duke lacrosse players, regardless of the case's "not guilty" verdict.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
14:59 / 17.04.07
This has come up before over here, Craig Charles was accused of rape, TV shows he'd been in were edited of anything that could possibly prejudice a jury (I assume that was why) the trial finally arrived and it didn't take too long to prove he was innocent.

It's a tricky one, though- Craig Charles came up in conversation the other day and I found myself having to think for quite a while to remember whether he'd actually been proved innocent or whether the charges had been dropped.

Say "Colin Stagg" to anyone, and I'll bet a fair few of them will say he was the bloke who killed Rachel Nickell, rather than the bloke who was acquitted of her murder.

That said, though, it's still a tricky one.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
15:02 / 17.04.07
Sorry for the double post, but...

I guess there's an argument for concealing the identities of all parties. The press being what they are, though, I'd imagine it would be very difficult to implement in practical terms. (See the way the R*b*rt C*tt*ge case received no coverage because it was sub judice, whereas the papers seem to think it's worth the risk of getting in trouble when Muslims are involved, because the amount of papers sold presumably makes up for any fines levied).
 
 
Mug Chum
23:51 / 20.04.07
Haven't followed the case, just read this thread a few weeks ago.

But recently I saw the Daily Show's angle on the media coverage and found it bizarrely interesting (and funny in a surrealistic sort of "ha-ha WHAAA?!"). Even though Nancy Grace was featured more proeminently (since she's a straight-up surreal laughter-fodder with no chance of being taken seriously -- from what I gather, it isn't quite the media I live with), it was the one bit from CNN that really spooked me.

If you want to watch it (streaming):

http://www.comedycentral.com/sitewide/media_player/play.jhtml?itemId=85250
 
 
Mug Chum
23:54 / 20.04.07
Oops, sorry. Watched it again and it was Fox News, not CNN.
(isn't horrible that some part of me went "ooh, ok then, that's more normal..."?)
 
 
Dead Megatron
10:35 / 02.05.07
Dead Megatron, could it perhaps have been that the charges were pursued because the DA considered them serious and feasible enough that they were worth pursuing, rather than being a "witch hunt" based on hir "interest in pleasing the black community"?


It is possible, of course. Which makes the DA an incompetent fool, instead of a hack with a political agenda.


Also, although the fact that the DEA used the words "[the] accused are innocent" rather than "lack of evidence" doesn't make me so completely certain as to the lacrosse players' innocence as to immediately denounce the accuser as either a "pathological liar" or "delusional",

Well, it does make their innocence completely certain. Lawyers don't use absolutes unless they are really sure of waht they are saying

And if the woman is not a "pathological liar" nor "delusional", what that makes her? A simple liar? An ill-intended con artist? A media-loving freak?

I'm not sure there's anything to suggest, as you do, that anyone here is unwilling to entertain the possibility that the players were indeed innocent. Unless, perhaps, you're confusing innocence of rape with innocence of being utterly despicable?

Well, that comment seems to indicate that you want them to be guilty, if not rape, something, just because you don't like them. Being utterly despicable is not a crime, you know...

Things such as the horrible email cited earlier in this thread may be making it difficult for some to feel particularly sorry for the Duke lacrosse players, regardless of the case's "not guilty" verdict.

Well, try being accused of something you didn't do and found guilty by default because simply of who you are, facing the possibility of going to jail hwere you'll probably be the victim of the crime you were falsely accused, and let's see how you react. But, to be honest, I have to track back this thread now to remind myself of that e-mail you mention.

My point was, the guys were innocent, the woman was lying, and the DA is, at the very least, stupid, and yet no one here seemed to consider such turn of events deserving of at least a "hmm, would you look at that, we were wrong" post. Why?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:48 / 02.05.07
You seem to have missed this bit, DM:

I'm not sure there's anything to suggest, as you do, that anyone here is unwilling to entertain the possibility that the players were indeed innocent.

Or, rather, become distracted from it. Could you possibly point out to me the places in this thread where people were unwilling to entertain the possibility that the players were indeed innocent of the charges brought against them? I think that if we are going to line people up and take them to task for not being sufficiently pentitent, we need a list.
 
 
Dead Megatron
11:27 / 02.05.07
Me, for one.

But, hey, if we were willing to consider the possibility of them being innocent, it wasn't exaclty brought up in this thread, was it? Except, of course, for the "mysoginistic baning-material" people

And the silence that followed the dismissal of the case was a bit of a give-away, wasn't it?

But I'm not looking for a fight here. I'm just wondering.
 
 
Dead Megatron
11:29 / 02.05.07
Also, I'm not stating people wer unwilling. I'm just stating that this is an issue to be addressed. Profiling cuts both ways, it seems.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:07 / 02.05.07
Well, I think people certainly often form hypotheses based on their natural sympathies, yes, and also on the available evidence. However, what you actually said was:

I think that to assume the rich white kids must be guilty by default is almost as bad as assuming the poor black stripper woman is a "lying ho" by default, and considering most os us (myself included) started this thread under the former supposition - which no one questioned, and many seem unwilling to do so even now - maybe we should adress our own "reverse racism" as well. Isn't it?

So, you said that most of the people in this thread assumed that the white kids were guilty by default, and that the same group are unwilling even now to acknowledge that they are not guilty. I don't see this in the actual thread, and if you believe that it is the case then I would like to understand what the basis for your supposition is.

This kind of "we", like the same usage of "people", is quite dangerous, because it suggests that this is a communal action.

So, if you're saying that you, personally, assumed that the students were guilty, and you think that you did so based on your own "reverse racism", that's fine. But I'm not convinced that we, by which let's assume we mean the people who interacted on this thread, assumed that the students were guilty. Hence the request for identification. I think you may be generalising.

Also, I have absolutely no idea what you mean by:


And the silence that followed the dismissal of the case was a bit of a give-away, wasn't it?


I was not aware that it was compulsory for people to return to threads and recant their previous statements, lest some conclusion be drawn about them. If this is the case, then I think we need to start enforcing it a lot harder.

So, let's try for a version of that which:

a) Does not begin with an unsupported claim about the thoughts or actions of other members of Barbelith.
b) Does not rely on arguments such as "a DA who brings a case that is subsequently dropped is necessarily incompetent", "if a lawyer says something, it must be true" and others which appear to be trying rather too hard to prove those unsupported claims.
c) Does not once again lead us back to prison rape.


So, at the end of this case, do people think that the way in which it was reported, and the way the evidence was presented, encouraged people to make up their minds one way or another? Also, why did this case become such a big story? What were the magic ingredients?

Possibly the American obsession with sports is a factor, but I can't shake the feeling that other factors may be in play. For example, recently Don Imus has become the center of another controversy involving race and sport after his use of racist language abotu the Rutgers women's basketball team - story here. Reading the American press during this, occasional note was made of a previous incident in which the captain of the Rutgers women's basketball team abducted her ex-girlfriend for several hours and subjected her to various depredations. In these situations it is almost impossible to compare situations, of course, but I am curious as to whether it received the same profile, and if so whether this was due to better news management or other factors. It _sounds_ like a story made in Heaven. Did it go big, Americans?

There is also a broader question about whether it would actually be possible to conduct a trial if the media is out of control, as it may become impossible to isolate a jury sufficiently. If the potential jurors have been fed so much information and hearsay before a trial is even convened, how can one state that they are unprejudiced? Whhat can be done to reing the press in?:
 
 
Mistoffelees
14:31 / 16.06.07
DA Mike Nifong Says He'll Resign

"The North Carolina State Bar said Nifong withheld DNA test results from the players' defense attorneys, lied to the court and bar investigators, and made misleading and inflammatory comments about the three athletes, who were cleared of charges they raped a stripper at a team party in March 2006."

" "It has become increasingly apparent, during the course of this week, in some ways that it might not have been before, that my presence as the district attorney in Durham is not furthering the cause of justice," Nifong said."

Wow, after having behaved like that, he still isnĀ“t able to understand what he has done. He "maybe got carried away a little bit". I hope this man never practices his job again.
 
 
alas
14:38 / 19.06.07
Context. Here's the most typical scenario: 1) woman is raped, 2) she is scared and doesn't feel she can tell anyone because her rapist was an acquaintance, lover, boyfriend, trick, or husband. 3) (optional) A friend tells her she really should report this to a doctor. So she goes to the doctor and they do a pretty humiliating rape test, and they subject her body to an intimate search. She is reprimanded for having waited/changed clothes/showered. She's told she bettter start an AIDS resistance regime, but that there's little chance of prosecution. 4) Nothing happens.

Now, let's try to find a typical false accusation scenario from The Innocence Project. Read a bunch of them, as I just did. Here's one:

Alejandro Dominguez

Incident Year: 1989
Jurisdiction: IL
Charge: Rape, Home Invasion
Conviction: Rape, Home Invasion
Sentence: 9 Years
Year of Conviction: 1990
Exoneration Year: 2002
Sentence Served: 4 Years
Real perpetrator found? Not Yet
Contributing Causes: Eyewitness Misidentification, Unreliable/Limited Science
Compensation? Not Yet
In 1990, Alejandro Dominguez, then a 16 year-old Mexican national, was convicted and sentenced to 9 years in prison for the rape of a white woman in Illinois.

Dominquez's conviction was based primarily on the victim's identification. The eyewitness identification procedure employed by the investigators was biased and highly suggestive. On cross examination, the victim testified that the lead detective had singled out Dominguez during the lineup and asked the victim if he was "the one." She concurred. This identification was also undermined by the victim's own disregarded testimony in which her description of the attacker did not match Dominguez. She told police that her attacker wore a diamond earring and had a tattoo, but Dominquez had neither a pierced ear nor any tattoos. She also said that he spoke to her in English, but Dominquez only spoke Spanish.

Forensics also played a part in Dominguez's conviction. William Wilson, a forensic serologist from Northern Illinois Crime Laboratory, testified that serological testing on semen recovered from the victim could not exclude Dominguez. The fact that 67% of the population could not be excluded was not discussed or volunteered.

Dominguez served four years of a nine year sentence. After Immigration and Naturalization Service threatened to deport him for failing to register his conviction in 2001, he sought DNA testing, at his own expense, to prove his innocence. Dominguez was officially exonerated on April 26, 2002, after DNA testing proved that he could not have deposited the semen left by the perpetrator.


1) White woman is raped by a man of color, probably someone she knows but not necessarily. She feels more able to report this as a crime than she would if it were a white man, because she knows that it will be much more likely to be prosecuted.

2) A DA stands chomping at the bit to prosecute, even on flimsy evidence, because there's a wonderful confluence of racism with what the whitepowerstructure says it's "ok" for women to be upset about: black and brown men attacking white womanhood. And feminists are upset about rape, no matter what, but most of us are suspicious of the "convenience" of being told that this is an example of how "feminism" has really changed the system. But this looks good for a DA--gets the suburban soccermom vote and the white male vote across the class spectrum. Tough on crime=tough on black/brown people/immigrants.

3) 12 years later, and after a 4 year sentence has been served, a DNA test reveals that the attorney was "overzealous" and "made some bad judgments" and "got carried away."

4) The real rapist is still at large, the woman's voice was actually disregarded in the trial in order to snag any old Mexican. They all look alike.

5) Neither victim nor the falsely accused are compensated.

6) The DA...who knows what happened to him. Maybe a handslap. Probably he'd long ago been promoted and no one bothered to do anything about it. %Just a dam illegal anyway, who shouldn't be here...who the fuck cares.%

The "system" still works for wealthy white men with powerful families and is still primarily designed to serve them and their needs. Not ready to call this reverse racism by a long shot. The media attention to this case now neatly ensures that this will remain the case, and most of us can continue to ignore the Alejandro Dominguezes of the world, and we can feel really fine about assuming women are lying. The structure of the situation--we still live in a world where the right of wealthy white men to pay a mediary to have a couple of poor black woman come into their space to strip for them is a cultural norm, and that is pretty much unquestioned and being protected at all costs. These kids have their halos back, and are heroic. (The email is horrific, DM--if you can't remember it even months later, that speaks volumes to me.)

That's the problem for me.
 
 
Dead Megatron
10:23 / 20.06.07
(The email is horrific, DM--if you can't remember it even months later, that speaks volumes to me.)

It`s been a while yes, so remind me: were any of the three accused guys the specific author of the e-mail?

Ntw, I never said or implied we do not live in a fucked-up world where rich people (mostly white) can do whatever they want. Only that this was not the case.

And I honestly have no problem with people (of whatever race, gender, or sex orientation) hiring other people (also of whatever race, gender, or sex orientation ) to strip for them. The fact the stripper was black and poor and her clients were white and rich should have no bearing in the case.

So, here`s an hypothetical question: if the stripper were white and the clients were black, would care less about the case? Would you "cry wolf" just as easily? Or would you be quicker to dennouce the "unfair prosecution" of "innocent people" for what they are, not what they did?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:37 / 20.06.07
Normally, at this point, I would copy and paste the contents of my previous post, to point up the fact that DM has apparently either not read, not understood or read and then forgotten about it.

It's not really worth the wear to my control key, though, is it?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:52 / 20.06.07
Dead Megatron stop swinging your cock around and shut up unless you can link us to the bit of this thread that deserves the remark no one here seemed to consider such turn of events deserving of at least a "hmm, would you look at that, we were wrong" post. Why? Because I've just read this thread trying to find the comment that inspires this and actually the only thing people said was that it was possible this had happened and it was going to court.

Which makes the DA an incompetent fool, instead of a hack with a political agenda.

No it doesn't. Cases are dropped all the time because people are thought to be innocent, there isn't enough evidence, it turns out that the evidence is flawed. Cases are brought that rest solely on circumstantial evidence, that doesn't make people incompetent, it means they think it needs to go to court. The DA is no more an incompetent fool then anyone who brings a case that gets thrown out.

if the stripper were white and the clients were black, would care less about the case? Would you "cry wolf" just as easily? Or would you be quicker to dennouce the "unfair prosecution" of "innocent people" for what they are, not what they did?

Why are you asking us? We're not the media.
 
 
Dead Megatron
12:00 / 20.06.07
Is this a repeat loop?

yes I read it. And still I find you fail to see my point utterly. gte more I try to explain it, the more you seem to take in the exacly opposite direction. also, I know now I'll never change your opinion about anything, it seems to be set. so I did let it go unanswered, and still do, because I just don't have the inclination anymore to engage in this. I thought I made that clear already.

Myu point is simply this: we have judge those three guys - and those three guys alone, not his teammates, college budies, frat boys or social class and race peers - who none of us personally know or had any knowledge about previously based on false accusations plus our pre-concepted idea of how they might be, as well, as in the e-mail case, if I understand this correctly, as what other people have done. All the three have gone through was a kafkian nightmare of being unjustly "flaied" in the public eye for something than have not done, in connection to an activity that is completely supported by society at large (i.e. hiring strippers). The racial issue may have been a creepy factor at the time, but we cannot know for sure, can we? There were, as far as evidence goes, no "horrifying sexual violence nor racial hatred" in the part of these three guys alone. And still we seem to skip this point in favor of still morally condemning them for what they are.

And I think I thus have said (over and over) all I have to say about this matter.
 
 
Dead Megatron
12:03 / 20.06.07
Dead Megatron stop swinging your cock around and shut up unless you can link us to the bit of this thread that deserves the remark no one here seemed to consider such turn of events deserving of at least a "hmm, would you look at that, we were wrong" post. Why? Because I've just read this thread trying to find the comment that inspires this and actually the only thing people said was that it was possible this had happened and it was going to court.

What inspired the remark, as i said in that orignal post, is the silence that followed the dismissal of the case and the revelation of the D.A. "ill-intentions" and the fact the three of them were innocent. Not an specific comment, as you seem to believe, but the lack thereof in the wake of such a major turn of events.

there
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:03 / 20.06.07
And I think I thus have said (over and over) all I have to say about this matter.

That's probably a good thing, because if you were to continue posting in this thread in a manner that suggest that you have an axe to grind (namely that you believe there is a PC-gone-mad loony liberal majority consensus on Barbelith that wants to see innocent white men locked up for rape), without being willing to pay much attention to what anyone else actually posts, prefering to offer us insights such as "Dead Megatron doesn't have a problem men with paying women to strip", then I think we'd have a real problem here.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:15 / 20.06.07
That answer is toss.

no one here seemed to consider such turn of events deserving of at least a "hmm, would you look at that, we were wrong" post. Why?

and

What inspired the remark, as i said in that orignal post, is the silence that followed the dismissal of the case and the revelation of the D.A. "ill-intentions" and the fact the three of them were innocent. Not an specific comment, as you seem to believe, but the lack thereof in the wake of such a major turn of events.

and as I said

the only thing people said was that it was possible this had happened and it was going to court.

So basically you want people to say they were wrong even though no one was wrong, they just felt the media and some individuals were jumping to conclusions, which remains the truth.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:16 / 20.06.07
Perhaps I'm wrong though and you would like to link to the bit where someone says that the lacrosse players committed this act and should be held accountable?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:03 / 20.06.07
Ah, what the hell.

So, you said that most of the people in this thread assumed that the white kids were guilty by default, and that the same group are unwilling even now to acknowledge that they are not guilty. I don't see this in the actual thread, and if you believe that it is the case then I would like to understand what the basis for your supposition is.

This kind of "we", like the same usage of "people", is quite dangerous, because it suggests that this is a communal action.

So, if you're saying that you, personally, assumed that the students were guilty, and you think that you did so based on your own "reverse racism", that's fine. But I'm not convinced that we, by which let's assume we mean the people who interacted on this thread, assumed that the students were guilty. Hence the request for identification. I think you may be generalising.
 
  

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