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Rape accusation against Duke lacrosse team

 
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
00:39 / 16.04.06
Very probably - I was lazily thinking of basketball as a sport with more black players at the college level than lacrosse, as lacrosse I associate with bastions of white privilege at the high school level. On closer inspection, the roster of Duke University's basketball team is certainly less white than the lacrosse team, but it has about a 50/50 split of white and black players. So, yeah - that's definitely something to keep an eye on - situations in which race relations are already charged or strained can lead to further charging or straining, and one has to work hard to keep an eye on one's suspicion reflexes.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
08:03 / 16.04.06
David R. Usher of the American Coalition for Fathers and Children has weighed in:

Rapists sneak around and do things as anonymously as possible. They plan their mark and then police spend a lot of time and resources to figure out who did it. Gang-raping women in busy college party bathrooms while hollering racial epithets is not something that happens even at “Animal House”.

The “suspicious” email sent by one of the alleged rapists did not add up either. Folks do not send emails to friends joking nervously about torturing and killing a stripper unless something very upsetting did indeed take place. As the story unfolds, I predict we will find out that the stripper made a blackmail threat in the bathroom – something like – “you give me a lot of money or I will say you raped me”.


I love the 'suspicious'. I also like how we run on from the email straight into it being the strippers fault, as though that somehow explains the violent and explicit email sent by one of the team. I guess a black man broke into his account and sent it.

This is exactly what the University deserves for allowing feminists to run the campus in the first place, while stifling the healthy political and social views of heterosexual men. Organized feminism is about women and trial lawyers using sex to make money from a pedestal of feigned Victorian purity. And, Duke has about as much money as the state of North Carolina has.

...Our stripper is a student at a North Carolina Central University. Colleges are famous for mandatory hyper-feminist coursework featuring lawyers and feminist activists that teach women how to use sex to take advantage of men and any institution that involves men.

... My message to men and real women on college campuses everywhere: Stay away from feminists and strippers. The last thing you want to date is a girl who studies feminism. Be sure she believes in equal rights for men to be in the family. Make certain she rejects feminism before even asking her out on a date. Get to know her previous boyfriend to find out why they broke up. If she says he is a jerk but he isn’t, you probably have a feminist on your hands.



I did look up the NOW website, hoping to find figures for rape and the reporting of rape, unfortunately the only figures I could find where unattributed on a fact-sheet that doesn't say when it was produced, so effectively useless. Anyone got any better ideas?
 
 
matthew.
14:04 / 16.04.06
If she says he is a jerk but he isn’t, you probably have a feminist on your hands.

Conflation of feminism and "man-hating" is very tiresome. I encounter this at work from female workers as well as male.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
14:13 / 16.04.06
Colleges are famous for mandatory hyper-feminist coursework featuring lawyers and feminist activists that teach women how to use sex to take advantage of men and any institution that involves men.

It's all the fault of book-larnin', giving these women ideas above their station.

Christ, what a cock.
 
 
Baz Auckland
01:35 / 18.04.06
2 players indicted by a grand jury on charges...

...but it's not known yet who, and what charges. They'll release the infomation when they arrest them...
 
 
ShadowSax
13:13 / 18.04.06
charges are sexual assault and kidnapping, according to a recent report on the radio. both are out on $400,000 bail.

the ACFC quote is typical. "stay away from strippers and feminists", that sort of thing, is typical. on the one hand, it's true. it's also true that you should stay away from lawyers if you're discussing money laundering at the bar with your buddies.

on the other hand, of course, the issue isnt being around feminists or strippers, it's doing something illegal.

as opposed to the custody situations, this situation is strictly criminal. despite the protests, the inflammatory language, etc, the facts of this case will likely be dealt with in a criminal court, before a jury. so it's less likely that a crime will be invented in this case (as they sometimes are in family court situations, with no jury, with more narrow institutionalized biases. in other words, the problem isnt environment (being around "feminists" when you commit a crime), it's the crime.

this is all very obvious. and while it might be valid to compare that response to the "advocate"s response to the immigration problem (as noted on another board) as representative of a feminist point of view that is inherently wrong simply be being onesided, i thought i'd point out that not all malegenderrightsadvocates agree with the ACFC's quote.
 
 
*
17:02 / 18.04.06
Duke case reopens wounds for Black women

The young black women can almost finish each other’s stories.

They go to a party, a concert, a nightclub. Twenty-somethings of all colors are flirting and dancing. And then it happens.

Inevitably, a woman says, a white man asks her to dance erotically while he watches. Or he grabs her rear end. Or asks for sex, in graphic detail, without bothering to ask her name.

“We can sort of count on it happening. My friends from California and New York and Boston all tell the same stories,” said 22-year-old Danielle Terrazas Williams, a graduate student at Duke University. “They’re watching you as if you’re performing for them, and it’s disgusting. You just sort of feel like, ‘Is this all we’re good for?”’

Black women have been talking about this for a long time now, but the conversation has heated up since accusations surfaced that white Duke lacrosse players raped a black student they had hired as a stripper and shouted racial slurs at her.
...
The discussions started with the Duke incident but quickly turned toward larger concerns of black women, and in some cases widened into a discussion of sexual assaults in general, with white women joining in to express their concerns.

The facts about the Duke case remain in doubt, but the image of a black woman stripping for a room full of white athletes shouting racial epithets is painful to many black women.

This woman may be a stripper, but that is not all she is, black woman say. She is also a student and a working mother.

“If she’s a stripper, she becomes part of a seedy underworld,” Williams said. “What would the story look like if the headline had said, ‘Lacrosse team allegedly gang-raped and strangled a mother of two?”’
 
 
ShadowSax
18:27 / 18.04.06
listen, the south is fucked. it really is. i would never send one of my children to a school in the south simply because racism is taken such for granted there. not that it's limited to the south, but it's certainly a broader problem there.

yes, this stripper is a student and a working mother, but she's also a stripper. yes, these players are students and athletes, but they also hired a stripper. i was talking to my partner about this case this morning, and she waved her hand around and said that any idiot who goes to strip at a party full of idiot college athletes without some muscle is an idiot.

she didnt deserve to be raped, no one does. but let's not create for the sake of this discussion a world where the men hiring the strippers are men hiring strippers and the women stripping are mothers and students.

and i have a hard time believing that black women are the only women violated at nightclubs.

if i walk into a gay bar in the village and some guy asks me to give him head in the parking lot without even asking my name first, do i have the right to claim either racism or sexism or anything else? isnt it (sometimes) simply one person being an asshole and another person being in the wrong place at the wrong time?

i'm sorry if this offends anyone. i'm just trying to ask questions.
 
 
illmatic
19:04 / 18.04.06
yes, this stripper is a student and a working mother, but she's also a stripper...let's not create for the sake of this discussion a world where the men hiring the strippers are men hiring strippers and the women stripping are mothers and students

So, we can't discuss economic necessity as a role in the sex trade? And power as an issue that effects workers and consumers of this trade?

.... best not as this might bring as back to inequality, and as we've established, the real victims of this are men.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
19:06 / 18.04.06
but let's not create for the sake of this discussion a world where the men hiring the strippers are men hiring strippers and the women stripping are mothers and students.

We don't need to 'create' a world where the women stripping are mothers and students- that is the world. Strippers are mothers, students, daughters, sisters. All of them are people when they're working or not, and they shouldn't be expected to 'hire muscle' (during a job that pays surprisingly little anyway), and they really shouldn't be called idiots for not doing so. Strippers who perform private dances are more often than not put into situations with rowdy, drunk guys, at bachelor parties and the like, and 99.99999% of the time these same guys can be relied on to observe the basic 'look but don't touch' ettiquette that exotic dancers expect.
Secondly, there are two question marks in your post, both contained in a paragraph mostly unrelated to the Duke case in which nobody would argue with you (yes, anybody of any race, gender or sexuality who approaches a stranger and asks them for sexual favors is out of line). You're not 'asking questions' here, you're making statements: that almost every woman doing private dances is an 'idiot' for not hiring 'muscle' and that women who strip are only strippers and can expect unwanted sexual attention (obviously more than most other professions, but it still strikes me as the 'she was asking for it, dressed up like that' non-defence for any rape).
Now please say something about ad hominem attacks, wait a few days, post something ugly about women, and repeat.
 
 
illmatic
19:10 / 18.04.06
... and your partners uninformed and unsympathetic comments aren't welcome either. Putting odious comments into someone else's mouth doesn't make them less odious.

"Well, they didn't do anything wrong... and even if they did, she's partly to blame ... she knew what she was getting into"
 
 
ShadowSax
19:24 / 18.04.06
ill, who are you quoting there? not me. in that bold type. you dont think it would have been a good idea for a stripper to show up at a huge party with some protection?

phexette, you're leaving off half my point. yes, strippers are mothers and students. they're also strippers. and people hiring them are people as well.

if a person walks into a party with drunken kids and expects to be treated well, that person is sometimes mistaken, whoever he or she is. that doesnt justify ANY CRIME. is that clear?

if she was assaulted, she was right to file charges, and if she was assaulted, i hope the assaulters are tried, convicted and sentenced.

with the "idiot" and "muscle", those are simply conversational terms. it's not uncommon AT ALL for strippers to bring someone to help out.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:27 / 18.04.06
yes, this stripper is a student and a working mother, but she's also a stripper.

Which means what, precisely? That she's immoral, 'sluttish'? That because she agreed to dance and remove her clothes, it's open season on her body? Are you implying that rape is somehow less traumatic or more forgivable if the victim works in the sex trade?
 
 
ShadowSax
19:57 / 18.04.06
Which means what, precisely? That she's immoral, 'sluttish'? That because she agreed to dance and remove her clothes, it's open season on her body? Are you implying that rape is somehow less traumatic or more forgivable if the victim works in the sex trade?

no no no. did you read my whole post?

you're so far off base.

if you have an actual question to ask that i didnt answer in the very same post that you're quoting (partially) from, then please, go ahead and ask it.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
19:58 / 18.04.06
I think ShadowSax is being responded to harshly here, based on a prior perception of his views. I genuinely don't feel his most recent posts above were intended the way they are being interpreted here, and I think other interpretations are readily available. You've got to give someone a fair shot, unless you think he's halfway out the airlock and you just want to give him the final kick.
 
 
ibis the being
20:07 / 18.04.06
I was listening to NPR this morning and they listed the names of the men charged as well as the charges. That story here. The defendents named are Reade Seligmann and Collin Finnerty, and the DA wants to indict one more person, but so far the evidence doesn't permit that.

CNN has a similar update here.

Both stories mention that although the defense argues the DNA evidence doesn't support the accusation, the DA notes that 75 to 80 percent of rape prosecutions lack DNA evidence. The radio report I heard also stated that more DNA testing is being done at a private testing facility and the results are not yet in. Both stories also mention that the lacrosse team was seen by school officials as having had too many disciplinary violations in the last year or so and that's a big factor in the decision to cancel the season.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
20:34 / 18.04.06
It's the women's fault they get raped.

Upon finding 40 men at the party instead of the four for whom she agreed to "dance," she stayed and performed anyway. When the partygoers began shouting what she described as racial epithets and violent threats, she left but returned after an apology from a team member. A stripper with street smarts is apparently a Hollywood myth.
 
 
ShadowSax
20:37 / 18.04.06
dont you think you're kind of misquoting that wsj editorial? "it's the woman's fault"?

it's more complex than that. i hope people read the actual article instead of just relying on your clips.
 
 
matthew.
20:58 / 18.04.06
I don't think it's a misquote. I think that's the flavour of the article.

feminism may be partly to blame
Hmm...
 
 
alas
21:31 / 18.04.06
It's a little more complex than that, but not much. The title of the article is, Ladies,* You Should Know Better: How feminism wages war on common sense.

Once again I find myself wanting people to read Mary Gaitskill's wise thoughts about date rape. She explores exactly this issue, and quite "critically" I think you'll find:

Feminists who postulate that boys must obtain a spelled-out "yes" before having sex are trying to establish rules, cut in stone, that will apply to any and every encounter and that every responsible person must obey. The new rule resembles the old good girl/bad girl rule not only because of its implicit suggestion that girls have to be protected but also because of its absolute nature, its iron-fisted denial of complexity and ambiguity. I bristle at such a rule and so do a lot of other people. But should we really be so puzzled and indignant that another rule has been presented? If people have been brought up believing that to be responsible is to obey certain rules, what are they going to do with a can of worms like "date rape" except try to make new rules that they see as more fair or useful than the old ones?

But the "rape-crisis feminists" are not the only absolutists here; their critics play the same game. Camille Paglia, author of Sexual Personae, has stated repeatedly that any girl who goes alone into a frat house and proceeds to tank up is cruising for a gang bang, and if she doesn't know that, well, then she's "an idiot." The remark is most striking not for its crude unkindness but for its reductive solipsism. It assumes that all college girls have had the same life experiences as Paglia, and have come to the same conclusions about them.

By the time I got to college, I'd been living away from home for years and had been around the block several times. I never went to a frat house, but I got involved with men who lived in rowdy "boy houses" reeking of dirty socks and rock and roll. I would go over, drink, and spend the night with my lover of the moment; it never occurred to me that I was in danger of being gang-raped, and if I had been, I would have been shocked and badly hurt. My experience, though some of it had been bad, hadn't led me to conclude that boys plus alcohol equals gang bang, and I was not naive or idiotic. Katie Roiphe, author of The Morning After: Fear, Sex, and Feminism on Campus, criticizes girls who, in her view, create a myth of false innocence: "But did these twentieth-century girls, raised on Madonna videos and the six o'clock news, really trust that people were good until they themselves were raped? Maybe. Were these girls, raised on horror movies and glossy Hollywood sex scenes, really as innocent as all that?" I am sympathetic to Roiphe's annoyance, but I'm surprised that a smart chick like her apparently doesn't know that people process information and imagery (like Madonna videos and the news) with a complex subjectivity that doesn't in any predictable way alter their ideas about what they can expect from life.

Roiphe and Paglia are not exactly invoking rules, but their comments seem to derive from a belief that everyone except idiots interprets information and experience in the same way. In that sense, they are not so different in attitude from those ladies* dedicated to establishing feminist-based rules and regulations for sex. Such rules, just like the old rules, assume a certain psychological uniformity of experience, a right way.

The accusatory and sometimes painfully emotional rhetoric conceals an attempt not only to make new rules but also to codify experience. The "rape-crisis feminists" obviously speak for many women and girls who have been raped or have felt raped in a wide variety of circumstances. They would not get so much play if they were not addressing a widespread and real experience of violation and hurt. By asking, "Were they really so innocent?" Roiphe doubts the veracity of the experience she presumes to address because it doesn't square with hers or with that of her friends. Having not felt violated herself--even though she says she has had an experience that many would now call date rape--she cannot understand, or even quite believe, that anyone else would feel violated in similar circumstances. She therefore believes all the fuss to be a political ploy or, worse, a retrograde desire to return to crippling ideals of helpless femininity. In turn, Roiphe's detractors, who have not had her more sanguine "morning after" experience, believe her to be ignorant and callous, or a secret rape victim in deep denial. Both camps, believing their own experience to be the truth, seem unwilling to acknowledge the emotional truth on the other side.


I get irritated by the kind of straw man feminism I see invoked by articles like the one linked to above, because people like Gaitskill and others have been exploring just these issues for years, in complex ways, but are pretty much ignored.

When feminism is brought up in the mainstream media, it is almost always derided in just this way: there's Andrea Dworkin (the most convenient straw woman ever invented, apparently), and then there's the rest of the feminists, who apparently all insist that women are just like men.

The odd thing is that feminism may be partly to blame. Time magazine reporter Barrett Seaman explains that many of the college women he interviewed for his book "Binge" (2005) "saw drinking as a gender equity issue; they have as much right as the next guy to belly up to the bar."

Note that this is college women, not necessarily feminists. (Indeed, many college women will make exactly this kind of claim just after saying, "I'm not a feminist but...") And note that they are not saying, "Women can drink as much as men." I hear them saying that bars should not be seen as "male" territory.

Second, even assuming that the women are talking about consuming alcohol as a mode of expressing feminism, I am not convinced that they are getting this idea about consuming as empowerment primarily from feminism but from a kind of marketing that feminists have been critiquing for at least a decade. Look at the way, e.g., Virginia Slims cigarettes were so long marketed: "you've come a long way baby." They deliberately use the language of freedom and equlity that feminist argument is grounded in to sell the idea that smoking cigarettes equals a kind of freedom. The tactic is typically masked more sophisticatedly in ads today, but it's the underlying argument of much of marketing directed at women. Susan Bordo makes an excellent argument to this effect, using dozens of ads in her book Unbearable Weight, and Jean Kilborne does a much less nuanced case, but with tons of examples, in her videos, Killing Us Softly.

Leaving biology aside--most women's bodies can't take as much alcohol as men's--the fact of the matter is that men simply are not, to use the phrase of another generation, "taken advantage of" in the way women are.

Why is this? Their bodies are permeable, in fact, but adult men's bodies are socially constructed as much less permeable in most Western cultures. Why is that?

Radical feminists used to warn that men are evil and dangerous. Andrea Dworkin made a career of it. But that message did not seem reconcilable with another core feminist notion--that women should be liberated from social constraints, especially those that require them to behave differently from men. So the first message was dropped and the second took over.

The radical-feminist message was of course wrongheaded--most men are harmless,


(Hmmm. Most people are quite capable of inflicting harm, isn't that her point? And almost anyone who is in a position where they have virutally unquestioned power is likely to be dangerous--look at Abu Ghraib. Those people were not "brutes" but nor were they "harmless" in that situation. But hasn't her claim been that to not realize that people are not in fact "harmless" is to be devoid of common sense?)

even those who play lacrosse--but it could be useful as a worst-case scenario for young women today. There is an alternative, but to paraphrase Miss Manners: People who need to be told to use their common sense probably didn't have much to begin with.

Aren't they silly? Why it's just so obvious that life is more complex than what these crazy feminists say! Feminism is thus, conveniently, both laughably silly and dangerous: Stay away from anyone who calls herself as feminist! She's crazy! (If a feminist looks you in the eyes, she can hypnotize you, you know!)

*Much as I like Gaitskill, I really hate the word "ladies" in any context, even though in context this usage makes a little sense. Here, as in the WSJ article that inspired this response, it still seems designed to insult/belittle an argument rather than to take it on its own terms.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
21:44 / 18.04.06
Just for reference here. As I've said on Policy, I'm having trouble posting but I want to get this down.

When I read ShadowSax's posts above, I did not interpret them as others did, and I do think that others on this thread have grasped at the most negative possible interpretation, based on their expectations of ShadowSax. (Which is understandable really.) However, in the interests of fairness I do want to point out that I think those posts can be interpreted as having a less problematic meaning, and I think that meaning was the one intended by ShadowSax.


SS: let's not create for the sake of this discussion a world where the men hiring the strippers are men hiring strippers and the women stripping are mothers and students.

What I took from this is the suggestion that it's unbalanced reporting or discussion to refer to a stripper in emotive and positive terms as (for instance) "this was someone's daughter, someone's sister", while you refer to the person who employed that stripper as "the jock who paid her" rather than "someone's brother, someone's son".

That seems reasonable to me. I don't know if anyone on this thread or in the linked reports was perpetuating any such imbalance in the terminology they used, but it's not an outrageous point in my opinion.

ShadowSax's post was challenged as follows:

"We don't need to 'create' a world where the women stripping are mothers and students- that is the world. Strippers are mothers, students, daughters, sisters"

- which I think he would agree with; he was suggesting (I think) that obviously, everyone is someone's child, and that to stress family relationships only in terms of the stripper is not balanced reporting.

"Which means what, precisely? That she's immoral, 'sluttish'? That because she agreed to dance and remove her clothes, it's open season on her body? Are you implying that rape is somehow less traumatic or more forgivable if the victim works in the sex trade?"

- which I don't feel he was actually saying or suggesting at all.

In fact, to be fair, and I really think it's important to be fair when someone's on trial and up for banning, ShadowSax made unambiguous statements right above:

she didnt deserve to be raped, no one does

that doesnt justify ANY CRIME. is that clear?

if she was assaulted, she was right to file charges, and if she was assaulted, i hope the assaulters are tried, convicted and sentenced.


I don't really know why those statements were ignored. Instead, his post was met with the following responses-

".... best not as this might bring as back to inequality, and as we've established, the real victims of this are men."

"Now please say something about ad hominem attacks, wait a few days, post something ugly about women, and repeat."

-which I honestly think are quite unhelpful in terms of putting a set of negative expectations on someone, which they're then quite likely to resentfully, defensively live up to.

(Again, I can understand the precedent and the reasons. I just really feel there's no advantage in pushing someone who is causing problems into a corner where they have very little option but to live up to your worst expectations, and cannot get out to show any different kind of behaviour.)

If ShadowSax is condemned and thought guilty already, fair enough I suppose and he doesn't deserve even-handed treatment anymore. If he is "on trial" then I think fairness is especially important right now.
 
 
ibis the being
22:04 / 18.04.06
Can we please keep discussion of ShadowSax's motivations and/or "trial" in the Policy thread? This is massively distracting from the topic at hand, which is the allegations of rape against Duke lacrosse players and the subsequent reactions and commentaries on that case in the media. I thought alas was just beginning to take us in a more productive direction.
 
 
alas
22:58 / 18.04.06
I hope people will respond to my post, as I did put quite a bit of effort into it, and am genuinely interested in engaging on the topic at hand and am NOT very interested in having this thread be all about ShadowSax.

Oh, and If anyone wants a copy of the gaitskill piece, I can, as usual, supply. Just pm me.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
04:42 / 19.04.06
Mary Gaitskill = a champion.

Can I clarify something here? We are not talking about 'men who hire stripppers', we're talking about some guys who thought it was okay to have sex with the stripper they hired without asking. They raped her. They were the consumers in the situation -- the people calling the shots, the people with power, they had numbers and physical strength on their side. The woman was at work. She was trying to earn money.

I think that matters. According to the logic that says she was responsible for her own safety, even by going to the house without security, those men are simply not responsible for their behaviour at all. Why? Because they're men. Supposedly, all men (definitely all fratboys) will seize on a woman who is working for them as a stripper and assume that she is happy to give sexual service as well. Supposedly, women should just take responsibility for that, and spend part of their earnings on hiring security. Particularly women of colour and poor women, for whom racialisation and class dynamics renders the possibility of justice or retribution less likely, and therefore makes potential assaulters more likely to assault.

Apologist comments for ShadowSax's attempts to blame the victim for her need to earn money are making me even more mad than the original statements. I am reading perfectly clearly, and I know exactly what i am seeing here. And it's fucking despicable.
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
11:56 / 19.04.06
I guess my opinion about the whole thing is; a rape victims case shouldn't be judged as any better or worse whether she's a nun or a stripper - there's no need to make distinctions about the moral worth of a person based on there job/social status/whatever. To claim otherwise is a debased view, wrong wrong wrong.

By the same token - no distinction should be made between a rape defendant who's a frat boy and one who's a captain of industry. Innocent until proven guilty is still the rule of law, isn't it Mister Disco?
 
 
illmatic
12:19 / 19.04.06
Math, I think the point a lot of people have been trying to make is that her role as a stripper is relevant to the case. It's entirely possible the fact she takes her clothes off would be used against her by defense lawyers, for instance, or that her role caused the accuseed to feel a sense of sexual entitlement. It's also relevant if one wants to consider the wider climate of sexual discrimation and inequality and ask what economic circumstances would make someone do that kind of job.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
13:05 / 19.04.06
Can I clarify something here? We are not talking about 'men who hire stripppers', we're talking about some guys who thought it was okay to have sex with the stripper they hired without asking. They raped her.

I thought this was a rape accusation? Has what you're saying been proven?

My point above was only about a balance in the way people are described (assuming the men in the case are accused of rape rather than found guilty of it, which I think does make a difference).


Apologist comments for ShadowSax's attempts to blame the victim for her need to earn money are making me even more mad than the original statements. I am reading perfectly clearly, and I know exactly what i am seeing here. And it's fucking despicable.

I hope you don't mean I'm trying to defend anyone who blames the victim. I was seeking only to point out that I felt a single statement had been interpreted "wrongly", or in any case differently from the way I interpreted it and the way I believe it was intended.

But if you think I am doing something despicable here, please PM me as I'd like to know. I'm going to get off this thread because, as has been pointed out, I was arguably derailing it.
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
14:20 / 19.04.06
The comment above about 75-80% of rape cases being won by the prosecution without DNA evidence has me wondering.

I think a lack of DNA evidence is different from negative matching DNA evidence. I don't know a ton about the science side of the legal system besides what I see on CSI, but given that the prosecution must have had SOMETHING to test the teams DNA against, and the fact that it didn't match, would seem to be pretty damaging to a case they are trying to build.

Of course when they did the room searches they may have found someone camera phone pictures of the attack happening, in which case the visual evidence would trump the negative DNA evidence.
 
 
ShadowSax
15:12 / 19.04.06
The comment above about 75-80% of rape cases being won by the prosecution without DNA evidence has me wondering.

it might also be that most of those large majority of cases didnt need DNA evidence to convict. based on the fact that some wacko can claim that a one-in-a-million match doesnt define probable cause, it might be that prosecutors who dont need DNA evidence to convict simply dont use it.

there has to be SOME evidence. an arrest is a long way from an accusation. enough time has passed that perhaps there is something we might not trust coming from the police and the DA, but they have something.
 
 
ibis the being
19:16 / 19.04.06
I think a lack of DNA evidence is different from negative matching DNA evidence. I don't know a ton about the science side of the legal system besides what I see on CSI, but given that the prosecution must have had SOMETHING to test the teams DNA against, and the fact that it didn't match, would seem to be pretty damaging to a case they are trying to build.

That's not what happened here. This is from District Attorney Nifong, quoted in Spyder link on p1 -

"It doesn't mean nothing happened. It just means nothing was left behind," he said, noting that is common in sexual assault cases. Further DNA testing could provide more leads in the investigation, he said.

And as I mentioned upthread, further DNA testing is currently being done in a private facility and the results are not yet in.

There are other kinds of evidence that could convict a defendent of rape besides DNA. There must be at least SOME evidence that appears to incriminate the players if the grand jury was able to hand down an indictment (I can tell you firsthand as I've served on a grand jury for criminal cases). Right now one of the most damning bits of evidence is that the alleged victim was able to point to the three defendents in a photo lineup, out of 46 white male party guests, and that the timestamps on her picks were consistent with the time that she would have been in the bathroom allegedly being raped and assaulted (the defendents, by the way, claim she was painting her nails for those 27 minutes in the bathroom).
 
 
ShadowSax
19:25 / 19.04.06
That's not what happened here. This is from District Attorney Nifong, quoted in Spyder link on p1 -

i didnt say it was. i was talking about the 75-80% of rape cases where there is no DNA evidence used to convict.

i agree with everything else you're saying. the grand jury had enough to indict, so there must be some evidence. we'll have to wait and see.
 
 
ibis the being
19:33 / 19.04.06
Just to clarify, I was responding to Elijah, whom I quoted at the outset of my post.
 
 
Ganesh
22:31 / 19.04.06
Can I clarify something here? We are not talking about 'men who hire stripppers', we're talking about some guys who thought it was okay to have sex with the stripper they hired without asking. They raped her.

Apologies if I'm slow in following the investigation, but shouldn't there be at least one "allegedly" in there somewhere? For possible libel's sake, if nothing else.
 
 
Triumvir
00:49 / 20.04.06
Can I clarify something here? We are not talking about 'men who hire stripppers', we're talking about some guys who thought it was okay to have sex with the stripper they hired without asking. They raped her. They were the consumers in the situation -- the people calling the shots, the people with power, they had numbers and physical strength on their side. The woman was at work. She was trying to earn money.

I'm not going to attempt to carry ShadowSax's standard here, but I just wanted to reply to this one comment. I think what was being discussed was that the allegations of rape were skewing our view of the situation in that we were looking at the victim in a far more sympathatic light -- emphasizing that she was just trying to make a living and was a valid person outside her being a stripper -- than the frat-boys -- who we were defining by their alledged actions rather than looking at them as well as people, people whose lives could be ruined for something they may not have even done.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
11:58 / 20.04.06
Ganesh, yes, maybe there should be an 'allegedly' in there somewhere. However my point still stands, which is that in a situation like this you cannot really evaluate the consumers of sexwork, and the sexworker herself, as 'just people' as if there was some kind of equivalence of power relations. It's not so. Capitalism makes it not so, let alone the gender and race politics of the situation.
 
  

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