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Rape accusation against Duke lacrosse team

 
  

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Ticker
12:46 / 31.05.06
Regarding the women's team's behavior, it indicates a serious problem of prejudice on the part of that group. If the University was to censor the behavior from the public eye, we might not know how serious an issue we have to deal with.


If the goal is to believe innocent until proven guilty these people need to be educated in how their public statement both undermines that ideal as well as degrades the alleged victim.

For example, if I met someone sporting that bracelet I can engage them in hopefully meaningful dialogue. I can now have dialogue with other people about the issue.

I personally do not believe censorship improves anything. If the University issued a statement that said they found the bracelets offensive (and why) but upheld freedom of speech in allowing the team to wear them we would have the best of both worlds.

There are many beliefs I find horribly offensive but I believe this is what I must endure when I say I am tolerant of others. Tolerance does not apply to those you agree with, it applies to those you would rather punch in the face and stamp on their nasty signs.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:56 / 31.05.06
If the University issued a statement that said they found the bracelets offensive (and why) but upheld freedom of speech in allowing the team to wear them we would have the best of both worlds.

Right. We don't have that, though, do we? Whereas, as I believe I mentioned, I believe that the reaction of the University would have been different if the alleged victim had been another student. So, what's the take-out here? It seems to me that the University, by permitting the display, has arbitrarily coincided with your views on freedom of speech, but without coinciding ideologically.

Censorship's a tricky thing, however. If a member of the team turned up in the kit of a riival University, or naked, or in a tracksuit, the University would not allow them to go out and represent Duke University in that garb, or lack thereof, in a lacrosse match. So, how do these armbands differ? Because armbands are in themselves a form of attire in lacrosse? How about, to Godwinise a little, a Nazi armband? Would that be OK if it were made of flannel, but not otherwise?
 
 
Ticker
13:27 / 31.05.06
Haus...

...Godwin's Law really does apply to these discussions. In this case it makes it hard for me to believe that you and I are engaged in a thoughtful exchange of views when you present that argument. The issue with bringing things to levels of ultimate evil is you deprive others of the ability to say anything meaningful in response. You have intentionally placed me in a position where I must defend something I find abhorrent as a test of my convictions. So be it I will try.

I do believe that freedom of speech must be upheld, as without it useful cultural dialogue ceases. If the alleged victim was another student of the university I would expect the same behavior from the University. If it was altered (the cry of outrage louder) that would need to be addressed.

The form the speech takes is important as well. The bracelets do not interfere with the act the group is undertaking. If a player showed up in garb that was distracting to the other players (or none at all) that maybe a technical issue for the game to continue. Do I believe a naked player should be allowed to play? No they have to wear clothing as it is a physical sporting event. Do I believe someone wearing a Nazi armband/other team's gear should be allowed to play? I believe it depends on the team's athletic contract for behavior. Should the person be forced to remove the item(s) while attending the game as a spectator? Certainly not.

a more useful question is why has the University not spoken on the issue of the women's team's behavior? Have other students called them on their blind allegiance? Is there an atmosphere of dialogue happening there that has not occured before?
 
 
Ticker
13:30 / 31.05.06
An article describing the review of the wristbands
 
 
Ticker
13:41 / 31.05.06
In briefly googling the wristband topic I have found several great discussions happening. I feel this is very important as it is getting the issue of justice versus solidarity raised. It is my opinion that the offense of the wristband is being balanced by productive dialogue.

A blog with a lot of comments about it

A sports-law blog about it


I did look for but could not find anything on the University's POV regarding the bracelets. So I'll email 'em.
 
 
Ticker
13:44 / 31.05.06
also has anyone posted this link to the official Duke blurb site?

Duke's PR site on the Rape
 
 
Ticker
13:55 / 31.05.06
Regarding your question about the University's response because of the alleged victim's school I found this:

All senior leaders in Duke's Division of Student Affairs have made contact with their counterparts at NCCU. A meeting between Duke Student Affairs Vice President Larry Moneta and NCCU Student Affairs Vice President Roland Gaines and their respective chief of staffs will take place in early April on NCCU's campus. The discussion focused on working together to manage rising tensions within each institutions' student bodies. That group intends to continue meeting and to encourage their respective students to meet for ongoing dialogues.




Duke & NCCU talks

It seems to me that Duke is well aware of the ugly potential of not caring as much about a student at NCCU as one of their own.
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
14:35 / 31.05.06
How about, to Godwinise a little, a Nazi armband?

For someone who has in the past accused others of brinksmanship, does this not smell not unlike brinksmanship?
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
14:51 / 31.05.06
The team members could have avoided having their decision attacked if they’d chosen a different slogan such as Justice for All. Isn’t that what we are all supposed to want? It doesn’t bash anybody and doesn’t label any innocent person as a liar.

Strong Truth. There shouldn't be a problem with a show a solidarity, but one that doesn't respect the rights of the victim puts an ugly smear across said show.

However, I think the gender of the team in question shouldn't be used to attack the message. The original bloggers point, But really, this is not only an example of how (white in this case) women are complicit in their own oppression but also involved in the silencing and vicitimization of women of color., doesn't hold much water for me. If, say, the Duke Basketball team (who have four african american players) wore similar armbands, would they be responsible for the oppresion of "women of colour"? Same for the womens basketball team? Or, like the female lax team, would they be supporting thier peers and friends?

It's a difficult question.

Another possible armband could have said "Innocent until proven guilty?", or is this still problematic?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
15:04 / 31.05.06
If, say, the Duke Basketball team (who have four african american players) wore similar armbands, would they be responsible for the oppresion of "women of colour"?

The original blogger might wish to point to them being complicit in their oppression on the grounds of colour, sure.

Same for the womens basketball team?

Gender and colour, sure. I'm not sure what clever point you're aiming for here?

Or, like the female lax team, would they be supporting thier peers and friends?

And that's another interpretation, which you are not the first in this thread to offer.

Another possible armband could have said "Innocent until proven guilty?", or is this still problematic?

Nope. I'd certainly prefer that the women's lacrosse team would stand up for a fair trial rather than their university colleague's innocence.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:03 / 31.05.06
If the alleged victim was another student of the university I would expect the same behavior from the University.

Is this "expect" in the sense that you believe that this would occur, or in the sense that this is the behaviour that would fit your moral expectations of how an institution ought to behave? Only I can say with reasonable confidence that the team would not have taken to the field wearing armbands calling a member of the University currently involved in a rape investigation as the appparent victim with the blessing of the University.

Which is, incidentally, why the Nazi armband seemed a useful comparison. Does it distract other people from the game? No more or less than one might be distracted by armbands referencing an ongoing investigation of rape. Quite possibly less so, in fact - you're seeing the Swastika as a symbol of ultimate evil, but the evil it represents is quite distance from the life of Duke University, whereas it is perfectly possible that a woman lining up against them might have at some time in the past been the victim of sexual violence, or been accused of falsifyiing a claim of sexual violence. So, one might by wearing this armband gain an unfair advantage in simple sporting terms, by causing emotional distress to an opponent who was not unreasonably not expecting to have to deal with the idea of rape, alleged or otherwise, on the lacrosse field. So, I don't think your distinctions are entirely coherent. My aim in employing the Swastika was not brinksmanship (note to Mathlete: try to make post to thread about subject of thread, rather than about me, no matter how exciting you find me. Cheers), but rather to summon up something extremely offensive but with no contextual link to the events portrayed, and, of course, to reference that stomach-turning blog post. My intention was not to force you to defend ultimate evil - it might be best not to speculate too hard about my motivation when I can save you time by being asked it - but rather to provide a usefully stripped-down example of an unambiguously offensive but unrelated piece of statement-wear. However, I realise that I picked an extreme example, and one which has its own considerable baggage, for which I apologise - it was very late at night, I think.

So, you may believe that the productive discussion engendered by this action justifies the action itself, but this seems both highly subjective and also entirely post factum. The L.A riots may well have ushered in opportunities for exciting new discourse about the (totally equal) opportunities of African-Americans in Los Angeles (and everywhere else, except for a few isolated communities), but does that mean that they were themselves a good thing?

On:

Regarding your question about the University's response because of the alleged victim's school I found this:

I asked no such question. I asked whether they would have been permitted to wear armbands calling a member of their own University, rather than a member of the former North Carolian College for Negroes down the road, a liar. You expect that they would, which conviction I have addressed above.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:07 / 31.05.06
Incidentally:

a more useful question is why has the University not spoken on the issue of the women's team's behavior?

They have. Challenging is not quite the word for the stance they have adopted, however.
 
 
Ticker
17:04 / 31.05.06
Thank you for the link on Duke's response. I am hoping to get more information on their stance than 'allowing'. I'd like to know their reasons for allowing it as well.

Is this "expect" in the sense that you believe that this would occur, or in the sense that this is the behaviour that would fit your moral expectations of how an institution ought to behave?

I believe given the relationship (as outlined by Duke) between the two universities that the reaction would be the same. If it was not, the regard and close relationship as outlined in the PR would be revealed to be false.

The reason I dislike your use of the Nazi armband example is that I find it to be more extreme than necessary for the sake of this thread.
I do not believe freedom of speech is incompatible with social responsibility. Often people use it as such but it should not negate the core freedom.

you're seeing the Swastika as a symbol of ultimate evil, but the evil it represents is quite distance from the life of Duke University

Quite to the contrary, I believe the evil of genocide, of dehumanizing ethnicities, and rampant blind nationalism is very close to the life of the University and the rest of us in the Western world.

Personally I believe that nonviolent expressions of opinion are welcome in the public forum. I would draw the distinction between the LA riots and the armband wearing upon this.

University, whereas it is perfectly possible that a woman lining up against them might have at some time in the past been the victim of sexual violence, or been accused of falsifyiing a claim of sexual violence. So, one might by wearing this armband gain an unfair advantage in simple sporting terms, by causing emotional distress to an opponent who was not unreasonably not expecting to have to deal with the idea of rape, alleged or otherwise, on the lacrosse field.

Sadly the culture I exist in does not care about bombarding a woman with symbols of sexual violence. It is in the entertainment, it is in the news, it is in the streets. If a player wished to complain about the armband wearing as a distraction, I would hope the U.S Lacrosse body would rule that no statements of any kind could be made using the armbands. I'm not looking for sanitization for a symptom, I'm looking for the roots of the disease.

Ultimately I would rather have people express themselves and so be unmasked in their racists, sexiest, elitist agendas than to repress those agendas and hope they will go away quietly. In my experience it has been only when I have voiced a prejudice that I can see the falsehood of it when it is challenged. In discussing prejudices with other people it is only on the personal level that the worst of these assumptions can be changed.

Repressing the armbands may have removed the opinion of the women's team from the spotlight but then I do not believe that the underlying opinion would have been addressed.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:19 / 31.05.06
Sadly the culture I exist in does not care about bombarding a woman with symbols of sexual violence. It is in the entertainment, it is in the news, it is in the streets.

And, until about now, it was not in the game of women's lacrosse. I'm not sure what your argument here is - that because sexual violence against women is too often referenced in our experience, it matters not at all when it is introduced into areas previously untaunted by it - or possibly that it should be encouraged, if it helps to bring some prejudice out into the open, in which case I'm afraid that my original example becomes more relevant again. I simply do not get the connection. Possibly you mean that a little bit more referencing of sexual violence against women is worth it in exchange for bringing out into the open.... well, what? There seems to be no evidence that the women's lacrosse team has rethought their position, or faced any criticism. If you have better information than I, I would be happy to hear it, but the way the Duke University authorities disclaimed responsibility suggests to me that perhaps (whisper it) the PR about Duke and NCCU's firm friendship may be canted a little towards news management. Simply put, this doesn't seem to be taking the issue very seriously.
 
 
Ticker
18:05 / 31.05.06
I would argue that it is in the game of lacrosse and in all levels of our society where women place themselves in the public forum. The topic would have followed them into the field even without the bracelets as it is. Sexual violence towards women doesn't obey polite lines of 'now an issue' vs. 'not an issue'.
It is certainly in the schools, in the classes, in the dorms of these people.

To me repressing the views of the women's team does not seem to be taking their opinion's very seriously either. They maybe socially irresponsible for proclaiming 'Innocent' instead of 'Justice for All', but they are still a valued voice of the community, no matter how repugnant we find that voice to be.

I believe (and please do correct me if I am wrong) your greater hostility in this matter is that by allowing the women to wear these bands the University is implying they agree with the 'Innocent' statement. that the University is in fact endorsing the show of solidarity rather than the responsible action.

What is Duke doing about the critical, sometimes incorrect, things being stated about the allegations in the media or by students and faculty?

The university is guided by principles of openness, inclusiveness, mutual tolerance and mutual respect. We fully support the constitutional right to free speech, even if that speech is critical of the university and comes from those in our campus community. When warranted, and on a limited basis, we are pointing out inaccuracies in an attempt to educate those writing and speaking about the incident and related issues. Our website about the allegations and the university’s response (to which this FAQ is linked) is a part of that effort


but the way the Duke University authorities disclaimed responsibility suggests to me that perhaps (whisper it) the PR about Duke and NCCU's firm friendship may be canted a little towards news management. Simply put, this doesn't seem to be taking the issue very seriously.

If they could give a rat's ass beyond news management I'm fairly certain banning the bracelets would have been an action undertaken in the same vein. If this would have satisfied you than I must point out such an action would be hollow and meaningless and sure to be compromised somewhere else in their management. If in fact they do care (and by they I believe even those that don't care must be catering to someone who does) then what other action can they take that is both upholding respect of the alleged victim, the accused, and the right of the students to free speech?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:01 / 31.05.06
Hmmm.. hostility? I don't think I'm feeling hostility, exactly. Profound ambivalence, certainly... but onwards.

If in fact they do care (and by they I believe even those that don't care must be catering to someone who does) then what other action can they take that is both upholding respect of the alleged victim, the accused, and the right of the students to free speech?

Well, I don't see any area in which the right to free speech of the students is being circumscribed. Free speech does not necessarily mean free speech all the time. Shouting "fire" in a cinema, or expressing one's beliefs by setting fire to a cross which just happpens to be on somebody else's lawn. You may wish to argue that these acts should be allowed without demur, but on a purely pragmatic level I must disagree. Likewise, if you decide to pose for a photograph in your Marine's uniform holding the severed head of a vilager, then you are associating the beheading of that villager with your position as a representative of the Marine Corps, and the Marine Corps is involved in your action and its presentation. Keyword here is responsibility, and also accountability.

Now, if Duke University is sincere in its desire to express its concern at the seriousness of this situation, they can do so in a number of ways that do not infringe people's basic right to free expression. I doubt that campus commissars are cracking down on people's right to express whatever opinions they might have in the lunch queue, or in dorm rooms, or on the college lawns. However, if somebody is using their college email to send homophobic abuse, then the college is implicated in that use of free speech. Likewise, if a person puts on an armband the message of which is "This NCCU student is a liar", and then takes to a sports field owned by Duke University wearing a sports kit that identifies her with Duke University as part of a sports team assembled and coached by Duke University, then if Duke University says nothing and does nothing about it, then they are, realistically, endorsing not just freedom of speech but the specific freedom to use Duke University as a sponsor and enabler of the expression of the specific belief that the alleged victim of a rape is lying.

Comparison. Robbie Fowler, the Liverpool footballer, once celebrated scoring a goal by removing his top, revealing underneath a T-shirt bearing a slogan supporting the strike of the Liverpool dockworkers. Although this endeared him enormously to many of Liverpool's fans, he was fined by the club, because he had decided to use the opportunities conferred on him by the status of a Liverpool footballer to make a statement unsanctioned by his sponsor.

Now, there were no allegations of rape or of perjury going on there - he was making a simple political point - but he acknowledged that by doing so he was creating a situation where his sponsor - like the university - had to take action in response to his gesture. Duke University has not done that. It has essentially stated that the $43,000 a year students can use Duke University resources to smear the $10,000 a year student.

So, that makes me uncomfortable. Frankly, so does the idea that it is OK for them to do this because it means I can now have dialogue with other people about the issue
.

Reference - back in the "Political Correctness - Collation and Discussion" thread I recommended to Phallicus earlier, Paranoidwriter said, explaining why his consensus-based approach to bigotry was better than "censorship":


Indeed, when (for example) a prejudiced taxi driver says something homophobic in my company, I usually say something along these lines:

"Sorry mate, I don't want a row, but I have no problem with homosexuality and cannot therefore agree with what I think you've just said and meant. If you want to talk about this and / or your opinions of gay people, then that's cool, let's have a conversation, even if I don't agree with you."


To which Deva responded:

told Tangent yesterday that I really wanted to just quote that back in a response with nothing but the words "Yeah, I didn't think you were gay." Because, you know, when a taxi driver says something homophobic to me, I have to decide whether to sit quiet and go through twenty-four hours of self-hatred (oh you are so cowardly and you have betrayed your brothers and sisters and non-gender-specific siblings), or to come out to him and risk being subjected to more abuse. To you, it seems, homophobia and bigotry are a teaching tool - either for you to learn about bigotry through discussion with bigots, or for you to teach anti-homophobic attitudes to homophobes. To some of us, though, they are a direct threat against our physical and mental integrity - in more or less direct or indirect ways, against our survival. And I'm sorry, but I don't really mind "silencing" the (fifty-year-old Guardian-reading) woman who hit me on a train for hugging my girlfriend in front of a child. I don't mind if she doesn't feel able to express the fact that I - whom she knows nothing about - should not be allowed to be around children, because my sexuality will harm them. I also don't mind if the person driving me from Point A to Point B doesn't feel able to express the opinion that I shouldn't be allowed to exist.

I'm deeply uncomnfortable with the idea that it is OK for a woman who may have been raped to be called a liar, since it means that other, wiser people will be able to talk on the Internet about it, and through the redemptive power of their discourse somehow ensure that a greater net amount of good is done by this act than otherwise, and therefore it is worthwhile. It seems as an argument to mislay somewhat the person-ness of a victim. The other thing, I think, which has been itching at me a little is that the idea that this is worthwhile because it will allow a debate to spring up possibly ignores that there is a debate already going on -about race, about class, about sovereignty, about violence against women. Again, I'm not sure it's worth putting one person on the fire just to raise some sparks. However, I may be underestimating the potential for good likely to come out of this.
 
 
ibis the being
20:32 / 31.05.06
I personally do not believe censorship improves anything. If the University issued a statement that said they found the bracelets offensive (and why) but upheld freedom of speech in allowing the team to wear them we would have the best of both worlds.

I disagree with you on this freedom of speech issue xk. School sports teams/games are a specific case quite unlike other venues (campus protests, for eg) where students might air their views. Sports teams are representatives and ambassadors for the school, and necessarily represent the views of the school, particularly when traveling off campus. This is why they are subject to strict rules about dress, conduct, and presentation of the team. The school has every right to censor any article of clothing they wear to a game, and I agree with Haus that they should have in this instance - it's in Duke's best interest to avoid taking a biased or inflammatory position on this case until it's over.

I don't think the Nazi armband example is really all that extreme, irrelevant, nor is it brinksmanship. In fact it's rather a good example, because it references exactly the point where freedom of speech butts up against the "fighting words doctrine" in the US. In Chaplinsky v New Hampshire established a limitation on the 1st amendment whereby "fighting words" are excepted from free speech -

These include the lewd and obscene, the profane, the libelous, and the insulting or "fighting" words those which by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace. It has been well observed that such utterances are no essential part of any exposition of ideas, and are of such slight social value as a step to truth that any benefit that may be derived from them is clearly outweighed by the social interest in order and morality

If you disagree with my position on free speech wrt sports teams, would you say that the "Innocent" bracelets constitute fighting words? Maybe, maybe not, but I don't think the answer is obvious.
 
 
passer
21:21 / 31.05.06
A note on the use of "the South"

In my not so humble opinion, this whole issue has less to do with Duke being a southern school and more to do with Duke being a rich and overwhelmingly white school with the attendant prejudices.

A little Googling came up with a list of the top states for undergraduate admissions into Duke; four of which are not traditionally Southern states. (And for the record, Florida while south is not historically or culturally the “South.”)

The fact that it is the lacrosse team further distances this from a Southern issue. Lacrosse is most popular in New England and Canada and is primarily played by the wealthier populations in both locations. A quick look here shows the colleges and university that compete in lacrosse, the majority of these schools are in New England and are private.

Futhermore, the issue of race is more of lightening rod for Duke since the school is notorious for the social segregation of its students. It also suffers from the usually poor town/gown relations that most wealthy schools have to deal with as massive tax exempt entities.

So what’s my point? I find casual and uninformed slander against the South for racism annoying. Racism is a nation problem in the US and I find the assumption that is worse in the South ridiculous. For further thought on the issue, I point you to this ranking on black white segregation. You’ll note that the South is excluded from the top ten metropolitan areas.

Please resume your previous discussion.

Thank you.
 
 
grant
22:58 / 31.05.06
Word up to passer. There's also a town/gown/not-quite-as-gown tension with UNC, the public university 8 miles down the road, where Michael Jordan went. It's... more than a rivalry.

(Although I think Florida sort of is the South, I can also agree that it sort of isn't. Illustration: I live down here, and every evening, I drive past a house with a monster truck in the front yard and a flagpole flying a historic Confederate flag. The monster truck doesn't actually *belong* to the homeowner -- it's a county sheriff's vehicle. I think the guy must be a re-enactor or something. Nearly all of his neighbors are Cubans, as far as I can tell. They all voted the same way, judging by yard signs for Martinez (R).)
 
 
Ticker
18:26 / 01.06.06
it's the first hot day here and my brain is like oatmeal. So if this all sounds incredibly stupid, well it's the best I can do...sorry if my flailing on the field does not do justice to the topic.

ibis

I'm glad you brought in the issue of 'fighting words' as I think that is a better tool to drill down on the issue of the armbands with.

Haus' example of "This NCCU student is a liar" juxtaposed against 'Innocent' seems to me to be a far better test of fighting words (for me) than the Nazi armband. I do believe very strongly that Godwin's Law should serve to keep dialogue from revving up to such a degree and missing smaller steps. I do understand that other people may require the waving of ultimate evil about to make a point (especially when confronted with stubborn resistance) it just makes me cringe as it so over used as to be almost useless.


School sports teams/games are a specific case quite unlike other venues (campus protests, for eg) where students might air their views. Sports teams are representatives and ambassadors for the school, and necessarily represent the views of the school, particularly when traveling off campus.

So then this would be upholding the view that Duke is allowing the statement of the women's team to represent the entirety of the University. It would be interesting to see what the athletic handbook in questions says on the matter but to further our examination I'll accept this point. Sports teams are to be treated differently than the rest of the student body.

Haus I'm not sure on the difference/similarity between student vs. professional player's contracts as you mention sponsors in your example. I tend to think professionals fall under regular employee contracts but I suspect from ibis' take on student teams they maybe more similar than not...

if you disagree with my position on free speech wrt sports teams, would you say that the "Innocent" bracelets constitute fighting words? Maybe, maybe not, but I don't think the answer is obvious.

Okay so there is the very real possibility of a nasty passive aggressive saying/not-saying on the part of the University couched in the women's team's armbands....yet obviously there is something about 'Innocent' that doesn't set off the same kind of fighting-word alarm that "This NCCU student is a liar" might with the University. (Or do you think the university would have allowed that as well?)

It is my opinion that 'Innocent' is an extremely poor choice and sadly I suspect the people wearing the items may not realize why it is offensive especially compared with 'Innocent Until Proven guilty'.

Should they be allowed to wear them? Well if we agree that the sports team is the ambassadors of the school then we are looking at the statement of University (especially as we have no statement from the University claiming otherwise). The act of censoring in this case would be to underscore the disagreement of the accountable/responsible institution( one of Haus' points) if these are in fact fighting words.

Is this sliding by because it isn't overt and because it is presumed shorthand for 'Innocent until proven guilty'? (which by the way is possible on an armband if you IUPG-it)


Haus:
The other thing, I think, which has been itching at me a little is that the idea that this is worthwhile because it will allow a debate to spring up possibly ignores that there is a debate already going on -about race, about class, about sovereignty, about violence against women. Again, I'm not sure it's worth putting one person on the fire just to raise some sparks.


Regarding your post referencing teaching-tool/direct-threat and the above quote I think we need to examine the lines between dialogue and violence, including verbal violence. There seems to be a lot of meat on this bone and I'm going to suggest either bumping a freedom of speech thread from the vaults or starting a new one.

So I think Haus and ibis combined have convinced me that the sports team is not the same as the student body and therefore does not enjoy the same accountability/responsibility when expressing individual speech. So a student doing whatever off campus wearing the armband and the player on the field wearing the armband are not the same entity. Furthermore if Duke does not wish to be promoting the unqualified statement of 'Innocent' they should be regulating the behavior of the actions of their representatives.

OOHH NEWSFLASH!!! (really I just checked my email and have a response from Duke's PR wrangler):

---------------------
Dear (insert xk here ),

The Duke women's lacrosse team did not wear sweatbands with the word "innocent." News reports indicated that the team had discussed that idea, but it was not carried through. Instead, some of the players opted to wear the numbers of the indicted players on sweatbands. I would direct you to this report:

On the Field

Kelly Gilmer
_____________________________
Kelly Gilmer
Media Relations Specialist
Duke University
Office of News and Communications
Box 90563
615 Chapel Drive
Durham, NC 27708-0563
(919) 681-8065
Fax: (919) 681-7334
Kelly.Gilmer@duke.edu
 
 
ibis the being
20:17 / 01.06.06
Interesting. Also, sort of weird. The PR specialist of the school references news reports in a weird way like s/he hasn't actually talked to anyone at Duke who can confirm those reports? Anyway,

I'm a little confused as to what exactly was on the wristbands. One part of the linked article says

Adopting the men's motto of "No Excuses, No Regrets" and writing on wristbands the numbers of three indicted classmates

and another says on the numbers or men's logo were on the bands, so I'm not sure what "adopting the men's motto" means specifically.

"No Excuses, No Regrets" (printed on the logo), if worn by the team at their game, rather does sound like fighting words to me, which is somewhat irrelevant since I don't believe the team has total freedom of speech at a game, and it also sounds like a hell of a statement for the university to make by proxy.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:20 / 01.06.06
Ibis: Presumably in this context, it is taken to mean no excuses if the acused are found guilty, no regrets if the accused are found innocent, or something to that effect. Now, that strikes me as problematic to start with, as it suggests that there is no intervening space - that the accused should have no regrets if they are acquitted, which cuts out a whole range of dubious behaviours that are not identifiable as being rape. However, the whole situation is rendered somewhat academic by the wearing of the numbers. This is what sportspeople do if they wish to lionise the bearers of those numbers - consider the retirement of Ron Simmons' number by the Florida State Seminoles. Unless the team wanted to raise awareness of the numbers of the accused, in case anyone in the audience had not realised the xx was (x) (y), this seems to be a gesture of personal endorsement.
 
 
Triumvir
16:38 / 09.06.06
It appears that new evidence has come to light regarding the case. According to the other dancer present at the party, the aledged victim's story is BS. If you don't have an NYTimes account, you can't read the article online, but the gyst is that the Police witheld a statement from the other dancer that the girl was with her the entire time, and never went into the bathroom. In addition, three different men have come forward who said they had slept with her the week of the aledged rape, even though the girl said she hadn't slept with anybody the week of the rape. It seems that this case is as good as over, considering the girl's entire story is completely shot down.
 
 
Dead Megatron
19:57 / 09.06.06
I don't mean to be the devil's advocate here, but I can almost hear Shadowsax's "I told you so" laughter coming from whatever Hell dimension he's been banned to (Phantom Zone?).

Anyway, in view of the possibility those Lacrosse guys being innocent, do barbelithians still find "justified" the suspension of the Lacrosse games, as in page 1 of this thread?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:24 / 09.06.06
Bear in mind that this piece is based on what the defence lawyers are claiming. You know, the lawyers who are defending the alleged perpetrators. You wouldn't really expect them scratch their heads, look vague, and say "Well gosh, I wouldn't like to say at this point, I mean it's awfully complicated don't you think?"
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
22:16 / 09.06.06
do barbelithians still find "justified" the suspension of the Lacrosse games, as in page 1 of this thread?

Dunno about anyone else, but I still do. They were/are under suspicion in an ongoing investigation. If didn't do it and they're exonerated, then good for them. But yes, I still think the suspension was justified whatever, though unfortunate if they're innocent.

But listen to Mordant. Mordant is wise. Defence lawyers have a habit of doing the whole defending thing.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:40 / 09.06.06
I think that the possibility of "those lacrosse guys" being innocent has always been with us, DM, and has largely been acknowledged throughout this thread. As such, I'm not sure what this changes, except possibly one's opinion of the wisdom of media trials.
 
 
Dead Megatron
20:11 / 10.06.06
except possibly one's opinion of the wisdom of media trials

Seconded
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
20:23 / 08.07.06
Player who sent message is reinstated at Duke.

Succesful use of the 'IT WAS A JOKE!!1!' defense it would seem.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
23:15 / 08.07.06
For the sake of fairness, while legally he may have done no wrong, someone should, maybe just once, or twice, well, a few times anyway, be given a free pass to punch him in the face, though.

Just, y'know. For a joke, and that.
 
 
Ticker
23:08 / 09.07.06
Well now I think that's a clear DU choice of asshattery we don't need to argue over.

I especially was fond of:

Duke officials suspended McFadyen after the message was made public in a search warrant affidavit filed early in the rape investigation.

Campus officials said the temporary suspension was out of concerns for the student's safety.


So he was suspended to protect him from the repercussions of his actions? Not then to call him to task for those actions?
I'm not clear on what safety issues the Uni folks were worried about? Or are there rumors of some sort of email reprisal squad?

Here's the email btw:

Shocker Email

While digging around on Duke's site I found this pair of gems on the general issue at Duke not the email thingy.
 
 
Ticker
20:08 / 25.08.06
NY TIMES article in today's paper

login required. you want me to paste?
 
 
grant
20:24 / 25.08.06
What's it say?
 
 
Olulabelle
21:06 / 29.08.06
Yes please can you paste it?
 
 
Dead Megatron
13:46 / 13.10.06
Follow-up
 
  

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