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Rape accusation against Duke lacrosse team

 
  

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illmatic
16:55 / 14.04.06
of course the allegations need to be taken extraordinarily seriously. but so do the rights of all involved.

Well, I agree with you there.

In any situation of where rape allegations the rights of both parties have to be taken seriously. How the college balances this out is up to them, and I assume they have some internal protocols that are acting in accordance with.

With allegations like this I think the University is right to take strong action. If the women is found to be lying the lack of lacrosse entitlement or any other injustices they have suffered can be re-addressed. Compare this to the injustice that may be done to a rape victim by ignoring her complaint - in this case, I don't think an apology would suffice.

Also, historically, there is a record of accounts of rape allegations being treated in a derisory manner. In the UK, it was only in the early 80s that special rape conselling training was offered. Before this, you just got grilled by a couple of detectives. Who - *shock* - often dismissed women's allegations out of hand.

and also an immoral attention whore

Interesting choice of words. She's a black women stripping for money. I think a lot of people would refer to her in those terms anyway as a way of dismissing any ecomonic neecessity behind what shes doing.
 
 
ShadowSax
16:56 / 14.04.06
monk: yes. no sweat. i dont hold grudges.
 
 
electric monk
16:57 / 14.04.06
Cross-posting there, but okay. That WAS the victim you were talking about.

At any rate, glad you got my point.
 
 
illmatic
16:59 / 14.04.06
where did you get that?

Hopefully, my post above has made that clear. In any situation like this, I think you have rape victims allegations extremely seriously. The fact that you highlighted the injustice done to the team made me feel you were, in a sense, balancing the two out.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
17:00 / 14.04.06
Shadowsax i'm not claiming that the players have some intrinisic right to play lacrosse, but they do have a right to the same access of activities as any other students

Not while they are being investigated for a possible crime. Try to stop your irrational hatred of women blinding you to logic. Has anyone claimed this is all a plot by one of the other teams to stop them playing yet?
 
 
ShadowSax
17:01 / 14.04.06
Compare this to the injustice that may be done to a rape victim by ignoring her complaint

one can take another's accusation seriously without meting out punishment until the accusation is validated.

just as the victim is a person, so are the players. each and all ruled by whatever social and environmental surroundings they find themselves in, and also by the individual personalities and traits they possess. no one is pure good or bad, neither the victim nor the perpetrator (alleged all).
 
 
ShadowSax
17:08 / 14.04.06
Not while they are being investigated for a possible crime.

really? as far as i know, a person's rights during an investigation are only restricted to the point that they cant leave town. are you referring to a specific law or something?

Try to stop your irrational hatred of women blinding you to logic.

wha-?

Has anyone claimed this is all a plot by one of the other teams to stop them playing yet?

huh?
 
 
electric monk
17:31 / 14.04.06
they do have a right to the same access of activities as any other students

Not as far as the university is concerned. Cessation of school-related activities is pretty much standard operating procedure when any group (or any member of any group) on a college campus is accused of a crime, esp. rape.

------------

No grudge here either, Shad. I will admit that I read your posts with a certain amount of bias based on your previous posts, but I don't hate you.




Okay, some days I hate you a little. But not today. ;-)
 
 
ShadowSax
17:35 / 14.04.06
Not as far as the university is concerned. Cessation of school-related activities is pretty much standard operating procedure when any group (or any member of any group) on a college campus is accused of a crime, esp. rape.

dont be surprised if the university is sued for their actions if it is discovered that the allegations are false.
 
 
ShadowSax
17:36 / 14.04.06
no hate.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
21:19 / 14.04.06
I have no problem with the team suing the university if they are cleared. That would be dumb but hey, universities are seats of knowledge, not intelligence.

I brought up the thing about someone claiming it was a malicious accusation only to get the team out of competitions only because I understand that sport is one of the many ways people seek to distract themselves from taking an interest in social issues in the world around them. Just as someone reported fairly early on was able to turn this into the work of a scheming manipulative black girl, I wonder if anyone is going to claim this was used to stop them competing.

[By the way: with my Mod hat on I notice the first link in the first article no longer works, which I suspect means the second won't soon either. If the full article is still available from a different address could (id)entity either make the change or could someone else PM a moderator with the new address? Thanks]
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:38 / 14.04.06
OK. The way I see it is that if someone brings a false accusation, and is proved to have done so, then all hell should be let loose on them.

HOWEVER... if someone brings an accusation, it should be investigated to the full limits of the law, up to any point where it is proven to be bollocks.

I know it's not quite the same, but I gave up reporting muggings to the cops when it became clear to me that as soon as they saw me, they figured they were probably drug deals gone wrong. (Let alone the fact that I'm not stupid enough to buy drugs off people in the street for a moment...)

Surely the whole POINT of having a legal system is to override personal assumptions... this would be why Justice is commonly held to be blind, no?
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
22:00 / 14.04.06
Interesting choice of words. She's a black wom(a)n stripping for money. I think a lot of people would refer to her in those terms anyway as a way of dismissing any ecomonic neecessity behind what shes doing.

I wouldn't go as far as calling her, or anyone, an 'immoral attention whore', but the immoral part certainly fits. What this woman did was immoral, no matter what her circumstances or race. Even if you ignore the affects to the Lacrosse team (at least one of whom, the e-mailer, is a contemptable prick) and the coach who needlessly lost his job (and, IMHO, should get it back) then this woman still cried wolf, and all that entails. Suppose a real rape goes univestigated because of these well-publicised events? The police have already spent many man-hours investigating spurious charges, time they could have spent investigating real crimes with real victims.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
22:07 / 14.04.06
What this woman did was immoral, no matter what her circumstances or race. Even if you ignore the affects to the Lacrosse team (at least one of whom, the e-mailer, is a contemptable prick) and the coach who needlessly lost his job (and, IMHO, should get it back) then this woman still cried wolf, and all that entails.

Phex, am I missing something? I wasn't aware it had been decided one way or the other.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:08 / 14.04.06
People - Shadowsax's beliefs about whether rape is really such a big deal have already been made quite clear. Could we possibly just ignore them, as they will pull any discussion off course?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
22:27 / 14.04.06
I see your point, Haus, but I'm reluctant to accept the vocal presence of anyone who thinks that rape is not a big deal without challenging hir, even if I have to wear a hat for several weeks afterwards to cover up the marks that the bricks leave on my forhead. Besides, surely the attitude that rape is not a big deal is relevant to this discussion?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
22:32 / 14.04.06
And Phex--do please link us to the news article in which it is announced that the accuser has been proven to be a fraud and the case has officially been dropped, because I think I must have missed it.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
23:46 / 14.04.06
Sorry- I skipped part of the thread and didn't read one of the linked articles, but did read the earlier link about no DNA evidence etc. being found, and I guess I jumped to a conclusion based on that. Also apologies for Illmatic for misinterpreting hir post- I took 'what she is doing' to refer to creating false sexual assault charges, whereas re-reading the post it's clear s/he was reffering to becoming a stripper.
 
 
ShadowSax
00:45 / 15.04.06
rape is a very big deal and i think it's appropriate that rape victims are granted latitude and the benefit of the doubt (as i've already stated), and it's also appropriate that rape is treated as seriously as the legal system treats it.
 
 
*
01:56 / 15.04.06
From Mark Anthony Neal

To date no charges have been filed in the so called “Duke lacrosse rape case”. The results of a DNA analysis taken after the alleged attack suggest that the members of the Duke lacrosse team were not involved in the attack, though the local district attorney will continue to pursue the case. As such I am less interested in trafficking through declarations of guilt and innocence in the case, but rather interested in illuminating the various perceptions that have been and will continue to be projected onto the body of the black woman who is the focal point of this case. As has been reported so far, the accuser is a full-time student at North Carolina Central University (NCCU) and a single mother of two. The young woman and a friend were purportedly hired to dance at a bachelor party at 610 N. Buchanan Blvd. in Durham—a residence shared by several of the lacrosse team players.

Though some have downplayed the significance of race in this case—violence against women is violence against women—the intersections and race and gender are palpable. As Greg Garber notes in his fine coverage of the case for ESPN.com, the default request for exotic dancers at mainstream escort agencies is often white women (preferably blonde and big-breasted). Thus in all likelihood, regardless of what happened inside of 610 N. Buchanan Blvd, the young men were hoping to consume something that they felt that a black woman uniquely possessed. If these young men did in fact rape, sodomize, rob, and beat this young women, it wasn’t simply because she was a women, but because she was a black woman.

UCLA and Columbia University Law professor and critical race theorist Kimberle Crenshaw explains the uniqueness of discrimination against black women in her seminal essay “Demarginalizing the Intersection of Race and Sex”. According to Crenshaw: “Discrimination, like traffic through an intersection, may flow in one direction , and it may flow in another. If an accident happens in an intersection, it can be caused by cars traveling in any number of directions, and sometimes, from all of them.” Using the traffic intersection as a metaphor, Crenshaw argues that black women often “experience double discrimination—the combined efforts of practices which discriminate on the basis of race and on the basis of sex. And sometimes, they experience discrimination as black women—not the sum of race and sex discrimination, but as black women.”

Of course there are historic discourses that have constructed black women as hypersexual insatiable, and exotic—such discourses have often been employed as the rationale for racialized sexual and rhetorical violence against black women. Contemporary examples of such discourses can be found in the flippant and hateful on-air comments by national radio personalities Rush Limbaugh and Neil Boortz, who described the alleged victim in the Duke lacrosse case and U.S. Representative Cynthia McKinney, respectively, as a “ho” and a “ghetto slut”. Though it is often the music videos of hip-hop artists that are targeted for the degradation of black women’s bodies, these videos—like the syndicated shows of Boortz and Limbaugh, television networks like BET and MTV, and recording labels—are simply the vehicles for the corporately controlled circulation of black women’s bodies as such . The message is clear: black women and their bodies have little value, little protection and are accessible to anyone who feels entitled to them. Thus it should not be surprising that a generation of young white men, for whom the consumption of hip-hop has been second nature, would find a black exotic dancer desirable or in the worse case scenario, sexually available to them, even if she resist their advances. But the Duke lacrosse rape case is not simply about centuries old dramas across the color line—It also about the tensions within black communities about which black bodies deserve protection and defense

As the “identity” of the young black woman in the case began to be constructed in the media, it was revealed that she was an “exotic dancer” and un-wed mother of two. These facts should be irrelevant in a sexual assault case, but as is well known, defense attorneys often seek to demonize rape victims—in the courts and in the media—so that the integrity of the victim is called into question. The goal is to have the public and juries to believe that rape victims bear the burden of responsibility in their assaults. As scholar Wahneema Lubiano recently opined, this is part of the tenuous status of being a women in American society; If you are not “at home” under the “supervision” of a father or a husband, it is open season on your body. Already there have been attempts to portray the young woman who was raped, sodomized, robbed and beaten as immoral on the basis that she was a “stripper” and an unfit mother, who left her two children home while she performed.
 
 
illmatic
05:43 / 15.04.06
rape is a very big deal and i think it's appropriate that rape victims are granted latitude and the benefit of the doubt (as i've already stated), and it's also appropriate that rape is treated as seriously as the legal system treats it.

Well, refering to a woman who may have been the victim of rape in the terms you have, and defending the rights of the alleged perpetrators isn't going to win you any friends round here.

In fact, in light of your previous comments on other threads, it's likely to make a number of posters very angry indeed.
 
 
illmatic
05:48 / 15.04.06
Thanks for that link, id. That's a really good piece of writing.

Shadowsax: Thinking back on your comments, you seem to me to be oblivious to the way that power works in our society.
 
 
illmatic
09:14 / 15.04.06
It means having to deal with both racism and sexism - where they both intersect, as in the case of this woman, they are more than the sum of their parts.
 
 
ShadowSax
11:29 / 15.04.06
illmatic,

first, defending the rights of alleged criminals may not win someone any friends, but that doesnt make it wrong.

second, i'd like to know exactly what you mean when you say that i've referred to the alleged victim in "the way" i have. what way is that, exactly? if you're referring to "whore", then i've already explained that on the policy board. it was a bad choice of words, and i've apologized.

still, it wasnt used in this thread to comment on her behavior at the party or to comment on her choice of professions. i said "even if she is proved to be...". i wasnt claiming that she was. i havent claimed that she's done anything wrong other than leave open the possibility that she's lying, which is consistent with the published evidence.

really, it seems to me that you're trying to fit my comments here into a box that you've already designed for me. you're entitled to your own confusion, but i just thought i'd point that out.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
13:56 / 15.04.06
For your attention, Shadowsax : You're probably unaware of this, but an awful lot of people who you may perceive to 'belong' to a set of people marked by various easily or less easily noted characteristics - skin tone, say, or weight or sexuality - dislike being referred to by the relevant adjectives turned into collective nouns as a convenient descriptor to suit a segmentation of human beings into this, that and the other compartmentalised thought-boxes.

Just food for thought.
 
 
Slim
14:45 / 15.04.06
I think Haus has it right- all the arguing with Shadowsax has driven the thread off-topic.

Judging from what I've seen in the news, which may or may not be highly inaccurate, I'd guess that the stripper was lying when she made the rape accusations (although I find it a lot easier to believe that she was pelted with racist insults). The question in my mind is what has this woman, if she is indeed lying, done to the credibility of rape accusations in the future? This was a highly publicized case from the get-go because of the involvement of a sports team at a popular university. Will this cause a backlash and cause some to doubt a woman the next time she cries rape? I feel that there is a popular misconception that women make false claims of rape all the time, thereby screwing over whatever male they have a beef with. It would be a shame if this case adds to this belief.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
15:54 / 15.04.06
< sarcasm >Yes, and as she's black she's ruined thing for all blacks and women everywhere simultaneously! < /sarcasm >
 
 
Slim
16:24 / 15.04.06
Please.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
18:09 / 15.04.06
Seriously, Flowers. Sarcasm isn't neccessary. Slim has a point; just think about what may happen if a similar incident occured with Duke's basketball team. There's a good chance the team wouldn't even be suspended, I'll wager.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:59 / 15.04.06
Sorry, Tuna Ghost, but could you possibly explain that? Are you trading on the idea that the basketball team would probably be entirely made up of black men, and as such nobody would believe them to be capable of rape because of POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAD? Or is the point that nobody really cares about lacrosse?
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
19:10 / 15.04.06
Shit, no, just that basketball is HUGE at Duke and brings in a ton of money (my bad, I forgot that people outside the U.S. may not realize what a big deal college ball is in this country). Matter of fact, when the story first broke, I heard a fella on NPR say that he seriously doubted that the basketball team would have been suspended while the investigation went on, and that the school would've taken pains to keep the story a quiet as possible (maybe even at the expense of justice not being served). Can't remember who he was, though. At any rate I can agree.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:39 / 15.04.06
Fair enough.

I'm interested, however, to note that other people accuse people of crimes without being accused of trivialising the experience for others. If somebody accuses somebody of robbery, and it turns out that they have not been robbed, is this held up as an action that debases the coin of larceny? Generally not. As such, one can certainly worry that a (working on the assumption that it may turn out to be) fraudulent accusation of rape might make it harder for rape to be successfully prosecuted in future, but one might also want to look at what it is about rape that seems to make it particularly susceptible to this.
 
 
subcultureofone
20:22 / 15.04.06
here's a little more info regarding the consequences for the team. apparently, this was the fifth time the police had been called to the house and duke had already purchased it in response to neighborhood complaints with plans to sell it to people who wouldn't rent it out. this incident was part of a pattern of problematic behavior and i'm surprised the team wasn't suspended after the third police incident, since that's the more common cutoff.
 
 
subcultureofone
20:29 / 15.04.06
i meant to include this neighbor's statement from that article:

Jason Bissey, who was on his porch next door during the party, saw the victim that night. He said Friday that he wishes he had called police at the first sign something was wrong.

He saw at least 30 men go into the white three-bedroom house, which Duke officials say is rented by three lacrosse team captains.

Bissey saw two women arrive and, after they were in the house 20 minutes, come out. As they got into a car, men shouted, Bissey said.

"Some of them were saying things like, 'I want my money back,' " Bissey said.

He recalled the racially charged statements at least one man was yelling at the victim.

"When I was outside, one guy yelled at her, '... Thank your grandpa for my cotton shirt,' " Bissey said.

After a few minutes, everything seemed to calm down, he said. One of the women headed back into the house, saying she forgot her shoes.

Days later, Bissey learned one of the young women reported being raped.

"If I had called in the beginning, maybe the cops would have gotten there before this happened," he said.

Bissey and other neighbors are accustomed to hearing loud parties at the house. It's one of many rental houses near the Duke campus where police stay busy, breaking up rowdy parties and rounding up minors suspected of underage drinking.

Last fall, residents were worried about more than drunken antics and loud music. Many complained that students disregarded their neighbors and police, and were disrespectful when confronted.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:13 / 15.04.06
Haus- why did you assume that Tuna Ghost was referring to race when he invoked basketball?

I mean, I did as well, but shouldn't that be prompting us both to ask ourselves questions here?
 
  

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