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Rape accusation against Duke lacrosse team

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ONLY NICE THINGS

20:32 / 30.05.06

Unless I'm missing something about the obvious guilt of the accused, then standing up for these men isn't automatically stupid is it?

Interesting one. First up, of course, these young women are in a sense little better equipped to judge what happened than anyone else on the campus, so to suggest that they are in a better position to know what happens is I think pretty dodgy to start with. The only people who know what happened are the people who were directly witnessing what happened - after that you're making value judgements. Logically, if you are members of the women's lacrosse team, you may well think it inconceivable that your friends on the men's lacrosse team could do such a thing, and feel it to be your duty to make a statement about that. However, you are only stating an opinion - just as Slim is. What I find more surprising is the idea that their should be any obligation on the part of the women's lacrosse team to obey the bonds of sisterhood, for example by not making a public statement based on partial and imperfect information about whether the alleged victim is lying or not. The members of the Duke University Women's Lacrosse Team occupy a world massively different from the alleged victim - how could it possibly be in their interest to support either her story or even her right not to be called a liar on sweatbands worn during a university sports event - which also enlists the university in tacit support of the right to editorialise.

Next question - is this statement - that the alleged victim is, by implication, lying - less injurious to the process of justice than the statement that it is irresponsible to editorialise about the guilt of the alleged perpetrators?

ONLY NICE THINGS

20:35 / 30.05.06

There are a million cases of intimidation in regards to the hiring of minority workers, but you're not really listening, are you?

Still waiting to hear one example of somebody forcing employers to meet a racial quota regardless of employee skill . But your offer is kind. Please, give me a million examples. If you do that, it might make more sense to describe yourself as "unbiased" rather than, say " a credulous devourer and repeater of racist slurs".

Less searchable M0rd4nt

20:35 / 30.05.06

If there are 'a million cases of intimidation in regards to the hiring of minority workers' then you could surely furnish us with just one or two. Perhaps you could link to a study investigating this heinous practice (hint: not the Ayn Rand institute again, there's a good chap). People here are not unreasonable and respond well to genuine evidence when they see it.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

20:37 / 30.05.06

Well, why didn't you say you were a Socialist? I'll stop pointing out your unconsidered racism straight away, brother.

Korso Jerusalem

20:38 / 30.05.06

Haus-

I really, really hate to invoke a statement invoked to nauseous effect by the right, but NAACP injustices aren't generally covered by the (generally) liberal news sources. It seems malicious and counterproductive to cultural advancement, though in reality it is anything but.

Can we please, please quit the pissing match? This thread is dying as I type.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

20:42 / 30.05.06

(generally) liberal news sources

Could you perhaps give us a quick outline of this general liberal bias in the news? Coz I have to say my perception is just a tiny tiny bit different. Looking forward to having that perception challenged with reasoned argument and evidence, though.

Korso Jerusalem

20:46 / 30.05.06

A horribly biased piece with some good bits that you have to look for.

Supporters of affirmative action, with NAACP waving and smiling.

"Racial justice" group supporting affirmative action.

Gee golly gosh, one Google search. Do any of you research anything that doesn't coincide with your belief system?

20:47 / 30.05.06

Phallicus, I strongly suggest you step back and calm down. Maybe take a break for a while. Because you aren't really doing yourself or this thread any favours at the moment.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

20:47 / 30.05.06

It would seem to me that there's two types of feminism that might be considered to be at play here (I'm aware that I probably won't be using the word feminism accurately in the following so please be kind). On Feministing, Samhita seems to be using feminism as a term to mean 'all women stick together and take the one line, based on what the victim says happened' whereas the Lacrosse team are might consider themselves feminists by deciding, based on whatever sources they have access to, to support their fellow team. This blog entry does no favours by suggesting the women are weak and being made, presumably by their coaches, the university management and/or the university lawyers, to support the male team.

Korso Jerusalem

20:48 / 30.05.06

Mord-

La la la la la.

Korso Jerusalem

20:49 / 30.05.06

"women are complicit in their own oppression but also involved in the silencing and vicitimization of women of color.

I'm sorry, what?

Our Lady Has Left the Building

20:52 / 30.05.06

Media Research Centre.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

20:55 / 30.05.06

What is it about that phrase you find difficult to understand? If it's actual words you might want to make use of dictionary.com.

Korso Jerusalem

21:01 / 30.05.06

Like all organizations, of course they have a bias.
You can't deny a liberal bias in the news, though.
Fox is conservative, CNN is liberal, and many others carry their own bias. The majority that you read, though is quite liberal. Not that liberal is a bad thing, mind you, but it carries with it its own prejudices.

21:01 / 30.05.06

Any links that don't lead to biased sources, Phallicus? From reading around their site, MRC seem to be as Conservative as they come and quite happy to bang a drum about it.

Korso Jerusalem

21:04 / 30.05.06

Read up, my friend. Onwards and upwards.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

21:06 / 30.05.06

One could make the case the conservative bias in the media is equally important. (The UK version of a similar story)

Korso Jerusalem

21:10 / 30.05.06

That's Fox, which everyone jumps all over. Yes, of course, they are biased as all hell, but so are many other sources.

I'm not sure how it is over in the UK, but over here it's fairly liberal dominated. This isn't much of a problem for me usually, as I am all for the Bush criticism, but it lends to some troubles at times.

And yes, Murdoch is a terrifying old man.

21:11 / 30.05.06

You can't deny a liberal bias in the news, though

Yes, you can. And people do. You think there is self evident liberal bias, whereas many people here, myself included, think there is self evident conservative bias (this question is further complicated by the fact that "liberal" and "conservative" are extremely crude ways to cut up the world, and terms whose meanings aren't really that stable as you go from country to country).

Korso Jerusalem

21:13 / 30.05.06

Aside from Fox, how many new sources are conservative? They're the only clear example I've found.

Some of the media is a bit hesitant to go too left (read: criticise the administration too much), but that isn't necessarily right-leaning.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

21:15 / 30.05.06

If you believe the media to be liberal dominated, what do you think is the force that accounts for the Republicans controlling every branch of Government? Because, for the liberal media to be driving people to vote Conservative out of sheer frustration with them would be counter to what we know of how media interacts with society.

Mind you, this is drifting off the topic at hand and might be worth starting a new thread on.

21:17 / 30.05.06

I wouldn't describe CNN as "liberal", more like "to the center"

And:

Any links that don't lead to biased sources, Phallicus?

Learn this, people: No source in this planet is un-biased. You just have to take them all into consideration and, as Bhuddah would say, "find the middle-ground", the closest aproximation of the truth, such as it is. If you start ignoring a source because you don't like their point of view, be aware that that works both ways.

Anyway, I do think this subject has been highjacked: It is all about race issues, feminist issues, class issues, left-right issues. What about the specific actual rape investigation? How is it going?

[And Haus, Phallicus, and anyone else who might feel I'm talking to them: watch out the name-calling. It's not productive]

ONLY NICE THINGS

21:18 / 30.05.06

Newspapers owned by News Corporation.

Korso Jerusalem

21:28 / 30.05.06

Yes, that sounds about right. Now, let us listen to DM and cease this nonsense. This thread has gone a horrible way.

And Haus, you and I shall cease the name calling.

ONLY NICE THINGS

21:32 / 30.05.06

Still waiting for one example of forcing employers to meet a racial quota regardless of employee skill, Phallicus. Hint: find a US court case that finds that this has occurred and fails to correct it, or that enforces it. "Regardless of employee skills" is important. Hint the second: you said "regardless of employee skill". Remember that. Hint the third: if this is the first time you have ever looked for actual proof of this belief, and you do it with a Google search, that means you've been peddling unexamined racist propaganda for as long as you've been uncritically parroting this belief.

The only relevance to this thread, of course, is that your attitude to race is fucked up, and to be honest we had that at I for one know loads of casual racists, even people who associate with the "white power" movement.

Flowers: I think your reading is slightly off; the feministing person does indeed see to be assuming that the women's lacrosse team is suffering some sort of false consciousness, and that they would naturally support their sister were it not for the oppression of men and also of the oppression of racial hatred. This does seem naive - their are all sorts of reasons why the lines should be drawn this way, not least simple self-interest. The broader cause of feminism might be served by the team refraining from comment on the guilt or innocence of the alleged victim, but the immediate causes of the members of the women's lacrosse team might be advanced by thhis show of solidarity. After all, how many strippers are going to be socially or professionally useful to them in later life?

However, if we leave aside the use of the word "Nazi", which strikes me as an easy open goal for people to grab onto, we're back to whether it would be acceptable for sporting representatives of Duke University to wear armbands saying that other members of Duke University were guilty of rape. If it is not, then is it acceptable for them to wear armbands saying that the other party in the case is guilty of perjury? This seems to me an inappropriate action, regardless of the details of the case.

21:34 / 30.05.06

Aside from Fox, how many new sources are conservative?

This is dragging us off-topic, but briefly, you should probably consider that over here in Europe, the Democrats are often seen as an essentially pro-business conservative party. An average Democrat would probably vote for the right wing party here in Spain, for instance. So, theres that. Certainly, whenever I have watched CNN, for instance, it struck me as being rather conservative, in the sense of failing to challenge the government, say, on key issues. PIPA has some evidence to support some of these conclusions, here, say, though a general conclusion from their studies isn't as clear cut.

Korso Jerusalem

21:36 / 30.05.06

Haus-

For fuck's sake man, let it go. I'll let you destroy this topic on your own now, I'll have no hand in it anymore.

Also, you seem to love jumping to conclusions concerning my beliefs, more than eager to paint me as some sort of right-wing fairy tale villain. Just because I'm surrounded by quasi-fascist twats doesn't mean I subscribe to their beliefs.

Lurid-

I guess Europe and America have different political climates. Over here the left is mostly just a bunch of frightened, semi-leftists.

Now, as I said to Haus, let's leave this topic to its original intent.

21:45 / 30.05.06

One last comment on the liberal = leftism thing. I guess it's an USA thing, which makes me think the US may be the most right-leaning country in the world since, sorry about that, the Nazy Germany, since it's the only place the "liberals" are the so-called "good guys". Down here in Brazil, "liberal" is another name for rich businessmen who do not want the government to over-tax them in order to create a "letfy" welfare state. Sounds familiar? And, just to make it more ironically fun, the only thing worse than a "liberal" is a "neo-liberal". Go figure

now, back to topic.

21:45 / 30.05.06

Phallicus, you're an ass.

Korso Jerusalem

21:47 / 30.05.06

Ah, long live intellectualism. It brightens my soul.

I mourn for this thread.

ONLY NICE THINGS

21:48 / 30.05.06

I mourn for this thread.

You never cared about this thread. You have made not one comment on topic.

DM: It's OK to take bias into account when evaluating the likelihood that a story is accurate. As a starter, and to kill two birds with one stone, have a look at this local coverage. It'll give you some updates on the story, and it might be worth having a think about how the news is being reported. See what conclusions you reach, and share them.

Incidentally, I don't think I did call anyone names. I called Phallicus an idiot, which seems on the data available accurate - as demonstrated by his latest gambit of, having demonstrated his willingness to shout abuse, now pretends to be a moderator when he is unable to justify his unexamined absorption of racist views. So far, on the name-calling, Phallicus has managed:

I point out some glaring bullshit and all the good little liberal boys and girls shit themselves.

Do people come here to wank each other's political egos and toss around in-jokes, or do they actually discuss events?

You've gone out of your way to be a pissy twat so far.

Moderator material. Now, where was I? Oh, yes:

Still waiting for one example of forcing employers to meet a racial quota regardless of employee skill, Phallicus. Hint: find a US court case that finds that this has occurred and fails to correct it, or that enforces it. "Regardless of employee skills" is important. Hint the second: you said "regardless of employee skill". Remember that. Hint the third: if this is the first time you have ever looked for actual proof of this belief, and you do it with a Google search, that means you've been peddling unexamined racist propaganda for as long as you've been uncritically parroting this belief.

Do it in another thread if you like, or admit that you can't and start reading, but don't try to pretend that being unable to defend your unthinking credulity towards claims that support your own prejudices puts you in postition to try to be the bigger man. Student or lesson.

Korso Jerusalem

21:56 / 30.05.06

Regardless of employee skill, yes yes. If a contract is of an ethnic minority, they will be given preference over those of equal skill but more common ethnicity.

What's this I see? Skepticism and a smirk?

Read.

You are familiar with the concept of affirmative action, are you not?

Also, quit calling me a racist. I have time and time again said that I am simply opposed to the elevation of any race over another. Just because I don't feel guilty for things my forefathers did does not make me a "racist". I don't care who you're descended from, you're still human.

Since you seem hell bent on continuing this, well, by all means proceed. I just felt a bit guilty is all.

21:58 / 30.05.06

I'll read the material and come back later to comment, Haus. But, in the mean time, calling someone an idiot is name-calling, even if you feel it's justified name-calling. And, just to substantiate my claim< i'll un-ironically quote the Gospels:

Matthew 5:22

But I say, if you are angry with someone, [ Some manuscripts add without cause.] you are subject to judgment! If you call someone an idiot, [ Greek uses an Aramaic term of contempt: If you say to your brother, `Raca.'] you are in danger of being brought before the high council. And if you curse someone, [ Greek if you say, `You fool.'] you are in danger of the fires of hell.

ONLY NICE THINGS

21:59 / 30.05.06

DM: This is not the place for it - best start a new thread - but what you are describing is known in English as "libertarians", effectively, or "economic liberal", or "laissez-faire capitalists". "Liberal" is used in the US as a smear by the right wing, and is used to describe a combination of social liberalism - in favour of gay marriage and affirmative action, pro-choice, anti-guns pro blah, anti blah, pro fishcakes - and social interventionism - expressed through high taxes and heavy government regulation. There is no recognised "liberal" party in the US two-party system - some Republicans are socially liberal (the libertarian wing), on the grounds that the government should not interfere with personal choice, and some Democrats, in particular in the South, are more socially conservative or religious. The Religious Right, which is socially illiberal, deforms perceptions of the Republican attitude to a number of social issues.

22:02 / 30.05.06

Here's a new thread on The Liberal Media for further discussion.

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