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All Star! Challenge

 
  

Page: 12(3)45678

 
 
garyancheta
01:08 / 07.04.06
It seems like there are 7 different ways to revamp characters. Here are the 7 different patterns that I see and I'll use Power Pack as my example for how these different patterns are different from eachother:

1) The Postmoderning of Characters (examples Dark Knight Returns): which is basically the zeitgiest of all variations of the characters to the end of their series. This is the last arrow shot and the King Arthur returning from Avalon. After the last hurrah, the characters come back.

Power Pack Example (i.e. Indy Movie meets Power Pack): Jack, Julie, Katie, and Alex have all gone their separate ways. Jack is a college student backpacking through Europe. Julie is a mother of two. Alex is an investment banker. Katie is a coffee-jockey at Starbucks. Their adventuring days are over until the Klymeans call them back to service. Now Katie has to bring back her estranged brothers and sister back from their comfortable jobs to go out one more time...

2) The Ultimatizing of Characters (examples Ultimates): which is basically putting older characters in a streamlined, modern context. Think about movies of current comic book characters: Batman in 1989 reflected it's times, just like the Batman in 2005 reflects the Batman of our times.

Power Pack Example (E.T. meets Power Pack): Jack, Julie, Katie, and Alex are living in Brooklyn. They moved after 9-11 because their parents found work near the WTC. New York is at Yellow Alert and a space craft crashes near their apartment. Inside is a Klymean scout who crashed landed to earth after a major battle with his mortal enemy, the Snarks. His exotic fuel source explodes and grants the four children superpowers. With these superpowers, come great responsibility...and Snarks.

3) The Elseworlding of Characters (examples Gotham by Gaslight): which takes characters and puts them in the far past or the far far future. Superman as a revolutionary war hero. Batman as a digital program meme attacking the Joker program.

Power Pack Example (Neverland meets Power Pack): C.S. Lewis wrote the Lion, Witch and the Wardrobe not based on Christianity, but a true story that his babysitter would tell him about her adventures when she was a child. Kathrine Jacoby, her sister, Julie, and her two brother, Alex and Jack were sent to their Aunt's estate in England after her father and mother died from TB during the Great War. In their Aunt's grand mansion, they found a secret passageway to a distant land made up of the heroic Klymeans and the monsterous and war-like Snarks...

4) All Star-ing of Characters: which puts characters at their most iconic. All Star Superman is a good example...where you start a particular time period and consolidating a large amount of mythology about the character, for the service of a mythic story. Myth is important in these stories, setting a period of time that isn't the past or the future, but somewhere in the "current now" that escews any type of politics of the current time. They deal with simple issues, like aging, death, or youth.

Power Pack Example (Superfudge/Tales of a Fourth Grade Nothing meets Power Pack): Alex, Julie, Katie, and Jack are kids living in New York. Their parents are thinking about moving to California in a few days and this separates the family. Alex is going to miss his girlfriend that he's been seeing. Julie loves the idea of moving to a place where she can make new friends because she doesn't have friends in New York. Jack wants to pull off the ultimate prank at PS 170, his school. Katie wants to say goodbye to all her friends (from Franklin in the Fantastic Four to Artie and Leech from the Morlocks).

5) Born-Againing Characters (4 or Daredevil Born Again): This is where the character, in current continuity, has the worst time ever, but eventually pushes forward and makes a new status quo. Think of Daredevil's Born Again series or Hal Jordan's Breakdown in Green Lantern. This is a change in the status quo that affects everything and "nothing is ever the same again" for a least a couple of years.

Power Pack Example (Hotel Newhampshire meets Power Pack): After a huge conflation of circumstances (aliens destroying their house and the Power Pack revealed to be superheroes), the Power Pack family move to San Fransisco in order to have a new life under the SHIELD witness relocation program. Jack, Katie, Alex, and Julie must adjust to the weirdness that is Haight Street, as everyone attempts to adjust as life as normal kids. But the Snarks have followed them and suddenly weird puberty issues and science fiction mix.

6) Everything You Know is Wrong-ing (Miracleman): where characters realize that what we know and what is actual is completely different. Miracleman is a good example of this revamp, where we realize that these are just fictions that keep us from accepting reality.

Power Pack Example (Girl Interrupted meets Power Pack): Katie Power isn't sure what's real and what's not real anymore. At a very young age, Katie began to see and know the world in a completely different way. She believed that her siblings were really superheroes and that they fought crime together. Instead, the family is just a dysfunctional family that Katie has constructed an elaborate fantasy to deal with her life.

7) The Next Generation (MC2): happens when you move the timeline beyond the original characters and focus on the the children of superheroes. Usually this is used to show the generational divides between characters.

Power Pack Example (Brady Bunch Reunion TV Show meets Power Pack): Julie is an executive with twin boys, dealing with a husband who is understanding yet clueless. Jack is dealing with another divorce with a daughter from his first marriage. Alex is the ideal father, with an adult son that is every bit his father. Katie arrives at the family reunion, pregnant and unwed. That's when the Snarks capture the Power Pack. Katie has to bring together her niece and nephews together in order to save their parents.

- Gary Ancheta
 
 
Mario
01:30 / 07.04.06
I'd say that MC2'ing, DarkKnighting, and Elseworlding are all variations of the same thing...seeing familiar characters in unfamiliar ways.

So are Ultimate and All-Star, really. Both are just streamlining the characters by giving them clean starts. The only difference is the implementation (ASBats is basically "Ultimate Batman", if you think about it).

I'd reduce your list to the following.

Reboot: New history, possibly new look.

Retcon: New history, with bits of the old history.

Revamps: New look, old history.

Else-If's: New history, new look, new everything.
 
 
garyancheta
03:42 / 07.04.06
See, I disagree that MC2ing, Dark Knighting, and Elseworlding are the same thing because the intent is different.

MC2ing is to see the next generation. It's the difference between Original Star Trek and Next Generation Star Trek. The premise is the same with new characters.

Dark Knighting is different because it's showing the "Final Battle" scenerio of the character. The hero is on his/her last legs and they go out in glory. Think of Star Trek: Generations movie where Kirk is finally done in by doing something heroic and stupid at the same time. It's the last hurrah.

Elseworlding is different because it just takes it in a different context entirely. What if Superman was Batman? What if Robin was really a girl.

You are correct in saying that these are all "Familiar Characters in Unfamiliar ways", but I would think they would be distinct enough approaches to warrent different categories. I mean, there's a lot of difference between Dark Knight Returns and Gotham by Gaslight in as far as tone and intent. Dark Knight is meant to be the "final story" and Gotham by Gaslight is meant to show a Victorian Batman fighting crime.

I'd also disagree with the Ultimatizing and All-Staring being the same thing. Again, you have to look at the intent. Ultimatizing something seems like you do away with continuity and put characters into a completely modern context. This is the "What if This was Happening Today!" From what I've seen with Batman and Superman, they aren't necessarily doing that. They aren't posing "What if Superman was Today" or "What if Batman was today." They're posing "How do we write our characters as myths?" They don't care that their stories are happening today or yesterday or tomorrow. The stories are in a world all their own.

A Mythic Story of Superman would be something akin to Alex Ross's Giant-Sized Superman Story "Peace." This is a story that could fit into continuity, but doesn't necessarily have to fit into continuity.

An Ultimate Story of Superman would be like Mark Waid's Birthright where Martha Kent uses the internet to find out more about Aliens that have visited the Earth or how Lex Luthor equates Kryptonians to Al Queda and Superman to a terrorist. It places the story of Superman in a completely modern context...sort of "Ripped from the Headlines" version of events.

I'd amend both our lists to the following with Superman as an example:

Reboot: New history, possibly new look. This would fit well with the "Ultimatizing" category.

Examples: Byrne's Man of Steel or Mark Waid's Birthright

Retcon: New history, with bits of the old history. This would fit well with the "Everything You Know is Wrong" category...where stories like Swamp Thing and Miracleman would fit in.

Examples: Superman's Smallville experience being an experiment put on by the Manhunters to spy on the last Kryptonian.

Revamps: New look, old history. This would probably fit within the whole "Born Again" category.

Examples: Electric Superman

Remixed: New history, new look, new everything. This would be the whole "Elseworlds/What If Categories" that put stories in different contexts throughout time or with a different slant.

Examples: Superman: Red Son

Reported: History and looks do not matter. The only thing that matters is the theme that carries the story. All the Alex Ross/Giant Tabliods fall into this category.

Examples: Superman "Peace" about how Superman looks at world politics or Grant Morrison's ASS which looks at how Superman deals with middle age.

Recycled: New History, New Looks, New People. The original characters may or may not be there, but the focus is on the children of the heroes.

Examples: Son of Superman stories
 
 
garyancheta
03:58 / 07.04.06
Whoops, forgot to post the last one:

7) Returned: Amalgamated History, Amalgamated Look, Older Character. Returning: After a long hiatus, we see the character don on the cape and cowl one more time to have the final battle and win the last war.

Example: Superman in Kingdom Come

And here's three more that didn't fit the mandate list, but I feel should be listed in order to not get them confused with other ideas:




8) Renamed: Everything is the same but the name. This would fall in
the category of taking the template of the hero and putting them in
a completely different context. The sharp reader would catch the
reference, but they don't necessarily have to catch the reference in
order to get the story.

Example: Alan Moore's Supreme or Hyperion from Marvel Comics or
Atom: Tangent Comics

9) Reimagined: Everything is completely different but the name. This
would fall into taking the name of a character and giving it to
someone who has absolutely no connection to the original character.
There are certain things that cross over (maybe a sense of justice
or a methodology of handling others) but the powers and abilities
are completely different.

Example: Superman: Tangent Comics where Millar reimagines Superman
as a black man who is becoming a Nichezian superhero.

10) Remagicalized (or magic realism): Everything is the same, but
looks completely different. Both the Magical and the Mudane are put
on the same playing field as people go through their days looking at
the wonder or majesty of these superheroic titans that walk the
earth.

Example: Alan Moore's Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow or
any story that is told from someone outside of Superman himself.
 
 
Mario
12:44 / 07.04.06
Either works, really. I find broad classifications more useful, personally. But in the end, they are just useful labels (if you don't mind, I'm going to steal the "Remix" one )
 
 
garyancheta
12:54 / 07.04.06
Go ahead and steal remix. I stole it from the Marvel "Remix" series.
 
 
COBRAnomicon!
13:33 / 07.04.06
OK, I've got one. It's rough, and there's a lot I'd like to work/flesh out. but I'm jazzed about the idea and wanted to toss it out to the community:

All-Star Question

There's a bit of a minefield to walk with this, because in a way, All-Star Question already exists; we call him Rorschach. So my version moves in the opposite direction from the Rorschach template, because A) I'm not about to compete with Alan Moore on his own turf and B) a Rorschach ongoing would get overgrim pretty fast.

The other definitive Question is, of course, Ditko's original Charlton. Those stories are awesome and compelling, but a little bit limited. Vic Sage's scope needs to expand beyond 8-page dust-ups with small-time grifters and vandals.

Awesomely, the new dimension that the character needs is sitting right there, just underneath the source material: Objectivism. No, I don't think it's a workable (or even admirable) philosophy in the real world, but it's got tons of potential as a skeleton to sit underneath The Question. Vic Sage is a fiery, true-believing Randroid, and the Question is his expression of that—fed up when a former friend betrayed him and stole an idea (a static electricity generator, like the Galt generator in Atlas Shrugged; the way I see it, one of the fringe benefits here is the opportunity for Rand jokes/references all over the place. Sage lives in an apartment in a Howard Roark building, for example), Vic dresses up as the Question to take it to the streets against the people he thinks are destroying society with their looting and mooching and so on.

And that's what makes him interesting. he views the world through a strict black/white lens, but his B-W axis is totally foreign to most of the world, so no one really know what to make of him. The left adores him when he takes down a Jim Taggart-style corrupt, empty-suit businessman (speaking of which, Vic Sage detests the Bush Administration for being corrupt, incompetent profiteers); but they abhor him (and the right loves him) when he busts up on hippies (another note: although he's an Objectivist who beats people up, it's important that Vic be written sympathetically. He's drawn by the pro-Individual and non-exploitive capitalism sides of Objectivism; and he has a sense of humor, similar to Ditko-era Spidey).

Bowing both to his code-name and to his JLU portrayal, Vic Sage is an information junkie. He spends immense amounts of time online trying to piece things together, both at his day job (he's an engineer, not a broadcaster, and more on that in a minute) and at home. Actually, he has a fairly high-profile blog (Ditko's TV broadcaster was too much of an insider; a sort of fringe-y blogger gives more of a marginalized, claustrophobic feeling; this way, the Question's more clearly fighting an uphill battle) where he writes as the Question about what he does and why he does it.

So, then. Vic's overall arc is to learn about shades of gray. At the end, he still has his Objectivist POV, but he's more attuned to gray areas and subtleties.

So who does he fight/oppose? Well, at first at least, traditional Question-style opponents: grifters, fakes, looters. As Darwyn Cooke pointed out, he would probably be rather active against terrorists (or at least those he thinks are terrorists).

But there's a possible escalation to this, which I'll admit is dicey, but seems pretty interesting to me. The Question is generally a street-level character, but let's face it, he lives in the DCU. The Question hates altruists. Who's the DCU's biggest altruist? Superman. Vic Sage may not necessarily hate Superman, but he certainly doesn't think much of him— he sees Superman as a fool who wastes his enormous potential trying to solve other people's problems. Now, a properly-formulated Luthor (IE, the Luthor who wants to kill Superman because Big Blue stifles human potential) would be singing a tune that Vic Sage would love to hear.

So maybe you have a final arc where Luthor approaches the Question and suggests a collaboration to bring down Superman. Vic rocks his information sources and, Batman-style (he reveres Batman, by the way) figures out Superman's vulnerability. He gets Superman on the ropes and then either (I haven't worked this all out yet) A)pulls back at the last minute, recognizing that he and Superman actually aren't that different, just making sacrifices to serve different ideals; or, more likely, B) doesn't plan on Superman's sheer awesomeness and winds up getting a beatdown and then a Super-lecture on individualism vs. no-man-is-an-island.

OK. That's what I've got so far. Lots of rough edges and things that need to be worked out (including what happens with the supporting cast; I see most of the Ditko supporting cast appearing, although with somewhat different roles. No Professor Rodor, for one thing), but I like the broad outlines.
 
 
Mario
14:25 / 07.04.06
The biggest problem, as far as I can see, is that it's hard to tell Vic apart from the Question. You might want to make his "secret ID" more public. Talk Radio, maybe?
 
 
COBRAnomicon!
14:37 / 07.04.06
Yeah, it gets tough. It could be something like Vic Sage is burning with anger/frustration/motivation but afriad to do anything more active than writing on the internet (so, yeah, maybe it makes more sense for the blogging to be as Vic Sage, to emphasize the talk-vs-action dichotomy)or calling talk radio (and good call there-- AS? would definitely be all over the AM radio scene, especially at night). I feel like I'm sort of moving into Ultimate Question territory, tough, rather than All-Star, diverging more and more from the source material. Ditko didn't really have a firm line between Vic Sage and the Question; his Sage wasn't above busting some ass out of costume if the situation called for it.
 
 
grant
14:37 / 11.04.06
Best All-Star Ever.
 
 
Mario
16:55 / 17.04.06
As I've threatened, here's my proposal for an All-Star Manhunter (from Mars).

We start out on the plains of Mars. As before, the Martian race is dying of a plague, one that causes them to lose the ability to maintain their forms. Given that their shapeshifting ability evolved as a method of adapting to outside threats, the only way to give quietus to the victims (who live in near constant agony), is by exposing them to something they cannot adapt to, due to it's rapidly changable nature:

Fire.

The last survivor of the J'onzz clan, possibly the last Martian alive, J'onn J'onnz, watches his family burn. A skilled adept of the path of L'Zoril, he was taught that change is the only constant of existence. But this change was more than he could encompass.

Finally, he was ready to let go, and join the spirits of his people. Until the universe is ripped out from underneath him.

NYC, 1953: Saul Erdel's attempt to contact alien life pays off with unexpected dividends. End of issue #1.

Issue #2 will handle J'onn's adaptation to human life. Erdel tries his best to help, and with the aid of J'onn's telepathy (an adaptation necessitated by Mars's thin atmosphere), they reach common ground. J'onn shapes a human disguise based on a police drama he'd seen on Erdel's television set (their search for truth strikes a chord with his nature).

The next few issues cover his attempts to explore humanity in various ways. We can throw in references to various stories of the past (In the 60's, we can do a Marco Xavier riff, in the 70's the Bronze Wraith story, maybe something new for the 1980's).

In the mid 90's, he becomes associated with the nascent Justice League, and helps them defeat various alien menaces (retell some classic tales here, maybe with new spins).

The last arc of the book will be an homage to the classic "Invasion of the Pale Martians" arc of the pre-Crisis JLA. They'd fled Mars during the plague, along with several Jade Martians as slaves. After cutting a swath across the galaxy, they've returned to their native system, and turned their eyes towards Earth.

The final issue will be a duel of forms between J'onn and the Pale Martian commander, B'ann B'lankz, which J'onn will naturally win. At the end, he will be asked to lead the new Jade Martian republic, but will refuse.

After all, there's still so much to learn.

***

The key here is the Jade Martian psychology. I see them as very Taoist in outlook, seeking harmony with their environment, not dominance over it (which is the Pale Martian outlook). They are living exemplars of the tree that bends in the wind. Taoism also seeks to understand the unity of opposites, which would allow J'onn to explore all the facets of the human experience (including, possibly, an arc where he becomes female).

Indeed, if there's room, I could see him in all sorts of situations, from the Deep South to the temples of Tibet.

Any thoughts?
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
17:30 / 17.04.06
I like the jade and pale versus green and white. And I like the clear distinction between how the two strains of Martian Culture treat their environment.

Okay: other than the Pale Martians, did J'onn ever have any recurring foes?
 
 
Mr Tricks
17:31 / 17.04.06
Nice with Jon being around in the 50's after the WWII heroes have sort of retired but before the silver age proper there might be room for him to gradually develop his "super hero" persona.

Perhaps he prevents the assassination of president LBJ.

How about a story where he encounter's a middle aged Sandman. Could be a pulpy detective tale with Wesly Dodds figuring out that John Jones is more than he seems and eventually inspiring him to research the old superheroes.

Get him to encounter the Crimson Avenger in there as well?

I could see some sort of psychedelic adventure set in the 60's Summer of love.


Have him witness the Whatts riots. Get him involved in Watergate or have him be the guy to hunt down Charles Manson. Have him gradually realise the world needs a sort of superhero again and he considers filling that role up until Superman's appearance.


Let him meet a young Clark Kent on the road to Metropolis.


MM just seems to have the potential to span the decades between his arrival in the 50's and the Modern day like no other character can. In the Justice League cartoon he was like 500 years old. That sort of lifespan and perspective should be used in the storyline.

He should be played as a sort of unseen hand in the DCU's history only recently coming out as a "superhero" in time for the formation of the JLA.
 
 
Mario
18:09 / 17.04.06
A lot of that "unseen hand" stuff came out in the Ostrander run, inculding the idea that he was a farmhand for the Kents for a while.

I thought it was a bit overdone myself, which is why I prefer to think of J'onn as more of an observer of history than a participant. I don't mind him bumping into Wesley Dodds or a young Perry White, but I don't want to turn him into Forrest Gump.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
02:46 / 26.04.06
Bump. New Challenge: Somebody give me an "All-Star!" proposal for Cloak and Dagger. Bonus points for giving them a bit of depth and respecting their origins without clinging too much the "War on Drugs" vibe they started out with - or riffing on it in some new, unexpected way. Who would you want on the art team, as well?
 
 
Mario
11:22 / 26.04.06
Didn't I do that already on the Villains thread? IIRC, I turned them into the living avatars of Yin & Yang.
 
 
Aertho
13:34 / 26.04.06
Well, like I often say, I'm not too hip on mainstream Marvel characters, and fad-inspired characters even less so.

But Cloak and Dagger are homeless runaways, and their themes are all about confrontation and redemption. So there's this whole thing about them running away from problems(homes), running into other problems(drugs), and confronting others while redeeming themselves. There was a Xtian element too, but I'm not willing to explore all that.

Don't they handle Spider villains? Have they ever worked internationally? They seem cosmic-ly powered, in a Phoenix Consciousness kind of way. Have they ever split up? How much retconning or ultimatizing are we allowed?
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
14:13 / 26.04.06
Mario - Right, right. I want to see some more story stuff, though, and thematics? I've just been reading their Runaways appearances and it seemed to highlight some of their problems for me.

Cassie - The Christian elements could be played with to some degree; is Cloak some dark devil or a more Gnostic Figure? Is Dagger a good little choir-girl in a peek-a-boo costume, or is she Sophia? And I'm inclined to push them in a more hallucinatory direction to counterbalance the more reactionary elements of their creation. They're cosmic in some ways but in a lot of other ways they're specifically street-level, on the move, helping the people kind of heroes.
 
 
Aertho
14:27 / 26.04.06
Hm. I guess you're right. Dagger as a crackwhore = popular Magdalene themes. And Cloak's all solemn, as if he's convinced he's a shitty person because he wears a door to a dark dimension. He's so sad. I wonder why Dagger never left his ass and joined the Avengers. And he joined the X-Men, being so SAD.

I'm not sure I can do an All-Star arc. I kinda want to split them up, Ladyhawk style. They run away from home, right? So they should run away from each other. Cloak stays in town, gobbling up drug dealers while Dagger does the optimisitc thing and joins Avengers or some other team. But then becasue everything's connected, they're brought back together.

Then I was thinking Cloak and Dagger grow up and join the Law and Order: SVU team, and play it like a love story/crime drama. Wherein the audience is forced to confront Filth-type stuff in Grand Guignol form. I guess that's more All-Star considering thier drug war history and 80's deconstructive motif.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
14:36 / 26.04.06
Somewhere in my oddly vast and possibly extradimensional comic collection, I have a coupla Strange Tales issues where Dagger does leave Cloak because after being given the opportunity to be (relatively) normal kids again, he gives it up to be Cloak again. Dagger runs off in anguish and ends up hanging around with the Black Cat for a while, and Cloak goes off to fight evil...for a little while. One of the constraints on the relationship is that Cloak's darkness hungers and must be fed with light...only Dagger's light-blades are suitable to keep it fed for any length of time. He hooks up with Dazzler for a brief period but her light powers are wrong - after all, Dagger's blades have a spiritual aspect to them that is missing from Dazzler's powers.

Actually, geez, there was a whole big drug metaphor in there that I missed the first time. Ha.

So you *could* update the story a bit and have Dagger leave him. Previously they were too best friends, with Tyrone secretly in love with Tandy - well, maybe not secretly - but it's been intimated more recently that they've actually gotten together romantically. Which could be the impetus for splitting them up.

I'd actually like to see them as part of a new Night Force led by Doc Strange (and Dead Girl, obviously), doing street-level magic justice riffs.
 
 
Mario
14:41 / 26.04.06
Well, the storyline I have in mind is that they need to understand their essences more. Cloak is always angry, aggressive, and confrontational, while Dagger seems content to act in a support role, protecting innocents while Cloak munches the bad guys.

But if he's truly Yin, he needs to understand his powers better, and accept the more passive & protective aspects. Similarily, Dagger needs to assert herself more, take a more proactive stance.

Essentially, by reversing their roles, I'd explore what their powers actually ARE, something that rarely rises above a simplistic light/dark duality.

I might break them up for part of the run, just so they can understand that they are a symbiotic pair. But this time, rather than having Cloak run amok because he's out of balance, I'd let Dagger be the one who gains an excess of Yang.

I'll think about this more, and get back to it later today (I have a lot to do this afternoon)
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
16:21 / 26.04.06
Mario: I might break them up for part of the run, just so they can understand that they are a symbiotic pair. But this time, rather than having Cloak run amok because he's out of balance, I'd let Dagger be the one who gains an excess of Yang.

That would be interesting; Dagger as Crazed, Action Figure Girl Jesus, trying to purify everyone because she no longer has Cloak to contain.
 
 
Mario
18:18 / 29.04.06
Just thought I'd come back to this challenge (I had a very busy couple of days).

OK, All-Star Cloak & Dagger.

Issue #1: Start with them doing what they always do. Beating up drug dealers and protecting teenage runaways. The story will be told primarily by the use of narrative captions, which will be revealed as the words of Father Delgado, the pastor of the church that acts as their informal HQ, and director of a youth shelter.

Most of the issue will be an extended flashback to their origins, hinting that there was something special about them that allowed them to survive, almost as if it was destined. End with a comment about how they've acheived a certain balance in their life, although not peace of mind "although I hope that they find it, someday". Contrast this with a mysterious figure sitting in a shadowy, incense-filled room.

Issue #2 will show their partnership cracking under the strain, as Dagger begins having visions where she's symbolically chained to Cloak, who appears more monstrous than ever. Indeed, the entire issue will be told from her point-of-view. While events do not drastically change, her interpretation of them slowly does, as prodded by her visions, and the issue ends with her leaving him behind.

Issue #3 is Cloak's viewpoint issue, as he deals with losing what he thinks of as his anchor on reality. The idea is to slowly discover that he's not going mad, as he expected, despite the mental image of the Predator nipping at his spirit. It might be amusing if, in his mind, Cloak still stutters slightly. This issue ends on the image of a little old guy (remember Rule #1) muttering to himself as he watches Cloak slowly start to discorporate.

Issue #4 will be told from the POV of the villain of the piece, the Jade Claw (because Yellow Claw would never swing in this age), an Asian mystic and alchemist who is behind Dagger's visions, and is slowly manipulating her into his tool. While she goes gung-ho batshit, he narrates, putting his own stamp on her behavior. He's also been manipulating Cloak, with the Predator imagery.

Issue #5 is where the old guy (possibly Gomurr the Ancient, an old X-character) confronts Cloak, and tells him about their roles as the avatars of Yin and Yang, and how Cloak needs to find the balance in himself before he can save Dagger. (He might also reveal the Claw's involvement, possibly as a former or rejected disciple). After a training montage (involving things like tai chi & meditation) the issue ends with Cloak finally confronting a now fully Yang Dagger, who is under the thrall of the Claw.

Issue #6, of course, is when it all hits the fan, as Cloak uses his new awareness to break Dagger free of her conditioning, and they kick the Claw's butt. After his defeat, he will be confronted by Gomurr, who will seal him in a mystical puzzle box or rice cooker. I'd probably also use their new awareness to allow them to tweak their looks (I can see Cloak in a Matrix-esque trenchcoat for example, while Dagger could dress in a trendier outfit with a bolero jacket or something... anything that doesn't require double-sided tape to stay on )
 
 
Spaniel
19:26 / 29.04.06
For me Cloak and Dagger were always at their purest when terrorizing the inhabitants of the city's grimy underbelly, and wallowing in their own angst.

I'll get back to this thread later with my revamp of the characters.
 
 
Aertho
23:38 / 01.05.06
All-Star Jade, if you can believe it. It doesn't really get interesting until they start riffing off each other in the comments, imagining Jennie-Lynn as an urban, contemporary "magical princess" who has adventures in Opal City. If Opal is anything like the Upper West Side, it's worth the ressurection.
 
 
Mario
00:39 / 02.05.06
I like it.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
02:08 / 02.05.06
It would be lovely if someone would do something with Jade. She's the first and only Green Lantern born with the emerald light and it's inside of her; why not make her the Guardian of the Universe? She's a legacy heroine who never got her due and could have grown up into a Mother Goddess.

What about The Outsiders? I've been thinking about this little-respected (little-loved?) team in light of the Justice League thread, and what would my line-up be? I'm in favour of a non-Batman team, mostly because some of his reasons for leaving the League to form the Outsiders were contrived, to be polite. I rather liked The Nail's version of the team: Black Canary, Metamorpho, Rac Shade, Katana, Geo-Force, and Black Lightning. There was something about a non-interference pact that made them more of a loose association rather than a team, and they would only get involved in each other's cases if invited. They don't fit together very well but I think that was part of what attracted me to them, even with all the rest of the confused morass of the story line going on around them; the Doom Patrol are supposed to be the junkyard dogs, the misfits of the DCU, but I think the Outsiders could be somewhere between the kids who smoke out back behind the school and the drama club. Black Canary makes a good leader simply because of her connections and they could be one of Oracle's loose associations.

Not sure what I'd do with their storyline. Possibly something with the lamentable but adorable Masters of Disaster, simply because I love a bitch villainess with water powers named New Wave. I'll throw around some ideas and post them, but what would other people with these losers, who aren't quite the weirdos of the Patrol but just don't fit and don't want to fit?
 
 
Aertho
18:18 / 05.05.06
Let's leave DC for a little while and help out Marvel.

All-Star Challenge: Polaris

Long thought of just another one of the rainbow colored mutant ladies that hang at Xavier's, Polaris is surprisingly more than just green hair. One of the few X-Men to receive a degree off-campus, the woman has a brain... unfortunately, it's one that a lot of people like to mess with. Possessed of immense powers over electromagnetism rivalling Magneto, Lorna Dane has been brainwashed and driven insane more times than your average telepath.

A member of the X-Men, Polaris was also a charter member of the US government sponsored team, X-Factor, and often addressed the media on behalf of her team and spoke out on her views and personal politics. In addition to her tenure there, she also was leader of Sinister's group of ragtag assassins the Maruaders while possessed by Malice, and lived with Magneto on Genosha. Much ado has been made of her parentage, and for now, she's Magneto's mysterious daughter, making her the half-sister of X-Factor teammate and Avenger Quicksilver.

Through her fifty years of X-history, Polaris has accumulated an enormous degree of connections in the Marvel Universe. For your next All-Star Challenge, give Polaris an identifiable and personalized niche in the Marvel U, hopefully with a separate cast than David's X-Factor.
 
 
Mario
20:45 / 05.05.06
Hmm...

I think the only way I could make her work is by exploring her internally. There must be a reason why she has such a predeliction for mental problems, especially "heel turns".

I think I'd start by giving her a "secondary mutation", which is actually her primary one... a chameleon-like ability to adapt mentally to the situation around her. However, this leaves her open to manipulation by strong wills, not always consciously.

My All-Star Polaris story would be a mental journey through her past and her psyche, probably assisted by Doc Samson, which would lead to her discovering that she needs to find the core of her personality, that fixed point, like the North Star, that never moves, although the world around it is ever-changing.

Each issue could cover a phase of her career. The early X-Men days, where she first imprinted on the idea that she was Magneto's daughter. The Malice years. The X-Factor years (probably get a few issues out of that one) and so on.

The climax would be her realization of who she is as a person, not as a daughter, a lover, or a mutant. I'd probably give her a new costume (without the Darkstalkerish collar) to symbolize her new stability.
 
 
Mr Tricks
21:20 / 05.05.06
Tid bits:

During Dagger's conversion to Max Yin she could be Dubbed "SPEAR" by the Jade Claw. In China's Kung Fu lore the spear is considered the "King of Weapons." It can also represent the most Yang aspect of the element Metal in Feng Shui and 5 element theory.

If Cloak gets his own makeover with a "kung fu" master and all rather than a trench coat, give him a cheongsam all wong fei hung/wu tang style. The slit would go from the top of his cheast down to his ankles but would open as needed. (I must draw this).

Meanwhile Polaris has also been possessed by aliens. So I'd suggest some exploration of her being sort of super bi-polar.

Black Canary in the Outsiders would add to her overall "social butterfly" persona. Mostly oblivious to OUTSIDERS history... looking forward to reading the all star outline.
 
 
Mario
21:47 / 05.05.06
I could see that for Cloak & Dagger (tho I had to look up cheongsam )
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
19:05 / 06.05.06
Mario: I think I'd start by giving her a "secondary mutation", which is actually her primary one... a chameleon-like ability to adapt mentally to the situation around her. However, this leaves her open to manipulation by strong wills, not always consciously.

I'd...advocate...against this. One, it reminds me too much of Meggan and her "empathic metamorph" niche that also makes her prone to outside manipulation. Also, I think this sells Lorna short as having to adapt out of mutation than simply out of her personality; if you need a power angle to why she's been brainwashed so many times, maybe her magnetism makes her a bit too sensitive to outside electrical fields, et cetera...

Actually: Lorna Dane as Joan of Arc. The Mutant Martyr? Her magnetism making her particularly susceptible to temporal lobe seizures? She could resist simply out of frustration with always being manipulated...
 
 
Mario
19:16 / 06.05.06
Well, maybe not a mutation, but there's definitely a susceptibility there. I kinda like the "sensitivity to electomagnetic fields" bit. It might tie into the whole "Malice couldn't leave after she possessed her" bit.

In my mind, the key bit is the "finding her fixed point" concept. Lorna always seemed willing to define herself by the people around her.
 
 
Aertho
15:49 / 08.05.06
Here's where I stand with Ultimate/All-Star/Vertigo/Project Rooftop Orion.

Discourse began here.
 
 
Mario
16:12 / 08.05.06
Hmmm... I like the top right and lower left helmets, but the costume itself is much too plain. I'd move away from the "loincloth" look.
 
  

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