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Feminism 101

  
  

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Char Aina
15:33 / 12.02.07
hey, apt.
flyboy and haus' hi-larious points aside, i'd still like an answer, if that's okay.
i am of the them of ignorant. help me to be part of your us of knowing.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
15:40 / 12.02.07
Thanks for all that, Apt. The context was helpful.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:46 / 12.02.07
toskik: learning opportunities here.
 
 
Tsuga
00:43 / 13.02.07
Okay, I wanted to reiterate something I said earlier that I really mean:
I’m much more happy that this is a place where people give a shit about addressing prejudice in the first place than I am bothered by it. “It” being the word use thingy rather than the addressing prejudice, by the way.
And I want to address some of the stuff that people have been bringing up, so as not to shirk their questions, though I don’t know that I can respond fully to everything. Apt Titanium:
Tsuga wrote: I'm really talking more about using the appropriate words to communicate and is making a point about correct use of language, but hasn't yet dug any further into the question of what appropriate or correct use of language means despite the repeated prompts by Disco and Tannhauser.

What caused me to bring it up is only that the words are very loaded; the subjects are very loaded, certainly. What the appropriate or correct use of language means, maybe I’m mistaken in thinking that that would be apparent, and perhaps from my (yes, I am male) perspective I am failing to understand a particular necessity to relinquish my “power” over the words. I’d like to think that words, while powerful, are free to be used if used carefully. I guess I can see how that can not be true, as well. What I may think of as careful may be sloppy to others.

Haus:
In this case, for example, Tsuga is both saying that he does not know what the proper distinction between sexism and misogyny is - he is, he states more than once, not a dictionary - but also saying that people are failing to make that proper distinction and that is annoys him.

I didn’t say I didn’t know the distinction, I’m saying I know what my opinion of the distinction is. I hope that's fair enough? I don’t think I ever said people were not making “proper” distinctions. All I can say, just like anyone, is my opinion, whether right, wrong, or grey. I take great care in trying to qualify my statements, because just like anyone, I don’t know everything. I also totally agree with what Apt Titanium says (and similarly Haus) on this:

The meaning in the word is created by using it, and a dictionary can only tells us where the word has been in the opinion of the dictionary makers, not where it is now in the mouths and typing hands of the people who are currently using it.

Which I think makes the best case for me shutting the fuck up about it, and I’m glad to, really. If, in the lexicon of Barbelith, misogyny is the word used broadly, and maybe as an emphatic, to express gender inequities or the perception thereof, then who am I to disagree?

Apt: I think the question of the purpose driving the wish for correctness and who gets to make that decision is an important one which tells a lot about the hidden structures of privilege and Tsuga has so far avoided it.

I’m not sure what to say about this. I actually have the same kind of feelings about use of other words that have no relation to gender issues, this is just one that I’d noticed here. But it probably was pretty foolish to bring it up. As to whether I am playing into hidden structures of privilege, I surely hope not; if somehow I’m doing so subconsciously, then damn my stupid subconscious and I am sorry. But, I really don’t think that’s it. That’s the thing about ignorance though, isn’t it; to not know what you don’t know. I only know that I don’t know a whole fucking lot.

I am glad to let it drop. But if something is still sorely lacking to anyone in what I've said (beyond simply disagreeing) or feels that this is in the realms of stupid, offensive shit, let me know. And I truly apologize if I've offended anyone, totally not my intent.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
01:04 / 13.02.07
No offence on my part, Tsuga. I think there's definitely an interesting question about how one constructs terminologies - I started trying to put something together about how one would distinguish absorbed-societal-racism and above-and-beyond-the-call-of-societal-racism-racist, and found that interesting. What is parochial, what is xenophobic, what is jingoistic, what is racist? I think the problem, maybe, was the initial positioning as something that (Barb)annoyed, which has coloured subsequent discussion. Maybe if we all collect our thoughts and then have a crack at a Head Shop thread in a bit?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:51 / 13.02.07
If, in the lexicon of Barbelith, misogyny is the word used broadly, and maybe as an emphatic, to express gender inequities or the perception thereof, then who am I to disagree?

It is a word that's used broadly but actually there isn't a problem with you vocalising your disagreement. It's good for everyone here to consider why they use the word misogyny rather than sexism and these things should be up for discussion. The way words are used here is important because it's a purely text based way to communicate and frankly it's not a stupid question to ask.

To reverse slightly to previous threads I think you're wrong on Ganesh's use of misogyny, which fell entirely within the social context of "female hysteria" and its cultural status as a weapon.
 
 
Saturn's nod
18:49 / 13.02.07
I probably need to say, I am also not offended by anything upthread (except the evidence of my own inadequate reading and thinking skills). I am wavering between apologizing for joining in at all and a (perhaps overly self-important) conviction that some of what I had to say adds value. My sense is still that Tsuga's approach has some flavour of exerting male privilege. I can't do any more than I have to explain how, though, and this might still be found unsatisfactory, as he is completely certain it's not the case.

It's true that the beginning of this section being from Barbannoy, with the coincidence of me having recently used the word 'misogyny' in a way that felt like it was probably going to get a lot of disapproval from white men who like their comics meant I was feeling defensive to begin with.

I do agree with you all that it is important to talk about what words mean. I also still think it's worth considering as part of that question the points raised about how that discussion supports or sets back the project of inclusion across gender, but perhaps there's not much disagreement there either.

I feel very much unequal in this kind of discussion, hence my simile above. The way I perceive it the space of gender privilege is unevenly painful and I guess I feel like I need special help and listening to find my way through that into speech. That help that I'm requesting probably looks to some people like maintainance of the inequality.

I worry that I am doing the cause of gender equality harm by my emotive and alarmed responses, and I can certainly see good reason for me to stay out of discussions of gender issues altogether given that I find it so difficult to stay calm. I know some people will read it that I'm trying to shut down discussion, and I think it's necessary to state explicitly that is not my intention. I'm glad that there are cooler heads than mine here and that at least the issues of gender equality are considered sufficiently important to merit discussion, even if I cann ot be helpful in that discussion.

toksik:
At the moment it seems to me that you are promoting the view that language belongs to you and that you have no interest in what is being said until women agree only to use the language that you deem acceptable in ways that you deem acceptable.

could you paste the bit that gives you that idea, so that we can see this promotion in action?

Thanks for your kindness in publically highlighting the bit of that post which shot off beyond the edge of what was justifiable. As has been suggested I was to some degree responding to a whole discourse which was not here on the board, which is not a good idea. I guess your intention, toksik, was to bring the focus on the words that had been written by Tsuga as a way of trying to clarify what I meant. The effect of your strange phrasing ('am of the them of ignorant. help me to be part of your us of knowing.') and informal writing style come across as if intended to ridicule which adds to the unpleasantness of this interchange for me, although I may be mistaken in this as in much else.

To explain a bit more the piece I previously quoted could be read as containing the assumption that Tsuga was able to make the judgement of the appropriate words when the experience of others who were suffering might be thought more important, and that's perhaps the point at the heart of Disco's now much-quoted point.

Tsuga's posture of both annoyance with others' misuse
I get a little annoyed by the seeming unexamined use of the word "misogyny" as though it were interchangable or always preferable to "sexism".
does somewhat undermine his protestations of not being the authority "Looking at it I don’t think it sucks but, like I said, me no dictionary. I’d rather hear more of what other people think about it than continue to hammer out the parsing alone here, because I’m obviously not the final arbiter of language. I’m only trying to point out what I think of as a distinction." as has already been pointed out. (I'm not sure I understand what he has written but I don't think Tsuga has actually yet described the distinction as he understands it, beyond that there is one and it annoys him that other people don't share his as-yet-unelaborated understanding.)
 
 
Ticker
19:10 / 13.02.07
I feel very much unequal in this kind of discussion, hence my simile above. The way I perceive it the space of gender privilege is unevenly painful and I guess I feel like I need special help and listening to find my way through that into speech. That help that I'm requesting probably looks to some people like maintainance of the inequality.

I worry that I am doing the cause of gender equality harm by my emotive and alarmed responses

It is the responsibility of those actively given privilege by the structure to assist in lending support and helping to create safe space for the unprivileged voices. It is the responsibilty of the collective to acknowledge the discourse may often touch upon painful, heated, or emotional expressions. Oppression is not always a bland force to be commented upon from a remote and isolated place.

Apt T, as you would put forth effort to hear another's experience and listen with compassion let us offer it to you in return.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
20:15 / 13.02.07
It's true that the beginning of this section being from Barbannoy, with the coincidence of me having recently used the word 'misogyny' in a way that felt like it was probably going to get a lot of disapproval from white men who like their comics meant I was feeling defensive to begin with.

Well from some white men who like their comics, possibly. But weren't you being a bit unfair? Barbelith is a lot of things, some of them good, some of them bad, but I don't really see how it be construed as a place where sexist behaviour isn't challenged very much as it occurs. And where it's darker, uglier brother gets you banned, really.

Sexism being the product of largely unconsidered attitudes about the way society works, and misogyny being the result of those same attitudes being honed into a form of attack. It's a fine line, and, trying to think of examples of the distinction, I came up short; unless it's possible to describe misogynistic attitudes as those which necessarily leading to criminal behaviour, unless you draw the line there, which doesn't seem reasonable, where do you draw it?

On the other hand though, 'Carry On' movies from the British 1970's are undeniably sexist, but I'm not sure if anyone involved actively hated women, especially not at least some of the cast.

Perhaps the Head Shop, for further discussion?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
20:23 / 13.02.07
I'm with Nina on this one. Why not question our definitions of both words? They're different words- perhaps they're different words for a reason. Maybe they're not, but if we're going to condemn any attempt to figure it out, then we'll never know.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:42 / 14.02.07
Sexism being the product of largely unconsidered attitudes about the way society works, and misogyny being the result of those same attitudes being honed into a form of attack.

Well, hum - I think the original issue here was that specific values were being ascribed to sexism and misogyny (Tsuga's my opinion of what the distinction, above), and there's the ambiguity between acknowledging that as a personal distinction and being annoyed when others do not observe t as well - that is, the disjunction between there being and not being a fundamental authority to the deployment of the terms.

And it feels to me as if Tsuga's intentions are good, and also that Apt Titanium's identification to and reaction to this classification instinct was understandable, in terms of a broader discourse whereby control of terminology is held and used to block reporting and response - which, no doubt, was not Tsuga's intention. And I throb gently along with XK's:

It is the responsibility of those actively given privilege by the structure to assist in lending support and helping to create safe space for the unprivileged voices. It is the responsibilty of the collective to acknowledge the discourse may often touch upon painful, heated, or emotional expressions. Oppression is not always a bland force to be commented upon from a remote and isolated place.


Which I now want to have branded into the forehead of anyone who has used the claim that the other party is responding more emotionally as a way to claim victory, including my younger self. As members of this community, we have to make space, I believe, for many different forms of expression, including those that are highly emotive but still ultimately constructive - although sometimes it is hard to predict the ultimate construction value of a response at the time.

There's a lot of interest here - a spinoff thread on sexism/misogyny, how you break the terms down and why, and maybe, finally, that thread on what happens if you get called an -ist that has been marinading for months now. For the moment, though, I think I have to lock myself out of my suit for a bit - I'll have a think, but if anyone else wants to jump ahead, please do.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
10:56 / 14.02.07
Tsuga, why don't you start the thread that Haus suggests with a definition of the two terms that you agree with and it can be taken from there? Then we can separate the politics of the question out from the basic notion of the two defined terms and let them leak back in a little later.
 
 
Tsuga
23:44 / 14.02.07
Okay Nina, I'll certainly try to do that, though I'm a little reticent. I'll have to do it when I have time, I don't usually have very much concentrated time to write things here. I want to do a decent job and try to participate, though it's pretty much impossible for my posts to coincide with the high-traffic times here.
 
 
Ticker
12:08 / 16.02.07
WACK!

MOCA to Present First Major Exhibition to Examine the Foundations and Legacy of Feminist Art Produced Internationally From 1965 to 1980
 
 
w1rebaby
20:15 / 19.03.07
I just saw, via Pandagon, that there's a blog devoted to basic feminist concepts - Finally, a Feminism 101 blog.

FAQ: I asked some feminists a question, and instead of answering they sent me here. Why?

Your question probably covered ground they have gone over many times before, and they didn't want to derail the interesting discussion they were already having.

People find ignorant questions frustrating, and questioners find being ignored frustrating, and such mutual dissatisfaction can totally disrupt a discussion. By sending you here the feminists hope to avoid being interrupted, yet are also not completely ignoring your question(s).

Maybe you didn't ask a question at all, but stated an argument that denied the importance of the topic being discussed. Feminists naturally don't care for the thought of trying to run you through reams of introductory material before you gain the grounding to realise the basis whereby they perceive an important problem where you may not.

Either way, educating you on the basics would derail the discussion about the actual topic the feminists are interested in, just for you. That's an awful lot to ask of people on the net who don't even know you, isn't it?

This blog exists to give you a few pointers to places you can find more information to answer your question (although we're only in early days yet, FAQs will continue to be added until the basics are covered). Once you are better informed you will be able to contribute to lively feminist discussions productively, armed with facts and theory, even if/when you don't end up agreeing with all the theories.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
08:50 / 06.04.07
Jessica Valenti from Feministing, in The Guardian, on sexism and misogyny online.
 
 
Olulabelle
13:04 / 06.04.07
That happened to me on my blog for a bit. It was really upsetting. An anonymous poster kept saying how boring I was, how dull. I thought, "Then why read it?"

I thought that someone just hated me personally. Now reading that article makes me feel worse because it could easily have just been because I was a woman.
 
 
The Ghost of Tom Winter
13:20 / 06.04.07
I haven’t read all these pages, but I had a question that relates to feminism.
I was wondering how feminist relate ideas of female circumcision and cultural imperialism. For example, I hear the same person say it is wrong for people to circumcise female while next saying it is wrong to impose our culture on to other people. I’m just curious on how these are rectified, I assume based on a level of humanitarianism, but the people I’ve been talking to say it is inhumane to run into a country because of their so-called tyrannical government.

I’ll add that I am by no means saying female circumcision is good and dandy and should be allowed because that’s their cultural practice, I’m just having a hard time coming up with a logical argument when someone says “Let me get this straight, you want there to be no female circumcision yet you don’t want to impose your culture?”
 
 
Saturn's nod
13:31 / 06.04.07
I'm not sure it's a huge issue between us on barbelith, because as far as I know people here don't peform surgical operations, or apply social pressure to enforce having such operations, on each others' children. In my opinion it would be more appropriate if you were to construct a topic post for a new thread, since this thread is intended for discussion of misogyny and feminism on Barbelith.
 
 
Ticker
13:47 / 06.04.07
If Memory serves there are some existing threads on FGM/circumcision in Head Shop. If you bump it I will be happy to discuss the matter more over there.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:08 / 06.04.07
Re: the harrassment and abuse of women online, I'm surprised anyone's surprised. Misogyny on the internet has been an escalating problem for years on end, and since remarkably few people actually ever seemed to give a shit it's not really surprising to see it soaring out of control now.

Even 4 or 5 years ago I was getting abuse for having the temerity to maintain a weblog whilst under the influence of oestragen, which escalated to death threats if I mentioned certain topics (the death penalty is always a good one if you want to enlarge your collection of "I hope you get raped and murdered" comments and emails). I essentially regard my time on the internet as finite now, because if you wear tits and identify as a feminist the teeming hordes of anonymous fuckwits are eventually going to catch up with you and render your internet experience so unpleasant as to be no longer worthwhile.

Even on the "oversensitive" Barbelith outright misogyny has always had its apologists. Male-identified posters employing explicit sexual harrassment against their female "enemies" have continually found apologists and supporters. Even though the worst of these eventually get booted off the site, it takes a lot of time and they can do a fair bit of damage before that happens. Things did improve for a while but I expect them to deteriorate from hereon out.

So "the internet community" doesn't give a fuck, ISPs don't give a fuck, advertisers don't give a fuck, law enforcement certainly don't give any tiny bit of a fuck--what did people ever imagine would stop it from getting to this? Why and how should it ever change? Everyone's got exactly what they wanted--apart from a few whiny bitches who shouldn't even be on the internet anyway. Move over and leave it to the real people (ones with dicks).
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:22 / 06.04.07
I'd also point out that you don't have to be important or a big name or an "e-lebrity" or whatever to get threatened and harrassed to the point where you want to chuck it all in. You just have to be online. That's all. One or two people spreading your details around in the right places can create an elegant sufficiency of grief.
 
 
Ticker
14:54 / 06.04.07
Speaking of the board's issues...

I had a recent discussion with another female id'ing person on the board about how the dynamics of critical attack follow a privilaged pattern here. There's a noticeable chilling effect on people posting subjective experiential viewpoints or feeling their opinion is unwelcome on a variety of topics. The tools of personal attack, including aggressive assaults on questionable posts rather than a moderate first approach, all are part of the culture of bullying.

While being critical of poorily presented and ill thought out posts is something I support, I personally find time after time the method of addressing these posts is overwhelmingly aggressive and negative. The ferocity of criticism without consideration of not only the poster in question but how this exchange intimidates others presents a hostile environment to less confident posters, especially women fearful of internet bullying. In a culture where women are often told to shut up we are not doing enough to support them speaking out.
 
 
*
15:41 / 06.04.07
Tom Winter—Some feminists are African women. If they advocate for an end to female circumcision, whose culture are they imposing, and on whom?

Feminism is not only white women, not only the US and Europe, something that many white feminists forget at times. White feminists can best work for change in countries that practice female circumcision by supporting the already existing indigenous movements and following the lead of people who have a personal stake in the issues.
 
 
HCE
15:42 / 06.04.07
Can you give an example of where you've seen this happening?
 
 
HCE
15:43 / 06.04.07
Sorry -- crosspost -- that was me asking if xk could give an example of where there's been bullying of women so I can take a look.
 
 
*
15:43 / 06.04.07
(Sorry. I need to keep up, don't I?)
 
 
Ticker
17:11 / 06.04.07
gourami sorry if I wasn't clear, I'm not saying bullying of women is happening on the board. what I'm saying is aggressive attacks on posters scares and intimidates some people who then don't want to post their opinions because they worry they'll be attacked. It happens that a large number of these people are female and have this fear from general web interactions *out there*.

I think if you poke around and look at threads with really intense conflict you'll see a couple of common themes. The big one for me is insulting/belittling/attacking the poster rather than just sticking to a critique of their post/argument/point. This value judgment on the poster is what I'm tying into the bullying. What someone has posted is up for review, but we are not entitled to review them as a person unless invited to do so. Undermining someone's right to be heard by belittling them is a tool of the oppressive majority. When you're too stupid, too ignorant, too foolish, and too clumsy why should I bother with what you have to say? If I can dismiss you are as a valid person with a judgment then I can certainly dismiss your opinion.

What I'm after is a conflict resolution style that seeks to make common ground rather than shut people out. You can't educate someone or change their mind if you've just said they're a fucking stupid waste of your time and useless in general. Why should anyone feel welcome to try to express/examine difficult concepts and feelings when contempt is dished out so readily?

That said, I believe the appropriate response to a complete asshat (and they do happen) is a firm 'you are harming others please examine this'. If they don't, then you boot 'em. I'm not up for hand holding screaming bigoted brick fuckers but I do understand the frustration of being told your opinion is invalid because you are unable to use the language properly.

I think it's shameful that some highly intelligent and thoughtful people are afraid to post because 'it might not be up to someone's standard'. That is not a safe place at all.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:20 / 06.04.07
I would also encourage XK, and any others who've experienced this, to offer examples. It is very difficult to address this kind of problem unless we have a clear idea of what we're dealing with. I think it's also important to look at the valuable experiential contributions that people have made in the past in contrast with the long, rambling, offtopic slices of biography which crop up from time to time.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:20 / 06.04.07
Sorry, x-post
 
 
Ticker
13:51 / 07.04.07
I'd rather not post examples but have folks go reread what comes to mind as conflicts. I'd rather not draw the lens of critique to any specific posters but instead encourage folks to just look at what they write during conflict. Feel free to PM me directly if you want to talk about specific examples.
 
 
Papess
20:35 / 07.04.07
You can't educate someone or change their mind if you've just said they're a fucking stupid waste of your time and useless in general. Why should anyone feel welcome to try to express/examine difficult concepts and feelings when contempt is dished out so readily?

Darn good points, XK.
 
 
Papess
20:46 / 07.04.07
Oh, and as examples, this rang high on the arrogance meter today. Both, Epop and BiaS. What is with that? I think it is rude.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
22:26 / 07.04.07
What is with that? I think it is rude.

*spits milk out of nose, despite being at work and having no milk, or (possibly) no nose*

That thread just makes my head all sick and hurty.
 
 
Princess
22:30 / 07.04.07
Beep! Beep! Misogygy Occuring!

Epop manages to call everyone stupid and claim rape is central to love, or something awful like that anyway. I'm still digesting it. If clever, angry, lateshift people could come be clever and angry about this then that would be lovely.
 
  

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