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Feminism 101

 
  

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*
03:24 / 13.07.06
Last fall I ordered someone to leave my house for a similar statement, and suggested to the person who invited him that he never be invited back. I don't think that was an overreaction. If someone is a friend of mine, when I tell hir that I take rape seriously and I don't want to see it trivialized in any way, ze'll respect that. If not, we aren't friends.

I don't see what's so complicated about this issue. And I reserve the right to scream at anyone, even a woman who has not herself been raped, who thinks I need to just "lighten up" about a statement like that.
 
 
*
03:31 / 13.07.06
Now, if it were in any way plain that rapists were the butt of the joke, somehow— and no, at the moment, I can't think of any way of doing that successfully— my opinion might be different.

Come to think of it, it's telling that it's easy to make jokes targeting rape victims, but difficult to even come up with one that targets a rapist. I can imagine a nearly-comedic situation where someone feels that ze needs to rape someone, and runs around looking for a victim with zero success due to ridiculous obstacles and unbelievable coincidences. I suppose a skilled humorist could do something with that. Still, it's a stretch.
 
 
Ex
07:11 / 13.07.06
I'm a bit wordy myself, and thus liable to overestimate things word-based, but I don't think you're overestimating this at all.
MSN is a word-based medium. If someone had this slogan on a T-shirt, or greeted you with it whenever you met them, would you feel more justified in being repelled?

I have no idea of the original lyrical/musical context. The act of repeating it completely out of context seems fucked up - I'm a fan of the Tiger Lillies and some of their songs involve fragments of lyrics I wouldn't want to stick up online.

For me, it seems to not only trivialise rape, but to reinforce myths about rape, as well. The idea that only attractive people get raped can shade over into the idea that if you're looking deliberately attractive, you've in part inviting sexual assault; also, that unattractive people are implausible victims of sexual assault because who'd want to; and the overall idea, which might be a bit complex to get into, that rape is about overwhelming sexual desire. A lot of feminist stuff in the 1970s was pointing out that it rape is not the spontaneous overflow of horniness, but about power, control and violence. Happy to expand on that a bit if it seems useful.

Also, although it seems slightly defensive to point it out, I still have a sense of humour. Entity - I saw some jokes in a stand-up routine at the weekend which involved sexual assault but which I think took it very very seriously, and I thought they were funny. I wouldn't repeat them in company I didn't know bloody well, and particularly wouldn't stick them up online, but I don't think this is about an absence of humour, Franca Folia.

So, yeah. Wouldn't dig into the big Alice Walker bucket of thought often, but 'No person is your friend who demands your silence'. That doesn't mean they can't respond to what you say, but they can't expect you not to speak.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:14 / 13.07.06
I reserve the right to scream at anyone, even a woman who has not herself been raped, who thinks I need to just "lighten up" about a statement like that.

And I'd reserve the right to scream at someone who had been raped. Suvivour status does not automatically give anyone the right to be the final arbitrator of what is and is not funny/acceptable, or to demand that everyone else experience antagonistic JOKE!1!!s in the same way ze does.
 
 
Ex
07:53 / 13.07.06
And a lot of people cope with traumatic acts by downplaying their importance. So I don't think it would even be an unlikely response from a survivor of sexual abuse.

I wish I could add something more profound to this observations than '...fuckettyfuck.'
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
08:18 / 13.07.06
And a lot of people cope with traumatic acts by downplaying their importance. So I don't think it would even be an unlikely response from a survivor of sexual abuse.

Just so. "Survivor right" is tricky; one person's coping may be distressing for another. I'd say that the burden lies with the lighthearted; that someone, even with the "right" to make light of it, should ensure that their audience will not be offended. This may even run contrary to a deliberate desire not just to make light of things but to do so in a way that establishes to others that one is "over it"; a "fuck you" (ha!) to rapists.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:16 / 13.07.06
Last fall I ordered someone to leave my house for a similar statement, and suggested to the person who invited him that he never be invited back.

Does anybody else find it incredibly fucking difficult to ask for this kind of thing? Like you're the one in the wrong?
 
 
Ex
10:30 / 13.07.06
I thin it's partly because the burden it put on you to 'spoil' the interraction. If you just don't mention it, then everything is superficially fine - it can feel very rude to point out things that are quite unarguably dodgy if they're presented in a polite fashion or with the expectation that they'll provoke amusement.
 
 
Lugue
14:44 / 13.07.06
id's an entity thing:

I don't see what's so complicated about this issue. And I reserve the right to scream at anyone, even a woman who has not herself been raped, who thinks I need to just "lighten up" about a statement like that.

What's complicated is essentially the interaction between the notions I've been developing as to this and the actual social social context I'm in and it's implicit rules, which makes me wonder whether I'm just being a bit of a nutcase - I increasingly feel that I'm not, and that's it's best to be "excessively" reactionary to bullshit than going to the other extreme of having no issue of taking anything as okay to be insensetively played with (as said female's posture seemed to imply would be, y'know, not that bad). And of course I realize that she has no authority simply for her gender, but in a way, since she is a female, I did feel that she was more entitled to assess what kind of humour she accepts. I'm growingly convinced that's a bullshit concept itself.

Come to think of it, it's telling that it's easy to make jokes targeting rape victims, but difficult to even come up with one that targets a rapist.

Which is probably somewhat telling of the priorities of those who do joke about this sort of thing as to who exactly seems the more appropriate object of disrespect, I guess?

Ex:

MSN is a word-based medium. If someone had this slogan on a T-shirt, or greeted you with it whenever you met them, would you feel more justified in being repelled?

Hmm... I think what complicates the issue is that MSN (this sort of program in general, really) is somewhere between a private and a public space - it's not exactly being exposed to just about anyone, but those who this person allows into his list. Only that encompasses a whole lot of people, and a whole lot of space for different interpretations already, leading to it being pretty much impossible to read whether his point is anything other than offense - and I do think it's something that should be obvious from the get-go, which might have been clearer in a more private space, where his intentions were more explicit and as such more easily assessed (though I don't, indeed, see how they could be anything other than shit, which is convincing enough). Not sure how to put this more clearly, sorry.

For me, it seems to not only trivialise rape, but to reinforce myths about rape, as well. The idea that only attractive people get raped can shade over into the idea that if you're looking deliberately attractive, you've in part inviting sexual assault; also, that unattractive people are implausible victims of sexual assault because who'd want to; and the overall idea, which might be a bit complex to get into, that rape is about overwhelming sexual desire. A lot of feminist stuff in the 1970s was pointing out that it rape is not the spontaneous overflow of horniness, but about power, control and violence. Happy to expand on that a bit if it seems useful.

Yes, I'm sorry for not acknowledging the greater depth of the phenomenon - in the end, I stuck to the superficial content of the phrase itself. Which I suppose ends up reflecting how this can affect me (and anyone else), in terms of how I view rape and it's gravity and full nature, if I allow this sort of thing to, on a very banal level, pass me by, and accidentally nudge my mind towards a simplification of the phenomenon - which is surely the most dangerous effect of this sort of treatment of such complicated issues (particularly when consistent: I honestly can't think of moments in daily life when people refer to rape other than in jokes)?

And I'd reserve the right to scream at someone who had been raped. Suvivour status does not automatically give anyone the right to be the final arbitrator of what is and is not funny/acceptable, or to demand that everyone else experience antagonistic JOKE!1!!s in the same way ze does.

This certainly seems an important point to remember. It reminds me somewhat of the way that I approached said second female friend as corresponding more than me to the fictional object of that sentence, implying that she has a greater capacity, intelectually or morally, to assess the lyric's gravity. Which is, on reflection, wrong. Meaning, I think I'm becoming more willing to trust my judgement than running along with some concept of entitlement others have for being actual targets of the offensive material (or, in this case, a purely potential target, I suppose), seeing as, I suppose, there's as much space for them fucking up as there is for me, ultimately.

Thanks for the thoughts, everyone. Nice to see it led to some, hmm, nice wordiness.
 
 
Thorn Davis
07:40 / 14.07.06
"Come to think of it, it's telling that it's easy to make jokes targeting rape victims, but difficult to even come up with one that targets a rapist. I can imagine a nearly-comedic situation where someone feels that ze needs to rape someone, and runs around looking for a victim with zero success due to ridiculous obstacles and unbelievable coincidences. I suppose a skilled humorist could do something with that. Still, it's a stretch."

There's a genuinely funny passage in Money by Martin Amis where the main character tries to rape his girlfriend and she kicks that crap out of him and he gives up because it's too much effort. Erm, that doesn't make it sound that funny but it works in the context and style of the novel.

As for the AC comment on the previous page; I don't really find that offensive or trivialising because it's striving so hard to be offensive that it implicitly acknowledges the seriousness of the act. If the band are sitting round thinking "what's the worst thing we can possibly say on our new record?", which has always been their MO and they come up with that lyric it's not really trivialising it, it's giving it the status of a terrible, terrible thing to say. That's usually my reaction to such things. I find it more offensive in something like - say - Species 2 where the rape scene plays out like a titillating Benny Hill sketch because there's nothing to suggest that the film-makers are aware that that's a *bad thing*.
 
 
Char Aina
08:40 / 14.07.06
how do you feel that context carries over to an MSN handle?
 
 
Thorn Davis
08:52 / 14.07.06
It's even lamer, I suppose, because at least the band put a minimum amount of blunt invention into their vulgarity that's necessarily absent when all the guy in question has done is quote it, but it still only makes sense to repeat if you're well aware that it's an ugly sentiment. It's childish, for sure, but in trying to be shocking it's still demonstrating an awareness of the massive negative connatations.
 
 
Char Aina
09:08 / 14.07.06
sure.
does an awareness of it's weight make it more acceptable?
or are you just describing your response relationship with the phrase?
 
 
Ex
10:00 / 14.07.06

Yes, I'm sorry for not acknowledging the greater depth of the phenomenon


- not at all, just elaborating on why it freaked me out as a phrase.

the interaction between the notions I've been developing as to this and the actual social social context I'm in and it's implicit rules, which makes me wonder whether I'm just being a bit of a nutcase

This happens a lot to me. Seeing offensive things where other people don't, in terms of trying to explain it, can be a bit like seeing giant rabbits.
Although I don't think there's a single 'objective' position on these things, you don't seem excessive (I know this may sound patronising, but it's nice to be reassured - I frequently ring up chums I trust and check in with them that my persepctive is reasonable eg. the week before last that feminism hasn't Gone Too Far, and that gay-targeted safe-sex leaflets are not a major cause of homophobia).
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:24 / 07.09.06
So Mathlete and I agreed (woah!) that some of the discussion going on around about here (although you'll need to scroll up for the context) should probably be taking place in this thread. Two basic issues came up (apologies for paraphrasing for space reasons, shout if I'm fudging):

1) How can "a man who loves the ladies" be a misogynist, even slightly?

2) Is the phrase "take girls out" in any way sexist?

Now, Mordant has covered 2) pretty thoroughly here (although I'm always cautious about the infantilising thing - although it can often be the case, I don't think it's necessarily always the case, given how common the terms 'boys' and 'girls' have become together, which certainly reflects something about our culture but not necessarily its misogyny). Would anyone like to have a crack at 1)?
 
 
pointless & uncalled for
10:34 / 07.09.06
All depends on how the man in question perceives ladies, feminine psychology and the female role in modern and reasonable social contexts really.
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
10:47 / 07.09.06
I'll post what I said there here;

Ok - that makes sense, but is not my intention. seeing as I'm only 22, I just don't think of the girls I have dated as women, in the same way as I think of myself as a guy, or a boy, or a fella, but not a man. I'm just not old enough yet. But thinking about it, it is a bit disrespectful. I don't mean it to be, but I guess it is. Gonna have a think about this one.

With regards to "taking girls out", that just boils down to the fact that every first date I've been on has been initiated by me, and as such if its me asking a girl out, then when we go out its me taking her out. By the same token if the girl wants to take me somewhere, then she's the one taking me out. And that happens too. So it's less about power, more about which one of the couple suggested the place. But saying "we went" is probably better.


With regards to the lovin' the ladies migoynist, my reply was slightly flippant, as I explained in thread.
 
 
pointless & uncalled for
10:54 / 07.09.06
"taking girls out" is different from "taking a girl out" though.

I'm inclined to challenge objection of the use of the word "girl" on the grounds of linguistic morphing in almost exactly the same way as the word "gay". Perilously close to reclamation of racial perjoratives but I don't think that's it.
 
 
Saturn's nod
12:26 / 07.09.06
1) How can "a man who loves the ladies" be a misogynist, even slightly?

Perhaps it's a flavour of the "nice guy"? For example as mentioned by Lindsay Beyerstein on Majikthise, Rants for the invisible people, Bitch, PhD, and Amanda at Pandagon?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:30 / 07.09.06
I don't think it's even that advanced - even before we get to the "nice guy" archetype, I was thinking of the sort of hairy-chester love-god archetype, "I don't hate women - I love them all, they are each sexy in their own special way, grrrrrowl!"
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:37 / 07.09.06
Shadowsax also said that he could not be a misogynist because he loved women. I don't think we need to take the idea that anyone who claims to love women is not an any way open to accusations of misogyny seriously, but then I'm not sure that anyone _was_...
 
 
Saturn's nod
13:03 / 07.09.06
I've written some stuff about sexism and racism and mulitculturalism over in switchboard, and I wanted to link it up to this thread.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:11 / 07.09.06
Thank you, SN.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:43 / 07.09.06
Shadowsax also said that he could not be a misogynist because he loved women. I don't think we need to take the idea that anyone who claims to love women is not an any way open to accusations of misogyny seriously, but then I'm not sure that anyone _was_...

I think the key here is that "love" and "hate" are fairly nebulous concepts, and the way "hate" is used in the etymology of "misogyny" is not the same way "love" is used in the concept here of "loves women". See also paedophile- one who "loves children".
 
 
Olulabelle
17:09 / 07.09.06
Yes, that whole definition of 'love' is inherently creepy. It means 'like to look at, like to touch, like to smell, like to taste, like to fuck'.

It means the woman is objectified, she is a 'nice thing,' she is 'for' something and she fulfils a purpose - probably that of making the woman-lover 'feel good'.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:35 / 09.09.06
(On the 'girl' thing--yes, I'd certainly agree that it's not necessarily infantilising or offensive; it can be affectionate, friendly, good-natured. Much depends on the context, and the prior behaviour of the person using the term is certainly context.)

I think the fact that a male misogynist* can hide behind his 'love' for women makes prejudice against women an interestingly different kettle of fish to prejudice against another group based on, say, sexuality or race. I'm reminded of the hopelessly sexist David Brent's line in The Office: "How could I hate women? My mother was one!" Few homophobes are going to claim that they 'love' gay people, and they certainly aren't going to marry one; a racist is unlikely to have one parent who represents the 'wrong' ethnicity. Yet a man can harbour all sorts of appalling attitudes towards women and still profess to love them; can have girlfriends and wives, and daughters. He may never even recognise that his attitudes to women are in any way problematic, and he certainly won't recognise them as hate. I've seen men use anti-female hatespeech while one arm is round a girlfriend's shoulders. I've seen fathers use anti-female hatespeech in front of young daughters. The dissonance doesn't even register.




*Coz there are plenty of female ones too...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:53 / 09.09.06
It's not entirely unhead of when it comes to race, though. "I love black people - they're so chilled out and spiritual!", etc...
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:46 / 09.09.06
And homophobes using religion as a defence may claim to love gay people: "I just want them to stop sinning!"

The interesting thing for me is that in the case of bigotry towards women, it's very likely that the misogynist has at least a few close, intimate relationships with the object of his prejudice.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:06 / 09.09.06
And, when I've come across male mysogyny, quite often it's based on a bad relationship with a woman- a mother they argued with, a girlfriend they split up with- or, which is similar but different- a lacked, but wanted, relationship- a mother who they didn't know, a woman who would never think of going out with them...and this informs their concept of women as a whole (and frequently "as whores").

I'm not suggesting that this misogyny is these women's fault, mind- it's often down to some inability on the man's part.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:16 / 09.09.06
Thing is, pretty much any man alive can trot out at least one 'she done me wrong' story but not every man ends up hating women. I've known perfectly decent guys whose mothers were ogres and who had shitty luck with women, yet never came to generalise those experiences across all women. I think misogyny contains a strong element of choice.
 
 
Persephone
14:06 / 09.09.06
It's not entirely unhead of when it comes to race, though. "I love black people - they're so chilled out and spiritual!", etc...

Oh for sure, like Asian fetish/yellow fever. Trust me, you never want to be in a bar being talked to by some guy who's telling you how he's fascinated by Asian culture & angling to meet your mother. For some reason these guys always want to meet your mother. I have seriously been told to my face that Asian women are nicer because they're quiet and cooperative.
 
 
grant
16:00 / 09.09.06
Tell me you had a large stick nearby.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
16:05 / 09.09.06
Agree w/ Mordant and Persephone.

Which reminds me- once I found myself about to mention Hayao Miyazaki films to a Japanese woman, and then stopped and looked awkward- for pretty much the reasons you'd outlined, it looked as if I was expecting her to know the films just because she was Japanese (while I for example have nothing to do with Love Actually or Kinky Boots and would kill if that was suggested). Yet, even that awkward stop looked dodgy, and probably was. Oh well.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
11:26 / 14.10.06
And now, Cage Dancing. A bit of a mine-field, really, and it's causing some problems as one half of a couple I know wants to do it (just a one-off thing) and the other really, really doesn't want her to, and I'm in the middle not knowing what to think, so I'd like to know what the 'lithers felt about this and other exotic dancing and so on from a feminist perpective...
 
 
StarWhisper
14:53 / 14.10.06
I don't really know what feminism is. I have a very vague idea, can I have an explanation or some recommended reading please?
 
  

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