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Feminism 101

 
  

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alas
03:03 / 28.05.07
The person who communicates there is a problem with something, is then percieved as the source of the problem.

Yes!! This is exactly the problem.

thanks. So simple, but that's exactly what I experienced earlier this year: I complained about issues contributing to a sexually hostile working environment and was told explicitly by more than one asshole/student that I was creating a hostile work environment by insisting the behavior stop. Sigh! It is always this way.

Bold--I don't think I have any advice for you, but just sympathy. This was exactly the kind of battle I was fighting this spring, and it's draining and hard. I heard such astonishing things from "really nice guys." I was just astounded how, when it came down to it, many progressive, intelligent men STILL really don't get some very basic issues about oppression and how it works.

And the problem is not just a kind of being "offended." It's about being harmed, feeling threatened, and being oppressed systematically--at multiple levels by multiple means through multiple venues. Marilyn Frye uses a cage metaphor in her essay "Oppression," which is such a helpful essay I'm going indulge my vice of long quotation:

The statement that women are oppressed is frequently met with the claim that men are oppressed too. We hear that oppressing is oppressive to those who oppress as well as those they oppress. Some men cite as evidence of their oppression their much-advertised inability to cry. It is tough, we are told, to be masculine. When the stresses and frustrations of being a man are cited as evidence that oppressors are oppressed by their oppressing, the word "oppression" is being stretched to meaninglessness; it is treated as though its scope includes any and all human experience of limitation or suffering, no matter the cause, degree or consequence. Once such usage has been put over on us, then if ever we deny that any person or group is oppressed, we seem to imply that we think they never suffer and have no feelings. We are accused of insensitivity; even of bigotry. For women, such accusation is particularly intimidating, since sensitivity is on eof the few virtues that has been assigned to us. If we are found insensitive, we may fear we have no redeeming traits at all and perhaps are not real women. Thus are we silenced before we begin: the name of our situation drained of meaning and our guilt mechanisms tripped.

But this is nonsense. Human beings can be miserable without being oppressed, and it is perfectly consistent to deny that a person or group is oppressed without denying that they have feelings or that they suffer….

The root of the word "oppression" is the element "press." The press of the crowd; pressed into military service; to press a pair of pants; printing press; press the button. Presses are used to mold things or flatten them or reduce them in bulk, sometimes to reduce them by squeezing out the gases or liquids in them. Something pressed is something caught between or among forces and barriers which are so related to each other that jointly they restrain, restrict or prevent the thing’s motion or mobility. Mold. Immobilize. Reduce.

The mundane experience of the oppressed provides another clue. One of the most characteristic and ubiquitous features of the world as experienced by oppressed people is the double bind – situations in which options are reduced to a very few and all of them expose one to penalty, censure or deprivation. For example, it is often a requirement upon oppressed people that we smile and be cheerful. If we comply, we signal our docility and our acquiescence in our situation. We need not, then, be taken note of. We acquiesce in being made invisible, in our occupying no space. We participate in our own erasure. On the other hand, anything but the sunniest countenance exposes us to being perceived as mean, bitter, angry or dangerous. This means, at the least, that we may be found "difficult" or unpleasant to work with, which is enough to cost one one’s livelihood; at worst, being seen as mean, bitter, angry or dangerous has been known to result in rape, arrest, beating, and murder. One can only choose to risk one’s preferred form and rate of annihilation.

Another example: It is common in the United States that women, especially younger women, are in a bind where neither sexual activity nor sexual inactivity is all right. If she is heterosexually active, a woman is open to censure and punishment for being loose, unprincipled or a whore. The "punishment" comes in the form of criticism, snide and embarrassing remarks, being treated as an easy lay by men, scorn from her more restrained female friends. She may have to lie to hide her behavior from her parents. She must juggle the risks of unwanted pregnancy and dangerous contraceptives. On the other hand, if she refrains from heterosexual activity, she is fairly constantly harassed by men who try to persuade her into it and pressure her into it and pressure her to "relax" and "let her hair down"; she is threatened with labels like "frigid," "uptight," "man-hater," "bitch," and "cocktease." The same parents who would be disapproving of her sexual activity may be worried by her inactivity because it suggests she is not or will not be popular, or is not sexually normal. She may be charged with lesbianism. If a woman is raped, then if she has been heterosexually active she is subject to the presumption that she liked it (since her activity is presumed to show that she likes sex), and if she has not been heterosexually active, she is subject to the presumption that she liked it (since she is supposedly "repressed and frustrated"). Both heterosexual activity and heterosexual nonactivity are likely to be taken as proof that you wanted to be raped, and hence, of course, weren’t really raped at all. You can’t win. You are caught in a bind, caught between systematically related pressures.

Women are caught like this, too, by networks of forces and barriers that expose one to penalty, loss or contempt whether one works outside the home or not, is on welfare or not, bears children or not, raises children or not, marries or not, stays married or not, is heterosexual, lesbian, both or neither. Economic necessity; confinement to racial and/or sexual job ghettos; sexual harassment; sex discrimination; pressures of competing expectations and judgements about women, wives and mothers (in the society at large, in racial and ethnic subcultures and in one’s own mind); dependence (full or partial) on husbands, parents or the state; commitment to political ideas; loyalties to racial or ethnic or other "minority" groups; the demands of the self-respect and responsibilities to others. Each of these factors exists in complex tension with every other, penalizing or prohibiting all of the apparently available options. And nipping at one’s heels, always, is the endless pack of little things. If one dresses one way, one is subject to the assumption that one is advertising one’s sexual availability; if one dresses another way, one appears to "not care about oneself" or to be "unfeminine." If one uses "strong language," one invites categorization as a "lady" – one too delicately constituted to cope with robust speech or the realities to which it presumably refers.

The experience of oppressed people is that the living of one’s life is confined and shaped by forces and barriers which are not accidental or occasional and hence avoidable, but are systematically related to each other in such a way as to catch one between and among them and restrict or penalize motion in any direction. It is the experience of being caged in: all avenues, in every direction, are blocked or booby trapped.

Cages. Consider a birdcage. If you look very closely at just one wire in the cage, you cannot see the other wires. If your conception of what is before you is determined by this myopic focus, you could look at that one wire, up and down the length of it, and be unable to see why a bird would not just fly around the wire any time it wanted to go somewhere. Furthermore, even if, one day at a time, you myopically inspected each wire, you still could not see why a bird would gave trouble going past the wires to get anywhere. There is no physical property of any one wire, nothing that the closest scrutiny could discover, that will reveal how a bird could be inhibited or harmed by it except in the most accidental way. It is only when you step back, stop looking at the wires one by one, microscopically, and take a macroscopic view of the whole cage, that you can see why the bird does not go anywhere; and then you will see it in a moment. It will require no great subtlety of mental powers. It is perfectly obvious that the bird is surrounded by a network of systematically related barriers, no one of which would be the least hindrance to its flight, but which, by their relations to each other, are as confining as the solid walls of a dungeon.

It is now possible to grasp one of the reasons why oppression can be hard to see and recognize: one can study the elements of an oppressive structure with great care and some good will without seeing the structure as a whole, and hence without seeing or being able to understand that one is looking at a cage and that there are people there who are caged, whose motion and mobility are restricted, whose lives are shaped and reduced.


Maybe it's this problem of the non-oppressed oversimplifying and simply not seeing the scope of the problem faced by oppressed others--it sounds liket you're facing smtg like that, BIHB. You're trying to get them to see a cage of systemically related impediments, not just some random obstacles that "we all face at some point;" they must see that these are not just random instances of violence offenses that have the power to actually stop one from achieving one's goals or force one to downsize expectations for the future.
 
 
Papess
12:48 / 28.05.07
Thank you, alas! What a fabulous essay. The fact that men are not oppressed for being men, while women are oppressed because they are women is a key point of oppression.

The very idea that men are oppressed because of the oppression of women, is somewhat ridiculous to me. "Oppression" is different than "repression". Are they implying that women are oppressing men? Or are (those) men just feeling oppressed because of the demands of their socio-political status, as it is defined, supported, and perpetuated by men? I just don't understand this argument. How can those with "power" and political clout make claims to oppression? Is this not in a way saying - yet again - that women are secretly in control, and are making the choice of submission (to men) and therefore forcing men to take a position of control. Again, that argument - that men are victims of the oppression of women - I find a bit distasteful, because it implies (to me, at least), the old story of she was asking for it. :eyerolling taking place:

BIHB: I am not entirely joking with the sarcasm. I am certainly afraid to speak up about sexism. I have learned to laugh along with men that I have hung out with, while they were being particularly offensive. I didn't want to lose my friends! So I never said much. If I did, I was seen as the problem and the "men are oppressed to" argument may have come up. Or even worse, I would just be dismissed as angry and bitter.

One particular statement that men I used to hang with would say was, "There are only two kinds of women in the world - strippers and waitresses." or "We should have never let women have the vote.". Oh sure, these were said in jest, but it gets old quite fast. Especially, when it is said repeatedly throughout the friendship. I didn't really find it funny, I found that hurtful. But I had to just shut-up and deal with it, because it is just a joke, I wouldn't want to be a killjoy amongst my male "friends".

I commend you for your efforts, BIHB. It is hard to risk friendship, and being seen as "the one with the problem", to try and address these issues. I hope your friends will come around and begin to comprehend what you were trying to explain to them. Particularly the incident about the "inappropriate touching" (If I recall, correctly.). I cannot express the hurt when people you trust actually care about you invalidate sexual assaults, or even just the uncomfortablness of inappropriate behaviour, as something that the woman should just "have to deal with". Why is it not the responsiblity of the inappropriate person to change their behaviour or actually own the behaviour, at the very least? To not be believed, or for the incident to be minimised, has been my experience in my relationships with males, consistently. The same response even with some femalesl mostly due to my former profession.

F**k, I am angry about this.
 
 
Ticker
23:54 / 29.05.07
Thank you! That is a really great example!

It was really hard this weekend (being a holiday weekend & social)getting shitty vibes thrown at me by one of the men (the one who didn't particpate overly much in the original discussion) for being a troublemaker. He told his female housemate I brought conflict into their home. She tried to reframe the original discussion along comparitive lines of racism to make it more visible but still I got unpleasant treatment from a friend.

At this point I don't care how much of a troublemaker I am. I have always tried to support people who are being oppressed when I witness it and now I feel even more solidly it is required. I just want to learn how to hold itup more clearly and how to lend support without speaking over the other people.

I told my sensei about the whole thing and sought her opinion as she does conflict resolution. She said it changes the world, not just the people involved, when these conversations happen with open hearted and handed intent. My Gods did I need to hear that!

Sisterhood is Powerful I've got this book and read it every once in a while when I feel smushed, pressed down if you will. It reminds me women and their supporters have been fighting this for a long time and it is getting better slowly. The cover art is a rasied fist inside of a female symbol.



..and I tell you as much as some of my friends tease me about it being the international symbol for fisting I seriously think about getting it tattoo'd on as a reminder.

Every time someone regardless of their gender shuts down feminism or denies sexism is happening in the world I want to have a gentle reminder that their's is just one view. (sometimes I feel like I'm talking to a holocaust denier or have taken crazy pills). Worse is when women tell me they don't support feminism because it's anti family and anti men. (the people who think it's pro lesbian and pro paganism I hafta agree with ; )

I was excited to find a used copy of bell hook's Feminism is For Everyone book but it was obviously a used course book and was marked up pretty badly. I have to get a fresh copy.

As I seem to be generating an impromptu booklist I highly recommend Cunt which gave me permission to leave movie theaters during rape scenes. I should get the updated version...

Anyhow I'm sorry you got smushed, alas and Justrix, and I appreciate you witnessing this current episode in my life. It really does help to get validation!
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
00:11 / 30.05.07
What struck me about that whole story, on reflection (correct me if I'm misreading here), was how the female housemate's reluctance to live with this person because he did something that made her feel that her basic safety was threatened was apparently reframed as a punitive action necessitating a kind of trial with a presumption of "innocent until proven guilty." It had to be established beyond reasonable doubt that this individual had done something wrong because she was "punishing" him by saying that she didn't want to have him LIVING IN HER BLOODY HOME, rather than setting limits as to the kind of behaviour she felt okay with.
 
 
Ticker
00:27 / 30.05.07
Yup. To add: the males involved in the conversation felt that having to turn away the person in question was correct, however the discomfort of doing so was something to have sympathy over. I and the other female felt that turning away your close friend because he was inappropriate was not something one should feel badly about at all. AT ALL. But rather a moment to instruct him with if so inclined.

Onto the next front...

I just detailed the bird cage analogy to someone and they told me the problem with feminism is framing it from a victim's point of view. I think I am gobsmacked and not quite sure how to wrangle this. Part of the problem is I'm discussing with someone who is aware I believe reality is what you make it. I'm trying to discuss how the oppression of sexism doesn't just exist because one chooses to admit/frame/or pereive it as such.

Ow. Ow.Ow. Not have enough brain power for this! Help! Send Kitteh Filter!
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
00:38 / 30.05.07
I feel increasingly defeated by the idea of trying to get anyone to accept anything, ever, if it makes them uncomfortable.

I have this whole big theory where this ties into the way that mainstream media has essentially rejected any form of empiricism in favour of convenience such that fewer and fewer people are prepared to evaluate information rationally, preferring instead to view any and every datum presented to them as an artifact of a certain perspective, easily rejected if one merely shifts the perspective to a different point or concocts a different metaphor. But then I start ranting about humanities graduates and the Guardian, and how New Scientist has got very shit, and then I have to lie down.
 
 
Ticker
01:14 / 30.05.07
Oh don't get me started on the dumbing down of the media...

As to the victim self perception thingie...
Do you think it would be helpful to frame it in the following way:

A survivor of a traumatic event may elect not to source their identity solely from the experience but to ignore it is influencing them or informing their world view in anyway is to take an overly reductive and ultimately untenable view.

I am not a victim because I choose to see myself as such yet to acknowledge there are external forces which would make me a victim does not make me complict with those forces.

What you think?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
02:33 / 30.05.07
Well ... smoking a bowl, and mellowing out about the whole situation isn't a good thing, maybe, but is it a bad thing?
 
 
*
03:54 / 30.05.07
I don't know, Gran. Why don't you go try it out and report back.
 
 
Saturn's nod
06:49 / 30.05.07
I just detailed the bird cage analogy to someone and they told me the problem with feminism is framing it from a victim's point of view. I think I am gobsmacked and not quite sure how to wrangle this. Part of the problem is I'm discussing with someone who is aware I believe reality is what you make it. I'm trying to discuss how the oppression of sexism doesn't just exist because one chooses to admit/frame/or pereive it as such.

Louise Hay's pocket book 'Empowering women: every woman's guide to successful living' might be a help: her framework is 100% 'create your own reality' but she can still speak truthfully about the programming for failure that so many women have taken in under conditions of oppression.

Her narrative is one about being truthful about lack of success, and fixing it. Her approach is that if we love ourselves enough we will not tolerate oppression, and she believes lack of self love can be fixed with her methods.

Her tone is encouraging, and she writes about many areas of women's lives, including her own experience of finding a commitment to speaking out about sexualised crimes after an employee of hers was found to be abusing. She writes from a perspective which is about women finding their power, and then refusing to enable oppressive behaviour, always speaking out when wrong is done. I guess it's the kind of model the suffragette movement employed: withdrawing obedience, & that inspired Gandhi to organise civil disobedience as well when he studied their campaigns.

I have a dollop of suspicion towards any system that requires those who have suffered most to become godlike in their compassion and competence. That said I think Hay's approach has utility and it's one of few books I've found which make a serious attempt to help ordinary women achieve liberation in their lives.

As in so many other situations about the struggle against gender conditioning, don't you think the 'victim' language have been presented as a double bind? If we use our power to hold our consciousness and speak the truth about the effect of sexist behaviour on us, people get to tell us we're 'being victims' and 'denying our power', and if we don't raise our consciousness to recognize it and speak out about it we get to ... be victims, and enable the behaviour to continue.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:10 / 30.05.07
Granny, I realise you're only trying to lighten the mood a little, but jokes about angry feminists needing to take something to calm down are a bit problematic.
 
 
Sibelian 2.0
20:38 / 30.05.07
problem with feminism is framing it from a victim's point of view

I simply don't understand this, what IS "framing" feminism "from a victim's point of view?" Feminism is an attempt to relieve women (and men, actually) of the worthless baggage of the oppressive, illogical control structures that have, in fact, made them victims! How else can one "frame" a discussion involving the interested participants around such issues WITHOUT addressing this?!

Does one accuse a person whose house has been burgled of having a "burgled" mindset? No!

Where IS this "frame"? What colour is it? Is it a square frame? A triangular frame? A cucumber frame?

I want to SHOOT people who use this weaselly frame crap.
 
 
Quantum
21:04 / 30.05.07
At this point I don't care how much of a troublemaker I am

That, to me, sounds like a fine position to take.

I wanted to add my male amateur-feminist perspective- when I think about oppression and the silencing, self doubt etc. that women experience, I feel bad (because I'm a part of the gender most responsible).
Then, I feel a bit better because I realise that at least I don't blame your evil wimminz powerz and accuse you of oppressing me for making me feel bad, WTF is that about? I know it's a little bit like consoling myself that I'm less evil/stupid than someone who's evil and stupid but it is some small consolation to me.
I find one of the most difficult things is avoiding treating women like sex objects when they are very charming intelligent and attractive. Flirting- even very mild flirting going nowhere- is a tricky business. So far I've been succesful in my attempts not to harass people (as far as I know...) by maintaining respect and being aware of personal space and body language. It's very difficult not to stare at someone when they are so attractive they make your stomach free-fall, which I know is applicable to anyone of any gender, but for me it plays into a heteronormative stereotype that is unpleasant (the Lecher) so I feel bad.
But at least I'm not blaming the attractive people for oppressing me with their fabulous smile or whatever.

PS- I just remembered this thread is on feminism on *Barbelith*, so please replace 'fabulous smile' with 'fabulous brane'. The flirting issue is very much reduced for me here because I honestly don't know if a poster is f-id half the time and it's much harder to invade someone's space accidentally in text. Not that it's impossible mind you.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:07 / 30.05.07
I get pissed off with all the "oh you're playing the victim, you're in the victim mindset." I fucking hate the way any attempt to address any kind of oppression is automatically represented as trying to make excuses or cadge a free ride.

I for one don't see myself as a victim and I'm not trying to evade my responsibilities. I'm trying to claim the responsibilities and duties I see as mine and that that are taken out of my hands because I'm seen as unfit to be given them. Give me my responsibilities dammit!
 
 
alas
21:12 / 30.05.07
I have this whole big theory where this ties into the way that mainstream media has essentially rejected any form of empiricism in favour of convenience such that fewer and fewer people are prepared to evaluate information rationally, preferring instead to view any and every datum presented to them as an artifact of a certain perspective, easily rejected if one merely shifts the perspective to a different point or concocts a different metaphor. But then I start ranting about humanities graduates and the Guardian, and how New Scientist has got very shit, and then I have to lie down.

and

her framework is 100% 'create your own reality' but she can still speak truthfully about the programming for failure that so many women have taken in under conditions of oppression.

Are interesting to me in that these two discordant statements seem to be getting at the tension I regularly experience here. I am a humanities PhD, but I too get frustrated because students so often want to just say, "Well, we just have different opinions." (Or, to paraphrase Granny, "Just go smoke a bowl and stop being so bitchy.") As if the difference of opinion should, if we were really polite and caring people (see Frye above!) we would just take the revelation of our differences as an end to the conversation; we would not try to determine which opinion is the more valid, which metaphor the more useful, which offers the most sound perspective, at this time.

Although I know it's tempting for some science-types to blame the humanities for this (and I'm not sure that's what you're doing, TTS), or post-structuralist thought (a favorite of conservatives), that's really not fair or an accurate view of what we do in the humanities or how the most powerful post-structuralist analysis operates. A very lazy approach to humanities and/or post-structuralism can readily result in that idea, yes, but as you note, the same is true of a lazy approach to science that we see in too much journalism/popular approaches to science: "oh, those scientists--one day X is good for you, the next day we hear there's a study that says it's bad. I never listen to them."

The bigger culprit, I think, is the consumerist ideology that shapes all of us, and all media, and all students' in their approach to academic studies. This is perhaps more obvious in the US. The estimate is that Americans experience 5,000 commercial messages per day. Many Americans now define ourselves in relation to brands.* Here's what I see happening: "You shop at Wal-Mart; I shop at Target. You drink Diet Pepsi; I drink Diet Coke. You vote Republican; I vote Democrat. You do your thing & I'll do mine. You live in your enclave; I'll live in mine, and we need never talk about these differences. In fact, if someone brings our differences up (e.g., fucking uptight, humorless, non-bowl smoking feminists!), and 'makes' us discuss these differences (even in a classroom), and especially if some of those 'angry feminists/black people/environmentalists/fill in the blanks' make us try to come to a consensus and shape our community around our decisions/understandings... If they make us act as if our political and philosophical perspectives actually matter more than whether we drink either coke or pepsi (other non-branded options having become non-existent in some worlds), they are actually disturbing our peace, and are being, in fact, needlessly uptight."

So yeah, my first reaction to granny was definitely "fuck you, granny."

I feel I am an empiricist in many ways BUT I'm ALSO very concerned that we recognize that our 'facts' are only understood, on a cultural level, as part of a story, and metaphor is inevitable. We are very good at making maps of the world (laboratory conditions are a kind of map-making institution). These maps are wonderful and they do help us to more accurately "see" our reality, but they always remain maps. So we need to retain that bit of skepticism toward even the best of our facts.

However, this does not mean that all maps, ideas, stories, "facts" are equally valid, equally helpful, equally accurate. And re-framing our narratives, finding new metaphors, more precise ones, can be very helpful for many reasons. We HAVE to look for them, we need to discuss them, because we HAVE to share this planet. Our lives ARE affected, every day, by the kinds of social worlds we're creating. Anyone who believes otherwise is probably selling us something, or has bought the dream of the consumerist fantasy island.

*Check out this NPR story about "Word of Mouth" advertising--this quotation in particular "Communications professor Walter Carl says the public may be more ad-savvy than in Barnum's day, but in other ways, we've become more susceptible. Tape-recorded conversations collected at the University of Texas in the 1970s, Carl says, show very few references to specific brands. 'Now, some of my research indicates that 15 or 20 percent of our conversation includes a reference to a brand product or service,' he says."
 
 
Quantum
21:13 / 30.05.07
Good example- I love Sibelian's brain (it is teh sexxy) but I don't know if ze id's one way or another. In fact, it wasn't until my SO asked about some post (gardening I think?) 'Has she tried X' that it even occurred to me to consider the issue. (Hi Sibelian! I love your brain!)
 
 
Ticker
23:46 / 30.05.07
Part of the difficulty I was expriencing in my last conversation was because the person I was talking to didn't understand why the label for a specific transgression was more useful to me with the 'sexist' tag then simply 'asshat' tag (well, 'asshole' but you know).

So they were confused as to why a physical transgression, inappropriate unwanted physical contact, needed to be positioned in an lineage of specific social conflict. The very smart person pointed out that in conversation abstracts are almost never useful teaching tools where as specifics are.

As discussed upthread a few pages back, is the language employed by Feminist theory no longer effective in direct non abstract dialog? Is it more helpful to frame certain inappropriate actions as just shitty without providng a greater social context?
 
 
Ex
08:15 / 31.05.07
Is it more helpful to frame certain inappropriate actions as just shitty without providng a greater social context?

Sometimes yes, if you're trying to geta point across and the person is very very resistant to hearing anything to do with gender. But usually I don't think it can be. In part because gender sets up (in some instances) exactly parallel expectations, which can make it very hard for one gender to understand why the other gender is pissed off and harassed by certain behaviour.

(I've been thinking about this a little recently, so forgive me if I'm just riffing on your sitch.)

Particularly in terms of sexual approaches and phsyical interactions. If you say to standardchap: 'How would you like it if you were approached all the time, if you couldn't sit on your own in a public place without a women coming over to try to pick you up?' then many will reply 'Gosh, that sounds fantastic! Here I am, constantly expected to make the first move - you're describing a Utopian dream!' (I am wildly generalising - I think people's experiences of sexual attention vary a lot between individuals.)

So you really need to address that imbalance of expectation if you're trying to describe why a chap grabbing a woman in a way not of her choosing is not just asshat, but predictable-asshat, supported-by-social-systems-asshat, probably-influenced-by-gender-asshat and ultimately quite probably sexist-asshat. You can't just say 'Don't grab people' (although it's a very good rule of thumb), because it's quite possible for the counter-argument to arise that being grabbed in a sexual fashion is a flattering or amusing occurence.

If you sketch in some background about what women's bodies are supposed to do and be, what the 'normal' distribution of active and receptive is supposed to be in heterosexual relationships, how often women gets randomly grabbed, and what that kind of thing can imply/mean/threaten, the whole thing becomes very different.
 
 
Ticker
10:53 / 31.05.07
Thanks Ex, and everybody for helping me decompress over all of this. I really feel much better plopping these on the table for us to look at collectively.

I have a dollop of suspicion towards any system that requires those who have suffered most to become godlike in their compassion and competence.

I do to, and yet it seems if you wish to educate and communicate with people a non hostile compassionte approach works the best.

I did btw suggest to the person who got all fist table slammy to instead sing out to express his frustration. I'm not sure what song he is going to pick but I think it maybe a better mode of signalling extreme frustration without triggering memories of abuse. It might break the conversation but hopeful not other people.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:24 / 31.05.07
I just detailed the bird cage analogy to someone and they told me the problem with feminism is framing it from a victim's point of view. I think I am gobsmacked and not quite sure how to wrangle this. Part of the problem is I'm discussing with someone who is aware I believe reality is what you make it. I'm trying to discuss how the oppression of sexism doesn't just exist because one chooses to admit/frame/or pereive it as such.

A lot of people have this problem with feminism, especially women because they feel like if they accept feminism they make themselves inferior to men. Feminism doesn't equate with empowerment for a lot of people, it equates with lack of power, inferiority, being a subject and not a citizen. Clearly the rejection of feminism that then comes about is counter-productive and absurd but I think that we have to be sympathetic towards people when they express those kind of opinions, it's actually really normal for people to feel that recognition of a problem constructs disadvantage and subsequent problems. On top of that the problem with the bird cage view is that if you don't lean towards seeing systems or being able to consider abstracts it's really difficult to envisage all the different elements it introduces and put them together, even with a guide to the process written down, that's why oppression can be so hard to put out as an idea.
 
 
Ticker
17:17 / 05.06.07
Can I get some comic friendly Feminists to particpate?

A couple of ya are in there already (thanks!) but I feel this needs some more interaction.
helps?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:03 / 20.06.07
A bump, since Claris Dancer has resurfaced here, and said of this thread I still support everything i said there.

He has also raised the possibility that the good people of Barbelith are extremely set in their ways and hostile about it. I think this thread is a good example of how that is demonstrably untrue. I would say that over the course of this thread, the collective attitude of the board towards various issues, in as much as a consensus can be said to exist, went through a process of examination and change. The fact that the end result did not noticeably include people deciding they were just being oversensitive and should get over it, or agreeing with the statement that:

There have been too many women seeking power over men claiming they were raped when they were not. They "believe they need an unfair advantage" as Dworkin would say. Rape is horrible and shouldn't exist, but some women do capitalize on the emotional impact of it for their own gain.

...does not a bunch of hostile stick-in-the-muds us make.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:07 / 20.06.07
Not to mention, of course, that rape is not an important enough thing to look up some basic facts - for example on the legal status of marital rape - before sounding off about it. We saw this attitude before from Shadowsax - that rape was a bad thing, obviously, but not, ultimately, an issue that was very interesting, compared to the big issues, like women pretending to be raped to get power over men.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:40 / 20.06.07
Is there actually a great deal of emotional impact associated with rape then? (Except for the victims, that is, and they're probably making it up anyway.)

The impression I've been getting from a lot of people who've posted on the topic around here is that it has far less emotional impact that reading about people getting their cars keyed or their wallets nicked. Sensitive Fuckwad didn't seem terribly impacted (although he really was a special kind of shitbird). Neither have all the other people we've had queueing up to mouth off about crying rape in this thread and elsewhere, or their supporters. The emotional impact of rape seems to be pretty much limited to horror stories about false accusations. Never mind that rape is under-reported, woefully under-prosecuted, and that false allegations are no higher than for any other crime--we must all be ever-vigilant for the evil harpy who cries rape to get an unfair advantage.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:53 / 20.06.07
...in place of what one might call an emotional response, what one tends to see is more of a pre-programmed series of reflexive behavoirs, like a very complicated version of a knee-jerk or like the anomolous sequences of actions associated with certain kinds of parasite.

Those affected can talk about pretty much any other kind of crime reasonably rationally: "Oh, someone's wallet got nicked you say? How awful for hir, I do hope ze's all right." Mentioning the r-word though seems to completely take some brains offline; you can almost hear a sort of *glunk* noise as the higher reasoning functions shut down, the eyes glaze over, and the fists slap clumsily against the keyboard to produce a string of text which whilst having a certain kind of internal logic actually displays little or no connection with the real world: "Well yes it is terrible if it actually happened but women do lie about this sort of thing and think of the falsely accused lives ruined women can also be violent you know Myra Hindley Rose West mrrrhhn mrhhnn slobber mash mash BRAIIINNNNSSSSS."

Like rats with toxoplasmosis wallowing in cat pee.
 
 
Papess
16:58 / 20.06.07
...we must all be ever-vigilant for the evil harpy who cries rape to get an unfair advantage.

Ah yes...the advantage of never feeling settled, safe, or worthwhile. Or the advantage depression can have in your life! These women should be thankful for the unhealthy relationships they can develop now, and the consequential damages from that. For instance, drug addiction! If the pain of recall is too much, you can just self-medicate, ladies...but do stop the whining on and on about it!

/sarcasm

I suppose these women should just get real, the rape is over, so move on?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:15 / 20.06.07
"Some women have fantasies about that sort of thing after all not like she was a virgin going out dressed like that/not like she was getting much action looking like that [delete as applicable] if a man were to get raped by a woman you wouldn't see him calling the police and when you think about it is it really worth sending someone to prison over eh that's all I'm saying lurch shamble GRAHHHHHUGHHHHbrains."
 
 
*
17:23 / 20.06.07
"People carrying money around in their wallets are just asking for it and it's not like they don't have enough and to spare you know what I'm saying if I got my wallet stolen you wouldn't see me carrying on like this and anyway people do lie about things like this to get power over people and it's all just a machination of the clever capitalists who want people to be able to keep their money all to themselves that's all I'm saying *gurgle*"

Why is it that people think this argument works for rape and they don't think it works for theft?
 
 
grant
17:28 / 20.06.07
Actually, I've seen it used for theft, too -- "flashing money around" "wearing jewelry" "took camera out of its bag".

That's probably part of the problem.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:34 / 20.06.07
In what sense, grant? In the sense, presumably, that the same kind of douchetools who believe that women habitually invent claims of rape to get power over men (or domestic violence, of course) also habitually think of rape as a crime on a level, roughly, with petty theft?
 
 
grant
17:46 / 20.06.07
Yes, more or less - the linking of rape to instant desire or a kind of mechanical fulfillment of needs. The "See thing=Want thing" kind of criminal opportunism doesn't really apply to rape as a crime, although it's tempting to think of it on that level - or, more importantly, as following that same mechanism.
 
 
*
17:47 / 20.06.07
I don't think it's nearly as common or reflexive, nor does it depend on the identity of the victim and the perpetrator in the same way. There's not the delusion that a particular group of people (women, people with money) are all going around inviting this kind of behavior (rape, theft) and/or lying about it occurring. Maybe largely because the people who make this kind of complaint are usually members of the group 'people with money' while they are frequently not members of the group 'women.'
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:52 / 20.06.07
Well, I think the idea is that suggesting by your appearance that you are a woman is basically equivalent to having a prominently-placed wallet.

Of course, it is fairly uncommon for people like Qwik to claim that wealthy people are pretending to have been robbed in orde to gain power over pickpockets.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:56 / 20.06.07
Meanwhile, I thinkI would like to start a banning or pre-banning thread for Qwik. In particular, I don't think that women, especially women who have suffered sexual assault - and it would be a statistical fucking miracle if no such people exiisted on Barbelith - should have to put up with this shit. However, his attitudes, freely and vehemently expressed, are also, of course, disrespectful to black people and indeed to white peoople who are not as proud to be white as he is - essentially, he is assuming his audience are made up of people just like him.

However, I don't think it should be expected for women, in particular women who have suffered sexual assault, to have to deal with a person who has already made it clear that he is prepared to accuse them of making it up to gain power over men, and in this case over him.
 
 
Quantum
18:20 / 20.06.07
Hear hear. Sometimes I want a virtual vigilante to swoop down and delete a poster while we all half-heartedly say 'Oh, come on, that's a bit premature isn't it oh well bye'
 
  

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