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Feminism 101

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17:12 / 14.10.06

Eidenfracar, I think starting at the very beginning of this thread might be a good idea then.

17:43 / 14.10.06

I can think of scenarios where exotic dancing might be an empowering experience. If the venue was run by women, the pay was honest i.e. reflected the buisiness being done on the night by the venue. The venue was safe and clientelle respectful, or else... I can imagine that the prospect of showing ones hot bod off to an oggling crowd who could not touch even though they ached to, hell yeh! Wouldn't that be true for blokes too, in a Chip n Dale stylee.

Not sure about the cage though, hmmm. i supose it is a very theatrical prop and there is some thing to be said for the cage not being the prison for the slave, but the protection for the crowd GGGRrrrowwrr?

I wish your mate the best of luck finding somewhere safe for her to play.

Disco is My Class War

05:13 / 15.10.06

And now, Cage Dancing. A bit of a mine-field, really, and it's causing some problems as one half of a couple I know wants to do it (just a one-off thing) and the other really, really doesn't want her to, and I'm in the middle not knowing what to think, so I'd like to know what the 'lithers felt about this and other exotic dancing and so on from a feminist perpective...

Legba, I'd suggest that it's pretty much her choice, and that her partner should get out of the way, whatever his feelings. It's her body, not his. More importantly, what's he scared of? Is this conflict about something deeper?

I'm going to map out a few different feminist interpretations of that scenario, though. Some feminists might say that she should have control of her body, whatever she does, and that misogyny might manifest just as much in the male partner's desire to control his female partner's behaviour so he doesn't have to deal with her being regarded as a sexual being by anyone else, as in the actual scene of the 'cage dancing' per se. A radical anti-porn feminist might say that the woman in this situation is the victim of false consciousness, and that though she might believe it's her choice to cage dance, she's deluded. Marxist feminists might ask if she's going to get paid for objectifying herself, and how much, ie will her sexualised labour be exploited?

There's a queer, women-only strip club in Sydney called Gurlesque, that sometimes tours to Melbourne, where I'm from. It's regarded by a lot of the people who perform and who attend as a place where women can play do stripping and sexually explicit performances in a feminist space, without having to deal with men who grope, ogle, or worse. I have a couple of friends who perform there regularly, and who really like it -- for them it's a totally queered space. On the other hand, from all reports some of the women who attend performances can treat the performers like they're property, at times... So making the space women-only doesn't necessarily subtract the problem that many people are likely to exploit and objectify women who present themselves as explicitly sexual beings. It's complicated.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

10:06 / 15.10.06

I didn't think Legba had specified the partner's gender.

Disco is My Class War

10:23 / 15.10.06

True, but tell me why a query about a gay or lesbian couple worrying about cage dancing would be in the Feminism 101 thread.

If I'm wrong, I apologise.

10:25 / 15.10.06

You gratified that with a response. I'm impressed. You spelled my name wrong by the way.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

10:35 / 15.10.06

We also don't know the genders of the people who'd be watching the cage dancing- if a lesbian woman wanted to do it in a mixed bar, and her partner disapproved, I'd say it was just as relevant.

I don't know the genders either, mind you. Legba hasn't really given us a great deal to go on.

12:28 / 15.10.06

Dita Von Teese (Burlesque performer) said interesting things doing erotic performance in her interview on Woman's Hour this week.
(Could I be more WI?)

12:59 / 15.10.06

It is not W.I to listen to Womens Hour. It is normal and right and everyone should do it regardless of gender.

13:06 / 15.10.06

eirdandfracar: You spelled my name wrong by the way.

I'm sorry I spelt your name wrong. I've copy pasted it this time.

You gratified that with a response. I'm impressed.

Why on earth did you post it in the first place then if you didn't think it even deserved a response?

Tryphena Absent

13:09 / 15.10.06

Hey, what's wrong with being a bit W.I.?

13:21 / 15.10.06

Absolutely nothing at all. To celebrate and embrace my Women's Institute-ness, here is a picture of a cake. I could make one just like that right now (if I wanted).

And, lest anyone should ever forget, a picture of Tony Bla getting booed at the WI Conference.

Hurrah!

miss wonderstarr

15:25 / 15.10.06

her partner should get out of the way, whatever his feelings. It's her body, not his. More importantly, what's he scared of? Is this conflict about something deeper?

I tend to think (I am open to convincing otherwise) that regardless of gender and sexuality, in a committed romantic relationship (as implied by "partner" I think), the partner's views should have some bearing on a person's decision.

If you love someone and they're a big part of your emotional life, then I don't think they should usually be expected to just step out of the way if they're concerned about or unhappy with something you're doing like a job choice. I feel that ultimately you have the decision, but I do think their feelings should usually be taken into account ~ that is, I think usually you would want to take their feelings into account, both because they're someone you trust and respect, and because you don't want the person you love to be unhappy (with provisos ~ that is, as long as them being happy doesn't involve something that makes you unhappy).

In short, within a romantic "partnership" I think the partner's views are usually worth considering, and don't usually deserve to be responded to with "step aside, what are you afraid of here? what's the real conflict behind what you're saying?" If the partner is someone you'd want to challenge in that way, disregarding their concerns, then I'd say it wasn't a great relationship.

I don't mean to be snarky with you here, Mister Disco. I see your point in terms of a man trying to stop a woman exposing her body in a way he's unhappy with but she's fine about. I suppose I'm making a broader point about relationships, which is perhaps less relevant to this specific case.

Disco is My Class War

16:44 / 15.10.06

I'm thinking that gender is probably relevant, to think about the possible political/personal configuration of factors that might be relevant. But if it were a lesbian couple, it might be exactly the same. Who knows.

miss wonderstarr, I wasn't saying that one should never consult a partner in decisions like that.

miss wonderstarr

21:18 / 15.10.06

OK!

21:29 / 15.10.06

Re: the lapdancing issue, it does seem a little much to suggest that the guy(?) concerned should 'get out of the way, whatever his feelings.'

As a notional guy, I'd imagine that if I announced that I was going to get involved with a potentially dangerous, and actually fairly time-consuming subculuture, such as, I don't know, buying a season ticket for Manchester United on the basis that I was doing research for a book on the subject, and thus wouldn't be around at the weekends for a year or so, and I was asked, in no uncertain terms, not to go ahead with it, I'd give it some thought.

If you're consciously putting your career/drug habit, sexual kink/etc ahead of your relationship, as opposed to just unconciously (which I dare say the best of us does every now and again) then it might time to re-evaluate the situation.

Quite apart from anything else, dating a lapdancer would be pretty much a logistical nightmare in terms of actually seeing hir, unless you worked at night, too.

22:44 / 15.10.06

Alex, we don't have a lot of details, but Legba did note from the start that the woman in question was not interested in a career in lapdancing but just a "one-off" experience. So your analysis doesn't really apply to this particular case.

23:52 / 15.10.06

I don't know, alas - if this character was strictly interested in a 'one-off' lapdancing experience, wouldn't that severely minimise hir chances of being hired in the first place, at least if ze was honest about hir motives when speaking to the interview? I mean if you're only going to show up on the first day, puttting yourself forward for this kind of thing does smack a bit of cultural tourism.

If it's genuinely a 'one-off' I'm not sure if it's a reasonable course of action. It seems so pointlessly cruel.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

00:04 / 16.10.06

Hang on, weren't we talking about cage-dancing rather than lapdancing? I'd say there's a definite difference already, even just on the level of audience interaction.

Disco is My Class War

04:59 / 16.10.06

Wow, Alex, and I thought I was making certain assumptions about the situation. But you've turned cage dancing into lap dancing, all without the benefit of Legba's further description of the actual situation, and suddenly this woman is not only guilty of putting her 'sexual kink' before her relationship, but also cultural terrorism. Class.

miss wonderstarr

06:41 / 16.10.06

Tourism or terrorism?

pointless & uncalled for

07:31 / 16.10.06

If the venue was run by women

I'll need this explaining. If we work from a scenario where no other elements of of the establishment or the situation were a feminist issue, what is the problem with men operating a business which involves cage dancing?

08:54 / 16.10.06

It was a lame attempt at humour, sorry.

All Acting Regiment

09:54 / 16.10.06

Info...It's a female potential cage-dancer, the partner is a male, the venue is going to be attended largely by males. Thanks for your responses so far, btway.

16:13 / 06.11.06

Nielsen Entertainment recently did a study and "found that among the roughly 117 million Active Gamers in the U.S. in 2006, more than half (56%) play games online, and that 64% of all online gamers are women." [Article.]

This isn't exactly Barbelith related as such, but I found it - and the comments underneath the article - interesting in the context of women and the Internet.

16:29 / 06.11.06

I would say that if this woman wants to try cage-dancing and revel in her sexuality then why shouldn't she? If her partner has difficulty with that, it says more about their relationship than cage-dancing and possibly his issues with female sexuality and his own.

17:28 / 06.11.06

that was fascinating thank you Celane!

Our Lady Has Left the Building

17:28 / 30.11.06

A new Dove advert which does the same as that flash thing that shows how a fashion shot is changed from the reality. As usual they're showing the beautiful people/image and pretending that they're ugly, so that they're just like everything else.

Still, at least they seem to have stopped the campaignforrealbeauty, but instead there's the Dove Self-Esteem Fund which 'help young girls grow with a stronger sense of self-esteem'. But again, all the women featured on the site look attractive to start with.

18:08 / 30.11.06

I didn't ever have much of a problem with the campaign for real beauty though, I thought it was marginally better than the rest of the wank that passes for advertising on the simple basis that it was at least featuring average sized women. That's not to say that I have fallen for the hype - I'm well aware that Dove are just following the latest trend in order to sell soap, and that they have little real interest in the size or shape of women, but on balance, if we have to have advertising at all I would prefer their brand to the promotion of abnormal thinness that is most other cosmetic brands.

21:06 / 03.12.06

a femisim reader from feministing.com that i thought might be of interest to anyone asking the 101 question 'why feminism?'

it's not exactly in the remit of this thread, but i thought it might warrant posting.

Hydra vs Leviathan

20:33 / 17.12.06

Absolutely no idea whether this thread is the appropriate place to ask this, but it seems vaguely logical... has anyone got a citable link for who it was that "originally" used the phrase "the personal is political"? Or is it a slogan that entered general feminist consciousness without particular attribution?

21:17 / 17.12.06

I did a quick google and came across this. Hope it helps.

Hydra vs Leviathan

10:26 / 18.12.06

Right. Sounds like it may have been coined independently in several different places at several different times, and therefore not have one "origin" as such. Will have to just look for one of its reasonably early and "definitive" usages...

17:27 / 08.02.07

ARGH!!!

CNN:The What Monologues?

%Gawds forbid if you have to explain what a vagina is to a child.%

22:32 / 08.02.07

ARGH!! is right! Little girls shouldn't know what a vagina is? I have no words. No words. Certainly not words like HOOHAA.

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