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Feminism 101

 
  

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Dead Megatron
13:57 / 21.03.06
Is this just me? Anyone else think this?

I completely agree. It's something I've noticed a fair bit - a lot of anarchists for instance, have got machismo and hatred of authority mixed up with being revolutionary (Class War springs to mind).


I agree too. Some people mistake misanthropy and, even worse, mysoginy with "being revolutionary".

But, threadroting a bit, let's be frank: is there anything truly revolutionary going on in Barbelith nowadays? If there is, please point it to me.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:10 / 21.03.06
Winky thinky, Dead Megatron. This is a thread where we talk about feminism.
 
 
*
18:33 / 21.03.06
Just more evidence that sexism still exists and is still killing people.
 
 
invisible_al
19:36 / 21.03.06
To be honest challenging people's predjudices towards women seems pretty revolutionary to me DM. I mean it might not be as sexy as 'fucking shit up' but it's actually the kind of thing that does change society.

In other news anyone see this story about Women in Cumbrian hospitals winning an equal pay award worth 300m? It's so large because the discrimination against part time workers was so widespread for so long, it is the largest pay award in British history.

Equal rights? You should be so lucky if you were a nurse, cleaner or cook.
 
 
Joy Division Oven Gloves
20:16 / 21.03.06
Bea Campbell did a follow up piece to that story

Equal Pay Case

The article suggests that the size of the award actually caused the UNISON leadership to down play it. It gives you some sense of the scale of the problem of unequal pay, and how siesmic a shift to a more equal footing would be.
 
 
Dead Megatron
20:20 / 21.03.06
To be honest challenging people's predjudices towards women seems pretty revolutionary to me DM. I mean it might not be as sexy as 'fucking shit up' but it's actually the kind of thing that does change society.

Point taken. Maybe it's me who's mistaking "sexy" with "revolutionary".
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
06:02 / 22.03.06
I consider the fact that we've been able sit down and have a serious discussion of feminsm, sexism and misogyny without it degenerating entirely into lots of people ranting about teh eval man-hating feminazis!!! (with a side order of how one of our mates met a bloke in a pub once that had got a black eye from a woman, a few lengthy and detailed variations on the theme of Well It Would Be Okay To Hit A Woman if..., and that joke about the woman with two black eyes) to be pretty bloody revolutionary.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:44 / 23.03.06
That UNISON pay case was really astounding. (Maybe it deserves its own thread, as the ramifications are so broad?)

It kind of shames me to read about it in light of the fact that I've never really stood up and done anything about sex discrimination. I've had several opportunities to blow the whistle on firms with dodgy hiring and employment practices, but somehow I just never got it together.
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
12:24 / 31.03.06
maybe this should go somewhere else, if so let me know...

one of my friends is currently experiencing a lot of harrassment on her way to and from the place where we work, and I'm trying to figure out what to do about it. Not only is it clearly making her feel shitty right now, but as she's pointed out it's only going to get worse as the summer gets hotter and there's more and more guys out there in a worse and worse mood. As bad as I already feel, I'm worried that some time late at night there will be a real possibility of physical threat as well. Here's what I've tried so far:

I listen to her tell me how much it sucks and have no problem agreeing with her about it sucking. I don't know how much this actually helps.

I have offered to walk around with her whenever she wants, and have done so a couple of times, which she seems grateful for. However I obviously can't always be there. No one has ever said anything when I was there, so I've had no opportunity to tell them off about it, which I suspect would only make things worse for her when I wasn't there anyway.

I performed a small ritual to keep safe people who leave our workplace (lots of kids come in and out of there and sometimes get into trouble too so it seemed like a good idea to do it for everyone, though I had a little juju left over and sprinkled it on her chair when she wasn't there.)

Other than that I don't know what to do...the only authority figure I might invoke would be the cops who already are quite aware that this is a troubled neighborhood and are probably more interested in cutting down on the drugs and shootings than verbal harrassment. In the long run I guess it'd be nice to try and improve the neighborhood's situation, which is theoretically why we're working at the boys & girls clubs in the first place and hoping to offer diversity training in the near future for the youth.

Short of dressing up like a big black bat and lurking around on the rooftops, I have no ideas and I feel kind of useless. Suggestions would be very welcome.
 
 
illmatic
12:46 / 31.03.06
Where is the harrassment coming from? Is it from a place of work ie building site? If so, you could go and complain to management. If, as you seem to impy, it's just coming from guys on the street, God knows - short of informing the police. If, you're in a youth club, do the kids you're working with know the people doing the harrassing? Possibly they could have a word?
 
 
illmatic
13:03 / 31.03.06
I'm worried that some time late at night there will be a real possibility of physical threat as well.

You should do everything you can to avoid this. Including alerting the authorities, changing routes to and from the club to something safer if possible, letting work colleagues know if there are any problems, making sure she's got a fully charged mobile phone and numbers to "phone in safe too" etc etc. I am slightly more paranoid about this stuff than most people, but, it only needs to happen once.

Interesting link here to Anti-Street Harrassment UKwhich has links to a lot of useful articles.

Also found a recommendation for this book which might help: Back Off: How to Confront and Stop Sexual Harassment and Harassers
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
13:33 / 31.03.06
thanks, appreciated!

the building is surrounded by empty lots which are public hang-outs. they get broken up by the cops a few times a week.

sadly we're paper-pushers and we don't work directly with the youth but we are slowly getting to know them and be recognized in the neighborhood as people who work in the club. I'm sure that's a good thing.
 
 
illmatic
14:32 / 31.03.06
Woops, didn't look at your profile. There's an anti-harrassment US as well, if you do a quick search.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
08:54 / 12.04.06
Catharine MacKinnon: "We're now in a stage where people want to believe that there is equality. They'd rather deny inequality than face it down so that they can actually live it. My task is to support their belief in that equality while at the same time unmasking everything around them that is making it impossible for them actually to live in it."
 
 
Saturn's nod
21:57 / 16.04.06
Interesting list of male privileges in an article about feminism & gaming, thanks (id)entity.
 
 
Saturn's nod
10:21 / 18.04.06
I think we might have an example of "Miss Triggs" in Woman Friendly Barbelith companion thread, anyone else see it that way?



Female ID's posters make & agree a suggestion
Male Id's poster makes suggestion again as if nothing had been said, upon which happening, the suggestion is acted on.

At least in this example on Barbelith, there is immediate recognition that it had previously been suggested, which I know does not always happen without "some uppity woman making a fuss about being ignored".

The Miss Triggs cartoon is used as an example in this page about Gender Issues in Management, which I think provides some good exercises and questions for people who want suggestions about examining their use of language with regard to reducing others' experience of sexism.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
10:37 / 18.04.06
It's a good point, and I expect Ganesh would like to have it brought to his attention, as I would assume he didn't mean to consciously claim a woman's suggestion as his own.

I often feel that my posts are passed over in discussion, and assume this is because I'm still relatively new; and also because on Policy I don't have any moderating status, so don't "count" (or at least this is how I feel). It would be interesting if gender came into it.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:51 / 18.04.06
Isn't this me, rather than Ganesh? I think that I was assuming that anyone reading the thread had read the thread, and was therefore familiar with this strand of the discussion. It might be more profitable to think of this as "non-moderator makes suggestion, moderator repeats suggestion, says he will go ahead and propose a change if nobody objects, nobody objects, moderator proposes change". I don't think Miss Triggs is in it, in particular since, with all due respect to Miss Wonderstar, I have been interacting with her as a male-identified suit for some years now and as a female-identified suit for about a month, and it would seem a little obvious if the transition from listen-to-male-ID and ignore-female-ID were quite such a tripswitch.
 
 
Ganesh
10:53 / 18.04.06
It's a good point, and I expect Ganesh would like to have it brought to his attention, as I would assume he didn't mean to consciously claim a woman's suggestion as his own.

If you reread the posts linked, you'll see that it's actually Haus who makes the suggestion that was previously made by a female-identified poster. I'm the one who says, "that suggestion's been made further upthread" and agree that it sounds like a good idea. Haus then proposed it as a moderator action, and it went through.

I don't think anyone consciously claimed another's suggestion for their own here, least of all myself.
 
 
Cat Chant
10:53 / 18.04.06
I expect Ganesh would like to have it brought to his attention

Minor point, miss wonderstarr, but it was actually Ganesh who pointed out (to Haus, whose post is the second linked to above) that the suggestion for a name change had already been made 'upthread' (the first post/s linked above).
 
 
Ganesh
10:54 / 18.04.06
Isn't this me, rather than Ganesh?

Beat me to it, O Right Hemisphere.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
10:57 / 18.04.06
Gosh, things happen fast around here. Yes, the observations above are correct, though Mordant Carnival also comes into the sequence of events. Was I really here years as a male ID? I wonder when I'll feel not-new!
 
 
Cat Chant
11:05 / 18.04.06
Eek! Lots of cross-posting.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:08 / 18.04.06
You underwent your tranformation pretty much on the cusp of your second birthday, Miss W. Fair point about Mordant Carnival, but I think I'm even less likely to ignore her, being as she is a valued friend on and off the board, and I assure you that I was perfectly aware both of your and her comments when I made mine, although quite possibly I should have credited the prior work on the issues with the name. I think the difference is simply that one person who thought alike was a moderator. This may, of course, be me invisibilising my own prejudice, but I think the case would be stronger if I had waited for a male-IDing poster to propose the change, then acted on that suggestion, or if a female-IDing poster had asked that the name not be changed and I and the other moderators ahd ignored it.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
11:13 / 18.04.06
It's okay with me - though these things are interesting and worthwhile to consider, I don't think this warrants me starting a Policy thread on "Haus: His Crimes".
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:21 / 18.04.06
That's fine - am464 has raised a valid concern, and whether I believe that it relates to this instance (I don't, but then possibly I wouldn't), it reminds us to keep an eye on whether it happens elsewhere.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:37 / 29.04.06
A series of blunders by police allowed a man to kill his pregnant ex-girlfriend less than a week after she reported that he had attacked and threatened to kill her.

The Guardian article continues: "Police had two chances to arrest Hugo Quintas before he cut Hayley Richards' throat and on one occasion officers were directed to help a dog in a locked car rather than pick him up."

Words fucking fail me.
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
22:09 / 13.06.06
Bump.

I have a small concern regarding myself right now, and figured this was the best place to raise it and ask for input. Over in the Ann Coulter thread I made the following comment:

God, she's such a bitch. Who the fuck buys her psychotic books, anyway? I mean seriously, I can generally wrap my head around conservative thinking and force myself to understand how they see the world. But Ann Coulter is simply bat shit insane, there's no two-ways about it. She's crazier than Alan Keyes, for fuck's sake!

To which, in part at least, Mordant replied:

Look, I know it's Coulter, but can we have a bit less of the 'bitch' and the mental-health-issues-as-slurs? Cheers.

The more I think about it, the more I feel she was justified with this statement, and I apologized immediately upon seeing it (though, I’m not personally sure I apologized… I don’t know, ‘adamantly’ enough). However, I’m at a loss for how to react “better” to this type of thing. The use of the term “bitch”, for example, was in no way meant as an affront against women, but as a statement of Ann Coulter’s character.

“Bitch” was a way of referring to her as a manipulative, lying bigot whose attitudes towards social injustice are practically medieval, among other things. Similarly, “psychotic”, “crazy”, and “bat shit insane” were in no way an attack upon mental illness, but terms expressing my shock and disbelief of her attitudes and a total inability to comprehend how she thinks.

I suppose what I’m really asking is something like “How can I, as an individual, better express myself without misrepresenting my thoughts as bigoted?” In this example, for instance, I can’t think of a better word for Ms. Coulter than simply “bitch”. It really sums up my feelings for her rather well. But at the same time I realize the inherent sexism within the term. And although I may refer to men as “bitchy”, on occasion, that does not in any way undermine the sexism within the word. If anything, it enhances it, by comparing them to the traditional understood concept of a “bitchy women”.

Clearly, the “easiest” solution is to simply watch myself and make sure I refrain from using language such as this that could be perceived as bigoted in anyway. But I’m worried that this is simply using a band-aid where stitches are needed. Does using a word like “bitch” so easily suggest an inner sexist attitude? I’m kind of afraid it does. If so, how can I improve this semi-conscious attitude?

Help me, Barbelith, you’re my only hope…
 
 
Ganesh
23:03 / 13.06.06
Not sure this is the right place to discuss psychiatric-illness-terms-as-pejorative-descriptors, but you've brought it up here so I want to specifically address this point (I'll leave the issues around "bitch" to others).

Similarly, “psychotic”, “crazy”, and “bat shit insane” were in no way an attack upon mental illness, but terms expressing my shock and disbelief of her attitudes and a total inability to comprehend how she thinks.

The difficulty here is that, whether or not you intended to attack mental illness (or even people suffering from mental illness), these terms are used to 'other' people with psychiatric disorders. The fact that you are shocked, disbelieving and uncomprehending doesn't necessarily justify your use of these terms or lessen their impact. Imagine you're in a pub or cafe, talking to a group of people some of whom you know and some of whom you don't. It's highly likely that some of those individuals will have suffered from mental illness at some point in their lives; it's generally fairly taboo to disclose this (some diagnoses more than others), and the fact that someone's freely dispensing terms like "psychotic" and "bat shit insane" to indicate his revulsion rather reinforces that taboo. An analogy: I'm with a colleague I don't know that well and he says something's "gay" meaning he thinks it's pathetic; I feel just that li-i-ittle bit less like being honest about my own sexuality around him.

I'll allow that there's plenty of lay usage of "crazy" and "insane" - and these are fairly general descriptors not typically in clinical usage - so the impact of these terms is probably much diluted. I still think they need to be used advisedly, but wouldn't get all fingerwaggy with you over them. "Psychotic", however, is different, because it has a specific clinical meaning (denoting a particular class of severe psychiatric disorders including bipolar affective disorder and the schizophrenias) and is in common currency among mental health professionals. When used in a lay context, it's usually either conflated with (the quite different term) "psychopathic" in the description of murderers, rapists, etc. or used as a general synonym for "insane", "crazy", etc. Both are unhelpful.

So... I'd suggest trying to keep in mind the possibility that the person you're talking to may have been psychiatrically unwell, possibly even psychotic.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:33 / 13.06.06
Does using a word like “bitch” so easily suggest an inner sexist attitude? I’m kind of afraid it does.

I don't think it necessarily suggests sexism in an individual because the words are so common as to almost assume a higher meaning. The problem is that bitch is a specifically gendered societal term. I've always regarded bitch and bastard as two sides of a coin. It's very easy to let them slip out when you're ranting because there's an assumption that they are a descriptor- this woman is a bad person, this man is a bad person. They're bound to come out occasionally in anger but they stop coming out the more you catch yourself using them, so I think everytime you use them recall the fact that you're using a word that's related to gender and think about why the problem isn't related to the gender of the person you're referring to.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:38 / 13.06.06
I think this is especially difficult with Ann Coulter because she generalises women while existing as female. Thus the temptation to call her a bitch simply to relate her to the people she criticises is ever present.
 
 
Ticker
23:49 / 13.06.06
Spyder, if it helps at all there are a lot of great words to express revulsion and frustration with people. Everyone will be impressed with your imaginative choice of venom.
You could make some up or use it as an excuse to browse the dictionary.

My social group tends to swear about the 'asshats' and 'chowdah-heads'. My current fav is 'dullard'.
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
16:54 / 15.06.06
I do rather like the word “venom”, actually.

As a psychiatrist, Ganesh (among your many other talents), you opinions are very helpful, and you’ve given me some food for thought. I’m wondering about the idea of another 101 thread for mental conditions, but this is clearly not the place to really jump into anything like that. But thanks for your thoughts.

I've always regarded bitch and bastard as two sides of a coin.

I think a lot of people would agree with you, Anna, myself generally included. This itself is curious, considering the two words have very different origins and literal meanings. I don’t know, there’s something there, I’m just too tired to really go in dept about it right now.

You have me wondering though. Thought experiment: Let’s say a colleague of mine at work is being rather irritating and I’m already in a mood because my best friend’s in the hospital or something, and I say to no one in particular “That man is intolerable!”. This isn’t really an attack upon his gender so much as adding defining characteristic of the fictitious colleague to a statement of opinion. How is this different from saying “He is such a bastard!”? The intent is much the same, but does the rewording change the connotation? Or was the connotation there from the beginning? And does the situation change if the fictional individual is female rather male? Should it?
 
 
Ticker
17:04 / 15.06.06
Spyder,

I'd say words have power, which is part due to their historical use.

The use of gay has been addressed but did you know queer is also one of these iffy sometimes derogatory sometimes not terms? Depends on who is saying it and how.

Bastard and bitch both have history. The issue of being born out of wedlock was so severe for many generations that it still carries the stigma of being an outsider, bad from birth even conception. It is applicable to both sexes.
Bitch refers to a female dog, and so carries the dehumanizing and often sexually derogatory message that the person so designated is of low importance and bestial nature.

If you choose to insult someone or vent spleen it is best to do so with insight.

Calling a liar a two faced unscrupulous traitor is far more satisfying than bitch anyway.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
17:10 / 15.06.06
I've always favoured "quisling," myself.
 
  

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