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Feminism 101

 
  

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iconoplast
14:13 / 07.03.06
Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest we compile a list of verboten words. I thought we'd come up with some guidelines and add them to the wiki, then hope that the mods 'adopt' these guidelines when they decide how to react to stuff.

Since, AFAIK, that's all we can do, right (modify the Wiki)? Short of becoming moderators, is there any other way to affect a change?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
14:33 / 07.03.06
I think we can effect a change in part by thinking about our own use of language, and how we respond to others' use of language... this thread has certainly encouraged me to think in that way, and I feel that's positive on an individual level. The community is, to state the obvious, made up of individuals, so if everyone reading this thread was inspired or guided to reflect in such a way, then the community would also change.
 
 
alas
15:10 / 07.03.06
btw, if anyone's still reading this thread and interested, I have started a thread in Books on Woolf's A Room Of One's Own.

Even if you don't have time to read the book, I've offered a summary of the key points of her argument, as I see it, and my own reasons for thinking the book should be "required reading." I'm happy to entertain responses from people who admit they haven't read the book, although I will be silently clucking my tongue at you...(heh heh)
 
 
Cat Chant
15:12 / 07.03.06
Something about the last page of this thread feels very hopeful to me (hello, incidentally, to those of you who don't know me; I'm an ex-regular-poster, now sometime lurker, and I haven't engaged fully with the board lately which is why I'm staying out of this discussion in general). It looks like an argument about the use of language which is sometimes heated and emotional, but* which is also, in the main, respectful and characterized by people taking each other's positions seriously. It looks like an argument of the same sort that we have had in the past about racist, homophobic or anti-Semitic language. Not that the way we deal with those things is always perfect, but that one of the things that was being expressed in this thread was that misogyny was being taken less seriously than other forms of unacceptable speech. So that gives me a good feeling, to see a serious, respectful engagement with some specific examples of arguably-misogynistic language (by which I mean examples over which there is some disagreement within the board).

I don't know. Usually I think that 'raising awareness' is kind of pointless, but in this case I feel much more hopeful - maybe because my awareness has been raised, too. Hmm.

*Not sure about the 'but' here - it's not that I think 'emotional' and 'respectful' are mutually exclusive.
 
 
Chiropteran
15:15 / 07.03.06
(Deva! Glad you're back. )
 
 
Char Aina
20:10 / 07.03.06
seconded.
get back!
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:41 / 07.03.06
3rded.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
21:56 / 07.03.06
She came. She saw. She conversed.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:33 / 07.03.06
Worth noting that we have also consistently failed to address racism, sexism and homophobia in a consistent way. However, what we are hopefully doing here is helping to normalise a situation in which female-identifying posters can raise the possibility that the reactions they are getting are related to that identification as female, without assuming that this will be dismissed out of hand. On the other hand (the one that is not dismissing things out of itself, I guess), I guess we need to create a balance of trust, sort of thing - where the male-identifying posters know that they have to take seriously the suggestion that they are acting in a "common-sense" way, and the female-identifying posters apply the same weight to the suggestion...
 
 
*
00:15 / 08.03.06
And where male-identifying posters are encouraged to take on board the possibility that in some cases, that common-sense way of doing and seeing might be itself a problem— without that necessarily meaning that we (the male-identifying posters) ourselves are to blame. Perhaps this will ease the tendency of male posters to feel we are being treated unfairly when we are challenged on something which we feel is perfectly normal behaviour.
 
 
ShadowSax
18:21 / 08.03.06
this was my quote:


so what if i WAS a misogynist! does that mean i shouldnt be allowed to raise my kids?


that was me. ME.

i just want to explain that, to put that in context...

the point is, people were using their interpretation of me and the fathers rights movement in general as a reason for us as a group or even us as individuals to be decided against in family court, specifically regarding custody, as in "it's no wonder with attitudes like yours that courts decide against you." (i'm paraphrasing.)

my response to that was simply that one's views of gender roles should have nothing to do with a court's decision to award custody one way or another, except to the extent that it specifically and legally affects the children. doing otherwise would be akin to siding with the father because the mother believes that mothers shouldnt work outside the home.

i wasnt saying "I'M A MISOGYNIST AND THEREFORE I'M A GREAT DAD." or even justifying misogyny as a valuable trait.

we can villify misogyny or we can villify behaviors such as abuse or violence against women that come (sometimes) from misogyny. one has less control over one's deeply-rooted attitudes than over their behavior. so it might be more valuable in a social context to criticize behavior rather than attitude because attitude is affected by so many things, not least of which are the person's manner of expressing an attitude, which can be misinterpreted, as well as the audience's interpretations of those expressions, which can be flawed.

i'll get back to reading the rest of the thread now.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
09:35 / 10.03.06
Wow, you threadkiller you.

So, if the last few days are any guide, it'll be interesting to see whether any changes have been made to the way Barbelith works or whether it now becomes a tussle between the locker-room guys and the new men for the soul of the board.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:46 / 10.03.06
Yeah.

This thread, and the associated spin-off debate elsewhere, has been incredibly valuable for me personally. It's made me realise how much stuff I just let slide--worse, how much I've kind of bought into and internalised over the years. It's depressing to note that the presence of this debate on the board has actually made it a less comfortable place for some regular female posters, who've gone on hiatus.
 
 
The Falcon
11:58 / 10.03.06
Who's on hiatus?
 
 
Cat Chant
12:06 / 10.03.06
Nina, I gather (don't know who else, if anyone).
 
 
Evil Scientist
12:39 / 10.03.06
I hadn't realised that she'd taken a break.

Nina, if you're lurking, thanks for starting this thread. Thanks also for all the work you do for the board.
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
15:58 / 10.03.06
I second that, Evil Scientist. I'm partly glad things have slowed down on this thread (Half the time someone said something I wanted to respond to, six other people had already said it) but now that things have calmed down I wonder what in the way of permanent changes will come of this. I have this fear that in 6 months time most of all this talk will have been forgotten.

We need to be sure that that doesn't happen.

And maybe I'm just being paranoid, but I'm really a bit worried about that happening. Barbelith has had a rough couple of months, and I think it would be a real shame if we didn't learn from all this. I know there's a lot of debate over "educating members" when it comes to acceptance and everyone getting along. But if we don't treat everyone- everyone- with equality and acceptance then I think we've made a big mistake.

Anyway, that's my two cents, and I'm probably rambling. Nina, I wish you well and hope you come back soon.
 
 
Shrug
16:43 / 10.03.06
Oh, I thought Nina was just bowing out of applications for a while.
 
 
pointless & uncalled for
17:02 / 10.03.06
She is, for the given reason that she's not interacting with the board much at the moment.

Propositionally speaking it would appear that this discussion has reached the "we've talked about it, now let's fuck" stage. Will there be more action and if so what should the dirty screaming masses be doing right about now.
 
 
Char Aina
19:08 / 10.03.06
i reckon a good place to start is with the follow-up.

polite PMs to posters with voiced concerns to see how they feel you could best help address them, say.
some thinking on useful topics of discussion that, while aware of this one, move on from it.

i'm trying to figure out a way to word a thread to get input on the mechanics of the offense caused by some words, for example. i still use some of the less acceptable terms often labelled as misogynist and see this as the best next avenue for investigation.




i say figure out which bit of the recent conversations gave you the biggest chills/thrills/therapy bills and try to think of a way to delve deeper.


(
i dont have much board time at the moment, so you should all feel free to steal my basic idea if you feel you can run with it.
you'll have at least one reader.
)
 
 
Daemon est Deus Inversus
00:42 / 14.03.06
I made a stupid post here in "Conversation." I'd just finished a much longer post in a more 'serious' area of Barbelith on reproductive rights (basically a lawyer's perspective that we were 5-4 now; Roberts is rational; and that if Stevens died before 2009 there'd be major restrictions against powerless people (people who couldn't pay cash, couldn't sue insurance carriers, teens) but NOT reversal. Having spend a lot of time on that (the thread I think was titled 'Judge Roberts, etc."), I made a stupid post here. Anyway, we wouldn't be having this discussion if it weren't for William O. Douglas (whom I am just nominating- please vote and help canvass- as the Patron Judge of Barbelith) and "Griswold".
 
 
alas
01:15 / 14.03.06
I'm actually not exactly sure what you're saying, Daemon, although I think you're referring to post 559003 of this thread, "Feminism 101," which, despite being in Conversation, you have apparently now realized is a pretty serious thread. But, serious or funny, your joke was, well, hideous. I realize that you recognize it as "stupid" but...

Frankly, I'm still not sure what you're saying: because you were serious elsewhere on the topic of the US Supreme Court's stance on reproductive rights, it's understandable that you would need to, I don't know, let off some steam? by making a joke about gang rape in the middle of a discussion about feminism....?

Are we supposed to just say: oh well, boys will be boys?

As I said, and you said, OK: so you're apparently aware that it was "stupid," ok, but... then you immediately go on to tell me that we women owe everything--"wouldn't be having this discussion"--if it weren't for a court case (decided by an all male jury) and some male judge you like? And we should just be glad that Roberts is "rational"?

("Rational" is a suitcase of a term that seems to have arrived at this particular terminal stuffed with all sorts of assumptions. You might read about some of the baggage it carries in this Headshop thread and also this one, in Policy. I'm not supposed to say "unpack," because it's become jargony, but would you please open up this term in the presence of official Barbelith TSA personnel, and under the x-ray of our analysis, before this sentence explodes, or I do?)
 
 
HCE
01:21 / 14.03.06
I don't believe you're a lawyer.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
06:54 / 14.03.06
I don't believe you're a human.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:13 / 14.03.06
And, yeah, seconding the call for a little 'splaining, if you don't mind. I missed the joke, which is a great shame as it sounds just hilaaaaarious, but I'd like to see you elaborate a little on the above post.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:13 / 14.03.06
"Furthermore, your honour, I contend that... MONKEY BOLLOCKS! Sorry, I just couldn't resist. But I can intelligently discuss Roe, Griswold, ARSE FLAPS! Ooops, there I go agains..."
 
 
penitentvandal
07:23 / 14.03.06
The Tourettes Syndrome Lawyer...Internet cartoon fame beckons. For thirty seconds Friday lunchtime...

Oh, and,

Barbelith has had a rough couple of months

indeed, but what we all want to know is, is it dying?
 
 
penitentvandal
07:24 / 14.03.06
Incidentally, I don't believe there is a Judge Griswold. Think on it, a Judge who spends all his time going on family vacations with hi-lair-ious consequences?

Dredd would never stand for it.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:08 / 18.03.06
I hemmed and hawed a lot about whether to post this, because even after all this time it's hard to write and I'm going to feel crappy for a while after I write it. I also know that as soon as the text appears on the screen people who are hostile to me, or to feminism, or to women in general, are going to get to work minimising it, and that's hard to know when you're actually doing yourself a certain amount of damage to put it out there. But anyway. I really feel the need to take this out of the realms of the theoretical, which is where I think it is for a lot of people reading this. I want people to understand that we're not just pulling stuff out of our arses here, that misogyny is very real, very active, and has real and serious consequenses.

Between the ages of 15 and 17, I attended 6th-form college. I started a year early; at that time in my life I was still quite an ambitious person. Throughout the entire time I attended that institution, I was continually sexually harrassed. Let me be very clear as to what I mean by that. I'm not talking about wolf-whistles or "hello, darlin'" from the lads at the gate. I'm not even just talking about guys yelling "suck my dick," although I heard plenty of that too. I'm talking about daily threats of violence including sexual violence. I think it's fair to say that during term-time I was threated with rape at least once every day. The people harrassing me weren't just teenaged boys, they were also adults in their early 20s.

The harrasment would start at the bus stop and continue for pretty much the entire hour it took to get to tech. I'd get a bit of a breather once I got to the lab. Most of the blokes on my course were all right (although as one of only 3 girls in my year I learned to put up with lots of discussions of women's bodies, sexually explicit songs and jokes, ect. That stuff didn't really bother me after a while). The harrassment would kick off again when I stepped out of the building, when I'd have to run a kind of gauntlet to get to the cafe. I was pretty much safe from the bullshit until I had to get the bus home, when it would start all over again. I started wearing a Walkman pretty much continuously to shut out the threats and insults.

I would also say that I was subjected to homophobic abuse. I feel awkward saying that because I'm not actually gay, but people thought I was or affected to think so and I came in for a certain amount of stick for it. This would range from mild annoyances, like a guy sitting down near me in the cafe and slowly reciting words beginning with L until he got to lemon (slang for lesbian) at which point he and his mates would all crack up, to stuff about cutting up lemons, cutting up dykes, and 'jokes' about lesbians.

I was never actually physically hurt, although I did get shoved and bumped into a lot harder than was strictly necessary. I learned not to sit in an aisle seat in the refrectory if I could help it because people would contrive to hit me with heavy sports bags, and my coat aquired some mysterious slashes on the bus one night. Even so, I was scared most of the time. This affected me physically; already a migrane sufferer, my condition got a lot worse and required stronger medication, and I began throwing up most mornings. I developed an eating disorder; by the end of the second year, I would go for weeks eating nothing all day except one stick of gum, ritually broken into 3 pieces, and three cups of tea. I became obsessed with making myself as unsexy as possible; I'd wear layers and layers of clothing, even in the summer. Long skirts, loose baggy jeans. At 16, I was diagnosed with clinical depression.

In all that time, nobody was ever disciplined for the harrasment. The worst offender was merely 'talked to', which actually made matters worse. It was tolerated, shrugged off as normal or okay. I didn't do anything to provoke these guys--I didn't know them, never spoke to them, apart from the time I broke down in tears and screamed at them to leave me alone.

Anyhow. I could have walked away, I suppose, but I stuck to my guns and finished the course. Not sure it was really worth it. Between the blackouts, the migranes, the fact that I wasn't eating much and was puking with terror every morning, I underperformed academically. I did okay but I did not do well enough to get into university. From being the kid who worked so hard to get into tech a year early, I drifted into unemployment followed by a succession of crappy minimum wage jobs. I've never really freed myself from the depression, and I still relapse into the ED sometimes (although that's mostly under control). There was other stuff going on in my life that contributed to all this, but I kind of feel that I'd have done a lot better if it wasn't for that bloody tech.

The experience I've described above is by no means the only, or even the worst, experience of misogyny, sexism, or abuse in my life. I've picked this one out of the mess because it's relatively clear cut and hard to excuse or dismiss.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
08:17 / 18.03.06
Would you mind giving us some idea of when and where this was MC? Don't be too specific but I'm just appalled, especially that your teaching institution didn't give you any support in dealing with these vile little shits.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:20 / 18.03.06
This was in Wales, early 90s.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
08:20 / 18.03.06
I'm very sorry to hear that, Carnival. It surprises me that these men would have such a terrible problem with you and express it so viciously -- I don't know if your experience was unusual or exceptional for a sixth-form college -- but I'm certainly sorry you had to experience it.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:34 / 18.03.06
It surprises me that these men would have such a terrible problem with you and express it so viciously

We-l-l-l--you know in high school there's this one kid who's so weird, even Goths and that think ze's weird? I was that kid. Not on purpose, it just sort of happened.

I don't know if your experience was unusual or exceptional for a sixth-form college

It was an unusually shit college.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
08:46 / 18.03.06
Did the other women suffer the same treatment? There's no doubting that someone has real problems with women if they come out with threats of sexual violence, but I wonder if these shits were latching onto whatever they could find to attack you (here, gender and supposed sexuality). If you'd been a guy and a misfit, perceived as weird, would they have persecuted you in a similar way but using slightly different weapons (povvo, freak, queer, paedo, whatever worked and hurt and got a laugh).
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:52 / 18.03.06
They got some of it, but not to the same degree, I don't think. Some of what was happening to me was sort of overspill from the harrassment my entire family was getting (misfits, English, home-educators, small Welsh village...)
 
  

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