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Feminism 101

 
  

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Olulabelle
23:45 / 05.03.06
Papers, it does make sense. Lots.

Ganesh, I think you're right, it might benefit the board to have a discussion about whether 'Barberoyalty' is afforded lee-way where others may not be.

It would be good if we could do this without the usual resulting argument (I think I have read a thread where someone tried to bring the subject up before, and which degenrated into horridness but I am not sure).

However, particularly as you have direct experience of a potential difference of reaction to you as 'Ganesha' (something I didn't know), it might be ideally placed now. Good idea.
 
 
Chiropteran
23:47 / 05.03.06
[A] male poster made a remark about that and as a result of that discussion subsequently got barbequoted even though the post used a word that I consider to be quite misogynistic.

Which barbequote was that? Is it still there?
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
23:52 / 05.03.06
Alex's Grams: I don't know if *anger* in itself ever plays all that well on teh boad though, whoever's responsible. Biting satire, cruel wit, etc, seem to turn out OK

But, see, I'm all for biting satire. It's the cruelty implied in the cruel wit that bothers me. I suppose "angry" is a poor choice of words. I think I mean "passionate."

Lula: However, particularly as you have direct experience of a potential difference of reaction to you as 'Ganesha' (something I didn't know), it might be ideally placed now. Good idea.

I don't think I ever thought Good Gracious Meme was male and I'm not exactly sure how Mordant identifies - ze has always struck me as being a bit more in the middle, posting-style-wise. I don't think I ever thought Ganesh was female, even with the "a," although I did have a dream about the actual elephant god once, who turned out to be a little Indian girl who liked to paint herself blue...
 
 
Olulabelle
23:54 / 05.03.06
I know you didn't but some posters have.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
00:04 / 06.03.06
I know, just sayin'.

Actually, I think it was the words "Good Gracious" that made picture GGM as a little white-haired lady, probably with a large mallet and frying pan held aloft, not unlike Thor...
 
 
Shrug
00:05 / 06.03.06
I mean, I got angry in the men's thread and then a male poster made a remark about that and as a result of that discussion subsequently got barbequoted even though the post used a word that I consider to be quite misogynistic.

FWIW I can't see any attatchment of the word "carp" to misogyny. And if there is one (an attatchment) I apologise. As I seem to be generally regarded as misinformed someone please explain?
Nor was I throwing my oar in on either side of the argument, I barbequoted it as a what I think to be a funny example of snark, rather than in anyway trying to validate any ideology. Context was provided for well.. context of the events leading up to said snark (for anyone that was interested). The conversation in of itself was, in my view, abstracted from the Male Response Thread as in it wasn't about the issues discussed therein but more about the ways with which they were being discussed.
Btw: is that meant to link to my profile?
 
 
Sekhmet
00:15 / 06.03.06
I always thought GGM was male. OTOH I was startled to find out that someone else - Meludreen, I think? - was male. I honestly don't know what I based those assumptions on. The sound of the ficsuit names? Posting style? Apparent IQ? Sense of humor? How much their writing had in common with my own mode of thought? No clue.

It occurs to me now, though, that on the occasions that another poster took me for male or treated me as neuter ("ze" and so on) I actually felt flattered. Flattered, specifically, to not be treated as female. The engagement seemed more complete, somehow. I felt more authoritative, and as if I was actually being listened to and being treated as an intelligent and worthwhile contributor.

The alternative being, I suppose, being treated as some ignorant girl who could safely be ignored or discounted.

And as someone who has never really (consciously) noticed or bothered about misogyny on the board, this (unconscious) perception on my own part has been troubling and confusing me.

I'm looking around at this mess, all this discussion and disagreement, and wondering what the hell is wrong with my perception of the board. I think Tabitha Tickletooth hit on something over in the Women's thread in Policy - there's an element of denial. If you don't want to see it, you won't. And I don't want to think that the population of Barbelith - who are, by and large, lovely and intelligent people who I would quite like to meet over a pint someday - would think less of me or my ideas because of my gender. However, it's becoming evident, at least to me, that that may well be the case.

Not only that, but I'm noticing more of this sort of thing in meatspace as well. Far more, in fact, than I ever have on Barbelith. Far far more. Every day.

Fuck me if I'm not starting to get pissed off about it.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
00:23 / 06.03.06
Sekhmet: Not only that, but I'm noticing more of this sort of thing in meatspace as well. Far more, in fact, than I ever have on Barbelith. Far far more. Every day.

I notice it on an almost daily basis, and it disturbs me when it's women doing it - and not just misogyny, but also misandry...well, I suppose the best description would be "sexism" because I'm not sure how much it is hatred or simply people patting me on the head for being a silly boy or whatever. I think I just feel offended because so many people still subscribe to very out of date stereotypes and have to regurgitate them - ie, men can't be counted on to make a decisive statement (when really I wasn't clear on the policy in question and wanted to check) or women can't park properly. That kind of thing. It bothers me because people aren't even being original in their sexism, and they laugh about it as if it's just fact, you know. As if sexual equality means population-wise and liberation was a kind of push-up bra...

Geez, I'm posting a lot today. I should shut up.
 
 
*
00:31 / 06.03.06
I keep thinking of Meludreen as female, because of -een being a common feminine ending in Gaelic. It's colored my perceptions of his writing— I remember being surprised on a couple of occasions by his line of argument or posting style or adoption of a certain stance, but I can't for the life of me remember what I expected of him instead. I remember when he first showed up I was surprised that he was so well-informed about many and sundry things, but I really think this had more to do with my opinion of new posters than my opinion of women. (I'm willing to be schooled, though, if I'm wrong.) When I am reading his posts and my perception of him shifts because I suddenly remember he's male-identified, what happens is that posts which seemed "warmer" and "more sympathetic" to me before suddenly seem a bit less so. I'll bet this indicates a problem.
 
 
Sekhmet
00:50 / 06.03.06
id entity - yes, exactly. I remember when Meludreen first started posting my reaction was, "Oh, hurrah! She's smart and funny and well-spoken - it's always good to have more bright women around." I was actually rather disappointed to find out ze was a he.

Which line of thought really ought to have clued me in, I suppose. I've always felt a sort of identification, a closeness, with the other female-id'd posters because we are a minority, or at least I perceive it that way. I've always felt a vicarious sense of pride when a female poster made an especially good argument or did something lovely, and vicarious shame when one does something rude or ill-conceived. Is that sexist? I suppose it is, but I think that what I was really reacting to was the way I thought the board at large would view "women members" as a result - as if the actions of one female-id'd poster would reflect on all of "us".
 
 
Evil Scientist
09:15 / 06.03.06
I am currently keeping abreast of the Woman-Friendly Barbelith thread, but IMO it's not really appropriate for me to post in there (or rather, there are plenty of people making good points and it doesn't need another m-i poster on there for the hell of it).

Regarding names. As I said waaaaaay back in this thread, I'm still unaware of the gender of the vast majority of people on the site. I don't think I'm wrong in assuming that most people on here pick names that, for want of a better term, sound cool. But I think I do tend to assume male-gender for non-identified posters (not all though, I have no idea about SDV's gender and knowledge thereof would, I'd like to think, make no difference to our "debates").

Is my assumption of "male until shown otherwise" a mysogynistic attitude (I genuinely would like to know)? I don't think I treat people on here any different if I know their gender. There are more male-identifying posters on here than any other gender, so it's most likely a non-identified poster is male.

How would one go about completely disengaging the concept of gender? I'm not personally sure it would be a good idea anyway, our gender is part of our overall identities (memeplexes, whatever) and I don't feel we should ignore it utterly. But presumably a message board should be the easiest place in the world to do it.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
09:29 / 06.03.06
Is my assumption of "male until shown otherwise" a mysogynistic attitude (I genuinely would like to know)?
It's probably just a default assumption based on the numbers.

I wonder about my own assumptions when I think someone is a woman. I'm always confusing people's gender on Barbelith, but it's kind of vague and I don't think it's a specific statement that a poster says that makes me think they're female.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:12 / 06.03.06
Nina's made it perfectly clear that she believes my comments are motivated by personal dislike

Possibly but frankly I'm genuinely concerned by your ability to centre things on me. A while ago you decided to use me as the sole example of anti-americanism on barbelith and now you have implied that GGM was talking about me specifically rather than citing me as an example in a very clear post in the woman-friendly thread. Rather than provide an example of a f-i poster on this board who is treated differently to GGM's example you've chosen to personalise this issue and back out of the thread entirely. You've hardly laid my cynicism with regard to your motivation to rest here, in a loose sense you've confirmed it.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
11:42 / 06.03.06
1) I took the anti-Americanism stuff to its own P&H thread as it was requested by a Switchboard moderator.

2) My entire point here has been that taking responses to a single female poster and making them out to be indicative of the treatment of *all* female posters doesn't work, because there's always a very good chance that there are issues besides gender informing those responses. This point was understood by Ganesh. Why have I focused on you here? Because GGM used the behaviour towards you as her example - I can't say that I believe it's shaky ground to argue from unless I then take that example and use it within the explanation of my thinking. I'm on a lose/lose with this one, clearly - if I'd have made it non-specific I'd have been dragged over the coals for not rooting my comments in anything solid, a la Duncan with Lula in the Barbannoy thread yesterday.

3) Your belief that I'm somehow chasing you around, waiting for you to slip up so that I can stick the boot in, is utterly absurd. If the only way I can avoid it in future is by never again responding to your posts or mentioning or quoting you in my own then I suppose that's going to have to be the way it is. A shame, but I'm not prepared to dance this merry dance and become the Haus to your Dudley.
 
 
The Falcon
14:30 / 06.03.06
I really wasn't 'dragging [Lula] over the coals', though she appears to be having a hard time getting over it.

'Carp' is misogynist language? I'd really like this to be a test case, please. See, I think I've made a not invalid point, but obviously if I have been - however unconsciously - later on using misogynist language, then that must somewhat undercut it, as there would be something evidently wrong with me.

Of course, if I haven't... well, I'd suggest that's not the first time in this thread that Lula's attempted to use gender issues to colour a debate where they don't particularly belong.

You see the problem, I'm sure.
 
 
Quantum
14:41 / 06.03.06
I'm still unaware of the gender of the vast majority of people on the site.

Fuck, me too, often after meeting them IRL several times.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
14:55 / 06.03.06
I often have difficulty remembering who people were several suits ago (it's news to me that DPC was Rosa for example, though I don't think I ever talked much to hir then) which is possibly why this thread and the Policy one have been so interesting to me, wrt female-identified posters opinions on Barbelith.

I wish there was some easy painless way to take a poll of the regular posters and what gender they identify as, so we can look at answering question three in the summary.
 
 
Dead Megatron
18:08 / 06.03.06
I got the genders of the barbelithian wrong so many times, I just decided to picture you all as fleshless A.I.s. It helps
 
 
*
18:21 / 06.03.06
Duncan, "carp" can be misogynist language. It's much more frequently directed at women than men. We get angry, get proactive, make an issue. Women complain, whine, "carp." In fact, "carping" almost needs a "woman" after it. If you say a man is "carping," in many people's ears it sounds like you're accusing him of "womanish" behavior. I didn't think you intended that association, but I don't think it's at all farfetched for someone to see it there as a subtext of which you were unaware. In fact, I thought of it myself, but dismissed it as perhaps being a little trigger-happy.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
19:27 / 06.03.06
It's much more frequently directed at women than men. We get angry, get proactive, make an issue. Women complain, whine, "carp." In fact, "carping" almost needs a "woman" after it. If you say a man is "carping," in many people's ears it sounds like you're accusing him of "womanish" behavior

Sorry to swing in late to this freight-train of a thread and to hook up on this specific example, but it really surprises, even baffles me. Is it pedantic of me to ask you for any kind of back-up, stats or secondary support about "carp" being "much more frequently" directed at women? The word just makes me think of fish. "Hysterical", "nag", yes I'd agree are more often associated pejoratively with women, and so could be viewed as perpetuating stereotypes about a supposed female lack of rationality, inability to debate, tendency to repeat. Whether they indicate a hatred of women, as "misogyny" indicates, I would say was open to debate: others would not. But I've never come across "carp" in that way. "Hysterical" is tied up with retro ideas about the womb -- "nag" is a familiar, derogatory term for a type of woman. "Carp", though? How widespread does a sexist connotation have to be before someone can be chastised for using the word? If Barbeloid B announces that "complain" is generally associated with women rather than men, and so Barbeloid A, telling a female-identifying poster she's "complaining", is being misogynistic, should Barbeloid A immediately step down with an apology and thanks for the education, or is s/he entitled to ask for evidence?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
19:32 / 06.03.06
In fact, my take on the distinction you draw --

We get angry, get proactive, make an issue. Women complain, whine, "carp."

-- would be "I get proactive, make an issue; you [my opponent in the discussion] complain, whine and carp." It's a question of putting a positive or negative spin on the same activity. I don't associate those with gender; I would see it as a (kind of weak and obvious) argument-strategy that seeks to cast one's own behaviour as assertive, and the same behaviour on the part of an antagonist as petty. I would say the distinction tries to link "me" more with mature consideration and "you" more with immature childishness, if anything. (I accept that a sexist view of men and women could quite likely try to position men in the former role, women in the latter... but still, I am interested to know what precedent there is for "carp".)
 
 
Aertho
19:43 / 06.03.06
At what point can we own all of our stereotypes? If I want to be a "carping woman", so be it. And if Nina wants to be a grumpy old man, who's to stop her? They're all only roles, and I kind of consider them historical. I'm building this argument toward limitations in image and language... I'm not sure I'm going anywhere productive. I'm sure I won't be understood on this, but I'm at work and didn't want to forget that thought. Does anyone get what I'm saying, or am I just pissing people off further?
 
 
Dead Megatron
19:44 / 06.03.06
We get angry, get proactive, make an issue. Women complain, whine, "carp."

You forgot the worse of them all: "bitch". Women get "bitchy". They are "shrews"...

In fact, there's a whole bunch of bad expressions that are directed exclusively to females, while for men, I'm not sure there's even one. None that I can rembember now, at least, except being a [chauvinist] "pig", which, coincidentally, refers exactly to a specific behaviour towards...[dramatic pause]... women!!!

It says a lot when our very language is so biased, ain't it?
 
 
illmatic
20:07 / 06.03.06
Kovacs: I can't offer you any stats, but just to back up what Id Entity is saying I certainly read "carp" in that way. I think of it as a word much more associated with woman than men.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
20:08 / 06.03.06
A shame, but I'm not prepared to dance this merry dance and become the Haus to your Dudley.

In what way or ways would you say that Nina is (behaving) like Dudley/Radiator/I'mRickJones, Randy? Only it strikes me that there are quite a few differences. For example, one of them started a thread that many people (especially female identified posters) said expressed things they had wanted to express or see expressed on Barbelith for a long time, which others have said has opened their eyes to a problem that is widespread on the board but of which they were previously unaware, which has played a major part in making the Conversation a place for more smart and interesting and stimulating discussion than it has been in a long time, that has brought lurkers out and others back to the board. Perhaps my memory is going a bit with age, but I could have sworn that in the days when Dudley used to post here, his posts and threads were of a notably different stripe. A cynic might say that by equating Nina's interaction with you with Dudley's interaction with Haus, you were not only doing her a disservice, but also yourself one - not through the comparison, but through the fact that you chose to make it, and how that might reflect on you in the minds of other people who were not predisposed to believe that you did have any sort of personal axe to grind prior to this point.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
20:10 / 06.03.06
Can I just say how grateful I am that Duncan Falconer is here to tell us where gender issues do and don't belong?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
20:15 / 06.03.06
In what way or ways would you say that Nina is (behaving) like Dudley/Radiator/I'mRickJones, Randy?

In that she claims I'm victimising her. It's pretty simple, really.
 
 
Ganesh
20:17 / 06.03.06
Kovacs: I can't offer you any stats, but just to back up what Id Entity is saying I certainly read "carp" in that way. I think of it as a word much more associated with woman than men.

I'm kinda with Kovacs on this: I've always thought of 'carp' as being gender-neutral - like 'whine' or 'gripe'. I don't think it's straightforwardly misogynistic.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
20:18 / 06.03.06
from ultimate world authority on words, "dictionary.com"

To find fault in a disagreeable way; complain fretfully.

n.
A fretful complaint.


I suppose "fretful" could suggest a stereotypical female response.
 
 
*
20:26 / 06.03.06
Please take any overtones of irritation in this post as relating to the fact that it has once again been eaten by my possessed mouse before I could post it, and not to the fair request for evidence.

In 2004 I was in a linguistic anthropology course in Florida, where we performed the following task from Michael Stubbs' Words and Phrases: Corpus Studies of Lexical Semantics:

(1) Collect your own data on the actual occurrence of words for related speech acts in phrases and texts:

* GOSSIP, NAG, CARP, COMPLAIN, WHINGE
PROMISE, OATH, VOW, PLEDGE, GUARANTEE

Study the words they repeatedly co-occur with, and use this evidence to provide a description of their meanings, including whether they express the speaker's attitude to the language behaviour: approving, neutral or disapproving.


In addition, we examined the most common contexts to determine in what situations it was most commonly applied, if there was a general trend.

I misremembered that Stubbs grouped the word "carp" in with "gossip," which he discusses here:

Does the word GOSSIP imply to you a woman speaker, or can men also gossip? To what extent do such words for speech acts carry (in this case sexist) implications about speakers? In the text collection, I found that the word also occurred frequently in phrases such as

* the mothers stood gossiping in the alleys

* the women gossiped and the men smoked

* a gossiping old woman

Men certainly also gossip (though they may call it something different, such as male bonding!), but if the word is habitually used in such phrases, then this is likely to contribute to a stereotype that gossiping is something which mainly women do. As Cameron (1997: 455) puts it: 'both sexes engage in gossip, [...] but its cultural meaning [...] is undeniably "feminine".'

There are many terms in everyday English for different kinds of language behaviour, and by studying how these terms are used, it is possible to study the logical relations between them, and whether they have positive or negative connotations. TALK is a general word. CHAT is a sub-category of TALK: friendly talk. GOSSIP is a different sub-category: talk in which secrets are revealed and/or details of other people's lives are discussed, with the implication that the topics are trivial. CHATTER is rapid talk. PRATTLE is foolish talk. BABBLE is incoherent talk. CHAT and GOSSIP need more than one person, but babies can BABBLE on their own. GOSSIP, CHATTER and PRATTLE are disapproving terms. PRATTLE is definitely insulting.

Evidence of such meanings comes from the typical phrases in which the words occur.


In our experimentation (which was rather too informal to by itself support my strong assertions above) we found that "carping" was overall less common than "gossiping," but that it had a similarly disproportionate occurrence in feminine contexts as opposed to contexts where it would refer to men. I'll partially retract my assertions, since I can't find the larger studies to support them, and say that in central Florida in 2004, a research project by a group of students suggested that "carping" was as gender-specific as "gossiping," and more strongly negative in context. It was also used by, and in reference to, mainly older people— those between the ages of 60 and 80, at a guess based on what I generally remember of our sample. I would not have made the assertions I made if I wasn't fairly positive there were other, similar studies which I would be able to cite to back it up, but to my embarassment that's not the case. But I find it not unreasonable to assume that other people may have a similar experience of the word, and so reactions to Duncan's use of it may not have been as greatly exaggerated as he evidently felt.

How widespread does a sexist connotation have to be before someone can be chastised for using the word? If Barbeloid B announces that "complain" is generally associated with women rather than men, and so Barbeloid A, telling a female-identifying poster she's "complaining", is being misogynistic, should Barbeloid A immediately step down with an apology and thanks for the education, or is s/he entitled to ask for evidence?

Everyone is entitled to ask for evidence of everything. I'd like to venture that perhaps the targeted poster is also entitled to ask for evidence that her "complaints" are unfounded.
 
 
Ariadne
20:30 / 06.03.06
I have to say I agree with Duncan, Kovacs, Ganesh - I've always thought of 'carp' as a gender-neutral way of complaining.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
20:32 / 06.03.06
Fair enough id... you certainly present evidence, and are honest enough to admit the limitations of that evidence. Maybe I'm just not in a cultural group (age, nationality and so on) that tends to associate "carp" with female complaint.
 
 
Ariadne
20:32 / 06.03.06
Cross posted with the above. Ah well - perhaps I've just not heard it used that way.
 
 
*
20:38 / 06.03.06
It could be a southernism, I suppose.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
20:38 / 06.03.06
I'd like to venture that perhaps the targeted poster is also entitled to ask for evidence that her "complaints" are unfounded.

I'm not sure how I'd prove that, for instance, "carp" is gender-neutral in its implications. A single case study like yours suggests that there is some (however limited) negatively gendered association with the word: in the face of that single case study, I don't think I could say that such a complaint is "unfounded". The most I could say is that the gendered association is perhaps not mainstream and widespread (because you, understandably in this context, can only present one study) and that anecdotally in my decades of speaking, reading and hearing English, I haven't come across it.
 
  

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