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Underground > Comic Books >

7 Soldiers: Mister Miracle

  
  

Page: 123(4)56789... 13

 
 
Mario
00:39 / 24.09.05
Oh yes..Thaddeus Brown (technically the first MM) died in his first appearance. Scott wasn't trained by him but he inherited the act.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
01:18 / 24.09.05
Aha! I'd wondered about Thaddeus, having only seen scant reference in the past.

Re: Shilo-is-Scott. I don't know; to a certain extent, Scott was always the most-human-of-the-Gods, he was the one who gave up Godpower (granted, in a more recent non-Kirby incarnation, so let's ignore as we see fit), and he often seems less than willing to let people into the idea of the New Gods (it took a while in the Giffen JLA for him to admit, you know, that he was a God). I suppose my point is that I don't know how much I like him as "infecting" Shilo with his essence.

The "flesh suit" thing is interesting, though, and I liked how Shilo kept referring to the New God "smell," and how it was all over everything.

That Great Escape at the beginning was BEAUTIFUL.

Shilo got buff! I vaguely remember him from JLA way-back-when being a scrawny dude; but that was Giffen era or just after.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
03:26 / 25.09.05
Chad is the 7SOLDIERZ go-to guy! [I'll try not to replace all the Ss with Zs, ok]

this #1 read so much like the 1st arc on THE MATRIX to me. I'm unfamiliar with Shiloh's previous installments, but it seems he's not that much aware of the New Godz eternal war. I don't believe he's Scott Free, but rather poorly trained by the former Mr. Miracle.

maybe he's the human avatar for the Mr. Miracle archetype, this being a sleeping software/suit/conscience just waiting to be opened, installed and run. Metron and the Motherboxxx tipped that with that classic Adventure Call and Soul Search. very good sequence, by the way.

as a TV escape artist Shiloh is frustrated and unaware of his full potential [like a TV Spider-Man whose Uncle Ben never died], which apparently is to free New Genesis from the Dark Side.

and what if... Shiloh's trapped inside a virtual reality construct of the DCU in Apokolips? or located on Earth, but the way he perceives the DCU is mostly an illusion, as the planet is slowly being invaded by Darkseid's acollytes [in service of/serving the Sheeda]? it'd be cool.

it's funny how all those 7S's 1st issues have brought mixed feelings and in the end everything falls into place inside the larger Sheeda plot. guess it won't be different here.

yeah, the art was rushed at times, most notably for the general lack of backgrounds [Ferry is very good - again: that first sequence, man - but was probably already busy with his Marvel duties without DC's concern]. I like his work a lot but how cool would it have been if this book had art by one of the current retro-future Kirby Kids: Mike Allred, José Ladronn, Keith Giffen, Darwyn Cooke or GODLAND's Tom Scioli?

but overall I have lotz of Love Below this and can't wait to see more of Shiloh 3000 soon.
 
 
Mario
12:01 / 25.09.05
If I were to make a prediction, I'd say we'll discover that WHEN Darkseid won, he cast the gods of New Genesis "down from Heaven" and erased the memories of their mortal allies. The only escapee was Metron (who's always tended to play his own game).

Hence, we have a Black Racer who's stuck in his host body, and a Mister Miracle who doesn't remember exactly how he got his skills. And a Metron who, as usual, has his own agenda.
 
 
Aertho
15:17 / 25.09.05
Thanks for the praise, Hector, but I'm sure I'm not correct. A point I didn't make is this: Scott Free, as New God archetype, can exist in all levels below him - as variations on a theme. Similar to the way we've seen Gloriana become Wicked Stepmother, Medusa, and Morgan Le Fey. Scott Free may exist on Earth as Siddhartha Buddha and Shiloh Norman at different points, as also temporarily overlap that existence by dropping fully into DCU. New Gods my be like Archons in that way.

Was Scott Free known as "Croatoan" when he escaped from Summer's End?

Also of note: The Sheeda use technology and that leads us to believe that they are from the future. Are the New Gods from the future? The funny thing here is that we percieve the New Gods to use incomprehensible technologies to accomplish their feats. We also see broken Sheeda spiders to be "machine-like" constructs. Is it merely the result of perception of the otherworldly that results in making the magickal look machinelike?
 
 
RadJose
17:04 / 25.09.05
i feel like the dumbest guy ever, but i can't make out what's hitting the pavement and breaking at the bottom of the second to last page. Any help?
 
 
SiliconDream
19:55 / 25.09.05
That would be the chess piece the Black Racer is holding at the top of the page.
 
 
RadJose
01:38 / 26.09.05
Thanks SiliconDream, part of my problem is that i read what the Black Racer was holding as the lever that he'd use to drive an automatic wheelchair, not noticing that the bottom wasn't attached to anything...
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
02:28 / 26.09.05
Something about the pacing in that bit, with the black knight being broken, was off. That didn't help things.
 
 
FinderWolf
15:31 / 26.09.05
re >> Dark Side (?)

Do you think we'll see Darkseid actually named as "Darkseid" or just listed as the representative of the "Dark Side" (shades of Star Wars)?
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
15:39 / 26.09.05
I expect so; Shilo's being portrayed as not knowing anything about Apokolips and New Genesis, so the he'd think it was "Dark Side" and not entirely understand the horror/fear that's meant to engender. As he comes to a greater understanding of the situation, I figure we'll see Darkseid as Darkseid.

-Darkseid as the bad father? He's a strong candidate, but it'd be cool to have more of Granny Goodness.

-I want a light-up supersuit like Shilo's. Damn it.
 
 
ciarconn
18:44 / 26.09.05
I do not know if this wolud qualify as a different thread or if it fits right here:
Can we do an analysis of the archetypes Kirby used in forming his new gods? I have given it some thought, and it has some interesting points, like the lack of a benign mother figure... so, interested?
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
19:59 / 26.09.05
well, we can start with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Gods and go from there.

one little thing: I remember Morrison saying in several interviews that with 7S he's taking the characters to their original concept, but somewhat updated.

so, originally, Mr. Miracle was the son of Highfather, traded with Orion [Darkseid's kid] as part of a peace negotiation. Scott Free was raised in Apokolips and Orion in New Genesis. IF Morrison wanted to use this...

I may be way off, but even the solicitation for #2 says those are "man-eating cars of Apokolips" so to me either Shiloh's stuck in Darkseid's planet or something similar down here, with everybody bitch-slapping him in order to awaken him.
 
 
Mario
20:35 / 26.09.05
My buddy Sean Walsh has a pretty good New Gods site: http://www.sean-walsh.com/newgods/

And I'm not just saying that because I wrote some of it.
 
 
Mario
20:41 / 26.09.05
The Gods of New Genesis all symbolize Freedom, at one level or another. On the other hand, Darkseid symbolizes Control, with his Elite taking on various facets.
 
 
grant
02:10 / 02.10.05
I want to see more of this stuff in the wiki -- especially the Is Shiloh Scott Free? and the Black Racer bio.

Oh, and the Black Racer is Death. So, uh, if somebody's going to die, I'd bet on our Hanged Man.

----

note to self: poss. occult connection Re: Santeria/Lucumi "Seven African Powers" -- seek correspondences.
 
 
Mario
12:47 / 02.10.05
I really don't understand where this "Is Shiloh Scott?" theory is coming from. It seems like an unnecessary complication, given Shiloh's history.
 
 
Aertho
13:50 / 02.10.05
Isn't Gloriana Tenebrae really a Summer's End (higher order) Wicked Witch/Stepmother/Medusa/Morgan Le Fey?

Isn't Ystin really a Avallach (higher order) Sir Justin/Mulan/Langobard?

Isn't Batman really a DCU (higher order) Midnighter?

Isn't The Glimmer really just a Wonderworld (higher order) Flash?

Isn't Darkseid really a New God (higher order) Lex Luthor?

Isn't Lex Luthor really a DCU (higher order) Bill Gates/Donald Trump?

-

The question of whether Shiloh is Scott Free is, at this point, really only for the sake of better understanding the levels of superconflict that already exist in the overpopulated DCU. I think it was wedding-heat that first suggested such an arrangement of hero work during the analysis of JLA:Classified 1-3. The Ultramarines were unprepared and inefficient for a battle against time-travelling bully universes and mindreading gorilla megalomaniacs. The Whip is more mundane and human, and thus a lower order version of Wonder Woman/Catwoman. To each hero exists a level of conflict that it should exist at - otherwise the archetype fails to acheive its purpose.

When Ellis and Miller were filling their funny books with analogs of the JLA, Morrison deconstructed his heroes further to reveal the "gods" that the JLA were based on. As if Adam One wasn't Superman, burned to a crisp and made an eloquent giant. The Olympians were based on Titans.

And that's exactly where I'm going with this. The New Gods exist as higher order archetypes of superhumans that exist in the DCU. I never did quite like how they were treated as contemporaries of the DCU heroes - when they seemed to mean so much more. It's Super God versus SuperDevil plus prodigal sons and primary colored outfits!

There is, without a doubt, a certain amount of complication involved with making Shiloh the DCU echo-type of the Scott Free New God. Scott and Shiloh existed at the same time in the mundane and humorous world of the Giffen JLA. But the fact remains: Scott taught Shiloh everything he knows, and we've seen how travel between higher and lower order universes is prevalent - especially in JLA and now in 7S. Perhaps this Mister Miracle mini is about getting Shiloh to get off the mundane and humorous level of superconflict and get to a level of conflict that his archetype should exist at, otherwise he — as an escape artist superhero — fails to acheive its purpose.
 
 
Aertho
14:56 / 02.10.05
Possibly for Solitaire Rose:

What's the difference between Mammord and Urgrund?
 
 
Mario
16:52 / 02.10.05
"There is, without a doubt, a certain amount of complication involved with making Shiloh the DCU echo-type of the Scott Free New God. Scott and Shiloh existed at the same time in the mundane and humorous world of the Giffen JLA."

That's more or less where I'm going. There's a difference between sharing the same Aspect (if I may go a little Zelazny for a moment), and equating identity. Adam One, Supreme, Majestic, Hyperion, Samaritan, et al may share the Aspect & Attributes of Superman, but no one ever says that Superman IS these characters. Shiloh has been described as inheriting the "mantle" of Mister Miracle...I think that's enough.

"What's the difference between Mammord and Urgrund?"

Mammord = Wonderworld, the last bastion of Heroes.

Urgrund = Asgaard, the first world of Gods.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
18:24 / 02.10.05
who is Adam One again? [was he the Captain Marvel equivalent in Authority?] I simly forgot; both google and wikipedia gave me nothing.

another thing I had forgotten was Scott's origin, but just got my hands on the first... volume of Kirby's MR. MIRACLE. hey, when Scott Free [soon to become MM 2] meets Thadeus Brown [MM 1] and Oberon, he tells them he was raised in an orphan home.

only later his ties with the New Gods were revealed/created. I'm pretty sure this MM3 - at least in the way Morrison is doing it - has much more in common with that...
 
 
Mario
20:23 / 02.10.05
Adam One was the Superman analogue in the future of Wonderworld, seen in JLA: Rock of Ages.
 
 
This Sunday
20:35 / 02.10.05
Wonderworld was in the future?
Adam One was Adam Kadmon in Kal El drag. First, last, greatest and possibly the Jesus that God rockets to earth in 'Paradise Lost'.
I thought Wonderworld was. Not in the future or in the past or right now or sideways from Thursday, but just that it was. And now it's not, 'cause it got smashed up by its Maggedon-infected inhabitants.
Which would be when, probably, the JLA took in Qweqwe the baby universe.
 
 
Mario
22:04 / 02.10.05
Well, sort of. It was described as existing on the time-space frontier.
 
 
The Falcon
22:11 / 02.10.05
Uh-huh. I couldn't resist cracking out the New God featuring JLA stuff, either. Blasted through 'Rock of Ages' and 'World War III' over the last week, ostensibly in prep for doing a WIKI page on MM#1, which - the keen-eyed will note - has yet to occur.

On the latter score, DeeDee's got it, at least in pure linear narrative terms - Wonderworld, or 'heaven' as I think Metron calls it in WW3, was destroyed in the now. It was at the edge of the DC universe, near the Source Wall, which bounds the aforementioned. Only the Glimmer survived. Mammord was the senseless protoplast that A-1 had to wrest into the Arcadia to be; it's more a warrior myth, I think.

Of course, Zauriel visits the actual Heaven in that storyline too, and it's still okay, but planning replacements for Earth in another orthogonal/meta shift. (That whole scene's a real air-puncher, though; "I, Baumiel of the Bull-Host, will stand with you" "And I..." "And I..." - CUMMON!! I love Zauriel.)
 
 
Colonel Kadmon
22:26 / 02.10.05
I have never worn "Kal El drag".
 
 
The Falcon
22:30 / 02.10.05
I'm not sure that the New Gods are higher order DCU types, either. They're kinda, mmm, well you can make them relational, but they're a little odd for that.

I mean, you could make a case for Metron and Hourman, I suppose; the current model was an initiate of the Mobius-chairbound one in RoA/1,000,000. I don't buy Darkseid as higher order Lex, at all. Grodd, maybe, but even then... Lightray > The Ray? I don't see how you can chuck Vermin Vundabarr and, I dunno, Serifan into the magic analogue blender and come out with anything sensible.

Not suggesting that your read is without value, of course, far from it. Very illuminating.
 
 
Aertho
22:48 / 02.10.05
There's a difference between sharing the same Aspect (if I may go a little Zelazny for a moment), and equating identity. Adam One, Supreme, Majestic, Hyperion, Samaritan, et al may share the Aspect & Attributes of Superman, but no one ever says that Superman IS these characters.

But that's just it: Some characters bear a greater significance, and have a more pure conflict. And one might see the stories that Grant is telling as giving these levels a sort of navigation and relationship to others.

Of course Samaritan isn't Superman, but culturally, they are the same.

For instance - Knight and Squire are members of the Ultramarines. When Knight is captured, he entreats the Squire to contact and acquire the assistance of Batman - his higher order (JLA) archetype. Once accomplished, Squire is thrust into a world faster and more strenous than the one she is natured to. Both Knight-and-Squire and Batman-and-Robin are culturally the same, but NOT interchangeable. Knight-and-Squire can be Batman-and-Robin, but the reverse is not true. A = B, but B ? A.



Adam One = Papa, Superman = Mama, Apollo? = Baby
Scott Free = Papa, Shiloh Norman = Mama, David Blaine? = Baby

So what I'm saying is Shiloh = Scott, but Scott ? Shiloh. It's more involved than just mantle-passing. I'm suggesting that Morrison is applying a sense of depth to the orientation of New God conflict and its DCU Earth variant.
 
 
Aertho
22:52 / 02.10.05
I don't buy Darkseid as higher order Lex, at all. Grodd, maybe, but even then... Lightray > The Ray? I don't see how you can chuck Vermin Vundabarr and, I dunno, Serifan into the magic analogue blender and come out with anything sensible.

No system's perfect.

And I'm not suggesting that all characters get analogs. That would be boring.
 
 
Aertho
22:56 / 02.10.05
A = B, but B ? A.

Dammit. Those question marks were supposed to be not-equal signs.

Hopefully I've made my position clear and substantial for the wiki and further discourse. I don't want to beat a dead horse. If ya'll got questions, though, fire away.
 
 
Mario
23:28 / 02.10.05
I think I understand what you are saying. It's not that Shilo equals Scott, but more like Shilo is a subset of Scott. I'm still not convinced it applies here, not without more evidence, but it's an intriguing twist on the whole flesh-suit/fluid identity trope Grant likes to play.
 
 
The Natural Way
08:50 / 03.10.05
"Emanation" is the word I like 2 use for it. Nice and elegant. Don't really have a prob w/ Scott literally being trapped in a Shiloh identity. Since when has time mattered in a Morrison story? Scott and Shiloh sharing the Giffen-verse's no weirder than the (SPOOOOOOOOOOIIIIILER) supes in Zenith battling their future selves in the form of the Lloigor.

Not going 2 commit to the theory, tho'.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:42 / 03.10.05
David Blaine? = Baby

This is surely the highest order thing ever posted to Barbelith.
 
 
Mario
11:08 / 03.10.05
I was thinking "avatar" might be more apt. The higher in order you go, the more complete an avatar you can become. Of course, who's to say the New Gods exist at the highest order?
 
 
Triplets
11:16 / 03.10.05
It's easier to understand when you realise Xyu/eon is a lower order presence of Robotman Reformed.

Do you see?
 
  

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