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"Countdown to Infinite Crisis" spoiler

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Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo

04:08 / 01.04.05

I just want to know whose cornflakes Keith Giffen and JM DeMatties pissed in.

Let me guess...L-Ron is going to end up being a Terminator created by the Manhunters because they KNEW their Millenium plot would fail?

Pissers. Glad to see the JLI team got a gig at Marvel.

19:14 / 02.04.05

I finally picked this up and despite not being an avid DC reader I really liked it.
I thought all the concerns about Booster and Ted's previous "funny" appearances were covered with proper explanation. Things are darker in the DCU nowadays and it is addressed, so I don't see the problem to be honest.

I also didn't really get the feeling that everyone was fobbing Ted off as he went from hero to hero for help because in reality he didn't go to most of them for help, they just happened to be around to introduce whatever mini-series' are spiralling out of Countdown.

Batman obviously has "League" issues after Identity Crisis.

All the heroes brought in to help after the warehouse was broken into left after they couldn't find anything of note.

Superman goes off to warn his fellow Kryptonite affected friends, definitely the sensible thing to do if a bunch of it goes missing and there are no other leads to follow.

Shazam obviously has other things on his mind that have nothing to do with Ted and Ted only goes there when his scarab glows (I agree I think we'll see Booster taking up the Blue Beetle mantle once all this is done and dusted).

Diana offers all the reassurance she can at the time, more than most of the other heroes.

J'onn is cold, possibly the only one that really stands out as being completely disinterested with no good reason. The S.O.S. from Rann covers that one up nicely though, an intergalactic war definitely beats a personal crisis.

I dunno, maybe I'm the target audience for this sort of thing. A non-DC reader drawn in by the hype (and the cost, ahem). I don't give much of a thought to previous continuity or characterization past what is shown in this comic. And for me it all seems VERY balanced and well thought out.
Still not sold on the mini's coming out of Countdown but I am interested in the Infinite Crisis story when it all does come to a head.

(and as blasphemous as it may seem I enjoyed Countdown much more than Manhattan Guardian or Legion of Superheroes this week)

13:15 / 03.04.05

Well, that was pretty average.

there's only a paragraph or so of crudity in what is essentially at least 17 paragraphs.

and that's a direct steal from Reservoir Dogs, anyway. I enjoyed the review more than the comic itself.

22:53 / 03.04.05

Honestly, some good, some bad. The Shazam bit, the Rann/Thanagar bit bad, sorta just squeeze it in, get some gaffer tape and hope it holds. I didn't mind the OMAC/Checkmate stuff.

Though it really did feel like you could see the blueprint underneath showing through. This happens here, this happens here, put gaffer tape here. The writters do try to make the best they can of it, and the art is usually top notch, so for a buck it aint all bad really...

07:11 / 04.04.05

As a stepping stone for four mini series it was always going to feel a bit "prologue followed by prologue". Added to that the almost appropriate placement of the adverts for each mini series was there to bolster the feeling that this singular book leads somewhere.
The only bit that really stood out as being gaffered on was the Villain's United section as it had no connection with Ted's story at all.
I still enjoyed it immensely though.

ONLY NICE THINGS

08:16 / 04.04.05

Things are darker in the DCU nowadays and it is addressed, so I don't see the problem to be honest.

But are they, really? I mean, what exactly has gotten "darker"? Hal Jordan (and Jason Todd?) are back, showing once again that death is not something you really need to worry about too much (I think Byrne has brought back Elasti-girl too - the one who paradigmatically didn't come back). What has changed, exactly? There's a new, "special ops" Justice League that handles the secret, underground cases - rather like the JL Task Force, or the Ostrander Suicide Squad. Speedy is HIV positive, but the fact that characters in comics don't age means that she is more likely to die from Deathstroke the Terminator than AIDS (she does have to die at some point, however, and Los Bros Hernandez have to write and draw it). I may have missed some of the "darker" moments - Our Worlds at War? The reformation of the Outsiders? - but in what sense are these necessarily darker than, say, Despero killing Gypsy's family or the Silver Sorceress bleeding out on the sands of KooeyKooeyKooey? In fact, the modern emphasis in many parts of the DCU on interpersonal relationships over two-fisted action could be seen as the direct descendant of the Giffen and DeMattheis Justice League.

So, where is the exceptional darkness? Primarily, to my limited understanding, it is located in the 6 issues of "Identity Crisis", in which the characters seem to be behaving rather out of character. This behaving out of character seems to be perpetuated in "Countdown" - if we accept, which is something of a stretch, that the government or whoever actually thinks that cyborg mind-controller Maxwell Lord is the perfect man to police metahumanity, that still doesn't explain why Blue Beetle is suddenly getting the brush-off from all and sundry for no more convincing reason than dramatic necessity.

09:57 / 04.04.05

Countdown to Infinite Crisis

I say again:

COUNTDOWN.

TO.

INFINITE.

CRISIS.

Surely someone's taking the piss - I mean, I really hope someone's taking the piss, because if fandom is supposed to take a title like that seriously, well, things aren't looking good.

14:24 / 04.04.05

I did like the new OMAC design, visually speaking.

14:42 / 04.04.05

Yeah, but do you think the title is verging on hilarious?

Just downloaded a torrent - overall I didn't mind it. My strongest criticisms are that it's a little dull - merely workmanlike - and absurdly po-faced. I'm not sure why the powers-that-be are so hellbent on ret-conning the fun out of the DCU, but it's the kind of impulse I would have had at 13.

"No, comics are serious, and not for kids."
"More rape!"

15:30 / 04.04.05

Yeah, earlier in this thread I mentioned how the title seemed like fanboy jokes they make about Crisis-type titles.

Keith Giffen's comments on COUNTDOWN, from a comic book resources interview:

He says he liked Identity Crisis, but disagreed with it on certain points, especially on the rape (he basically said if you want to kill Sue, fine, but do you really have to rape her before you kill her off?).

As for Countdown and the death of Blue Beetle, he said he found it ok mostly. He mentioned that he was flattered that people cared about Blue Beetle at all (since he, DeMatteis and Maguire pretty much defined Beetle for fans).

However...

----- [now beginning official bits of interview]

Giffen brought up the man who literally put the gun to Blue Beetle's head, Maxwell Lord, a collaborative creation of Giffen, DeMatteis and Helfer, with credit given to Giffen and DeMatteis. Does that mean he's necessarily upset with how they've changed the character? Not really. "Look, I also created Lobo, but do you think I gave a damn there was a Lil' Lobo running around in 'Young Justice?' No," said Giffen. "If I have any dismay about what I've read so far in 'Countdown' is that in order to make a point, some of the writers just forced shit in there that shouldn't have been there. J'onn J'onzz turning around and treating Blue Beetle like that came out of the blue. The fact that he was treated like such a shit heel, all right, that might be some people at DC's attitude towards the character, but the people who scream the most about consistency and continuity should be the most consistent and continuity minded. Just to make a point, to shift things around like that, it's unfortunate, but I didn't write it and that's just my opinion.

"Maxwell Lord started off as kind of a bastard, but not pure evil. If you remember correctly, Maxwell Lord murdered someone in his origin. Lord was always sort of a nebulous, self-serving hard ass. I don't know that he'd pick up a gun and shoot somebody in my world, but it's not my world. My world is 'ICBINTJL,' it's kind of the martini of comics. It's an acquired taste and not everyone's going to like it. It does stand out like a sore thumb and I understand DC saying we can't have one book going left while the rest of the company is going right."

16:28 / 04.04.05

But are they, really?

According to the general readership and the editors at DC they are. I repeat, as a non-DC reader (just a lurker) I've been informed via many interviews/forums/reviews post-Identity Crisis that the DCU is a darker place since Identity Crisis and that it's a deliberate shift of tone and theme.

I don't buy Batman, Superman, Titans, Outsiders, Flash etc etc etc. I do however keep an eye on reviews, interviews and reader comments on the entire DCU in case I'm missing "the comic of a lifetime".
Oh and I'm a little nosey and like to be kept abreast of whats happening without actually spending any of my hard earned cash.

So without getting into specifics if the general consensus is that the DCU is getting darker then I'd be stupid to ignore it and pretend that the DCU is in fact all happy and gay.

And yes, if you'd been reading any of the related interviews regarding Countdown you'd know that Identity Crisis (and the theme and tone therein) is EXACTLY what kick started this whole shift into a darker DCU. You'd also know that as Identity Crisis was written something like three years ago the powers that be at DC have been planning this since then. So there were a few hints and such like dropped years ago when no-one was looking.

I liked Giffen's interview, he said the same things a lot of people are saying about Countdown but said it in a way that you can respect his opinion because he knows it is just that.
"I didn't write it so I don't really care". Class.

23:08 / 04.04.05

where'd the giffen interview come from? is it online?

m.

madfigs #32, now with wasabi

23:59 / 04.04.05

Giffen Interview at comicbookresources.com

ONLY NICE THINGS

06:58 / 05.04.05

According to the general readership and the editors at DC they are.

Right. So, would anyone who actually reads the comics, rather than interviews, like to venture to comment on this? Is this "darkness" being applied consistently across the DC Universe, or is Identity Crisis On Infinite Earths just creating another pocket, much as the different Superman titles have different tones?

ONLY NICE THINGS

08:03 / 05.04.05

(That's not meant to be pure snark, by the way, but the function of interviews with editors is to spark fan interest is to create discussion is to sell comics to you. They are not reliable sources. Remember the Twelve? It seems to me harder to impose a change of tone across a disparate and continuity-challenged publishing "Universe" like DC - even the books dealing with a single superhero don't necessarily keep their ducks in a row - than it is to say you are doing so in an interview. If the change is currently located in the "Crisis" books, of which there are so far seven in total - which is what I asked, not "are the Crisis books the source of this change?" - then how does that differ from the "darker" tone suggested by the Silver Sorceress bleeding out on the sands of KooeyKooeyKooey, or Commissioner Gordon being shown pictures of his naked daughter bleeding from a bullet in the spine?)

10:02 / 05.04.05

you know this talk about continuity of tone across the DCU has made me think of some stuf about i was daydreaming about this week, the idea that across a comic universe there are many different shades and tones seems fine, just as in ours some people lives / continuities would read like a glorious 3 colour romp full of one-liners and goofing and others would be bleak grey grim and gritties that would make identity crisis look like the care bears.

so i don't really like the idea that the grim new DCU doesn't have room for the Giffen-era league, or even that the same characters can't be different in different contexts, from tooling around with the boys having a laugh to grimly investigating lifes underbelly, seems a shame really.

18:56 / 05.04.05

I'm currently reading Wonder Woman and BATMAN with-in the DCU. The current Batman storyline seems to reflect several of these aspect.

It's much more associated with the rest of the DCU

a major plot element revolves around the "stolen Kryptonite"
the new(ish) villian seems to be a resurected Jason Todd

All of these factors seem to connect overtly to these recent Series.

Wonder Woman is a much better read and will soon feature artwork by Rags (torn leotards) Moralis. As Rucka wil be writing that OMAC mini-series there may well be some connection. Interestingly, one of the proposed Countdown Miniseries that was scrapped was titled Attack of the Amazons, all of which may be an indication of the socio-political themes that are currently being explored in the series. Of course there was a recent FLASH crossover that seems to connect to the Villians United series.

The FLASH series which I don't really read seems to also be leading into this project with its ROGUE's WAR storyline and was probably the most involved in crossing over with ID:C.

still this seems to raise the question: What is DC's current flagship book?
During the DC 1,000,000 crossover event JLA played a major role in the story's development and resolution. Somehow I just don't see that happening in relation to the JLA's current storyline (haven't really been following it). Geoff Johns writes JSA & Titans currently; I wonder if/how they will play into it.

19:33 / 05.04.05

I'm enjoying Rucka's Wonder Woman too. It's far from perfect but it's fun and (usually) an interesting take on Diana.

I think the 'darkening' of the DCU (or at least this recent wave) definitely started with Identity Crisis. The other books don't have the degree of rape, murder, and heroes betraying each other (or at least acting pretty lousy towards each other) that IC featured. Countdown is following suit. Rucka has said this is all about a rift in the Big 3 DC characters.

See my earlier post about DiDio's comments about this being a big theme in his view of the DCU superhero world. They seem to be going for a theme of 'trust violated...watch the ripple effects of the trust violated and ethics compromised (especially regarding Batman's mindwipe and the split JL decision to mindwipe Dr. Light)...now watch the heroes try to make up and grow from the experience.'

19:40 / 05.04.05

I don't think DC has a flagship book per se (did it ever, really?); JLA has certainly become a title of rotating writer/artist teams. They say it will eventually get a steady team but not anytime soon.

I'm Rick Jones, bitch

19:54 / 05.04.05

I think there are more than a few double standards going on here. Remember, Grant Morrison used rape and child molestation (and OK a genetic bomb as well) to explain Crazy Jane's powers in Doom Patrol. Nobody's making cracks about Richard "Torn Leotards" Case, are they?

What has me gipped by the new Crisis is that it's big and planned out - there are places these people know they're going to go. I think it's only reasonable we wait to see where those places are before we make with the hysterical screeching, snotty jibes at creators and all this other crap. The Flash died in the last Crisis - now Blue Beetle's going to get to be the saint (very clear parallels between the deaths, what with going out having sabotaged some shit to buy the DCU some time. It's all been beautifully drawn and it's all been well written, if not sometimes misguided.

This is the event for me - why watch bony wee grant morrison play with Jack Kirby's best hand-me-downs in his own little fenced off sandpit, when you can watch a couple of brightly clad hooligans have an epic punch up by the swings?

19:54 / 05.04.05

Right. So, would anyone who actually reads the comics, rather than interviews, like to venture to comment on this?

And there you completely ignored the rest of my paragraph that mentions reviews and forums (like this one here).
I may not buy the comics but I certainly read lots about them and when something comes up that warrants my money rather than my online attention I do buy it.... hence my shelling out 75p for Countdown.

ONLY NICE THINGS

20:00 / 05.04.05

My apologies.

So, would anyone who actually reads the comics, rather than interviews, reviews and forums, like to venture to comment on this?

Sorry. That is actually snarkier than the original snark-lite option, but I couldn't resist.

21:03 / 05.04.05

I read comics AND all the other stuff, so I feel perfectly fine about posting THIS comment on Countdown and Beetle's death:

http://www.comicscommunity.com/boards/pop/?read=28439

This poster makes the very reasonable point that if you were a hero and some villain asked you to join up with his evilness, couldn't you LIE and just SAY you would join the evil one, all the while working to sabotage his plans to ruin your friends' lives? But he makes the point well (and amusingly) in his own words, so I wanted to put his specific post here in addition.

By the way, unrelated to the above opinion/thoughts, apparently in OMAC #1, someone creamates Ted Kord's body.

ONLY NICE THINGS

21:07 / 05.04.05

Well, quite. And further, if you were the evil genius, how could you be confident that that was not what he was doing? It's an HR nightmare...

21:09 / 05.04.05

Who was it that said Rags (torn leotards) Moralis would be remembered for the delicate rendering of post rape leotards?
Was probably somewhere in this thred.

As for the COUNTDOWN; I agree, there seems to be some planning going on. However, I'm not so sure I would say that the book in question was "well written." The art was, to say the least, uneven. Though Rags provided some quality rendering . . . other than leotards.

Of the miniseries spinning out of this event issue, I'm marginally interested in OMAC, due to Rucka's past (as in prior to COUNTDOWN)writing. I'm barely curious as to how DAY of VENGANCE & VILLIANS UNITED might play out. This doesn't seem like a good indication of the quality in COUNTDOWN's writing.

I'd hesitate to place the (Silver Age) FLASH's death in the same catagory as Blue Beetle's Murder. However, as the New Crisis has yet to even begin, it certainly remains to be seen if Blue Beetle's death will mean anything. From the last reading, Nobody has even found out about it; unless you're reading I can't believe it's the Justice League, in which case it hasn't happened.

In contrast, I found the art & the writing for 7 Soldiers to be very compelling and drove me to want to see how this "epic" plays out accross the various spin-off series. To DC's credit, they seem to be playing to a much broader pool of readers then I've seem them do before.

Haus of Mystery

21:10 / 05.04.05

why watch bony wee grant morrison play with Jack Kirby's best hand-me-downs in his own little fenced off sandpit

Or alternatively do something more interesting than ret-conning a load of perfectly interesting continuity for the sake of making the DCU a *grrrr* scary, and mature place.

21:14 / 05.04.05

On the Join or Die thing: I thought it would be at least more interesting to to see that HR dilemma play out. Considering Max Lord & Ted Kord's history it could've even made for some laughs. The bullet in the head though . . . it's SOOOOOOOOOOO John Woo.

ONLY NICE THINGS

21:39 / 05.04.05

I'm loving the idea of Ted Kord slowly driving Max to distraction with a series of pratfalls, hare-brained schemes and comic asides as his henchman, utterly subverting the entire mega-event...

22:04 / 05.04.05

Or, indeed, why watch a load of cocks who haven't got over Frank Millar and Watchmen drag us back to the worst of the Eighties?

23:20 / 05.04.05

For the record:
"Well, this sucks."
Scott Tipton

I'm Rick Jones, bitch

01:03 / 06.04.05

...and explain not only why I think it’s a bad idea, but also why I can’t help but feel, at some level, personally insulted by it.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo

01:30 / 06.04.05

So, would anyone who actually reads the comics, rather than interviews, reviews and forums, like to venture to comment on this?

I thought I did, but since I am writing so much lately I don't know if I am posting things or just think that I did because I remembered doing it in a fever dream:

As a story, it was painfully derivative and felt more like I was reading a movie trailer than an actual peice of fiction. The art was fairly well, but if you couldn't tell the ending after the 5th page, you haven't read enough fiction. Blue Beetle was the super-hero equivelent of the soldier who talks about his girl back home, the cop who is a week from retirement and the scientists who says he checked everything before testing the big machine that will change the way we do everything.

I expected a lot better from the talent line up, but it just proves you can't create a decent story by committee.

It also poked at my pet peeve in comics, which is "I can't think of anything to do with this hero, so why don't we kill them to make an impact." Blue Beetle was a good concept that hasn't EVER been used properly, and now that there's the big death story, every time someone wants to use the concept, they have to deal with the Big Death (much like how any time you want to use Dr. Fate, you have to deal with an amazingly convoluted backstory).

But as a story on its own, it was an idiot plot...the only way the plot worked is that everyone involved was a complete idiot...and by the fifth time Blue Beetle's suspisions were dismissed, it was so out of character, I almost wondered if they were doing a story about how all the heroes of the DCU were being mind controlled.

Feh.

I'm Rick Jones, bitch

01:54 / 06.04.05

Well, that probably is what they're shooting for.

rabideyemovement

02:59 / 06.04.05

I hope so. Mind control would be the only way to clean up the mess of Leaguers acting out of character. It was entertaining, but there are plenty of characters they could have used without having to destroy a couple of good old concepts. Maxwell Lord a villain? Beetle dead? Jeez. I really hope they plan to resurrect him with that glowing scarab... It was a good story, just forced onto the characters too hard. Did anyone else think Booster may have taken on that computer-trap on purpose?

BrianFitzgerald

03:06 / 06.04.05

Regarding the "darkening of the DCU" theme, in the current JLA story, it's been revealed that, due to last year's JLA/Avengers crossover (in which the Marvel and DC universes briefly merged), the good guys no longer get a guaranteed win in the DCU. So the Crime Syndicate, which was previously easily defeated by Aquaman and Martian Manhunter, is currently easily kicking JLA-butt. Doubtful that this is intentionally IC/Countdown-related, but it does fit the "darkness" theme.
Also, though I don't read it, there is a relatively recent spin-off of JLA called Justice League Elite, which is a black-ops, Authority-style, "getting their hands dirty/bloody doing what the JLA can't" team that is fully-sanctioned (yet plausibly denied) by Supes, Bats, WW and the rest of the Big Names. So, that's a little dark, too.
Plus, at the end of Seven Soldiers #0, as most members of this board are no doubt aware, most of the heroes are massacred. I'm pretty confident that Grant will pull a happy ending off in SS #1, but for right now, again, pretty dark stuff.

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