BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


"Countdown to Infinite Crisis" spoiler

 
  

Page: 12345(6)78910

 
 
This Sunday
08:35 / 10.04.05
That's 'one thing critiqued' not 'one thing not critiqued' there near the beginning. Should learn to not continue after a midsentence pause, but just start it over again.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
12:49 / 10.04.05
Yeah, I've been thinking of Grant's critique of 'adult' comics from Animal Man a lot recently too. I'm just wondering who DC are aiming this story at. Not marketing it, because with mainstream stuff you can pretty much guarentee that the same faces who've bought comics forever will buy them, but if we imagine that comics were given away free, who do they think this Infinity Crisis Wars over Secret Earths is going to appeal to? Old readers, who of course will be overjoyed at the rape retcon, Sue and Ted biting it, Lord turning out to be uberevilgenius? New fans, who won't know who Sue and Ted are, won't understand what Lord is about, and may well, if they find a copy of 'Crisis over Multiple Earths' be put off by a crap story and crap art from a much simpler time when such things didn't matter so much?

I can't see DC's audience here and can only assume they are putting so much material out because they are relying on a more or less captive audience to buy it even while complaining bitterly about it.
 
 
John Octave
16:00 / 10.04.05
What's with the growing likelihood that every woman - except Black Canary - must be raped?

Actually, there was a scene in Mike Grell's run where she was brutally attacked and some readers saw an implication that she had been raped, although Grell denies this. Still.

I can't see DC's audience here and can only assume they are putting so much material out because they are relying on a more or less captive audience to buy it even while complaining bitterly about it.

I dunno. I think more readers are eating this up than you'd think. Critics, message board people, and those who make themselves the most vocal hate this stuff, but what of the more moderate readership (the ones without blogs and review columns)? On a poll regarding Identity Crisis #2 at Comic Book Resources, 30% of those polled gave it a 10-out-of-10 rating (the highest percentage of any rating in the poll). Likewise, 41% gave Countdown a 9-10 rating, and another 33% gave it a 7-8. Not that a poll at Comic Book Resources is exactly a very scientific analysis of readership, but it at least suggests that DC's new approach isn't as universally reviled as we'd like to believe.

The one cool thing to come out of this, as suggested by more than one person already, would be Ted Kord as a funny Spectre. The embodiment of God's wrath with a sense of humor.
 
 
John Octave
16:02 / 10.04.05
Erm, Mike Grell's run on Green Arrow, is what I meant to say above.
 
 
This Sunday
19:01 / 10.04.05
Yeah, the Grell-denial was what I was alluding to by her, um, un-rape-ability.
While I do think that run of Green Arrow was, for the most, not bad stuff, that always seems a bit odd of a cop-out. This idea that every time a woman is viciously attacked, we, the audience, have to be assured there was or was not rape. Of course, Nightwing got raped and had to have the author assure us of the fact, too, but it does have a higher frequency with women.
I'll add 'Alias' onto the list of offenders, just because, while the Purpleman did not, DID NOT, we are (re)assured, rape or have any sort of sex with our heroine (excluding mindfuck), it was the one bit of 'Alias' I just didn't enjoy. It was a by-the-numbers, it's a female-centered title so let's get her (pseudo)raped as soon as we can. Hey, it worked in 'Watchmen' so it has to be brilliant, right?
But it was some weird purple pheremone zipperless rape which Cronenberg or somebody might have been able to pull off, but Bendis just fumbled about with. Again, if it'd be Luke Cage getting worked over by Purpleman (or, hell, his not-quite-ready-for-Alpha Flight daughter), how would it have been played and received? As it was, it was just, blah.
 
 
matsya
21:58 / 10.04.05
When was Nightwing raped?

m.
 
 
This Sunday
22:50 / 10.04.05
One of Devon Grayson's issues. Actually, I think Nightwing and sex might be one of her issues, but then, why write serial fiction if you aren't partly just Mary Sueing the job? Superhero serial fiction anyways.
This http://www.comicboards.com/devin.php has her saying it wasn't 'rape' but just nonconsensual sex. Pretty sure he was unconscious at the time. Lots of message board and newsgroup silliness at the time of publication, around how men cannot be raped, et cetera.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
22:54 / 10.04.05
Holy shit, they raped the Golden Age Robin!
 
 
matsya
00:08 / 11.04.05
wertham was right!

m.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
00:41 / 11.04.05
J Octave;

If that's the incident I'm thinking of ( and god knows, there may have been others, ) it was an issue of Brave & The Bold in which Batman and Black Canary teamed up to fight, well whoever it was. In the first two or three pages the Canary was captured, 'like a bird in a cage,' and then tied up 'like bait.'

It took a while, though, for Batman to arrive - in certain circles, in the Bob Street Overguide for example, the ensuing scenes before the caped crusader showed up to save the day were considered 'GGA'.

'Batman, you're my hero !' she said, eventually, giving the big guy a hug, in her... lacey... and frilly... things.

Alan Moore, commenting on this a few years later said something like 'I don't know what Mike Grell felt he had to get off his chest then, but I hope he felt better.'
 
 
matsya
04:40 / 11.04.05
what's "GGA"?

m.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
08:46 / 11.04.05
I remember a really old Batman comic (fifties or early sixties) where Batman, post tussle with Catwoman, tells her "Now behave...Or Papa spank!"
I don't know what this adds, but it made me laugh.
 
 
This Sunday
09:53 / 11.04.05
See, Batmonkey and his lovely Cat are more or less made for BDSM undertones, in the same way you can't not have somebody get tied up in a Wonder Woman story. Even Nightwing, I mean, the raped dick jokes were always hovering just below the surface for some people, I'm sure.
But, Sue Dibny... the rare blue stretchy comment was as far as it needed to go. Rape the happy one, okeh, maybe I buy that, but... nope, still not entertaining.
Not to insult anyone's actual real life events and trauma, but, really, is getting raped in the DCU that much worse than being hive-minded by the Zazzalalalazoozoo the Queen Bee or hell, just having Dr. Light throw your body's particles forward on-scale into radiowaves and beaming you to your death somewhere far, far away when the effect wears off? Will Doctor Doom and Magneto weep for you over in 'Spider-Man' then?
Maybe that's it? Are there people out there so distanced from *everything* that they have to have their superheroes tell them rape is bad and painful? That brainwashing is good when done in the right hands? That torn tights and dishevelled maidens are sexy sex on sex sprinkled with sugar, but only if we bow our heads in empathy and accept that this, truly, is what makes us mature adults?
 
 
FinderWolf
15:08 / 11.04.05
>> D'ya think Ted Kord'll be the new Spectre?

There is much online speculation to that effect - and I agree with John Octave, my first thought on this idea was that he damn well better be a fun, goofy wisecracking Spectre a la Deadman if he does become the Wrath of God. I wanna see a fun Wrath of God after all this wannabe grim & gritty crap.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
15:32 / 11.04.05
Fun Spectre. Fucking great. He won't destroy a whole country with god's awesome wrath, he'll have a custard fucking pie fight or some shit.


Count me out.
 
 
John Octave
16:32 / 11.04.05
What if he destroyed a whole country with a giant custard pie?
 
 
osymandus
16:53 / 11.04.05
I can see that working better . Whats more shocking, then someone you though was all calm , sweetness and harmless really losing it . Your favourite kindly uncle just going nuts and trashing a bar.

Ted Kord , spectre accpetable almost caring face of wrath.

Wrath isn't anger, it's the next step up. It means some ones lost it completly.

Just a quick aside for the Day of Judgemnt , so far its not sounding the most appealing of storyline's , but wheres the Phantom Stanger come into ? Isn't mentioned in Books of Magic (or maybe Alan Moores Secret Origin story), he "brought" magic to the DC universe (maybe the PS is really Thoth ??)
 
 
FinderWolf
18:21 / 11.04.05
Ted Kord-as-Spectre going "Bwaah-hahahahahha ha ha!!!!" as he eviscerates a filthy murderer.

You know you love it.
 
 
Aertho
18:51 / 11.04.05
No I don't love it.

Why?

Because Booster Gold is the greatest thing to have happened to Blue Beetle. Ever.
 
 
Billuccho!
22:25 / 11.04.05
Sure, make Ted the Spectre, have Sue come back as a ghost, and let's have a zany romp with Ralph, Sue, Booster, and Ted travelling around solving mysteries. Special appearance by Max Lord, only as a Hannibal-Lecter-esque figure.
 
 
matsya
23:11 / 11.04.05
That's fookin' brilliant!

oh, it's all been worthwhile...

m.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
14:47 / 12.04.05
Does Deadman still exist in current DC continuity? Because Sue could be Deadchick or Deadbird or something similar to show people DC cares about it's female characters. Deadfox-y Ladee!
 
 
Spatula Clarke
16:29 / 12.04.05
I think you're really onto something there, Flowers. They could get the characters together to have a kid - nothing screams grim and gritty in quite the same way as DEADBABY.
 
 
matsya
01:40 / 13.04.05
That would be like superbaby, but more cynical, yeah?

m.
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
03:36 / 13.04.05
Starman (Robinson's run) was "taken advantage of" while he was knocked out by the daughter of the Mist (the new mist) and she had his kid, planning to raise him to hate his father. that was pretty well done, I thought, but I really dug the Robinson Starman.
 
 
FinderWolf
14:41 / 13.04.05
Deadman does indeed still exist in DC regular continuity, by the way.
 
 
The Falcon
19:16 / 13.04.05
Checklist of comics not to buy.
 
 
Mario
02:03 / 14.04.05
I'm holding out some hope for Rann/Thanagar War, simply because it takes place a few lightyears away from Earth.
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
16:51 / 14.04.05
This is an event that makes sense due to several DC Comics;

JSA
Green Arrow
Hawkman
Flash
Batman
Detective Comics
Outsiders
Teen Titans

All of which I read (cuz I'm crazy, sue me).

All of the above have been 'dark' for at least the past year and no one has said a word. The new Det issue features a shotgun suicide with a slit-wristed pregnant woman draped on his stomach.

The 'good old days' as far as I can tell from what people are posting, are very specific issues of Giffen's Justice league which is a comic which changed greatly on its own and got cancelled.

The DC Universe has been going in this direction for at least the past year. This 'event' is a treat to the readers of all these comics (who support the industry with their $$) and alienates those who haven't been reading.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
17:21 / 14.04.05
Wait... so it's specifically designed to appeal only to a handful of 'hardcore' fans of a medium which is increasingly unpopular and to further reduce the likelihood of bringing in new customers who could keep the industry financially viable in the long-run?

Genius!
 
 
Aertho
17:34 / 14.04.05
And if you think that's good...

Look for an appearance by Jean Grey in the previews of the Rann-Thanagar War. WTF?

Why can't they all be gay for Klarion?
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
18:13 / 14.04.05
Well, Infinite Countdown Mid-Life crisis DID sell out, didn't it?

What are the alternatives to this attempt to KEEP readers (he says opening a large can of worms he could care less about)?

How do you get people who have no interest in comics to buy comics?

New Yorker magazines that promote the chicness of Adrian Tomine, Chip Kidd and Dan Clowse?

Sure they'll buy some graphic novels and they ARE good work, but the majority of the industry is funnybooks (or unfunny as we've discovered) and DC has achieved a very unique goal by creating a company-wide crossover world that 60's Marvel would envy. Almost all of the comics they publish right now relate to each other, making readers want to buy em all. Infinite Crisis re-enforces that hold.

And THAT may not save, but will prolong the life of the 'problem with the industry' super hero books.







Christ I've no interest in that conversation so count me out if anyone takes up the mantle.
 
 
FinderWolf
20:35 / 14.04.05
>> All of the above have been 'dark' for at least the past year and no one has said a word. The new Det issue features a shotgun suicide with a slit-wristed pregnant woman draped on his stomach.

There's a distinction here. There's nothing wrong with 'dark' stories intrinsically. But taking characters that aren't grim-n-gritty by nature and raping them, murdering them, torching them and burning all their hair, that's another story.

There's a reason people talk disparagingly about the 'grim-n-gritty era' of the 80s/90s after Watchman and Dark Knight Returns (the first one). It's about people forcing a 'dark' template onto characters that don't work, and also about people writing stories that have dark things in them but are JUST PLAIN BAD STORIES, characters acting out of character, cheesy and obvious plotting, cheap button-pushing storylines, etc. It's more about what's gratuitous and what really works than about stories just being 'dark' per se. Violence in a Batman book is very different than Sue Dibny's rape and murder.
 
 
FinderWolf
20:37 / 14.04.05
>> Well, Infinite Countdown Mid-Life crisis

This is brilliant this is what I'm calling this from now on (the Infinite Mid-life Crisis part)
 
 
D Terminator XXXIII
23:20 / 14.04.05
It's about people forcing a 'dark' template onto characters that don't work.

Unless you're wealthy, unemployment is not light and breezy as you yourself one day might discover.
 
  

Page: 12345(6)78910

 
  
Add Your Reply