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"Countdown to Infinite Crisis" spoiler

 
  

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FinderWolf
20:13 / 30.03.05
Man, I'm reading some DC message boards about this (having not seen the issue yet) and I'm like...this is all about Maxwell Lord? This all about Checkmate and the Kilgore from Bill Messner-Loebs and Mike Baron's FLASH run early on (I guess the Kilgore was used in JLI at some point as well in giving Maxwell Lord powers??!)?!? And Booster Gold and fucking Skeets, Booster's little robot dude???

THIS is what the big DC event is all centered on? A semi-obscure characters from Justice League International/Europe nostalgia festival??

Weeeird...
 
 
FinderWolf
20:32 / 30.03.05
Apparently Maxwell Lord is revealed to be murderous psychopath.

Maxwell Lord shoots Blue Beetle in the head.

But there is apparently is a hint that Blue Beetle might return as the new OMAC or something...?

Are they just determined to kill or do horrible things to ALL the fun characters from Justice League International??

Maybe they'll make Oberon the leader of a prostitution ring next...
 
 
matsya
20:58 / 30.03.05
right, so they aren't happy just fucking up blue beetle, they have to fuck with max lord too?

that's it. I'm digging out my Giffen DeMatteis JLs this weekend. Gonna read me some GOOD comics.

m.
 
 
SiliconDream
01:33 / 31.03.05
And Booster Gold got blown into a coma and Skeets was captured and cannibalized for parts. No kidding.

That just leaves L-Ron to, I dunno, rape Fire to death and then devour her corpse. Clock's ticking!
 
 
matsya
01:47 / 31.03.05
yeah, i'm glad comics are all realistic and stuff these days. beats the fuck out of harmless optimistic escapism.

m.
 
 
Bard: One-Man Humaton Hoedown
03:32 / 31.03.05
That sound you hear that sounds like a garbage bag of rancid fruit falling apart is me vomitting.

I just read issue one.

I will repeat: The sound you are now hearing is the sound of Bard violently tossing up the contents of his stomach.

WARNING: SPOILERS PROCEED FROM HERE ON IN!!!!









The basic premise of the book? Maxwell Lord has been secretly manipulating the world ever since he got kicked out of the Justice League...including mind controlling the Justice League to make them useless ponces rather than effective heroes. So now he's going to kill all the superhumans on Earth so humans can control their own destiny...y'know...so long as the mind controlling metahuman is running the show.

Furthermore...apparently from the previews inside, the Spectre is going to go off and try to kill all the magic users in the DCU...because...y'know...THAT makes sense. Apparently the new "grand sweeping vision" of superhero comics is that every superhuman wants to kill every other superhuman because of a deep, pathological hatred of not being normal.

I know I'm ranting and going over the top here. I just really hate this book. I'm not saying that superheroes shouldn't go anywhere or remain static...I'm just saying that "we're making them edgy and COOL!" is not always the appropriate answer to making them interesting. It's like the post Dark Knight Returns/Watchmen years, I swear.
 
 
DaveBCooper
07:06 / 31.03.05
I'm planning on picking this up because it's so cheap in money terms, and also because it sounds as if it could be head-shakingly daft. I didn't read Identity Crisis because it didn't sound like my kind of thing, and I have little-to-no intention of reading any of the miniseries that will spin out of it, but the p/reviews of this comic make me want to read it in spite of myself.

And I don't want to sound dismissive, but... well, look, I loved the Giffen/DeMatteis/Maguire JLA, and even read some of his 80s solo book, and am currently enjoying the 'I can't believe it's not...' series in JLA:C, but still have to say that I can't find it in myself to summon up much of an emotion reaction to Blue Beetle being dead or Maxwell Lord being revealed as some moustache-twirling villain. Granted, I haven't read the comic in question yet, but the plot elements revealed smack so much of writing for shock effect that I can't really take it seriously.

Oh, and if the JLA have been ineffectual because of mind control or whatever, does this include them saving the world/universe/future in Grant's run on the title ? Damn, I wish I could be that ineffectual...
 
 
FinderWolf
12:22 / 31.03.05
Wow, this was kind of a train wreck - ever so slightly better than IC, but not by much.

I agree with what earlier posters have said about the suckiness of writing Blue Beetle as the superhero who no one really respects and who the big heroes just sort of condescendingly tolerate. Superman and Batman say 'his heart is in the right place but his mind gets him into trouble?!?!" I could MAYBE see Bats saying this but it's even a little condescending for HIM -- Bats probably wouldn't even use up breath giving his analysis of the Blue Beetle, for crying out loud -- Supes would never put another hero down like that, unless he was talking about Lobo or some misanthrope like that. Blue Beetle's just a little goofy, he's not a problem child who's always screwing everything up or anything.

When Booster Gold said "Everyone I've ever loved has been taken away from me!!! My sister...Ice...Skeets...!!!!" I knew we'd hit rock bottom.

(who's Booster Gold's sister, anyway, I know tons of stuff about the DCU and Booster Gold and never knew he had a sister)

And when some hero starts rhapsodizing about his computerized friend named "Skeets"....yikes.

I do like the idea of someone corrupt taking over Checkmate and making it a watchdog agency to catalog all the heroes vitals, IDs and weaknesses. It just doesn't need to be a psycho-evil Maxwell Lord.

And how on earth, I wonder, does this lead into the hopefully-cosmic, hopefully worhty of the name Crisis 2?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
13:39 / 31.03.05
I don't know... It seems to be the direction they're heading in anyway, and he's really the industry's go-to guy when it comes to this kind of thing, so shouldn't Mark Millar be allowed in to just ass-rape the lot of them ?
 
 
Jack Denfeld
14:13 / 31.03.05
yeah, i'm glad comics are all realistic and stuff these days. beats the fuck out of harmless optimistic escapism.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
14:24 / 31.03.05
Kind of on topic, but I want a t-shirt with this picture and that quote in big letters.

"yeah, i'm glad comics are all realistic and stuff these days. beats the fuck out of harmless optimistic escapism."
 
 
FinderWolf
15:08 / 31.03.05
where did that picture come from?

And what does a penguin have to do with anything?
 
 
Jack Denfeld
15:38 / 31.03.05
I don't know what the penguin has to do with anything, but it's kinda funny. I just image googled Booster Gold and found it.
 
 
Benny the Ball
15:56 / 31.03.05
Probably a reference to the Justice League Antarctica from an old JL annual.

Bats respected BB, yeah he was goofy, but he was the most analytically minded and strong willed character from the JL days (bar J'on of course) and bats liked him. Just go back and read the coma issue.

Boosters sister was around in the future - memory a little shakey here, but didn't she come to our time as a booster gold rival when he lost all his money?

Anyway, having just read JL classified 5 where Power Girl talks about how respected BB is, just makes this whole thing a lot harder to swallow.

Max Lord, BB - they don't know how to write these characters! Leave them alone, it's simple!
 
 
Mr Tricks
16:13 / 31.03.05
Mixed feelings about this issue.

BB's death was telegraphed SOOOOOOOOO far in advance that there was no real impact when it happened. The scene with him laying there with his brains all spilled out seemed gratuitous. I suppoose it was to make sure people got the message.

Am I the only one who thinks Ted Cord will become the New Specter once that whole day of vengance has been played out?

The plot seemed a bit forced. Reminds me of my days at the collage Newspaper; a bunch of us, all comics fans, would work out these huge cross-overs including all of our various comic strip characters. BB was a sort of cypher for a tour of the soon to be "changed like its never been before" DC Universe. In that light it was rather Hit & Miss.

Max Lord as a sort of great deciever was OK. Fitting the comedy era of the JLI into the current tone of the post IDcrisis made some sort of sence. While this book picked up from IDCrisis it seemed to stumble around with "current continuity".

Wonder Woman stood out as not quite connected to her current story line. The most recent WW issue seemed to connect with the developing Villians United series. Obviously the Blue Beetle/Booster Gold thing was very ham fisted... he's not even wearing the "new costume" he has in JLA:C.

As I read it, I took some of the narration as being stilted by Ted Kord's poor self image. BTW who spilled the tea in the Bat cave? Is that stolen Kyptonite the same 100 lbs that's floating around Gothom City in the current BATMAN comics?

On the one had I have some very mild curiousity about how these series will play out but, there where just too many coincidences. The RANN/THANGAR war kicks in just as BB is having a (rather lame & out of character) heart to brain with Jon Jonnz. The very tenuious connection BB makes with Captain Marvel and company also seemed shoe horned.

I'll skim the 1st issues in the store.
 
 
Jake, Colossus of Clout
16:26 / 31.03.05
Is it appropriate for me to say I hate this book even though I haven't read it?

Why do they have to fuck with the fun characters? Aren't there some castoff grim'n'gritties from the late 80's-early 90's they can assrape and murder? There are great stories being told about Beetle and Max Lord over in JLA:C RIGHT NOW, so the characters must have some mileage left, right? Why is DC determined to piss all over their only funny, goofy characters?
 
 
Aertho
16:44 / 31.03.05
Cause they're not EXTREME, dumbass.

See this.

Instead of building books that are accessible to successive ages - say, average comics reader starts with Superman, then JLA, and falls into the Batbooks, then lapses into JLI silliness and comeradie comedy, then goes smart and integral in Wonder Woman's politics and story-ness, and finally graduating to something substantial like a good Vertigo book or something - the editors probably feel that the only way to appeal to the Mortal Kombat generation is through bloodshed and Fatality! shots.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
17:29 / 31.03.05
Am I the only one who thinks Ted Cord will become the New Specter once that whole day of vengance has been played out?
Whoa, that would kinda fucking rock if he kept his same JLI personality. That could be a really really funny book.
 
 
Aertho
17:34 / 31.03.05
A blue, funny Spectre? DC is not that cool. Not that being blue and funny is cool, or that there's anything wrong with it, either.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
17:48 / 31.03.05
Yeah!! A blue, funny, athiest Spectre! That could be superfunny.
 
 
FinderWolf
18:09 / 31.03.05
Ladies and gentlemen, I give you one of the funniest commentaries I've read thus far on Countdown #1:

http://www.comicscommunity.com/boards/pop/?read=28386
 
 
Aertho
18:38 / 31.03.05
Oh dear. And one of the most crude as well.
 
 
makeitbleed
19:21 / 31.03.05
That commentary was worth a dollar.

That commentary was so good that if they keep it up, I will commit to buying all of the cross-over comics. Well, or reading them in the store.

I really like Greg Rucka's writing. And I kinda like Geoff Johns' stuff. But after Countdown to Infinite Cliche I'm actually thinking twice about buying Wonder Woman, Adventures of Superman and Queen and Country. As for Johns, I'm going to stop staring at JSA and think, "I hear this is good. A lot. But I just don't know if I care. I'll buy a trade someday."

I have to admit, I do feel just like I did in the late 80s. When I decided enough's enough and I stop hoping cape book swould get better again and I would buy only Vertigo books.

"so far the theme of the comic is (a) blue beetle sucks, and (b) batman is an asshole... "

Seriously, all these exciting new events are about heroes looking like self-indulgent, arrogant fuckups.
There's been what? Three HUGE EVENTS showing how much of an asshole Batman is? War Games, Bruce Wayne Murderer and even most of No Man's Land, basically: Batman tries to be a loner but should really make some friends. That's a plot? I know character and plot are inseperable, but not susbtitues for each other.

Now, DC's big plan is to expand this theory to the entire DC Universe? Moral: Don't be a dick.

Or they could tell stories about morality, nobility, overcoming adversity or just having some cool powers.

I know someone over there is saying that the world has changed. The real world is darker now. And dammit, our comics have to reflect that. Yes, but not literally!! I don't have to pay to see that stuff. I can look out the window. Watch the news. It's like a comic about the weather. Today.

How about comics as a means to escape? Or a presentation of what a hopeful world could look like? It's like Grant Morrison said in an iterview about Superman, if he existed in our world, he would be hated. We don't like our heroes in the real world. Too bad Grant said that, some idiot's going to miss the point and greenlight a series about it.

Superman saves some children, from a fire but is accused of touching them inappropriately while doing it. Imagine all the cool rip-offs of Dark Knight Returns talking heads that can be sprinkled throughout the comic. Someone publishing it might actually think it's social satire.
 
 
FinderWolf
20:07 / 31.03.05
That guy always cracks me up (the guy who wrote the commentary I linked to above). And don't let Chad scare you, there's only a paragraph or so of crudity in what is essentially at least 17 paragraphs.

I really don't like the direction the DCU is headed in. Someone commented that this just seemed like a sequel to Identity Crisis, and it sure seems to be just that.

When Crisis 2 kicks in, it better change the tone dramatically.

I think Rucka is a very good writer whose Superman run has been disappointing (I really liked his Detective run years ago, though). (Queen & Country is by far his best work, and its consistently good. Far above anything he's done for DC)

Johns' work at DC has been really good for the most part, full of that New Silver Age vibe. His writing isn't too sophisticated, more like old school fun superhero comics. But he does have some great ideas and strong character moments every now and then. His JSA is really fun, ditto his Flash and Teen Titans. Every once in a while he drifts into big cliches but he's a solid writer.

Judd Winnick...ehhh. He's occasionally got some nice character moments, his Green Lantern run was OK, ditto his Green Arrow run...his Outsiders is his weakest work at DC yet, I think.
 
 
FinderWolf
20:10 / 31.03.05
Heck, Green Lantern: Rebirth has been fun and feels far more epic than Countdown.
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
20:25 / 31.03.05
From what I've been reading (from general interest) this IS the "sequel" to Identity Crisis.

Identity Crisis brought in a few themes and ideas to DC's editors that they wanted to expand upon and play with a bit more.
Hence Infinite Crisis.
Apparently this has all been planned out for a few years now so all the general "Batman has been acting like a dick" scenarios are so obviously on purpose I wonder why people are getting so annoyed by it.
There's been about three years worth of set up for this crossover-mega-event but from what I can gather it's going to rectify a lot of these "problematic" instances of off character behaviour.

Maybe.

I've not read any of these stories, just interviews about them and readers views after their release. But the DCU seems to be heading for something awful, so awful in fact that there will be some kind of Crisis which, once it is over, will rectify a lot of this awfulness.

Far be it from me to say; "wait until you've seen where the company is heading before lambasting them" (especially as I have no intention of buying any of the books, I just like to skirt around on the perifery for fun) but I do think the writers have a specific place they're taking these characters and a few deaths here and there mean NOTHING when you're faced with a mega event titled "Crisis".

Have we learnt nothing from past DC history?
 
 
FinderWolf
20:42 / 31.03.05
well, I did like the first Crisis [on Infinite Earths, that is].
 
 
Mr Tricks
20:55 / 31.03.05
Haven't read JSA in some time... got a kick out of that JSA/JLA graphic novel that came out a while back.

Disapointed in Rucka's writing here... I actually can't even see his influence in the story or its execution.
 
 
diz
23:48 / 31.03.05
I like Johns' Flash and Teen Titans, and JSA is pretty cool.

just to get that out of the way.

this... this... errg.

Batman can be a dick. that's fine, if not ideal. you can do grim and gritty melodrama. that's fine, if not ideal, too.

you can even give Ted Kord a last stand and then have him killed off. i wouldn't, but that's just me.

but making Maxwell Lord, who's just kind of an amusing, petty shmuck, into a WORLD-CLASS SUPERVILLAIN... that's just fucking stupid. he's not a villain. he's just not. he's just a little shady and out to make a buck. that's the FUN of him, and that's what makes him, oh, i don't know, NOT LEX LUTHOR.

since when has Max had this hard-on for exterminating metahumans? that's just way out of left field.

but, instead, we learn that Maxwell Lord was secretly Lex Luthor all along. or the real Lex is busy with his little cabal of supervillains, so they had to turn Maxwell Lord into him as a stand-in. something like that.

fucking horrible. fucking horrible, lazy, stupid writing.

also, J'onn likes Ted. they could have done a scene where the JLA is just really busy and doesn't have time for Ted's issue, where J'onn has to be the bad cop and say "gee, Ted, we love you, but there's this interstellar war going on, and we're just a little strapped for manpower right now. sorry!" instead of having J'onn be a colossal asshole. Batman can be a colossal asshole sometimes - that's kind of his shtick, but J'onn's basically a nice, if somewhat weird, guy. i can't picture the guy on the Watchtower in this book eating Oreos, you know?

and, for another thing, isn't the point of summoning every Justice Leaguer you can find grabbing all the scrubs too? if you were leaving off the scrubs, it wouldn't be an all-League summons, would it?

also, the point that that reviewer made about e-mail is pretty solid.
 
 
diz
00:08 / 01.04.05
oh, and before i forget: what kind of complete moron leaves 100 POUNDS OF KRYPTONITE in an ordinary warehouse without any kind of significant security measures? if Ted Kord is so concerned with being out of favor with the JLA, why didn't he make a bigger point of keeping it safe or giving it to them for safekeeping?

and why was everyone so blase about this? "ehh, someone broke into this warehouse and stole some Kryptonite. that kinda sucks. oh, well. let's go on snubbing Beetle."
 
 
John Octave
00:26 / 01.04.05
There's been about three years worth of set up for this crossover-mega-event but from what I can gather it's going to rectify a lot of these "problematic" instances of off character behaviour [...] But the DCU seems to be heading for something awful, so awful in fact that there will be some kind of Crisis which, once it is over, will rectify a lot of this awfulness.

Y'know, I considered this possibility too. A conspiracy theory of sorts. DC Editorial coming together for coffee and saying "Let's really piss off the fans for a year or so, so that when we put everything right again they'll just eat it up, and the new stuff will look terrific by comparison."

The worst part of it is, I could see that potentially working. But it still seems like such a huge risk that I don't reckon that's the ace up DC's sleeve.

Basically, I think we just have to wait for Animal Man to fix everything.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
01:33 / 01.04.05
This whole thread makes me want to cry.

I'll be buying thirteen copies, just to piss all the X-Fan-posters-in-denial hanging around here.
 
 
Bard: One-Man Humaton Hoedown
02:13 / 01.04.05
Buddy Baker saves the world...again!

I heard a while back that the JLA brainwashed Batman to make him more tame and less evil. This true?

Finally...Maxwell Lord. This is kind of like coming out and saying that Funky Flashman is the new master villain of the DCU...complete with a ressurected zombie Houseroy.

Incidentally, why is Talia part of a supervillain team headed by Lex Luthor? A team which numbers among its members Doctor Psycho (jesus, haven't seen him in years) and Black Adam (who apparently had yet ANOTHER mental breakdown which caused him to quit the JSA and become a supervillain).

I mean...I'd swear the writers get their kicks out of bringing superheroes low. Booster Gold into a near-homeless bum, BB into an antisocial nerd who's losing money and doesn't even realize it...and Superman into an icy asshole who doesn't care about anyone. Because...well, Jonathan and Martha Kent raising their adopted son to believe in truth, justice, and the American Way just doesn't fly anymore.

The Ultimates is actually starting to look good now. This is a sad day.

Incidentally, to whoever posted that picture of BB and BG and the penguin...that was fucking hilarious. It's possibly a nod to Justice League Antartica...or possibly just the fact that BB and BG are kind've wusses, or at least are perceived that way.

Personally, my favourite Booster Gold apeparence was in the JLU episode "The Greatest Story Never Told". I've been known to exclaim, in a cartoonish voice, "Its BOOSTER Gold!!!" whenever the character appears in a book. Then again, I'm a geek, and a very odd one at that.
 
 
gridley
03:14 / 01.04.05
Maybe the new Crisis will split the DC Universe in two. One grim and gritty universe full of rape and murder and darkness. And one gee whiz universe full of good old escapist fun.
 
 
makeitbleed
03:25 / 01.04.05
I get that it's possible that these ideas have been around for three years. But, I really like the character of Batman. I'm fine with pretty much anything you do with the character, if it's interesting.

No Man's Land was very, very risky for DC and it paid off (I think).

It's fine if Batman's a dick, but moving him up and down the inter-personal growth chart over and over again within a few years is either boring or sloppy. He's a loner. He sees he needs people. He's a loner. He sees he needs people. It's boring. Do something with the fact he's more trusting now. Build on it. It's a chance for a 60+ year old character to grow.

I know Grant Morrison is a special, special talent, but he makes it look like it's very possible to make the JLA interesting. Without all the hype, death and rewriting of the past. Just puts a good story out there.

I hope Seven Soldiers can operate unaffected by the Infinite Crisis Crisis.

Also, I'll still buy most everything Greg Rucka writes. Just preordered a book he wrote that doesn't come out till October. If you haven't read his Atticus Kodiak books, I highly recommend them. Incredibly thrilling with great character development and echoes of Hammet and Chandler all over.

One last thought, if publishers hate the burden of continuity so much, why go so far out of their way to justify why there were goofy comics? You know why the characters acted goofy then? Because the books were written with different goals in mind. Don't bring it up. Move forward. No need to excuse it by saying everyone was mentally controlled to be goofballs. It's not like the Simpsons writers are worrying how to explain why the early episodes were drawn so poorly. New show. Didn't have a big budget. Doesn't mean I don't like the new shows. What's next, explaining why the old adventures took place in a four color world?

Imagine it: When we mindwiped Dr. Light, there was a side effect of greater range of value and color depth in our universe. Only now can we see why we have no early memories of gradients ....
 
  

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