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"Countdown to Infinite Crisis" spoiler

 
  

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I'm Rick Jones, bitch
12:31 / 08.04.05
In one of the mini-series they're previewing after this, Jean Loring is tormented and merges with a dark crystal, transporting her elsewhere and turning her into an evil magical supervillan. Just so's you know.
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
12:34 / 08.04.05
Which one? Day Of Vengeance?
 
 
Spaniel
13:41 / 08.04.05
Imagine so. The series is supposed to feature a new Eclipso. Sounds like this fits the bill.
 
 
Spaniel
14:13 / 08.04.05
After reading the Day of Vengence preview I'm happy to report that rape (at least subtextually) has found another home.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
14:26 / 08.04.05
Hmmm, will she get turned into a demoness by a large pair of demons called Nastir'h and S'ym? Because it'll be interesting to see how much of Inferno they feel they can get away with copying (hey, you set up Zatanna as Magik and Atom as Scott Summers and the rest pretty much writes itself).
 
 
Spaniel
14:34 / 08.04.05
Nah, happens in the preview. It's a demonic shard of crystal that does the damage.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
16:01 / 08.04.05
Isn't it always?
 
 
Mario
16:52 / 08.04.05
Said shard of crystal being one of Eclipso's Black Diamonds.

Therefore....
 
 
FinderWolf
17:26 / 08.04.05
Jean Loring as the new Eclipso? Wow, this just keeps getting worse (not as in 'worse for heroes' but as in 'worse for the readers')...
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
17:31 / 08.04.05
Interview about the Day of Vengeance at newsarama... Looks like Zatanna makes it into both of DC's big events this year (albeit in a "whacked on the head" way for this one).

I dunno, doesn't this sound to you like the basic premise (as in loser heroes go for broke against villain they can't possibly defeat) for Seven Soldiers #0 with a greater bias towards magic?
 
 
Spaniel
17:57 / 08.04.05
But done badly. Have you read the preview? Ugh.

I reckon Zatanna's role in Countdown to Ultimate Classic Crisis is gonna be pretty small. Willingham, states that the big guns - including Zatanna - show up briefly early on in the series.
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
18:18 / 08.04.05
For some reason it's the only preview I can't see from DC's website.
Oh and I totally agree that this won't be very good... in comparison to SS that is.
I do have to wonder why they felt the need to change the nature of magic in the DCU, was there anything wrong with it in the first place?
 
 
FinderWolf
18:21 / 08.04.05
Highlights from the interview:

>> NRAMA: From there, was it along the lines of them liking your concept, and giving you a list of characters and ideas to play with, or was it more directed than that?

BW: It was pretty specific, more along the lines of “Here’s how you start out, here are a few things you have to hit along the way, and here’s how it has to end up. Fill in the middle.”

NRAMA: You were okay with that? It seems somewhat top-down storytelling…

BW: Well, considering that by the time they got a hold of me, they wanted it immediately, it was kind of helpful in that I really didn’t have time to worry about where to go with things on my own. This way, I knew the map, and just had to decide how to get there.

--

man, talk about editors writing the story. That's like the review above that I liked saying "COUNTDOWN BY THE COMMITTEE OF EDITORS WHO CREATED THIS SERIES." It's like the Bob Harras Marvel era all over again...
 
 
FinderWolf
18:27 / 08.04.05
also -- note the interviewer's tone in "An Eclipso with boobs is enough to convince the Spectre of that?" I love it... even the interviewer doesn't buy it...

>> NRAMA: So, with all of that, how do things start rolling?

BW: Eclipso and Spectre team up – we know that much. Since the new Eclipso is a female now, she basically seduces the Spectre, and convinces him that if he really wanted to stop evil in the world, he needs to destroy magic. Magic is, basically, breaking the laws of nature – and evil people break the laws. Quit going after individual perpetrators, and just wipe out evil all at once.

NRAMA: And the Spectre buys the argument? An Eclipso with boobs is enough to convince him of that?

BW: Well, consider that the Spectre is a little screwed up right because he’s coming off a weird trip with a human host, and is now without a human host for the first time in a long while. Without that guidance, that conscience, he’s a little wigged out, so that when someone makes what may or may not be a good argument about destroying a whole lot of evil, he falls for it.

BW: The whole idea is that, in the DCU, the Spectre is the one character you don’t want coming after you. At some point in the story, someone actually lays it all out, and says, “If the Spectre wants you dead, you’re dead.” If you know he’s gunning for you, the absolute best you can do is get your affairs in order, and that’s it.
------------------------------------------
groan....
 
 
Aertho
18:41 / 08.04.05
I love that Finderwolf has lost his patience with the man.
 
 
Triplets
18:52 / 08.04.05
Hang on, how can you seduce a Spectre without the human element? Surely, he's just a big floating smock fulla asexual spirit energies when not-bonded?
 
 
Aertho
19:32 / 08.04.05
As an agent of the Lord Our God, The Spectre is a Man, as is He who is Our God, as well as He who is the Lord Our God. All that is Evil is female. See: (new) Eclipso. Foolish voids!
 
 
Spaniel
20:17 / 08.04.05
Yeah, an evil woman who enjoys being raped.
 
 
Mario
20:24 / 08.04.05
As I said over at Newsarama (where I'll no doubt be flamed for it) this is the EXACT SAME setup as the Sentinels Of Magic, last seen in "Day of Judgement" fighting an evil spirit who had corrupted a hostless Spectre.

Except THERE, they actually bothered to read the Ostrander run, and had control of the one weapon that could defeat the Spectre. Here, we have an alcoholic chimpanzee, because depression is kewl.

And if Willingham turns Blue Devil into a Hellboy clone, I'll scream.
 
 
Spaniel
08:06 / 09.04.05
Blue Devil screams pop fun, not sullen bouncer.

That were a cerazy comic.
 
 
Triplets
08:08 / 09.04.05
Why the hellboy are you people buying this shit?
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
10:02 / 09.04.05
No-one's buying it yet Ms Triplets, it's not out!
We are however reading a dire interview that should convince anyone NOT to pick it up whn it does come out.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
10:54 / 09.04.05
Is the secret supervillain behind 'Infinite Crisis over Infinite Time Throughout Every Infinite Universe Inifnitely' just going to be revealed to be Dave Sim then? He'll get all the superheroes to smack the backsides of all the superheroines until Blue Beetle comes back to life, because he's a man, but not Sue Dibny, because she's a void and Elasticbloke's better off without her.
 
 
Panic
12:50 / 09.04.05
Detective Chimp is an alkie?

The Spectre gettin' his freak on?

Oh, DC...so so sad...
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
13:01 / 09.04.05
Oh for fuck's sake, it doesn't look that bad...

Aside: Zatana #1 has a joke about superhuman sexual molestation/rape. Is it somehow more noble to make jokes about rape, as opposed to showing the consequences? Double standard?
 
 
Mario
13:32 / 09.04.05
I wouldn't call that line in Zatanna #1 "a joke". It was an honest comment made during a group therapy session.
 
 
The Falcon
13:50 / 09.04.05
Yeah, but for the reader it's a joke, ya kno. Actually, Zee was pretty glib about it.

I laughed. I mean, Starro's porn collection? S'funny.

Jacqui didn't seem too damaged. I liked her better in that book.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
16:25 / 09.04.05
She's an attention seeker, and I think we were meant to assume she was exaggerating the 'molesatation' thing. Every other instance involving her has her spewing a 'been there done that' anecdote.
Also: Identity Crisis didn't show the consequences of rape really, did it? It used it totally unnecessarily in order to show quite how evil Dr Light was. If by 'consequences' you mean a load of men in spandex looking po-faced, however, you may be right.
 
 
Aertho
16:55 / 09.04.05
Jacqi's line says she was "molested/raped the night prior to her decision to start her career as a superheroine." I immediately drew the connection between that cause and effect scenario and Grant's oratories on alien rape and satan worshipping rituals. Seems obvious to me that Jacqi was never "raped" -but making it up for attention, or perhaps believed she was raped, when in fact she was having a nervous breakdown or something.
 
 
Benny the Ball
21:52 / 09.04.05
I like Electric Bogaloo.

Haven't read Zatana yet, and still smarting from the death of BB.

I guess the problem was that IC was sold as a reshape of DCU, but everyone gives GM free reign to run with things, IC was supposed to stick to a set out idea, but failed as it was badly written and destroyed character for the sake of story. There is possibly some double standard, but IC's rape was graphic and symbolically the rape of a fun character by a crap villian (screams for the sake of it), Zatana is in many ways the link between vertigo and DCU, so more leeway given, she is an adult character in a comic book world or something.

Did I mention that BB is my favourite character ever?

And that I am really pissed of with Infinite Crisis?
 
 
matsya
01:33 / 10.04.05
Okay, here's an Identity Crisis curly one: if it's lobotomies that explain all the goofy villains in the 60s and 70s, what the fuck explains the retarded behaviour of the HEROES? In all those old stories they're trying to retcon, the good guys are just as dumb as the villains (of course they are, they're written by the same people). So are they going to explain batman dressing a dog up in a mask as a result of his lobotomy? Did they lobotomise Metamorpho as well, which is why he was so annoying and useless in his 1960s comics? Is it going to be revealed that, rather than a fun old time everyone was having running around foiling bank robberies and shit, the silver age was one huge orgy of mutual lobotomising?

Cos that's so realistic, ya know. Makes much more sense than aliens and underwater kingdoms and magic ray guns.

m.
 
 
SiliconDream
01:52 / 10.04.05
BW: The whole idea is that, in the DCU, the Spectre is the one character you don’t want coming after you. At some point in the story, someone actually lays it all out, and says, “If the Spectre wants you dead, you’re dead.” If you know he’s gunning for you, the absolute best you can do is get your affairs in order, and that’s it.

Well dang, don't just come out and tell us that. Otherwise we might start to think that the idea of mortals somehow preventing a homicidal Spectre from massacring all the magicians is, well, stupid.

Okay, here's an Identity Crisis curly one: if it's lobotomies that explain all the goofy villains in the 60s and 70s, what the fuck explains the retarded behaviour of the HEROES? In all those old stories they're trying to retcon, the good guys are just as dumb as the villains (of course they are, they're written by the same people).

Dunno about the 60s and 70s, but they are in fact retconning the goofiness of the Giffen Justice League by explaining that Maxwell Lord was telepathically loserizing them all along. So there!
 
 
fluid_state
06:22 / 10.04.05
Thanks for yet another thread of pure comedy gold. Only in comics, baby. And the occasional daytime soap.

For my money, JLA's "Tower of Babel" and the subsequent fallout dealt with far more "adult" issues than any of this "Crisis" nonsense. Complexities of trust in dangerous working relationships and a juxtaposition of personal feelings therein seems so much more mature than 20 issues saying "good people do evil things so they can go on being good, and evil people are reeeealy evil, so you can tell the difference." It's a little disheartening to think that the people in charge of this fiasco could be quite so embarrassed of the history of their imaginary characters.
 
 
matsya
06:46 / 10.04.05
D'ya think Ted Kord'll be the new Spectre?

Something in GL Rebirth four stuck out - the spectre saying "another man will be murdered &c"


m.
 
 
This Sunday
08:33 / 10.04.05
Just sat and reread all of Morrison's 'The Filth' and 'Animal Man' back to back (which definitely had a solid, tactile effect, yes), and there isn't one thing not critiqued between them, that isn't contained in the whole Countdown to Prelude to Post Ultimasturbatory Identinfinity Crises and also, just plain wrongheaded. I've got no problem with rape in fiction, no problem without outright degradation and horrible bodily decimation and corruption in fiction - the 'Ichi, the Killer' manga makes me smile as it turns my stomach - but really, what use is the rape and murder of Sue Dibny? Was it entertaining? Not to me. Did it have some significant, well-thought-out thematic relevance that had to be told? Can't find one. Was it mature? Well, it stomped its feet and whined loudly about its maturity, so...
What's with the growing likelihood that every woman - except Black Canary - must be raped? Other than the gay sungod of 'The Authority', no guys seem to get raped. It's my biggest irritation in comics at the moment, and mostly I'm eyeing a certain beardy Moore, here, who - even though the Pollyanna bit in LoEG makes me laugh - does seem to fall back on this idea that being raped is a character trait. Is being kicked in the head a character trait?
And it's always done in the most salacious manner, with a thin overcoat of apologetic sympathy. That's just annoying, every time I crack a book and there's that sexual menace and punishment meme going on.
But, really, the thing that bugs me is this: In the scale of things, surely there's so much worse the villainy scoundrels could be doing, yeah? Peeling people, dropping laundry detergent in their eyes and stuffing penny nails down throats, disintegration rays or even the old razorblade-dildo. Raping random character X and stuffing her in a fridge just doesn't cut it after it's used, oh, the billionth time in fiction this decade. Turn her blue, give her an elephant head, and threaten to throw her into the sun.
I'm talking pretty much purely long underwear comics, here. Something more *ground level* isn't going to operate necessarily on that kind of villainesque one-upmanship. Ellis managed to combine them nicely in the 'Authority/Planetary' oneshot. 'Someone to have sex with while I murder the world,' and such. One or the other isn't entirely impressive, but the combination sets it apart.
And that's not even getting to the 'by committee' atmosphere of 'Countdown...' I don't get Bat-Asshole as anything but an affected persona to impress the rubes, I don't think everybody's favorite Oreo addict is so bad at the interpersonal relations stuff, and how on earth is the best thing can be done with Blue - still got the girdle - Beetle to shoot him in the head?
Seriously, they should have just raped and murdered Elastic Man. The Atom's ex should have raped and murdered Elastic Man. In front of Batman, who seeks out the JLA to have them wipe it from his memory. Painted by Alex Ross. With a series of lithos and alternate covers and tangential cross-overs all through the publishing line. And everyone who paid for it, and kept paying for it, would get exactly what they deserve.
I'm going to have to finish Countdown, at some point in life, for my sins. I just know it.
 
  

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