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7 Soldiers: Guardian

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Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

23:42 / 11.09.05

That'd make sense, Mario; we've never seen evidence before this issue - other than, perhaps, Zatanna summoning Gwydion - that the Sheeda need to be summoned. The transformation of Spyder was fairly Outer Church, no reason the Unknowns would be any nicer getting the right Newsboys ready to set up the Seven.

The Newsboy Army of Nowhere Street was going nowhere until the Time Tailor stepped in and made them sacrifice something - their innocence, love, childhood adventures. They were exposed to sex, brutality, and transformed. Baby Brain "grew up" in his own way. It's unfortunate that the result was us - the audience - not getting more exposure to characters like Suzi, who didn't get to do very much in the end. I'm hoping that Lil Hollywood does show up in some fashion.

I keep seeing the Bulleteer meeting Hollywood and being mentored by her in some fashion - perhaps like Sandra Knight and Dee Taylor's Phantom Ladies.

23:43 / 11.09.05

Almost like vaccinating our reality with a weaker strain, so we'll develop antibodies...that is to say, Soldiers.

Then we've got another cell of Invisibles, agents of The Filth, and Phoenixes.

As much as I'm a proponent of the intellectual growth and development theory, I'm getttin bored with the constant medical emergencies in this universe and that. Obvious it won't be implicit, the whole retrovirus thang, but we see it, and there it is.

But yeah, anybody who didn't think the TTT/SUMOSS was the DCU's Blind Chessman/John A Dreams isn't all here. So far, the TTT has only been in flashback, correct? And the SUMOSS are in contemporary times? So Evil, then Good?

23:51 / 11.09.05

Morrison's said that the Seven Unknown Men are all actual DC characters. So the baseless-speculation-reflex may now go wild on the front of who the Time Tailor actually is.

Interested in the notion that the Time Tailor isn't necessarily evil, that he may have brought the Sheeda to the DCU under the impression that it was 'for its own good', to be tested and harrowed for the good of mankind. But he gleefully victimizes children, so he can't be too awesome a guy...

I wonder at the physical appearance of the Seven Unknown Men, old boy's club with their collars, ties, and tiepins. Are they all old, bald, men from DC's history, or are they in 'suits' just to look that way, ie., just drawn that way, made to look that way to people's perceptions in the DCU? I get baseless feelings that people like Sargon the Sorceror and the Phantom Stranger are in the 7UM.

00:57 / 12.09.05

Well, Sargon showed up recently in the latest Swamp Thing as something of a prick, an evil prick.

Phantom Stranger of course showed up in Zatanna in a fairly humorous way, certainly not with the gravitas that you would expect from the Unknown men.

So, bets on the Seven Unknown Men? I think the greatest thing would be if it were DC authors that had appeared in comic books (a la Morrison in Animal Man). Didn't someone once joke that Morrison was technically trademarked and property of DC?

01:11 / 12.09.05

I'd mentioned DCU's property upthread, yes, but it was Ostrander.

In Suicide Squad #58 (the War of the Gods issue), there is a character called The Writer who apparently meets his death in this issue. The Writer, at least to me, bore a resemblance to Grant Morrison's depiction of himself in Animal Man. Is The Writer Grant Morrison? If so how did John Ostrander get the rights to not only use him, but to kill him off? Also, are Animal Man & this issue of S.S. the only places we can find The Writer? I need more, MORE I TELL YOU. I need a Writer mini series!!!!!

Wow, that's as deep a question as we've ever had here.

The Writer is Grant Morrison. When Animal Man met The Writer he met Grant Morrison. However that's also the point he stopped being Grant Morrison. Once he wrote himself into Animal Man he became part of continuity and couldn't get out of the comics. Thus Grant and The Writer ceased being one and the same. So when he appeared in Suicide Squad he was more "The Writer" and less "Grant Morrison."

How did Ostrander get to use the character? Well Grant didn't own him, DC did (just ask Carmine Infantino.) The Writer was a character like any other. DC can do what they want with them. Thus he was used and killed off.

I don't have any other appearances by The Writer, but if comics by Grant Morrison that play with "the Fourth Wall" I'd suggest that you track down Flex Mentallo. It's a trippy read but it works.

Who's Carmine Infantino?

01:28 / 12.09.05

Nice little summation of Infantino's contribution to comics here.

04:22 / 12.09.05

just finished the comic [man, what a great 'let's do this' sequence there in the ending] - and reading this whole thread. [top] hats off to you and Grant, Cameron. Baby Brains rules so much, he looks great when 'young' and could give Reed Richards a run for his money.

wonderful work, my 7S favourite mini so far. we NEED more Guardian. [well, I know I do]

I love how first impressions on #3 were cold here but when #4 came people started seeing it as part of the whole "hologram" thing of showing macro concepts in micro designs. the whole theme park allegory was brilliant and the visual-narrative execution, with the jumping back and forth of different moody scenes, very impressive.

can't really add much to all the great crazy theories posted here other than say you guys stayed TOO much in the rape-killing topic. but mention that #4 seemed like the closest thing to WATCHMEN Grant has ever done - structure-wise too. heartbraking indeed.

hey, how was Larry Marcus connected to Ed the Brain? 8th Soldier, as someone mentioned? hmmmmm...

also: Sheeda. judging from the most recent Morrison interviews I'd risk saying they're Humanity from the future, colonizing our timeframe, right from Camelot to our Present.

and I wonder is, by the time 7S #1 is solicited, DC won't announce issues 2 and 3...

11:22 / 12.09.05

Larry Marcus is El Mar...one of the Newsboy Army auxiliaries.

The idea that the SUMOSS are actually creators that have appeared in comic books reminded me of something.

Ever hear of the Nine Old Men?

11:42 / 12.09.05

but this one was the real stormer. haven't enjoyed a single-issue like this in a long long time. just a horror story with cartoon kids and not much gets better than that. it's not the throwback to the golden age invisibles i like though, it's the single-issue reheat of millar's run on the authority, where ed=krigstein and ttt = the doctor who uses time travel to molest the young engineer. but done proper. when my evil future self attacks, jake jordan's the hero i want looking after me.

Regrettable Juvenilia

11:50 / 12.09.05

He's my new favourite superhero.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

12:46 / 14.09.05

At the risk of bringing up something that's being dealt with in the Zatanna comic (lack of time atm means I'm tending to read these threads after the mini has been out), so far everyone seems to be picked ore involved with someone who ties in with the Seven Men of Slaughter Swamp, with Guardian it's via being involved with the Newsboy Army and their visit. But Zatanna seems to have got herself involved rather than being made involved by someone else. Wonder if that matters...?

Keith, like a scientist

13:20 / 14.09.05

Well, there is the Misty + Sheeda connection.

13:27 / 14.09.05

I was thinking this too. Ed pretty much says the Seven Soldiers are being assembled and manipulated into fighting the Sheeda. But Ystin fell into Hollywood, and Zatanna was found by Misty, and had her adventures on a rather spontaneous road trip. Klarion didn't even have direction to go upworld. He just kinda went.

Who could be manipulating to this degree? Unless it's a combination of roles, not individuals. Guardian's been groomed to be the superhero infantryman, the oppression of the submissionaries and the Book of Shadows frustrates a Witchperson to go exploring upworld every once in a while. I've no idea what the manipualting factors might be in the case of Ystin and Zatanna.

13:43 / 14.09.05

What, someone couldn't have manipulated Castle Revolving (or Justin) enough to get him to come to LA? Ali Ka-Zoom perhaps?

13:47 / 14.09.05

Zatanna's direct involvement with the Sheeda is the result of Ali Ka-Zoom bringing her to Don Vincenzo's house. There's your manipulation. But who is to say that Misty seeking her out isn't also the result of maybe 7UM manipulation.

15:55 / 14.09.05

Ali K is the one who recruits Justin(e), in SK#2. He tells him, "An age of darkness needs a shining knight. But you won't have to fight alone." Ali K also gave Justin(e) hir new clothes before getting on that ghost bus and taking off to see Zatanna. As for Klarion, there's not much to go on now to directly connect his involvement, but there is still one more issue to go and something is sure to happen there. I think the degree of manipulation in gathering the 7 wavers between long-ago-chosen-&-planned (Jake + Zatanna) and haphazard-luck-let's see-who-comes-our way (Justin(e) + Klarion). Carefull consideration plus intuitive spontaneity.

16:53 / 14.09.05

Or of course, the budding consciousness of the DC universe is doing it.

17:33 / 14.09.05

Let's hope Misty will use the Time Sewing Machine to spin herself some red hair. THEN she might be able to save the DCU.

17:52 / 14.09.05

We're forgetting Melmoth. Melmoth instructed Badde to bring Klarion up. Don't have it in front of me, but didn't Melmoth want a witch-boy? All the Leviathan kids, while intended to become Deviants and then go to Mars, weren't good enough for Melmoth. I remember something along the lines of "when are we going to get that special child you promised?"

Melmoth is Gloriana's estranged (ex)husband. I'm sure he wants to stick it to the Sheeda. By bringing Klarion up, he gets his hero. And he finds passage to Limbo Town so he can plunder their resources, like he's doing on Mars (and like the Sheeda do to civilizations). It's win-win.

Not saying he's a force of good, but he might be a sworn enemy of the Sheeda after his split-up with Gloriana. I might go so far as to say she tried to have him killed. She was very shocked and upset when she found out "Dark Melmoth is alive?!?"

18:24 / 14.09.05

Yes but Melmoth is not in League with either the seven bald mystery men or Ed Starsgard (and whoever else Ed was working with - Ali was a cohort, maybe Vigilante from 7S#0 too, but who else?). Some of their goals (like repelling the Sheeda) and chosen players (like Klarion) may intersect, but their agendas are vastly different. Actually, this makes me wonder - how many different teams are there currently active on this game board?...

-There's the 7 Mystery Men from Slaughter Swamp, possibly including the TTT
-The 7 soldiers they form in 7S #0, minus the dead, departed, & assimilated
-Ed Starsgard/Baby Brain + Ali K and whoever else
-The Seven Soldiers of Victory featured in the minis we're all reading
-The Sheeda army
-Melmoth and his crew

Any others? Who is in league with who? And what does everybody want?

21:32 / 14.09.05

Well, this is a Morrison comic, so it's entirely possible that there's only one side....

22:17 / 14.09.05

THe SHeeda are the orchestrating factor for every single soldier. The Sheeda are the only ones who could actually be responsible for putting the team together, whether consciously, for some unknown end, or under the influence of the Seven Unknown Men. I've no idea why, but look at it.

Shining Knight: Castle Revolving dumped Justin into modern day LA. It was responsible, the living SHeeda home.

Guardian: The SHeeda and the Time Tailor destroyed the egos and lives of the Newsboy Army, leading Ed to make the Guardian newspaper and then the superhero.

Zatanna: Misty, the Sheeda princess, finds Zatanna and starts her journey.

Klarion: The residents of Limbo Town are crossbred human-Sheeda who went underground in shame of their 'alien contact' secret, as Melmoth sort of reveals in Klarion #3. So Limbo Town is a Sheeda creation, indirectly. I also think Melmoth might be the one who was chained in the sewers, for the crime of breeding with humans, but it's just a wild speculation.

I think Ed Starsgard has some sort of knowledge of the workings of the 7 Unknown Men, if not actually knowledge of who they are. Even Spyder had heard of them, as secret chiefs plotting the rise and fall of nations.

But there seems to be a weird thread through this to the effect that the only people who could have orchestrated the 7 Soldiers and their circumstances are the Sheeda themselves - or someone influencing/controlling them, like the 7UM/Time Tailor/Zor, whatever.

Even going back a bit, they're directly responsible for leading the original 7 Soldiers on a hunt for the Buffalo Spider, and thus the ones from 7S#0 as well. Seemingly for sport, but I think there may be more to it.

It lends some credence to the notion that the Sheeda were brought to the 'present' DCU to serve some purpose, but then got out of hand.

23:41 / 14.09.05

In that case, it could be like Sandman, Dream setting up his own destruction because of his own inability to change. Perhaps the function of the Sheeda is destruction, even when they do not want to.

The Natural Way

07:46 / 15.09.05

The SUM 'conscripted' the soldiers. They're responsible for binding the coincidences together - the web of events. Sort it out, people.

21:40 / 15.09.05

Yes, and seemingly did so to fight the Sheeda. But it seems possible, if not likely, that they're manipulating the SHeeda into creating the Soldiers for them.

So who's pulling who's strings, that's a question I'm interested in.

23:12 / 15.09.05

another thought poped up while re-reading 7S:#0.

considering that the 7UM left behind the Time sewing machine when evacuating the old gold shed, what if the TTT found it afterwards (there were sheeda swarming all around at that point) and used it to effect the newboy army some 30+ year prior. Time DOES get soft in that place and it might explain how it was the Sheeda (along with TTT) have that item in a time period before the 7UM appariently leave it behind.
Among the artifacts the 7UM took with them I did not notice any top-hats either.

01:19 / 16.09.05

Hmm. good idea, Tricks, but I think that's convoluting the thing. I'm sure it's a lot more elegant and simpler than that.

11:27 / 16.09.05

the TTT said something about why he broiught the sheedaa "across" to get rid of groups tike them "the nnewsboy army" right?(haven't got it i front of me.)

Could the harrowing that happeneind to them be the change from one style or age of comic book to the other?
The 7UM could be the continuum cleaners , preparing each age for the next, hence innocent newsboy army eliminated through introduction to hard reality to make way for a more "realistic " DCU?

11:56 / 16.09.05

Which riffs on Planetary's motif that for each age to come about, the new heroes have to murder the old ones.

In that sense the Sheeda are like Anti-Monitorites, destroying elements of character and continuity from within rather than eating entire universes. Surgically? As Chad said, that might be straying too close to a "Medical Crisis in Universe B!!!".

11:57 / 16.09.05

The 7UM could be the continuum cleaners , preparing each age for the next, hence innocent newsboy army eliminated through introduction to hard reality to make way for a more "realistic " DCU?

Well yeah, that's the subtext.

Optimistic/fantastic Gold and Silver Ages brought into the dark sick world of the "Modern" Age, and found unprepared for it. The Dark Knight Returned to kill Krypto the Super-Pup. Now we've got heroes wallowing in "Modern Age" troubles - homelessness, despair, hubris, boredom, materialism, loneliness, rage... and discovering a new Age through madcap adventure.

The Natural Way

14:48 / 22.09.05

The old bloke, BTW, is wearing exactly the same clothes as the TTT. They're clearly the same guy. @ the mo', as I mentioned above, I'm presuming the TTT's remote controlled by the SUM - using his abilities to carve out tailor made futures for their soldiers. I presume the TTT we see in Guardian 4 is simply acting autonomously. But maybe he's just an all purpose avatar and someone else is pulling the strings.

Regrettable Juvenilia

07:38 / 23.09.05

The old bloke, BTW, is wearing exactly the same clothes as the TTT.

Wait, which old bloke?

The Natural Way

10:06 / 23.09.05

in 7S 0. The guy @ the beginning. Same stripey tie thing.

11:35 / 23.09.05

wedding, all of the 7 Unknown Men dress that way. They look identical.

11:37 / 23.09.05

TRUTH!

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