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7 Soldiers: Guardian

 
  

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Triplets
15:43 / 11.09.05
"Sink" also brings into mind the Kirbytech sink-suited siblings of Galactus from Marvel Boy.
 
 
Quimper
16:24 / 11.09.05
Think it's very interesting that in 7S0, when I, Sypder is getting his makeover, one of the 7 Unknown Men says,

"You work for the *Seven Unknown Men* now and we'll have to...well...*tailor* you for the job.

Are they all Time Tailors? And is the Terrible Time Tailor the terrible one? Is there also an Apathetic Time Tailor, and Optimistic Time Tailor, a Frustrated Time Tailor?
 
 
Aertho
16:29 / 11.09.05
If anybody's got free time, you could try to match up the behavior of each of the Seven Unknown's speech bubbles. One's green, one's yellow, one's lavender... I tried making them match Disney Dwarf behavior, but that was bogus.

I don't think the Tailor is one of them, but possibly ALL of them.
 
 
Quimper
17:04 / 11.09.05
The one who seems like it could be TTT (if they are indeed individuals with distinct personas) is he who says "Another schmuck with a bow and arrows? That's it?" solely bc he seemed like the biggest dick.
 
 
Triplets
17:13 / 11.09.05
Well, if it goes that one of the seven is always going to betray the others, it's stands to reason that this is happening from the top down, from author to character. I think we're looking at a Terrible Time Traitor here.
 
 
CameronStewart
17:24 / 11.09.05
>>>but it seems an over-reading to imagine that Captain 7 is depicted as older in that frame than the one before.<<<

It's not an over-reading at all, it's quite deliberate. He is meant to look subtly older in that last square.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
17:35 / 11.09.05
And who the fuck are you to say what the artist intended!?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
17:38 / 11.09.05
I jest!

Cameron -- if Captain 7 is slightly older, then, and yet still apparently in the same cabin with the Sheeda still buzzing in the background (ie. he isn't yet in the scene where they beat him into the cabinet) are we simply not meant to treat this page as subject to straight chronology?

Is time just playing tricks on us, and them?
 
 
Billuccho!
17:58 / 11.09.05
Well, Baby Brain says it was unhinged from time *and* space, so clearly, they could be anywhere and anywhen all at once. This explains the clothes and the box and everything. As to what happened immediately *afterwards,* well, I guess we'll have to wait and see, though chances are Grant will just leave us hanging on that one. Doesn't really *need* to be fully explained. If one thinks abstractly enough, it'll make sense in the end.

But if Miracle Mesa, as Brain says, was *also* unhinged from space and time, that makes me wonder about just what we were seeing in 7S #0.

And El Mar--- the secret eighth member of the Newsboy Army...!
 
 
Triplets
18:00 / 11.09.05
Kovacs, we're told that the swamp and the shack are places where time and space go soft, we're also dealing with the TTT who - from what we know - may not be subject to the tyranny of chronological order and who has access to a time-manipulating device in the form of the sewing machine. I think it's safe to say that, in that scene, chronology is pretty much an inflatable boxing clown.
 
 
Billuccho!
18:01 / 11.09.05
Also--- Brain says that he and Larry *gave* Jake his origin. How far does this extend backwards? They didn't set up the poor guy to shoot that kid, did they? I'm presuming not, but it opens up interesting possibilities of just how far their schemes go back.

And it seems like their are forces beyond the Seven Unknown Men that are steering these new Seven Soldiers together... Baby Brains clearly understands what's going on behind the scenes, and I'd wager Ali was in on it as well, what with bringing Ystin and Zatanna into the game... Hmm.
 
 
Aertho
18:21 / 11.09.05
How were any of the Original Newsboys to know Ystin would fall at the right time? And in Hollywood? Ali, as we've seen, is a ghost.

If anything, Ed's comments make me wonder if the Seven Soldiers of Today aren't the ones we're reading about. That Ed may be engineering the TRUE Seven or the Misdirection Seven. And Guardian is one member of both. We've already assumed Misty may step up. What if it's one of the Deviants, or Melmoth that step up from Klarion's book? Plenty awaits.
 
 
Ganesh
19:03 / 11.09.05
If the scene with the baseball bat takes place after the episode in the Slaughter Swamp hut, why's Ali wearing his top hat? The TTT's swiped it, hasn't he? Two hats?

It seems to me that George is aiming for a degree of disjunction here, in terms of timing and continuity. It's one of his trademarks, used to particularly trippy deja vu effect in those parts of The Invisibles with Dane and the Hand of Glory. The fact that what goes on between panels is ambiguous adds to the sense of temporal dislocation.
 
 
CameronStewart
19:06 / 11.09.05
>>>Cameron -- if Captain 7 is slightly older, then, and yet still apparently in the same cabin with the Sheeda still buzzing in the background (ie. he isn't yet in the scene where they beat him into the cabinet) are we simply not meant to treat this page as subject to straight chronology?<<<

The 7 little head-shot squares are meant to show most of the Newsboys in their, for lack of a better term, ideal state - smiling, happy, outside of the narrative, oblivious of their terrible fates. They're not meant to be shots of the gang at that moment in the cabin - for example, you'll notice that Lil Hollywood is wearing an explorer's outfit with pith helmet when they arrive at the cabin, but not in her little square, and Baby Brains' little square depicts him reading Lacan (though the book is obscured by the caption), which he obviously didn't bring with him to the swamp. Grant asked for the two last squares to depict Captain 7, the first showing him younger, but looking off-panel with unease, and the second, final square to be a return to the cabin, where we see Cap slightly, subtly older.

Does that make sense?
 
 
CameronStewart
19:12 / 11.09.05
Also, though it doesnt specifically say one way or the other in the script, I don't think the panel of Cap's "execution" is meant to take place in the cabin in the swamp - he's dressed in his college clothes, indicating that it happens later, and that panel is a flash-forward. The kids may be experiencing the perception of the event simultaneously but chronologically speaking it happens later.

Again, does this make sense? I'm hung over today.
 
 
Ganesh
19:17 / 11.09.05
It does make sense, Cameron, assuming Ali's bought himself a new hat.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
19:39 / 11.09.05
I think that page gives all of us the basic idea of what's going on -- identities being framed and forced, whether retrospectively or not -- events happening with nightmarish inevitability, future seeming to slam in immediately after the prediction because it's now doomed to take place -- the gang members losing their innocence, slipping out of childhood stability into adolescent fluidity.

Its unsettling power lies partly in the fact that it's all hard to pin down precisely. Trying to pin it down (as I did myself) perhaps defeats the point a bit.

It's a great page: in fact, the best page of 7S so far I think.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
20:00 / 11.09.05
cameron, i think that all makes sense. that's basically how i read the page. I never thought it was taking place in that moment, just that they were experiencing it...I read that they squares were all non-shack images, except for the last one, which is showing 7's reaction to events he is experiencing.

my confusion lies in the idea that Captain 7 seemingly murdered Suzi...which I can't quite reconcile. However...I'm guessing that this is an event that will be revealed and expanded upon elsewhere in the overall series.
 
 
Ganesh
20:01 / 11.09.05
Well, we're told Captain 7 is a "murderer" and Suzi's "dead at 14", but it doesn't automatically follow that he murdered her...
 
 
Aertho
20:07 / 11.09.05
Yeah, he coulda fed Millions rat poison.

You Bastard!!!
 
 
Ganesh
20:17 / 11.09.05
Or, y'know, murdered someone outwith the Newsboy Army! S'possible.
 
 
Aertho
20:23 / 11.09.05
Duh Nesh. Jes Playin. But I doubt it.

Cap killed Suzi. Either by Nine Month Womb Burster, or Laci Peterson Syndrome.
 
 
Mario
20:34 / 11.09.05
OK, now I think I get it.

Given the limited view the Tailor shows them (as I've mentioned upthread) we need to look at what Captain 7 did objectively.

Let's assume that the relationship was consensual. He'd _still_ be a child molester. And if Suzi died in childbirth (a 14-year old in the mid- to late-40's? Not improbable), then technically it's his fault. He'd be a murderer. And if a bunch of kids thought that (especially after their experience with the Tailor) they could easily decide he needed punishment.

Of course, it's entirely possible he actually murdered someone...just not necessary.

And like I said before...Ali was wearing a different hat as a member of the Army. Black band, not red.
 
 
Ganesh
20:40 / 11.09.05
Ah, okay. Ali's hat = black band, Zatanna's hat (formerly owned by the ozone-smelling bloke looking for her books) = red band? Does that then mean the TTT isn't the ozone-smelling guy?

(Thinking I should be rereading these...)
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
20:57 / 11.09.05
i really don't buy the Die in Childbirth = Technical Murderer theory. I don't think any court would really consider someone a murderer if the mother died in childbirth.

molester? sure. rapist? sure.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
21:04 / 11.09.05
Yes, but he's not being tried in a court, he's being punished by a bunch of kids with overactive hormones who were deeply close to Suzi and being manipulated. "Technically" a murder doesn't neccessarily have anything to do with something that, say, L'il Hollywood might scream manically through the confusion of temporal distortion and spiritual manipulation.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
21:11 / 11.09.05
I don't think a 17 year-old having sex with a 14 year-old would generally be called a child-molester now, to be honest. I think that's the kind of relationship peers might accept and approve, and parents shruggingly resign themselves to. Of course it's illegal, but I can't imagine a gang of teenagers being outraged that the older fit lad in their group is shagging a girl 2 years under the age of legal consent.

This is about as relevant as the fact that it wouldn't technically be murder, though... the gang's punishment of Captain 7 is bound up with jealousy, grief and bitterness, not decided in a cold, rational court of law.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
21:19 / 11.09.05
hmm...I wasn't looking at it from that angle. That makes sense...i can see the kids blaming him for her dying, then...
 
 
Mario
21:43 / 11.09.05
The point is _which_ girl. The most relevant line in the issue may be "Wow. Machines love her too." I get the feeling that Suzi was loved by _all_ the Army. But only in the platonic sense.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
22:06 / 11.09.05
As much as all the Time Tailor/Newsboy Army stuff is as fantastic and unsettling as everyone has already said, it's the final pages of this issue that really get me. Particularly that panel with Jake on the phone and the Sheeda outside the window: something about their silence is just really menacing, and I wonder if that's intentional. A sense of how nasty the Sheeda are has really been building and building, reaching its peak with this issue, and here they are in New York and who's going to stop them? An ex-cop with no superpowers, just a shield and a stick. Impossible odds, stubborn heroism. YESSSSSSS.

In some ways Jake Jordan would be the most appropriate soldier to die saving the world - he's just so goddamn noble! - but I find myself really hoping he doesn't.

My only complaint is that this a hell of a cliffhanger to leave us with until April 2006, if indeed that is the case. It's quite possible that this isn't the case, but I don't quite know how that will work in terms of the other series... Is the Sheeda's arrival in New York part of a full-on final assault on Earth, or are they just their for Melmouth and Ed? If it's the later, I suppose we could find Bulleteer or Mr Miracle stumbling upon the aftermath of this fight, but where would Jake be by that point?

At the moment, it's looking like Morrison will have an insane amount to tie up in the final bookend. I'm not saying it's beyond him, although he's sort of left himself more than he could tie up before. I don't want to be cynical, though: at this point, Seven Soldier is shaping up to be career-best stuff, IMHO.

Couple of thoughts on the Time Tailor: in Zatanna #3, Ali tells Zatanna that her best hope lies with the Seven Unknown Men of Slaughter Swamp. Since he's met the Time Tailor in Slaughter Swamp, and presumably knows what the Seven Unknown Men look like, can the Tailor really be a traitor? That doesn't quite fit - but nor does the Seven Unknown Men being evil, unless Ali's in on it too. And yet the Time Tailor's nastiness makes a lot more sense of I, Spyder's treachery, if indeed Spyder was a traitor proper and not just turned by the Sheeda after the battle, a la Galahad. And what are we to make of the fact that the Sheeda swarming around the Time Tailor's machine looks just what appeared to be the Sheeda attacking the Seven Unknown Men at the end of SS#0?

Weirdest of all, what does it mean that the Time Tailor says "I brought her kind here to kill people like you", implying the Sheeda answer to him, rather than the other way round?
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
22:18 / 11.09.05
I'm not sure the Sheeda "answer" to him - if you think about the Rules of Magic that Zatanna brings up, one of them is "Don't bring up what you can't put down." The Terrible Time Tailor might have given the Sheeda access to the world - might have called them up - but I don't see Gloriana Tenebrae bowing to him or anyone. He brought them up, but failed ultimately to control them. He's a Golden Age Supervillain, and they were usually all about looking after themselves - he might have failed to see the effect of what he was doing on himself.

I suspect that possibly the Tailor called up the Sheeda that last time because of some hatred of kid gangs or something (not clear on his motivation) and then the Sheeda betrayed him, ready to begin planning the next Harrowing; in the meantime, the Seven Unknown Men trapped him in part of the Gold shack and made use of his Time Sewing Machine - maybe they happened upon him seeking a place of power from which to fight the Sheeda? Him being trapped in the house might have allowed him - still, perhaps, an agent of the Sheeda - to plant the seeds of betrayal in Spyder while he was being transformed...

That seems a trifle complicated, but there's a lot of plotlines going on. I don't think, though, that the Tailor holds any power over the Sheeda beyond the capacity to open a door for them.
 
 
Aertho
22:22 / 11.09.05
Except that he's playing by the rules of the mirror and building secret teams of seven.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
22:22 / 11.09.05
Indeed - in fact, I suppose it's possible that having brought the Sheed into the world and lost control of them, the TTT might have turned against them, and still be against them now, as one of the Seven Unknown Men. You'd think Ed or Ali would know that and have a problem with it, though...
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
22:37 / 11.09.05
Let's assume that while Ed's information base is pretty considerable, he's limited to material world data. He might not know, the Tailor might keep himself well-hidden from "normal folks," even super-ones.

Ali, as connected to the spirit world and dead to boot, would know something, possibly maybe. The Tailor's been empowered for a lot longer then he has, though, so you could make an argument that he could still hide himself. Ali would by and large be more "in the know" about the Seven Unknown Men than Ed would.

Other wild speculations - Tailor as Misty's pop (we do see her playing with a loom after all), having "married" Gloriana to bring her into our world. Although, I think we should just play the "so-and-so is Misty's dad" game every week.
 
 
Mario
23:18 / 11.09.05
I'm thinking about transformative events. They often involve trauma or tragedy of a sort. Is it possible that The Terrible Time Tailor ISN'T a traitor at all?

What if he brought a few Sheeda in early, before the full-fledged harrowing, in order to initiate the chain of events that will lead to the Seven Soldiers? Almost like vaccinating our reality with a weaker strain, so we'll develop antibodies...that is to say, Soldiers.
 
  

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