Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.

Underground > Comic Books >

7 Soldiers: Guardian

Page: 1 ... 3 4 5 6 7(8)9 10 11 12 13

04:23 / 09.09.05

Benjamins pretty much nailed it. Also, Suzi is pregnant (though I tried to keep it subtle) in the Colley funeral scene.

Keith, like a scientist

04:23 / 09.09.05

hmm....ok. I can understand that. But she did appear to be pregnant prior to that adventure. IMMEDIATELY prior, actually. And how does her death come about?

Hey everyone, Lil Hollywood isn't Gimmix. I'm betting she's that creepy woman in Zatanna #1 with the blond hair and 50s outfit. "I'm 75 years old and I can't get served in a bar!"

Bar - Faded Alcholic? - Superhero addiction meeting.

Plus same hair color, as opposed to Gimmix's red hair.

Keith, like a scientist

04:27 / 09.09.05

does Capt 7 kill Suzi, then?

Yotsuba & Benjamin!

04:56 / 09.09.05

Hm, yeah. It complicates things a bit if she's pregnant before Slaughter Swamp. (Remember when that was just a catchy name? I pine for those days of innocence.) It's possible then that the real catalyst of the violence is Baby Brain's crush on Suzi ("Even machines love her.") I'm trying to find a way to explain Suzi's murder without opening the pandora's box of horror that it was a side effect of sexual intercourse while wearing TTT's outfits.

Of course it's not unheard of that a 17 year old had sex with a 14 year old, and until the incident at the Swamp, it's quite possible that they were having an admittedly awkward but consentual relationship. However, the flipside is just as likely. Cap used his good looks and age advantage to goad Suzi into a sexual relationship and shamed her into hiding it. Under the spell of the outfits, however, the secret is revealed (possibly because Suzi's pregnancy became much more obvious right before their eyes), Cap murders Suzi in a fit of rage, and Kid Scarface murders Cap in retribution.

Here's the potentially money quote, from Ali in Z#3:
"Because he did something the rest of us decided was wrong."

It's the ambiguity there that seems to confirm the middle ground between the two options above. As much as its possible for a 17 year old and a 14 year old to have a "consentual" relationship, the chances of them fully comprehending the proper balance between what each of them truly wanted and was truly ready to allow are slim at best. But it could've just ended up an emotionally messy secret that they dealt with in private. Thanks to the TTT, the entire Army now knew all the details and they "decided" that Cap took advantage of Suzi, and again, I think Brain's feelings towards her had a lot to do with this. I don't know if we'll learn for certain what happened in that house, chances are we won't, although Grant's always been an expert at revealing the most complicated plot details in a throwaway line of dialogue.

But that seems to be the general gist of things. The only off-camera mystery is the exact nature of Suzi's death, which may or may not ever be revealed.

Regrettable Juvenilia

07:42 / 09.09.05

Surely the red & gold is just autumnal imagery?

And not some kind of decodable Qaballistic system one can catalogue and strip for meaning? Perish the thought!

09:27 / 09.09.05

This is the way I thought it broke down.

Shortly prior to the Colley possession, C7 and Suzie have an intimate relationship. She becomes pregnant, but keeps it a secret.

TTT reveals the future destinies of the Army, including C7's statuatory rape (technically child molestation).

Shortly thereafterwards, the Army discovers the truth. Out of jealousy, they decide "he did something wrong" leading to the scene with the cabinet. If she died in childbirth (not uncommon at that age, or in that age) it might also qualify as murder.

No weird timegames or paradoxes needed.

BTW, good call about the girl in Zatanna #1. It's a possibility.

10:20 / 09.09.05

There's a possibility we'll learn more about this in Zatanna #4, where Misty and Z will be visiting Slaughter Swamp, and most likely that particular shack.

Papers:
The unidentified and missing seventh member of Vigilante's group in 7S#0 is conspicuous as hell with their absence. I think it will be addressed at some point. SOmetimes I wonder if that skull on the shield with them means more than just death, if it might be the seventh member. Deadman, or some such, but it could just be a skull.

The Natural Way

10:37 / 09.09.05

Figurinf out the exact details of the abuse and the Newsboy's future bullyram interests me not at all. I just love the way Grant tells it. A linear, sequential telling would bore me to tears. The future's NOW and all that.

I know, Petey, the colour stuff is boring as. What's cool about the book has nothing to do with colour-coding. One anal aside, though: Cassandra inherits that lil' Sheeda.

13:31 / 09.09.05

Good call acolyte. My only quibble is that the panel after Captain 7's suit panel shows him older. It suggests to me that at least some sort of time passed between Slaughter Swamp and getting pushed into the cabinet. That something else happened to make everyone aware. I guess Suzi dying in childbirth would do it.

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

14:02 / 09.09.05

It is the end of the flashback, so we're not firmly rooted back into the Slaughter Swamp scene after we witness the murder; showing us their destiny without a proper cue is confusing, but I don't doubt it was done on purpose, to let us into the Army's almost delirious experience of the Future before it happens - hell, maybe they never took their suits off, maybe they experienced no time between the Swamp and the murder - which actually would probably have heightened the trauma, a missing piece to their lives, their bodies suddenly more mature but their minds taking too long to catch up - almost the reverse of ol' Baby Brain.

17:07 / 09.09.05

I don't have the issue in front of me. What discription was used to discribe the fates of CHOP SUZY & Millions? "DEAD age 14" - "Murdered age 14" - "killed age 14?" Curious.

I suppose death in childbirth could be considered "murder" on the part of the father for getting her pregnant. Seems a bit of a stretch to me though. Perhaps accendental murder amidst trying to keep their love child secret. I Don't think it really matters.

Also, I think they never DID remove their time tailored suits. Notable exceptions would be when the Don realized Mythology is calling and actually succeeds in getting dead; rather than remaining undead. Also, perhaps the salvation/acceptance of Baby Brain by Jake Jordan who refers to him as "a man I can look eye to eye too" rather than a reclusive freak. As for Tom o-bedlam-- Ali KaZoom, he seems to have succeeded in intigrating the suit, making friends with it and such.

Was convinced that Gimmix was the hollywood girl until mention was made of that 70 year old girl who couldn't get served. Curious how it would be she would never grow old unless that was her power in the same way Baby Brain never physically matured. Could still go either way IMO.

20:24 / 09.09.05

"Dead at 14".

20:29 / 09.09.05

Looking at the TTT's captions, I notice something. They are incomplete.

Ali's says "Homeless Schizophrenic", but doesn't describe his role as "Merlin of the Ghettos"

Kid Scarface's is "undead mass murderer" but doesn't describe his role as a leader of men.

And Baby Brain's is "Reclusive Freak" but doesn't even hint at the newspaper, or his founding a new Newsboy Army.

It's almost like the Tailor described them using the worst possible terms, leaving out the good in their futures.

What else did he leave out?

20:34 / 09.09.05

Yeah, I agree. The suits provide a context of LIMITS. "This is the person you will become" says the TTT. None of the kids see the sweetness under, inside, flipside of the shit that the TTT shows them. Utter Outer Church.

Dead at 14, but mother of a hero?

Keith, like a scientist

20:48 / 09.09.05

that's...interesting. Is the child alive, perhaps?

20:57 / 09.09.05

Given the context, s/he'd be around 55. I'd keep an eye out for characters that age in the remaining three minis.

Too old to be Bulleteer, tho.

00:57 / 10.09.05

Too caucasian to be the Bulleteer. Maybe it's Milo the MiracleMan?

01:16 / 10.09.05

Shilo's too young. He was a teenager in the initial Mister Miracle stories. He'd be at most 30-35.

01:54 / 10.09.05

"Give me that silly outsize top hat you wear, Ali. I'll look good in that." Hmm. Could the Terrible Time Tailor be the mysterious dude that gave Cassandra the top hat that Zatanna is now wearing? I was sure it was Zatara, but now...

Also, note that Millions stays home, and only six go on the final adventure. Once again, six fail where seven must triumph (though I do like the "secret eights" theory).

I heart Barbelith. These analyses rule.

01:57 / 10.09.05

And, well, general thoughts on the issue: Damn good. I keep going back to this one, poring over it. It's great stuff. And, Cam, your art is terrific once again, whether it was the shot of Baby Brain putting on his flight goggles or the last page splash of the Guardian Gang getting ready to kick ass. Or the bit where poor Mo gets shot. Or the panel with Brain holding the pistol. Etc.

Curse you for your brilliance, Gargoyle Mozzarella and Champion Stewardess.

Spyder Todd 2008

02:45 / 10.09.05

On the "She wanted me" line- this was just my interpretation and obviously I could be wrong, but I read it as Cap 7 trying to save his own ass. A lot of times people who rape will try to convince you that it was consensual when you confront them about it (in my experience anyway). I just read it as Cap pleading with them to try to get out of it. Sometimes a shithead is just a shithead, you know?

But I could be wrong.

On another note, I just realized that on the cover Suzi is cradling Baby Brain. Which, given events in the book, wouldn't happen to be foreshadowing by any chance, would it Cameron?

03:03 / 10.09.05

"Gimmix's red hair"

except her hair is short and grey, the red hair is just a wig.

Keith, like a scientist

04:57 / 10.09.05

radjose - shhhhh! i was hoping no one noticed my mistake there.

still, though, Lil Hollywood doesn't have dark hair...it's blonde...still a valid theory!

this is quite a curious issue...some real mysteries we are left with here.

-possible child of Suzi and Captain 7
-the mystery of Lil Hollywood's present day identity
-the possible appearance of the TTT with Ali's hat in Craft's shop
-the exact nature of Suzi and Millions' deaths

I'm Rick Jones, bitch

18:07 / 10.09.05

Hey everyone, Lil Hollywood isn't Gimmix. I'm betting she's that creepy woman in Zatanna #1 with the blond hair and 50s outfit. "I'm 75 years old and I can't get served in a bar!"

She was in a Batman Cartoon once. That's just the DCU version of the cartoon character.

Besides, Hollywood has a bigger bust in the beatdown panel - she got through puberty.

21:11 / 10.09.05

Well, if she's 75 years old in 2005, that implies that she was born in 1930. And since the Newsboy Army stories must take place after 1945 (the founding of the UN) the age is just about right.

miss wonderstarr

22:38 / 10.09.05

Not just the best Seven Soldiers since the very first issue, but the only really potent and haunting episode in this series so far.

Re. that "No. She wanted me" panel -- I think the art is capable of great power and subtlety in this issue, but it seems an over-reading to imagine that Captain 7 is depicted as older in that frame than the one before.

Key point for me: the Sheeda are still flying in the background of that frame. So my understanding is that Captain 7 is protesting in real life, at that same moment, in the cabin, about his already-ongoing sexual relationship with Chop Suzi.

I'm Rick Jones, bitch

23:17 / 10.09.05

Well, if she's 75 years old in 2005, that implies that she was born in 1930. And since the Newsboy Army stories must take place after 1945 (the founding of the UN) the age is just about right.

Except G #4 shows she matured normaly. Look again.

23:23 / 10.09.05

but it seems an over-reading to imagine that Captain 7 is depicted as older in that frame than the one before.

Except he is clearly older. Looks like he has some facial hair there, to me.

01:39 / 11.09.05

2 cents

Lil Hollywood is NOT the incidental character from the group session. You think it's not a gimmick in Hollywood to retard the aging process?

The beatdown panel ocurred days, weeks, years AFTER the encounter in Slaughter Swamp. The kids are taller, more mature, and while Ali, Holly, and Don are still in costume, Cap 7 is wearing a varsity jacket. Whether they remain wearing their grown-up suits to this day is a good question.

The TTT and Nebuloh visited Cassandra Craft's shop, leaving Ali's original hat. The static electricity, mentioned in issue 2, and then evident in issue 3, confirms it.

A spear, not thrown = a penis, fully grown. That's only one interpretation, and not the right one. This is DCU proper.

Yotsuba & Benjamin!

01:50 / 11.09.05

Ali refers to the trip to Slaughter Swamp as their final adventure together though. (In Z#3) Getting together to murder each might not be considered an adventure, so it is possible that it actually did take place later.

However, it seems very deliberate that on that page, the Sheeda show up after Cap has "aged" in the panel behind him, and that leads me to believe that it all took place on the same "night". Remember, the Slaughter Gondelier told Spyder how skitchy time was in that place. The Newsboy Army went into the shack, all the weird time shit and murder happened, and then they went out.

(Although, it begs the question, where did the cabinet come from? Possibly Ali magicked it in there?)

02:17 / 11.09.05

I don't _think_ Ali was capable of real magic, yet. Just sleight-of-hand.

But I'm theorizing that he somehow got hold of Zatara's hat, and that's what opened him up to the true world of magic. When he was killed (sometime before Zatanna #2) the hat was passed on to Zatanna, by a method I'm willing to be we'll discover in Zatanna #4.

miss wonderstarr

08:14 / 11.09.05

Except he is clearly older. Looks like he has some facial hair there, to me.

Or dramatic shadow.

I think this whole page clearly warps time, with the captioned panels representing present plus possible-future that in turn traps and shapes the present -- so to quibble over when exactly these scenes are happening might be misguided. As someone said above, perhaps the beatdown is, in a sense, happening at the same time, or immediately after, the team are shown their future. A time tailor page is not obliged to work according to any kind of strict chronology.

Examining the artwork in a comic closely and reading off definite clues from it can be misleading... in this case, it seems a lot of details were intelligently added for the keen-eyed reader, but imagine doing that with the art for Shining Knight, which sometimes refuses even to follow basic continuity.

13:43 / 11.09.05

Yeah, all that definitely rings true to my language-processing centres, Benjamin.

I've had, maybe since Z#1, the notion of 'sink universes' floating round my brain. Perhaps I should have said. I'm sure Ali's cabinet, and the police-tape holding it together is the key image, given how insistent he seemed about mystery string in Z#3.

15:07 / 11.09.05

you can't say something as interesting as sink universes and then move on, lickety-quick. What's this you mean, Dunc? Howzit work?

15:43 / 11.09.05

I think he means self-contained microverses, such as the cabinet of Ali, QwEwQ, The Outer Church, Status Quorum Comicsverse, The Crack and (in a fashion) Planet Bonsai.

I could be off, though.

Page: 1 ... 3 4 5 6 7(8)9 10 11 12 13