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New / Mighty Avengers

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12:31 / 21.10.07

I agree the Bendis-voice is an obstacle but I'd still actually much rather read witty (if fairly homogenous) dialogue than the utterly wooden (if differentiated) dialogue you get in most comics.

ONLY NICE THINGS

17:24 / 21.10.07

Well, a problem with New Avengers before we even get onto the scary sex stuff is that the section in which the Hood does his big speech is lifted almost straight from an issue of Powers in which exactly the same thing happens. And, for that matter, the Tigra beatdown is largely stylistically half-inched from the scene in Powers where Deena Pilgrim is beaten and abused by a superpowered crook by whom she has been abducted. That scene was more overtly sexual - Powers being an adult-oriented book - but had a number of similarities. The disquieting bits included the repeated striking at the end, the videotaping, the villains watching it and cheering, the cleavage, and the slurred "stop" from Tigra - that, in particular, made the whole thing feel a bit icky for me. Of course, the point is probably that the Hood is a mean and nasty person, as are his cohorts, and that repeatedly beating a downed woman is precisely the sort of thing they would enjoy. Women in refrigerators, basically. However, I don't think it's totally crack-addled to see this as a) a bit Doctor Light and b) an uncomfortable tool to use.

I think that if Darkhawk was getting it, he probably wouldn't have pinged those top two shirt buttons in the process. Which is not Bendis' doing, but is still kind of there - much as for some reason, the Sentry's wife is not just dead, but nekkid and dead over in Mighty.

21:20 / 21.10.07

Yeah, aaight, makes sense. I read Powers to a point, stopping somewhere if not exactly before the Icon relaunch so I don't think I saw that. Didn't notice the nekkidness of Lindy Reynolds though but. And I'm more than aware of the ropey-ass treatment minorities and women have received in superhero comics since, well, inception.

(It would, I think, have been actively more explicit, cleavage-wise at least, had Tigra received the beatdown in her actual, you know, costume.)

I'm gonna still go with Digital Femme on this, and more - I can actually map an arc where Greer Nelson, Secret Avengers traitor during the Civil War lest we forget, has to go with Cage's team, question her actions during the crossover, etc. but I'd hope ultimately prove herself, primarily by asskicking, to the, um, to this patriarchy. And Jessica Jones, Echo. If they ain't skrulls.

The Hood's arc here, and I know this is a less serious subject, but I read the mini which is some decent BKV (did you know his accoutrements came from the Nisanti, btw? Demons out Runaways? Straight up) and this seems a natural progression in his Tony Montana + demonic possession, supervillain fetish characteristics to me. There's perhaps a missing second act, which Beyond! assuredly is not, but still it makes perfect sense.

ONLY NICE THINGS

22:09 / 21.10.07

Oh, and I nearly forgot:

Does this arrangement seem at all familiar?

22:15 / 21.10.07

Yeah, the cleavage might not have been in the script, but it feels as though that ended up bringing what this is really about into light.

Takes a lot of balls to say this scene wasn't sexualized. Even if the panel above's art and the arrangement of their bodies and perspective was just on the artist, that (whispered) line alone speaks volumes.

04:41 / 02.11.07

I'm gonna still go with Digital Femme on this, and more - I can actually map an arc where Greer Nelson, Secret Avengers traitor during the Civil War lest we forget, has to go with Cage's team, question her actions during the crossover, etc. but I'd hope ultimately prove herself, primarily by asskicking, to the, um, to this patriarchy. And Jessica Jones, Echo. If they ain't skrulls.

I think Digital Femme is kind of running on fantasy if she thinks this story is going to have Greer as a protagonist, as opposed to motivational victim. It's so far from likely that I'm rather boggled, in fact. What about Bendis, and his treatment of Tigra so far, gives any prospect of this? He's had Jarvis bitching about her, her being the slut for Pym (and Bendis doesn't even like Pym much), and now weeping and shrieking as she's beaten to a pulp rather than fighting back.

Regrettable Juvenilia

07:42 / 02.11.07

her being the slut for Pym

This interpretation (I'm thinking the choie of the fourth word there in particular) requires some projection of values on the part of the reader, surely?

08:11 / 02.11.07

I liked (the idea of) her and Pym, actually. It had potential in several directions.

09:23 / 02.11.07

This interpretation (I'm thinking the choie of the fourth word there in particular) requires some projection of values on the part of the reader, surely?

Inclined to agree

12:34 / 02.11.07

Back of the net, tavs; unfortunately a rather embarrassing own goal, though - paraphrasing someone smarter than me: "when bemoaning casual sexism, do try to avoid casual sexism".

Look, there's an absolute litany of mistreatment of female characters in the genre, unquestionably; a sustained pattern of throwing rape as motivating factor into backstories, and this is generally appalling in - mostly - a stupid way. However, Brian Bendis is not guilty of any of these charges and indeed oft lauded for creating one of the most believable and identifiable characters in the milieu. Re: your quite remarkable snatching of defeat from the jaws of victory, it would have been quite easy to cite a pattern in his Avengers comics, going back as far as the Scarlet Witch's 'abuse', taking in Skrullectra's groinal justice, Lindy Reynolds death and the Illuminati's bitchin' bout laydeez - whether this amounts to something concrete (e.g. a frankly bizarre way of dealing with one's problems with women) I'm not sure, but it certainly does constitute circumstantial evidence.

More later, pushed for time...

15:03 / 02.11.07

Okay, fair enough on not liking the word. But I've got a question: do you think that scene with Pym was intended to *increase* respect for the character? She was a piece of cheesecake to maximize the embarrassment factor for Pym when they are broken in on.

Janean Patience

11:45 / 21.11.07

There's something very adolescent about New Avengers at the moment, if you ask me. Much of Alias had much the same tone, a palpable excitement at putting childhood icons into adult situations. I think Bendis has acknowledged that his big Skrull idea - what if Skrulls didn't just frame the Fantastic Four, but shapeshifted into positions of power? - stems from his imaginings as a teenager reader. The Hood idea - what if supervillians worked together and threatened heroes' families? - seems to come from a similar well of inspiration. And with those two storylines running concurrently, it's been ineptly done. The Hood's leapt from subplot to main plot without ever really convincing as a threat, and the creepy and unpleasant roughing-up-Tigra scene's made no difference to that. There's a feeling of "Wouldn't if be cool if..." about these sequences and then a lack of following thought, the jump from kid's stuff to adult failing halfway.

Mighty Avengers, in contrast, succeeds by being old school. The shiny superheroes face a threat to the world and fly around punching stuff and thinking in bubbles. Bendis does good action when he's not trying too hard and I'm keen to see exactly how Ares kicks ass. It's fun.

Regrettable Juvenilia

12:01 / 21.11.07

Huh. I'm far from in agreement about which comic is a more enjoyable and engaging read, but I do concur with the "adolescent" verdict. It's a shame because the first NA storyline with this line-up really endeared me to both the title and the team, however the latest issue once again sees a creepy, arguably exploitative and definitely fan-servicing combination of sexualised women threatened with physical violence in a manner that is either deliberate or disturbingly revealing: in this case, Jessica Drew in the shower being menaced, initially from behind, by Logan.

Janean Patience

12:12 / 21.11.07

I forgot to mention Jessica Drew in the shower. Bendis handled her pheromones and general sexual attractiveness really well in the early issues of this title. Now, on a roll after the Tigra stuff, he thought he'd put her naked and defenceless for a crucial scene, then throw in the Black Widow for that threesome frisson. There's a difference between being inspired by 70s Marvel and 70s porn. Also: the cover. Blades! Cleavage!
I used to enjoy New Avengers, though it's often been a storyline on and a storyline off. Since Civil War it's been decidedly ropey.

Regrettable Juvenilia

12:36 / 21.11.07

Arguably the elephant in the room in terms of the plotting and pacing is that Bendis is trying to tell what he says is one story through two books, and one of them is highly delayed. So the latest issue of New Avengers is set not only after the end of the current Mighty Avengers arc, but after the resolution of the initial threat that concerns the next MA arc. It's either or ironic that Frank Cho, the artist on whom we are waiting, was chosen arguably for his cheescake-esque depiction of women (and he certainly revels in his "ass-shot" image, as anyone who's seen the comment he wrote to Bendis on his birthday knows - see Newsarama). In other words, the messed-up attitudes towards women and sex that pervade comics culture are responsible for basically all the problems with the current Avengers titles.

Phex: Dorset Doom

14:47 / 21.11.07

Cho's leaving Mighty Avengers in a few issues time, so hopefully Mighty and New should sync up.

17:17 / 26.11.07

Apparently the shower scene wasn't cause for raising eyebrows -- because it worked (I didn't really understand the reasoning, and I haven't read the issue past that scene or before).

I'm absolutetly lost, 'cause when I read the scene it felt like unnecessary Norman Bates territory for readers who would appreciate that sort of titillation of violence peppered with sex, and domination through implicit sexual vulnerability (even if a failed attempt by Wolvy, the premise is already jerkily iffy -- threatning to poke the naked lady in the shower from behind while he talks closely to the back of her neck? WTF?).
(and the cover felt somewhat urgh as well).

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

17:31 / 26.11.07

Kalinara blogs about the shower scene, and talks about why she doesn't think the scene was that gratuitous.

By the way, I picked up the latest trade of New Avengers -- whichever one includes the "Sanctum Sanctorum as Starbucks site" spell. I actually quite liked it, even if I don't think they know how to use Doctor Strange effectively.

18:14 / 26.11.07

The biggest thing about that scene is how distracting the censorship, via Wolverine's fists, is. Seriously, scan through the art really quickly, it looks like a comedy sketch.

Janean Patience

19:27 / 18.12.07

Dear Mr Bendis,

Re New Avengers 37:

You've tried and you've tried. You had him shoot Wolverine's dick off, beat up Tigra and videotape it, scare a bunch of high-level supervillains and now break into SHIELD. Nobody can say you've not made the effort. But The Hood is still not scary.

Tell me why he's a credible threat, again? Because he turns into a demon? Because he shoots with two guns, John Woo style? Because he's seen a few Mafia movies and has big ideas about scaring superheroes through their families? Because he's Scarface dressed as Red Riding Hood? And the Avengers, who in this New Secret guise still have several world-savers in their number, are supposed to be worried about him?

This last issue read like nothing first time through. Second time I liked it more because of the interactions, though I still only knew two of the villains being beaten up and at no point thought any Avenger was in danger. Beginning with one of your favourite devices, lots of seemingly disparate Marvel heroes in a big group shot, it went through 20 pages of fight scene, an interrogation framework which you could write with one hand while driving, and ended with Two-Gun Hoodie ripping through SHIELD to declare his revenge plan go. I hope it's over quickly. The Collective wasn't good, but this has been a waste of everyone's time.

03:37 / 20.12.07

Janean, I think you've summed up what many of us out there in ReaderLand are feeling about The Hood. well done. (I respect Bendis' track record & desire in trying to make something out of previously-ignored/discarded characters, but The Hood isn't really working as a credible Big Threat, is he? But Bendis did make Luke Cage sing again (metaphorically speaking), as he did (for the most part) Spider-Woman, Ms. Marvel/Carol Danvers, and a few others, so he did some good in the Marvel U.)

08:23 / 20.12.07

I'm kind of annoyed at Bendis' treatment of the Hood because I really liked the mini-series he was in and thought the character could have maintained his own series. He worked quite well as a small time criminal torn between his desire to be a stand up guy and his baser impulses. Now however he's lost any ambiguity he might have had and is just a shit supervillain. And Marvel's got thousands of those.

Haus of Mystery

19:53 / 20.12.07

Yeah..The Hood was a nice idea, done pretty well. It trod similar territory to 'Wanted' but was a good deal less histrionic and laughable than Millar's effort. A very unusual Marvel comic from the now halcyon seeming Jemas era. I don't read Bendeeece's work, but from the sounds it of he's making a big ugly hash of it, and missing the point of the character by a million miles. Well done! Cheque please!

Janean Patience

12:14 / 02.02.08

The psychosexual subtexts of Bendis's Avengers comics are getting really nakedly depraved, aren't they? From the first two storylines of Mighty Avengers we've had Iron Man transformed into a naked robotic supervillain with the Wasp's body (supposedly, though obviously Frank Cho added his usual breast augmentation) and now the Wasp with Giant-Man's powers transformed into a naked symbiote supervillain. It's slash fiction. "Mixing two heroes and a villain into a near-nude bad girl is the only way I can get off now. Help me, Doc Samson!"

That said, I enjoyed the first storyline though there was no need for Ultron to be a) Tony and b) female. The last couple of issues have sucked, however. The treatment of a New York full of Venoms was no less cursory in MA #8 than it was when we saw it in New Avengers; a couple of splash pages, some "We can't hurt them! They're civilians!" fighting and it's all over. Plus I hate Mark Bagley's art. Fans praise his speed. I say it's fucking obvious that he takes little time over his work. Characters aren't consistent from panel to panel, Ms Marvel especially seeming to be played by five actresses per issue, and the storytelling choices are lazy. I can't imagine he ever decides, after the rough stick-figures stage, that a panel would work better from a different perspective. If it's down, it's drawn and getting inked. So there's no rhythm, no space, none of that unconscious stuff that makes a story flow.

I quite liked Tony solving the Venom problem while thinking about something else entirely. But the quality of both these titles is hugely inconsistent.

Janean Patience

17:10 / 05.02.08

And as for the conclusion of the Hood storyline... every single scene in the annual has been done before in the course of the post-Civil War issues. It's like a megamix or a clips show that puts together the highlights of the last half-hour. If you're buying NA and haven't got this yet, seriously don't bother. It fucking sucks.

Phex: Dorset Doom

18:46 / 05.02.08

%Oh, now don't be so negative there J.P! Why there's everything we love about comics in New Avengers Annual #2! Incoherent fight scenes! 'Snappy' dialogue that makes the characters sound like they're all in the terminal phases of a meth binge! Tigra getting beaten up again- naked! An appearance by the massively under-exposed Wrecking Crew! The Registration Act being conveniently ignored yet again! A character dying and coming back! Doctor Strange as one-size fits all Deus Ex Machina! Jessica Cage-Jones continuing to not give a fuck about being married to Luke! A promise that The Hood will be further misinterpreted in future! Tigra! Getting beaten up! Again! Naked!%

Janean Patience

19:17 / 05.02.08

I came back on here thinking I was way too negative and not constructive enough in that last post, I was angry, Barbelith deserves a better explanation of why that comic sucks... and kind, generous Phex has done it all for me. It really was awful, wasn't it? A never-ending confused fight just like the last issue, Dr Strange making his sole contribution to the team so far and leaving, sexual menace and Tigra again - and this time it was so, so stupid, an entire team of villains turning up in her bedroom - and, of course, Ms Marvel not bothering to arrest the outlaw Avengers. For the second time this week. Bendis has always been flawed, but he used to write way better than this.

00:24 / 06.02.08

Now, now, don't forget that in the climactic battle, Tigra totally busted in and wreaked awesome revenge on the bad guys.

What's that?

She just scratched the Hood twice and then he shot her?

Never mind, carry on.

Janean Patience

19:56 / 06.02.08

You know what the New Avengers and the Hood's crew need? A refresher course at the famous Manga Khan School of Melodrama. Group Fight Choreography 101.

"So, Mr Living Laser, you're here on the chalkboard - what's your next move?"

"Uh, I guess I fire at Wolverine?"

"And?"

"And... miss?"

"You're forgetting the most important aspect of a group fight. Dialogue. What's the point of having fantastic powers and incredible devices if nobody knows about them? So certainly you fire, but at the same time shout something like 'A blast from the deadly laser projectors implanted under my skin should fry that errant X-Man!' Then shoot, then what's your next move Wolverine?"

"Dodge the blast or take it, I'll heal anyway, then cut a hole in the nearest - "

"Dialogue, Mr Logan?"

"Ah yeah. I'll say 'Saved - by my uncanny mutant reflexes! Got to stop that Living Lightbulb before he gets in another shot!' Then I'll cut 'im up."

"Good stuff, Mr Logan. You haven't completely forgotten the lessons I taught you, I see."

"No sir, Professor Claremont."

16:47 / 07.02.08

It was certainly a bit dispiriting to read this, about Secret Invasion, from an apparently 'excited' Bendis on Newsarama the other day;

'It's not just eight issues of the mini-series. Another thing that makes "Secret Invasion" unique are the eight issues of "New Avengers" and the eight issues of "Mighty Avengers." Sixteen whole issues where we tie-in and rewind the clock'

So that's twenty four key issues, plus, no doubt, sundry other spin-offs, as if this was a good thing.

I'll admit to feeling a little sick after reading that. Clearly, Secret Invasion is not going to be a project for the faint of heart, or in fact the short of patience.

02:18 / 16.02.08

My guess: Jessica is a Skrull. She diverts the conversation in the latest NA issue away from the topic of the Skrull invasion, and although Bendis does a good job justiyfing her actions as Jessica-like, I feel it's clear she's Skrully. This also goes in line with her baby being Skrully. Maybe her maternal instincts are taking over more than she planned on/realized. The question is, when did the switch happen?

Also, I think Dr. Strange is a Skrull, and that's why he ditched out on the Avengers in the Annual.

Tony Stark - NOT a Skrull. Bendis wants everyone to think he is, but he isn't. He's genuinely a human, trying to save us from the Skrulls.

I'm not sure who's a Skrull on the Mighty Avengers team. any guesses? There's a glance in the latest NA issue that hints it might be Natasha, but I think that glance is a 'what's going on here, why are they not telling us what they're talking about' glance. Unless that's what Bendis WANTS us to think -- moooo hooo hahahahaaaa.

03:42 / 16.02.08

oh, and Clint might be a Skrull. Two resurrections is a bit too much. Although Bendis loves Hawkeye, so if this Clint IS a Skrull, the "real" Clint is sure to return soon.

04:42 / 16.02.08

Well, Jessica is a woman, Dr Strange is a hippie, basically, and Clint Barton has, arguably, never really found a direction in life.

How is it all going to turn out?

08:33 / 16.02.08

Tony Stark, agreed, is not a skrull.

Spider-Woman, the Black Widow, Ms Marvel and The Wasp all seem like possible candidates.

Is Brian Bendis sufficiently far gone to think he can get away with having most of the female characters in the Marvel universe as duplictous, shape-shifting monsters?

Hopefully not, but on recent showings (the Tigra incidents in particular) I wouldn't put it past him.

Spyder Todd 2008

19:01 / 16.02.08

Ms. Marvel is not a Skrull, becaause over in her own book Tony Stark just told a member of her team that he thinks she is.

My guess? Anyone who has their own book isn't going to be a skrull. That just seems like the reasonable way to avoid complications.

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