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What exactly does get you banned on Barbelith?

 
  

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Our Lady Has Left the Building
10:06 / 11.01.06
Seeing as we can't do squat, has anyone PMed Tom?
 
 
Smoothly
10:14 / 11.01.06
Dunno, Lady. I don’t think so, but I don’t imagine it would be a terrible thing if he got more than one email about it.

So yeah, with respect to whether a user should be permitted to post on Barbelith, I don’t think it matters whether the suit is a joke one or not. Users can be ‘in character’ here to varying degrees, but when it comes to hate speech and harassment, I don’t think that matters.
I also believe Hawksmoor’s posts in the Creation and his PMs to be trollsome, by any standard, and I don’t see any evidence that his approach will change if we give him a chance to settle down. Whether he’s sincere or not, whether he’s a returning troll or a new one, I don’t see why members should continue to be exposed to him here. *I* don’t want any more messages from him, and he wants to be friends with me. Fuck knows why toksik should have to put up with the PMs he’s been getting.
 
 
Spaniel
10:21 / 11.01.06
I was getting a little carried away with the jokesuit debate. For the record, it doesn't matter whether he's a jokesuit, a returning troll, a new troll, somewhere in between, or just an idiot, he should get the boot.
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:34 / 11.01.06
I'm often the one who defends these guys....but I can't convince myself it is worth the effort this time. What I would say is that we could be a little more forward in deleting some of the worse posts, especially since banning isn't an option that is directly available.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:50 / 11.01.06
It's not a good argument for keeping him, but his short stories do actually provide quite a good kit of parts for things a writer should not do, both stylistically and in the way comments are being received.
 
 
Jack Fear
10:51 / 11.01.06
I thought that's what Lionheart was for...
 
 
w1rebaby
10:56 / 11.01.06
Only just seen this Creation thing (not been around much recently) but as Petey says on the thread: posting of ridiculous teenage sex and violence fantasy, rabid homophobic insults as a reaction to criticism... haven't we seen this before? Quite a few times?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:53 / 11.01.06
I don't think so... the writing style is different - it takes quite a good writer to write convincingly badly. This may be a joke suit, although personally I think it probably isn't, but on current evidence I don't think we can confidently identify it as that of one of the old stagers.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:07 / 11.01.06
Less confidently than we could with Tits Win? Am I missing something?
 
 
Ganesh
13:14 / 11.01.06
Yes, less confidently than we could with Tits Win.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:41 / 11.01.06
Because... Tits Win's IP address was checked by Tom, presumably?
 
 
w1rebaby
14:20 / 11.01.06
Hmm. I'm mainly thinking that it's just an amazing coincidence if it's not him - I can't remember having seen any similar situations apart from with Calo under various guises.

On the other hand I don't frequent many places with Creation-type areas, so perhaps the "look at my titguns" / "your all gay" thing is more common than I imagine.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:13 / 11.01.06
There was a bunch of stuff with TW, some of it autobiographical, but a lot of it comes down to phrasing. I may be wrong, but Hawksmoor doesn't sound right - he shares some of the same preoccupations, but they're expressed in a different way. Of course, this could be the greater sophistication offered by a process of education, but right now I'm on the nay side.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:42 / 11.01.06
So, just to clarify, the difference between being banned (for being ACAKAK) and not being banned (for being ACAKAK) is now reliant on "phrasing", as interpreted by Tom, Ganesh and Haus? I'm not offering comment on that, I just want to make sure we're all on the same page here as to what's happened so far and will continue to happen.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
15:54 / 11.01.06
Admittedly, I've only read 'Death Before Sunrise', or something like that, anyway, by D Mann, but parts of 'Bone' would seem to have been pretty much lifted word for word from D Mann's ouevre.

Then again, D Mann's work owes a significant debt to 'Brute' magazine, 'Brute' magazine and 'Brute' magazine, with extra helpings of 'Brute' magazine, minus the pictures, context, irony and so on, so, you know, who knows...
 
 
Spatula Clarke
16:07 / 11.01.06
So, just to clarify, the difference between being banned (for being ACAKAK) and not being banned (for being ACAKAK) is now reliant on "phrasing", as interpreted by Tom, Ganesh and Haus?

My understanding is that we email Tom about a possible Kunto reappearance as and when we recognise enough similarities to be sure enough that its him in our own minds. Tom then checks whatever it is that Tom checks - IP range, ISP, status of suit prior to threads and posts that have raise suspicions - and acts based on all those things put together.

In other words, if you believe it's Kunto (and it's clear that others believe the same) go ahead and notify Tom. I'm not and so I won't.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
16:13 / 11.01.06
And, now that I think about it, I'm sure I remember Tom saying that the next time this happened he'd be onto Kunto's university/ISP to tell them about the abuse of their service in order to harass both the board as a whole and certain individuals on it. It really is way past time that something like that was done, because the threat itself - like so many others in the past - has clearly had no effect.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
16:18 / 11.01.06
Hang on Randy, you're being a bit premature. Tom hasn't told us he confirmed the IP.

It's also the Christmas holidays.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
16:44 / 11.01.06
Yeah - like I've said in the Moderation Requests thread, I've been completely out of the loop on the TW thing. I'm basing the comments in that second post on the fact that the suit has been locked and others have been putting its posts and threads up for deletion - standard policy where Swansea's concerned but not, as far as I'm aware, general troll policy.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:49 / 11.01.06
So, just to clarify, the difference between being banned (for being ACAKAK) and not being banned (for being ACAKAK) is now reliant on "phrasing", as interpreted by Tom, Ganesh and Haus?

As far as I understand it, E. Randy's analysis is right. Anyone can draw Tom's attention to somebody they think might be one of the people who have been banned from Barbelith, and Tom then looks at the IP address, login, that sort of thing.

And no, Flybs, it is not on the grounds of "phrasing". I'd be perfectly happy to explain the grounds. On the other hand, I'm slightly concerned that, if the intention is to make it easy to cause endless arguments about whether or not somebody is a recurring troll, providing a list of handy things to avoid doing might be a poor start.

What I can say, very simply, is that Tom had some time ago identified the modus operandi of this particular user, which was to find old suits with Hotmail addresses displayed which had not been used for a long time, and to see if this Hotmail address was still in use. If it was not still in use, he would then sign up to Hotmail using that email address. He would then request a password reminder from Barbelith, and use that to log in to the suit and use it. Therefore, if a suit was registered in 2001 and had a Hotmail account on display, had not been used for some time and suddenly started posting a lot, that greatly increased the likelihood that this method, which has been used as far as we know pretty much exclusively by ACAKAK (like that). Tom identified this method some time ago, and posted about it in the Policy.

Therefore, once I asked myself the question, the first thing I did was check TW's profile, to find that the suit had been registered in 2001 and had a Hotmail address on public display. I then performed a google search to see when it had last been used. It turned out to have been fallow for quite some time. Also, the previous owner had been so obliging to sign his posts - who says that it's useless? - which allowed me to find out that the previous owner of the suit was Varis, whom I remembered as having quite a different style from the current incarnation. People do of course change over time, but the difference between Varis' style and the style of the current "Tits Win" seemed to support the idea that the suit had been taken over.

That's all pretty generic. I could go on to detail why I thought that the specific new occupier was the particular user it was, but I'd rather do that by PM, if that's OK. "Phrasing" was one of those, although I didn't use the scarequotes when I appplied it.

Hawksmoor, on the other hand, has different phrasing, or if you'd prefer "phrasing". He also joined the board in 2004, significantly later than the common run of taken-over suits. I don't know offhand whether he had a visible Hotmail address before Tom hid them all. His interaction with the board overlaps Tits Win's, which is not the normal M.O. Again, there are a number of reasons why I do not think Hawksmoor is ACAKAK, which I would again be happy to share, but a lot of that will depend on how much faith you place in phrasing and how much in subject matter, where there are significant overlaps. Lots of young people with very limited reading habits, however, share some or all of those interests - sexy ladies, violence, violence done by and to sexy ladies - and similar ways of reacting. Hawksmoor's responses, while certainly vitriolic, are far closer to those of Crimes of Fashion than ACAKAK.

If he's to be banned, the strong argument is because he is posting and PMing homophobic abuse. The weak argument, in my humble and at present, is that he's a knodgesuit. I may be wrong about this, of course.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
18:48 / 11.01.06
You're right it is weak. It's horribly weak and yet someone has just been banned primarily on that basis from what I gather about this situation.

When we ask what is wrong with barbelith we never engage with the issue that is the perma-troll. Now you say...

Anyone can draw Tom's attention to somebody they think might be one of the people who have been banned from Barbelith, and Tom then looks at the IP address, login, that sort of thing.

I don't think we should focus on the issue of whether someone has aleady been banned, I want people banned based on their behaviour on the board.

I understand that TW was banned because of his behaviour but I am also aware that this focus came about because he was regarded by a small number of people as probably being Mr Skincare 2002. This isn't valid unless you can swear it was definitely him and you can't, you have made that quite clear. Your suspicion that this person was AC is circumstantial.

If he's to be banned, the strong argument is because he is posting and PMing homophobic abuse

If you really believe this then consistently you now need to recommend that Hawksmoor is banned because both he and TW have a certain type of bias and a lack of genuine response in common. In fact Hawksmoor on the basis of recent behaviour is worse because he is using the pm system in this way.

One of the most foolish things we do on barbelith is claim that someone is old horrid boots when we ban them. If only a few people have this suspicion then why go on the deletion ride? It doesn't matter who they actually are if they have only started to say offensive things. The real problem is the violent way that they're engaging with our community and that's not something that only one person does and it's not peculiar online to find people who engage in this way.

In addition, if you are serious about keeping Knowledge off barbelith then the people who feel they know his foibles really well need to start checking more of the applicants. Otherwise you had better start releasing this information that allows you to spot him because by the sound of it he could easily make his way through the application process at the moment. I have been around for a long time, longer than a number of the checkers and I didn't recognise him in TW. That isn't to say it wasn't him but it's rather a significant point if he was.
 
 
w1rebaby
19:06 / 11.01.06
I'm not sure I really see a problem here. The possibility that someone might be a returning bannee is something that figures into the "are they worth banning" issue. If they can be positively identified, even if they've not done anything appalling they should be re-banned; otherwise, banning has no meaning. (If someone has really, honestly changed their ways and demonstrates that then maybe a second chance is appropriate, but seeing how hard it is to get banned from Barbelith anyway that's going to be rare... and this is Calo we're talking about anyway.)

If someone is posting some bad stuff which is not quite as bad as it might be, and also bears some resemblance to a bannee, that can add up to a ban. If they're posting quite appalling shite (like this Hawksmoor character) then it's irrelevant whether they're a returner or not. I'm not 100% sure that he's the K, but I think it quite likely that he is, and either way it's academic - he's apparently impervious to debate and is actively, even aggressively offensive.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:12 / 11.01.06
I understand that TW was banned because of his behaviour

No, he wasn't, Nina, if by his behaviour you mean "what he posted on Barbelith in December 2005". He was banned because hacking somebody else's suit is a banning offence. He was bannned because the suit was beyond a reasonable doubt being occupied by somebody who is banned from Barbelith. He might eventually have been banned for his behaviour, independent of that behaviour demonstrating that he was the Knowledge, but it would have taken a lot more time and hand-wringing.

One of many differences between the Tits Win situation and the Hawksmoor situation is that "prove that Hawksmoor is not ACAKAK" is demanding that we prove a negative. Right now I don't care whether he is or not - I don't believe he is, and I am confident that there is not an acceptable level of evidence to state with confidence that he is in any case. Further, I think that starting the claims on skimpy evidence is bad form. He is being discussed here for his behaviour, by which I mean "what he has posted on Barbelith in January 2006". That is the discussion we are having above.

Knodge was banned for his behaviour, and then behaved in a way that meant he stayed banned. People who behave in a similar way - including deceitfully obtaining access to login details - are banned. The question with Hawksmoor is whether his current behaviour merits banning, which is what we would be discussing if for reasons unknown concerted attempts were being made simultaneously to drag this discussion to:

a) How do you know Hawksmoor is not the Knowledge (answer: we don't, but the evidence so far is far from compelling)
b) How did you know Tits Win was the Knowledge (we don't with utter certainty, but there is a significant amount of evidence to suggest either that he was or that somebody else was behaving in a way _that has been identified as banning behaviour repeatedly in the past)

This has already been discussed many, many times - many of the links in the FAQ I linked to contain such discussions. I am not interested in being shouted at by you for remembering this, or for noticing suit hijacking when you didn't.

As for the entrance protocols - at the moment the entrance protocols verify whether someone has a working email address and some relationship between an identity and that email address. If the Knowledge or any other troll, past, present or future, created such an identity, he would get through if he had created a sufficiently convincing online identity. The point is that it would take a disproportionate amount of time for each login to be identified - creating online identity, then waiting for access. As opposed to the automated process I described above which makes it quite easy to work out when a suit has been hijacked, and which Tom has just made significantly more difficult. This will remove this way of determining when a suit has been hijacked, which hijacking is a bannable offence. So, if a former troll can create a convincing online identity, get a login and then use it without a) behaving in a way that gets them banned on the grounds that they have revealed that behind the login is a banned poster or b) behaving in a way that gets them banned for whatever we decide is banning behaviour, then goood luck to them. A new face, a new life. However, they might be better off going to a board where they do not risk having their effort in creating an artficial persona wasted if they make a slip-up.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:08 / 11.01.06
Having said all of which - I don't think Hawksmoor is susceptible to persuasion on this one. He's going to carry on employing homophbic abuse against people, and also express really unpleasant vioews on homosexuality more generally. What I'd like to see is a post from a moderator so far uninvolved, telling him that his homophobia is not acceptable and that if he does it again he will be banned for harrassment. However, there's no point in doing that unless we have Tom's agreement to do so. Alternatively, we could start deleting his posts, although that will just make him flame on and get banned anyway, but to do that we need more effective moderation of the Creation, which means more moderators.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
21:17 / 11.01.06
I really don't have the energy to jump on this merry-go-round for the full ride yet again, so quickly:

When we ask what is wrong with barbelith we never engage with the issue that is the perma-troll.

We do. I know I have.

I want people banned based on their behaviour on the board.

You seem to think this doesn't happen. It does - I've emailed Tom and pointed out profiles that I think he needs to consider taking action with after picking them up myself or having been directed to them, via PM, by other members of the board. He's then banned them as he's seen fit based on the evidence presented to him and his own investigation, regardless of who may or may not have been in control of them at the time.

Haus and fridge have covered the other issues more than adequately, I think (not to mention that they've also been covered in a million and one other Policy threads just like this one in the past).

Can I also point out again that everybody who's posted on this issue is just as capable as anyone else of emailing or PMing Tom (with links to posts as evidence) if they feel that a suit needs to be locked. It does currently seem as though people believe that's only a power available to a select few.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:24 / 11.01.06
What I'd like to see is a post from a moderator so far uninvolved, telling him that his homophobia is not acceptable and that if he does it again he will be banned for harrassment.

I'm not a Creation mod but I have been (pretty much) uninvolved, so I've written just such a post.
 
 
Shrug
21:25 / 11.01.06
I thought about putting some of his extremer comments up for deletion today but it sprang to mind that Tom might need to see some of these posts first? If it makes any differene I'm happy to collate what he's already said so we can get some of this tripe off the board for ASAP. I don't find it upsetting in this controlled enviroment but it is unpleasant to say the least.
 
 
matthew.
21:30 / 11.01.06
Has anybody heard from Tom?
 
 
Shrug
21:30 / 11.01.06
Btw this is Hawksmoor's proposed change to his story. I've disagreed it obviously.

"BONE...hold up a sec..you people might actually like the title after all. Go figure, eh? By the way, it still aint natural, no matter what you people say. Last Word on it. LOL. Later, peeps. I've had a good time."
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:33 / 11.01.06
Thanks, Shrug. I think we shoudl veto these for the moment, although locking and deleting the threads (where they can still be viewed by going to the URL, but are not visible) may be an option. I'll PM Tom about this now, if nobody objects too strenuously and we think there is a case for banning. It doesn't seem like he's going to change, and when (not if) he comes back he will just carry on where he left off.
 
 
Shrug
21:51 / 11.01.06
Nay bother Haus.
Mordant, could you pm me your post to Hawksmoor? I'd be interested as to what you said in it, if that's okay.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:54 / 11.01.06
The post is here, if you want to read it.
 
 
Shrug
21:56 / 11.01.06
Ah, thought you might have pm-ed it to him. Ta.
 
 
Jack Fear
23:01 / 11.01.06
Either you're gay, or you aren't.

Holy mother of God—first Kali returns, then Spike follows her!
 
 
Char Aina
23:37 / 11.01.06
i wasnt sure whether to take that in a kinda pseudo descartes way...

sodomo ergo sum?
 
  

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