for one thing, no matter how many times i've tried to distinguish "feminism" from "feminist politics", people keep saying i'm anti-feminism or anti-female.
ShadowSax: I'm not in favor of banning you, and I think that somewhere else I commented that I've seen your posts in books and found them reasonable and informed (I admit I was kinda surprised, but pleasantly so). I do think your posts in F4J jumped up a notch in clarity, quality, and argumentation when...well, I don't know how to say this without sounding boastful, but when I joined the conversation and engaged you almost strictly on the grounds of history and fact, because to do so was a kind of respect, which you recognized. Before that time, you seemed to be arguing from a place where you felt, rightly or wrongly, cornered. Once you came out of your corner, your argumentation still had problems, from my perspective, but it definitely became more grounded in facts and less in lashing out.
I said in that debate, also, that I enjoy a good debate; I think I'd enjoy our debate more if there was less focus on personalities, less "posturing" (the possibly problematic term I used in the debate) from all concerned parties, but I accept that anger and exaggeration are part of human experience, and I don't want everyone to sound like me (as I said in the "woman-friendly barbelith" thread), at least not all the time.
You do seem to be able to engage with me without namecalling, which I appreciate, although I do get frustrated that you don't seem to be able to say, ever, "Ok, you know, that site I used was really, on second glance, a pretty dubious, even misogynist, source of information." Or, "You know, I think I've overstated my case there." You don't have to roll over and play dead, but I do think you've fed the fire at times.
I don't say this so much to say "you should change!" but to say, "Hmm: what's causing this?" As I say, I don't tend to buy simple victims vs. oppressors formulae for most human interactions outside of institutions bent on total domination. Partly I think it is your probably accurate perception of holding a minority on this board. Partly I think it is your perception of holding a minority opinion in the "real world" (less accurate, I think, but I suspect we'll disagree on that point).
And partly, it is a bullheaded approach to debate in a forum where you don't have years of history. History matters--that's practically my mantra. It's coming to a head now because as a community we're trying to sort out how to understand what it really means to make barbelith a place that's really not dismissive of women, women's experiences.
I also, however, understand that feeling of "If I admit even a small crack in my argumentation these people will be all over me like flies on a carcass and the entire legitimacy of my point will be tossed out like so much rotten meat." I know that feeling, well, because I share it: feminism is so under fire, from my perspective, in the broader culture (I know you disagree) that I have a feeling I'm sometimes setting my feet in cement because otherwise I'll lose the tug of war.
The frustrating thing is that then I'm stuck with seeing the situation as only a tug of war--not a dance, not a fencing match--and I've got cement blocks for feet.
The stakes, for me, are high: people's lives. And the stakes for you are people's lives, too, this makes it feel risky to change metaphors midstream.
I think that's why I accept more of your anger, where I have had less time for other posters' anger expressed in sexist, racist, or whateverist ways:
when people feel that lives are at stake based on the way the argument they're making plays out in the larger culture, and that their position is heavily under seige, we all tend to pull out all the guns we can find to defend the position. That doesn't absolve us from responsibility, but it certainly makes our outlashing more understandable.
Now, your statement above strikes me as like when fundamentalists claim that they "hate the sin of homosexuality not homosexuals." Most gays, lesbians, bis etc. aren't buying it. I think they are reasonable for not buying it. I don't buy that it's so easy to separate out all the things (anti-feminism, anti-feminist politics) that you say you can readily separate out. And I do firmly believe that you underestimate the degree to which women and feminism are under fire. I can only ask that you try to imagine the possibility that I'm right, as I am trying to respectfully and without condescension imagine your position, here, in this posting. (With the understanding that you should feel free to correct me if I've misimagined your position, of course.)
So, yes, I do believe that feminists do have something to teach you, BUT I also believe that father's rights advocates have something to teach me. If, after this grilling, you are still interested in engaging this board, I hope you'll choose to work from the more reflective part of yourself that I believe is actually there, because I've seen it in your PMs and other postings, and I do believe that the more you can free yourself to work with that part, you'll gain more respect and may actually more accurately reflect in your writings your real beliefs. (I say that based on experience: when my feet are set in cement, I often find myself arguing things I don't actually QUITE believe, but feel I must because of where my feet have been planted).
I know you don't fully trust the board at this point, but I hope you'll give it a try anyway. |
