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What exactly does get you banned on Barbelith?

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22:22 / 09.03.06

I think he's describing feminism as "what's being said", which is thumbs-up... and feminist politics as "how and why it's being said", which he feels is (like most politics) disingenuous.

ShadowSax, am I correct in that assumption?

ONLY NICE THINGS

07:43 / 10.03.06

Nah. First up, it's an incoherent distinction that he has just made up to try to muddy the issue. Second up, there are no "feminist politicians" in the way there are Democratic and Republican politicians - in fact, if you can show me a single politician who has been elected in the US by asserting that feminist principles are their key election strategy, I'd be surprised and delighted.

If Shadowsax can be said to have an ideology, it roughly maps to Qwik's doctrine of true actual feminism - that is, that he is prepared to accept any activities by and for women that he personally does not feel threatened by as valid, while identifying anything outside that comfort zone as lunatic and corrupt.

13:05 / 10.03.06

while it's perhaps fun as a parlor game to define one's idealogy based on a few pointed statements, it really nothing but speculation.

the tone of haus's comments and the deadhorsebeating nature of "but what about this" and "but what about that" make this uninteresting to me. any further attempts to analyze my political or social worldview will have to be done in the context of other threads. that is, if they want to include me as a participant. if you want to go on with your detached speculation, feel free.

ONLY NICE THINGS

13:20 / 10.03.06

Well, you mainly seem to post saying that you're not going to post any more, so that's cool.

So, back at the ranch, we're still looking at how we handle bad behaviour that does not come under the specific remit of trolling (or does so because of maladaptive behaviour rather than malice), and is not the things that so far have been identified as bannable offences (id est, homophobic abuse and Holocaust denial)... what if people are not susceptible to social pressuere, which often they aren't?

ONLY NICE THINGS

07:59 / 16.03.06

Ah. As if to clear our pallettes, our old chum Vladimir J Baptiste is back. Again, an example of unrepentant racism being tolerated by Barbelith, if not actively encouraged - can somebody explain to me one more time why this is OK when homophobic abuse (quo vide Hawksmoor) is not? Especially if the answer is not "there are more gay and lesbian users of Barbelith than users of Barbelith of South Asian descent...

Less searchable M0rd4nt

08:08 / 16.03.06

Just for reference.

08:19 / 16.03.06

Are you talking about a new outburst, Haus? Or referring to the old one? Because, if the former, part of the answer to your question might lie in the fact that Hawksmoor's homophobia and trolling were sustained and repeated. Vlad doesn't seem to be following the same pattern - though I'm willing to be corrected on this point.

ONLY NICE THINGS

08:49 / 16.03.06

Hawksmoor's homophobia was limited to a small number of threads, though - he made a homophobic remark, he was asked to desist, he continued. Vlad's pattern is about the same. He'll call women bitches, make a joke about syphilitic Indians, refuse to acknowledge wrongdoing, reserve the right to do so again whenever he feels like it. Short of actually trotting out emic reality tunnels, it's pretty close to the boy Sensitive's recent travails. Now, if the boy could admit that there are reasons to find his conduct offensive apart from being "humorless", acknowledge that he spoke unwisely and undertake not to do it again, well and goood. As it is we have somebody wandering around who will indulge in racist banter on a whim, and refuse to accept that there is any good reason why he should not.

This strikes me as an undesirable quantity to have on Barbelith.

09:05 / 16.03.06

Reality tunnel.

Give him a break, Haus. It’s tough being a genius.

ONLY NICE THINGS

09:11 / 16.03.06

Somebody just used Google Search for evil, didn't they?

09:35 / 16.03.06

His own ability to take a joke in good humour came from memory. His reality tunnel was just serendipity.

14:25 / 16.03.06

In terms of banning people - probably the main reason the person in question hasn't been banned (and I say this having not explored the case at all) is because I didn't come in and do something clumsy and stupid without talking to the rest of the board. Which is probably a good thing. However, if you guys come to mostly-agreement that he needs to go (or want me to come in at any point to give my opinion) then I'll support the decision.

16:28 / 16.03.06

I'm trying to put myself in the position of a Vlad or Pyewacket or whatever. Most recently, moneyshot took some issue with my user name at the time, Dirty Ho. I thought I had perfectly good reasons for using the name, but I'd have wandered into questionable territory if I had:

A) said he had no sense of humor, with the attending implication that the only reason anybody could take issue would be because there was something wrong with them (ad hominem)

B) said he just didn't 'get' it, which is really a variation on A

C) been unwilling to explain why I chose the name (refusal to engage)

D) been unwilling, if I couldn't come to an agreement, to change my name out of consideration for others (discourtesy)

Those are behaviors that I certainly felt tempted by -- I thought my name was funny, I had reasons other than the comedy value for using it, I felt a bit put upon when challenged about it, and I didn't particularly want to change. I think we should consider, if not banning somebody outright, at least enforcing a cooling-off period by disabling the account. Such a cooling-off period would spare the rest of us while the person in question decides whether to resist temptation.

I wanted to post this lest people being called up get the feeling that they're the only ones to have felt attacked. Feeling attacked doesn't have to be the end of things.

16:48 / 16.03.06

quite.
similar reasons may be behind haus' not reminding everyone i once used the word 'feminazi' while he keeps mentioning mr baptiste's offence.

you can fuck up and have it go away, but only if you deal with it.

17:40 / 16.03.06

I think Vlad maybe doesn't want to apologise to you, Haus. In years gone by, I'm sure you irritated me beyond any point of principle... It becomes an ego battle, I think. However, I think it's far from unreasonable for the board to offer an ultimatum of sorts, that:

we will never have to read such insensitive, crass poop from him again (and it would be nice if he demonstrated understanding why it's unacceptable; I'm not asking for an essay here.)

As far as I'm aware this was a single offence but if it isn't isolated, as you suggest, perhaps you could please hit us up with further links. If it is only this, I don't see a problem with receiving a (proper) apology and letting it go. I'd like that.

17:41 / 16.03.06

Which actually seems to be what you've written. Yeah, 'I agree with everything you said', then.

17:51 / 16.03.06

I for one am less interested in apologies or flawless behavior than in visible and least partially effective attempts at change. Too often apologies seem to be a way people have of absolving themselves. I don't expect that people will never fuck up again, I know I wouldn't want to be held to that standard.

17:57 / 16.03.06

I'm not sure how you gauge that change, though. It's not 'flawless' to not use dreadful stereotypes; many people manage this quite constantly, don't they?

Anyway, I've p.m'd Vlad/22:10:12 (?) to let him know about this, and suggested that apologising for the initial offense might be the way to go.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

18:01 / 16.03.06

fred- indeed. An apology should, ideally (in pretty much any walk of life, not just here), be a polite way of drawing attention to an intention to change one's behaviour. Otherwise we're in the realms of "sin like a bastard all your life then confess on your deathbed" Catholicism.

18:04 / 16.03.06

it'll have to be good or it may be too little too late, hey.
he's had over a year, hasnt he?
almost two?
i forget timeframes.
ages, though.
if a mate had been an unforgivable cock in front of me and my other mates and it took hir over a year to apologise....

well, let's just say it would have to be an awesome apology.

18:10 / 16.03.06

Well he did say 'sorry', or 'I said I'm sorry' and then proceed onto some guff about no-one seeing the humour in the dissolution of opposites...? Something like. I didn't see it personally, but I may well be humaton.

So, there was that.

18:16 / 16.03.06

He never even uttered the word "sorry". Certainly not in the thread itself. What he said was:

Heavens, did I stumble upon the humorless thread? We ought to have some sort of in-house icon to signify this. Maybe a grey smiley with a look telegraphing a dour world-weariness often confused with wisdom. Because, you know, I take everyone around here at their word absolutely, especially if they were to use such a ridiculous phrase as "bang locals."

Dipshits.

18:28 / 16.03.06

How about: "And in fact I did apologize for it, though why I was expected to compensate for others' lack of sense for the inherent ridiculousness of extremes is beyond me. But once again, sorry you're a self-important prick."? (as an aside: I got that by googling "pissing contrition", which I'm super-glad to be #1 hit for. There's one other one, but I didn't check it out.)

So, he said he'd said he was sorry, but he hadn't really (or at least I can't find it,) and he wasn't.

ONLY NICE THINGS

18:29 / 16.03.06

He then said "I'm sorry - I'm sorry you suck!", elsewhere. Here, in fact. Although he muffed the line.

ONLY NICE THINGS

18:39 / 16.03.06

Ah. Interpost. Yes, Duncan, that's about right. There's some discussion of what would be satisfactory on that page, also. However, nothing suggests to me that Vladimir is interested in distinguishing between acceptable and unacceptable behaviour, nor that he is actually very interested in what people think about him, unless what they think is "by having this man as a lover, I have truly hit the jackpot!" - anything other than adulation can just be written off as a rigid reality tunnel.

So, there you go. We'll see.

18:53 / 16.03.06

Well, I would like to think the best of people and the p.m. I sent was pretty polite, I think, but I don't imagine reading this part of the thread will engender a lot of warm fuzzies (moreso than those Indian readers of Barbelith occurring upon the orginal quote, though,) but hopefully we can still get some kind of positive response.

19:00 / 16.03.06

Hmm. Maybe he'd like to point out where the apology that he claims he made in the linked post took place.

ONLY NICE THINGS

21:48 / 16.03.06

Sorry, by the way. My mistake. "Skirts", not "bitches".

Back in April while I was participating in the 24 Hour Comic Event I developed something of a groupie while I was drawing. As it happened, we spent a total of at least 8 hours talking, and she brought me a 40 oz. of Heineken (in retrospect, not a great idea when trying to stay up 24 hours). Around 6 am I walked her to the subway and kissed her goodnight. Shortly thereafter we got together at my place and slept together, and again the following night. We then had a couple of "proper" dates, in which nothing more than some making out happened, but things seemed to be going pretty well. I knew she didn't necessarily want a relationship, and neither did I, but we did seem to be well-suited to one another and so I expected this to at very least have a long shelf life. As it happened, though, she disappeared for nearly four weeks, wouldn't respond to either emails or phone calls, and when she did finally call me she cut the call short after only a few minutes. In something of a huff I wrote her that I felt ignored and used and that unless she could demonstrate that she wanted to keep whatever it was we had going I was no longer interested. In typical female style she flipped the script so that somehow it was me who was being unreasonable and needy, and now it was her breaking up with me. Despite an oath to remain friends (to the extent that she still has my copy of INVISIBLES vol. 3), she hasn't returned a phone call or email in about four months now.

Skirts, hah?

Requoted without comment.

04:04 / 17.03.06

Despite an oath to remain friends (to the extent that she still has my copy of INVISIBLES vol. 3), she hasn't returned a phone call or email in about four months now.

I just feel that this bears repeating.

Jawsus-son Starship

07:14 / 17.03.06

This is wierd, because I kind of agree with both sides of the tale. Haus seems to have some kind of vendetta against this guy, but this guys also sounds like THE BIGGEST prick eva!!!1!!! and refuses to apologise for offending people. But then I do wonder if it's just Haus he will refuse to apologise to, since, and this is only going by what I've read in this thread and its links, Haus appears to be the Barbelith Moral Majority.

*

07:29 / 17.03.06

You know, sometimes I see someone say something really stupid and I wait for him to talk because I don't trust myself, in the heat of my anger, to make any sense. Sometimes I see someone say something really stupid and I wait for Haus to find it because I know whether I say anything or not, he will soon enough, so there's really no point in trying to put less expertly what he's about to say with precision and just the right amount of venom to paralyze and not to kill. And sometimes I see someone say something really stupid and I wait for Haus to speak because I know when he does I will find it really funny.

I don't say that any of these impulses are good or noble. But they're there.

Jawsus-son Starship

07:31 / 17.03.06

The guy is a greatest hits album of caustic one liners and scathing come backs.

ONLY NICE THINGS

07:32 / 17.03.06

Read the threads, Math. The apology to the other 5000-odd members of Barbelith was also singularly absent.

If the phrase "the Barbelith Moral Majority" has meaning, you may wish to reveal it. I certainly don't represent the moral tone of Barbelith - otherwise there would be blood in the gutters. In the gutters, I tell you.

*

08:22 / 17.03.06

He also knows what he's on about. I think Haus has taught me more about Barbelith than anyone else on here. Incredibly, I may get a bit snippy with new folks at times, and when I do Haus often shows me up by saying what I should have said if I were a bit nicer.

So, you know, I know you said you've just followed up a few links here and there... Maybe you should do more research before getting yourself into something you won't get any help getting out of.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

08:50 / 17.03.06

The guy is a greatest hits album of caustic one liners and scathing come backs.

The guy also comes in for a considerable degree of stick.

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