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The Ultimates 2

 
  

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_Boboss
15:35 / 06.12.04
i just want to drop in a because that post was well snidey. soz.
 
 
_Boboss
15:48 / 06.12.04
yeh what annoys me is that ult cap is SUCH a cunt, but a couple years after thawing, the original cap was a true soul-warrior, incapable of putting on the flag without it troubling his conscience. he hated being the living embodied champion of america, because all he could be was a man of war, and he hated what that said about his home. none of that yet, he's just a bogeyman for the european readers to hiss at. if there's one title where millar may not fuck it up it's this one, so let's wait and see.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
16:51 / 06.12.04
Been reading some classic Cap stuff recently and to back up Gambit's 'soul-warrior' claim, check out these verbatim angstalogues:

"Okay, so I'm not in the 'now' generation! SO WHAT?..So I belong to the establishment! I'm not gonna knock it! It was that same establishment that gave them a Martin Luther King..a Tolkien..a McLuhan..and a couple of brothers named Kennedy!"

&

"This is the day of the anti-hero..the age of the rebel..and the dissenter! It isn't hip to defend the establishment!..Only to tear it down!"

How's this resolved, I hear you cry. With a fucking great dust up with the Scorpion of course! Excelsior!
 
 
chaos_15
17:03 / 06.12.04
Funny how millar did a great jobon this one, because two weeks ago, after reading his first wolverine issues i was starting to fear for the series. I thought he might be about to give it too much action.
But then I remembered Red Son. And this is just like that. Hedoesn't give you his opinion in a direct way, but you can see what's right and wrong from the way he writes it.
Cap is just shitting around but you know he's doing his best to do what's right.
Thor is a fantastic man. He's my favorite character of the book, but i'm starting to doubt on his godhood.
 
 
Aertho
17:05 / 06.12.04
Cap was frozen in the forties, when he was a celebrity soldier. We don't all need to tread Cap's origin again, but remember that this is a guy who had a clear idea wof who the enemy was, and how to deal with them. There was no moralist gray then -much less a pluralistic sensibility.

I think Millar's representation of the Avengers big three is effing amazing. Showing America to be an absolutist superhuman, but severely out of step with contemporary culture is what real Marvel seems to have forgotten. Thor's whole character is about belief, and what he believes himself to be and what his world really is. Iron Man has confidence and integrity issues? Exactly.

Regarding the muggers scene - Cap will probably get sued and vilified in the media. His country will turn against him.

I went and bought the first two volumes. I love it and though I'm not a big Millar collector, I'd like to say it's some of the best stuff he's done.

One thing though: I want more of the secret ops team. What makes Natasha, Clint, Pietro and Wanda tick?
 
 
FinderWolf
17:21 / 06.12.04
Yeah, we've gotten almost nothing of Clint and barely anything of Natasha. Pretty much zilch exposure to Wanda and Pietro (I didn't read ULTIMATE WAR cause it looked like it sucked; I think Wanda & Pietro got a bit more play in that mini). Millar has gone on in interviews about how Wanda and Pietro have a 'post-human relationship' - i.e. they're brother and sister but lovers, Millar seems to imply for that for superheroes, incest is OK and cool, but we've never seen this explicitly stated in the series.

We do need more of these characters, definitely. I worry that they'll get lost in the shuffle when the Ult. Defenders, Europe's answer to the Ultimates, show up (Millar has teased this in interviews). But the Black Widow & Tony plot Millar has also spoken about many times in interviews is about to happen as well (Tony falls for her and we ask the musical question, did she kill her previous husbands like an honest-to-gosh Black Widow?).

So who do we think leaked the Bruce Banner info. to the public? Thor? "Ultimate Loki", to mess with Thor and turn people against the superheroes?
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
10:58 / 08.12.04
i like the wordy issues where the ultimates are meeting up, walking sound, attending events.

i likem better than the scrap comics (ones with big fights, like that one against the hulk) but the scrap comics are also good.

this comic is your Ulti-mate.

the good thing is we know that millar will bring in a character who will fight cap america and really beat him badly such that many fans will get a hardon during the fight.

the better fighter will also be better looking.

that better fighter

is me.

Fight me!!
 
 
Haus of Mystery
12:02 / 08.12.04

i like the wordy issues where the ultimates are meeting up, walking sound, attending events...

i likem better than the scrap comics


Liar.
 
 
The Natural Way
14:27 / 08.12.04
The Ultimates certainly will see Loki. The idea that one of the biggest, baddest Avengers baddies wouldn't show up in the flesh is ridiculous. At least for a writer as literal as Millar.

Millar's on record stating that book 2 will deal with Clint quite closely.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
14:27 / 08.12.04
hey, i said, 'walking sound'

nice!
 
 
_Boboss
14:41 / 08.12.04
they're desperate for new aven sorry ultimates innit? so that wifie of clint's there, is she gonna get herself a couple of world-saving kali sticks, a carnival oufit/masque and join up? that would be cool. i can juggle a bit, and i've got a yoyo, do you reckon i could get in the ultimates? been thinking of a career change.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
14:59 / 08.12.04
Funny note, per the script, that was supposed to be Tony and Natasha. I guess post a coloring mishap they changed it to Clint.
 
 
diz
12:08 / 09.12.04
Jan's betraying her husband? Her abusive wacked out husband who she's now separated from? Golly, I see now why Jan is evil.

i think the adultery thing is a non-issue, considering the horrific abuse - no, let's go one step further and say torture - that Hank inflicted on her. it's possible that this is just "rough play that's gotten out of hand," but if so, than man, Jan has issues.

however, the point about betraying her species is right on. she's happily working for the same people who, not so very long ago, had Sentinels patrolling the cities and killing mutants on sight, and allowing them to do experiments on her so they can develop their own superpeople.

because, let's face it, in the Ultimateverse, the super-soldier project is about two things: protecting and extending American hegemony (remember the Pakistani super-people program Weapon X shut down? it wouldn't do to let the brown people have superpowers...) and keeping the mutants in line.

toward that end, it seems that any amount of "collateral damage" is acceptable, and cover-ups of government involvement in the origins of pretty much every super-villain from the Green Goblin to the Hulk are routine. also covered up are the fact that the government is conducting medical experiments on captured, unwilling subjects (Ultimate Six) and is harboring Banner and probably also Pym.

considering all this, the fact that Jan (a closeted mutant) is happy to suck the Man's dick (quite literally) to keep her cozy spot with the regime is morally questionable to say the least.
 
 
_Boboss
12:16 / 09.12.04
i don't think there's much evidence for pre-meditation, hence torture's a difficult word there. they were fighting, he won and went rather far, but he didn't do any sadistic chuckling or any of the other things torture-happy villains ought to do.
 
 
FinderWolf
12:25 / 09.12.04
Yeah, I noticed that "Hawkeye's" bedmate looked a lot like Natasha. But then I figured "ah well, Hawk's wife just has similar hair." Or that it was a mistake. Millar has emphasized in interviews that Hawkeye is happily married (and he called his wife before the big battle in Vol. I, a cool little detail, I thought). Interesting that it was supposed to have been Tony (look at how the male in that shot, whoever he is, is splayed out face down looking exhausted/drunk/shot).

Yawn's posts were pure barbelith joy.
 
 
fluid_state
12:29 / 09.12.04
Dunno 'bout all'dat.

Jan does have issues. Betty Ross alludes to them in the first volume, as does Hank Pym (his wife goes larval and lays eggs?? sweet christmas!); insofar as "betraying her own species" is concerned, well, one persons betrayal is another's peace process is another's self-preservation instinct.

And Cap? Man, I love Cap, Year One, such as he is in the Ultimates. There's this weight of "regular continuity" Cap that can't help but be explored with depth here. I can't wait to see him quit, or get fired. There is a precedent for this, and I think they're laying the groundwork for this with a good deal of subtlety. Ultimate Six implies he's pretty unimpressed with the fruits of the Super-Soldier program, like Norman Osborn and a whole host of homicidal, psychotic metahumans. His inability to wrap his "Yessir, No sir" brain around 21st century journalistic ethics (bwah-ha-ha) is pretty telling; He's the original man of action, and there's not going to be much warning when he does make an ethical decision that goes against the grain. Or so I hope, anyway.

More martini-swilling Tony, that's what I say. Not losing it, just being fucking dashing and soused for the rest of this volume, and I'm sufficiently amused.
 
 
FinderWolf
16:52 / 09.12.04
Millar has a lenghty, interesting interview now up over at pop culture shock, where he talks about pretty much everything, including saying that "Vertigo is a ghetto now" and how much he wants to do the regular Superman book with Hitch so they can get it right (hint hint DC):

http://www.popcultureshock.com/features.php?id=874
 
 
_Boboss
08:29 / 16.12.04
read the further adventures of everyone's favourite ult-soak and corporate stooge in the new year!

it's written by orson scott card, one of those sf writers whose rubbish books may be judged by the cover despite that, he's obviously a great, great bloke.
 
 
Spaniel
10:16 / 16.12.04
He really, really is.

Wow, I'm definitely gonna buy this book"!!""!"!£"£$£"%^£%&$&*
 
 
FinderWolf
13:34 / 16.12.04
from the link above , an essay by Orson Scott Card on homosexuality:

>> The hypocrites of homosexuality are, of course, already preparing to answer these statements by accusing me of homophobia, gay-bashing, bigotry, intolerance; but nothing that I have said here -- and nothing that has been said by any of the prophets or any of the Church leaders who have dealt with this issue -- can be construed as advocating, encouraging, or even allowing harsh personal treatment of individuals who are unable to resist the temptation to have sexual relations with persons of the same sex. On the contrary, the teachings of the Lord are clear in regard to the way we must deal with sinners. Christ treated them with compassion -- as long as they confessed that their sin was a sin. Only when they attempted to pretend that their sin was righteousness did he harshly name them for what they were: fools, hypocrites, sinners. Hypocrites because they were unwilling to change their behavior and instead attempted to change the law to fit it; fools because they thought that deceiving an easily deceivable society would achieve the impossible goal of also deceiving God.

>> The Church has plenty of room for individuals who are struggling to overcome their temptation toward homosexual behavior.

I'm so glad that some churches are accepting of those sinning deviant homosexuals who are unable to resist their perverted urges.

What an asshole.
 
 
neuepunk
16:45 / 16.12.04
I'm still boiling about this whole "muggers get what they deserve" idea. The point of the comic, although off-panel, was that it was great fun for superheroes to be able to confront the criminals. The point of self defense isn't revenge or some sort of mob "justice," it's only self defense. Justice is reserved for the court system. Captain America beating the hell out of a couple muggers isn't equal to Joe Shmoe defending himself; it's like bringing a gun to a boxing match. The muggers could have been easily subdued in the blink of an eye and taken to the police -- it'd be the responsible, rational thing to do for anyone who genuinely believes in the system.

Captain America probably still believes himself to actually be the system, and probably above law. The man was turned into a living weapon and used solely in that regard in his pre-frozen life, and it doesn't look like things have changed. It's interesting that he found himself so superior to the "failed" super soldier experiments. Justice through superiority?
 
 
Aertho
04:40 / 20.12.04
What What What?

Surfing lead me to a cover of Ultimates with Captain America flanked by and Ultimatized Captain Britain. Does anyone have any info on that? whether it's Brian Braddock, and if he's related to deceased Betsy from UltXM... I ownder if it'll be magic-based, and how Millar will resolve that in his "Captain"-critique of America and Britain.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:50 / 20.12.04
Ult. Capt. Britain is coming indeed, Millar has said as much in interviews. However, I haven't seen the pic you saw while surfing.

Ult. Betsy Braddock was introduced in Millar's Ult. X-Men Phoeni/Hellfire Club story a while back.
 
 
A beautiful tunnel of ghosts
14:47 / 20.12.04
Your picture is here, gentlemen.
 
 
FinderWolf
17:36 / 21.12.04
Thanks -

Should we start a new thread for issue 2, or just make this the Vol. 2 in general thread?

Cause there's a preview of issue 2 here:

http://www.newsarama.com/pages/Marvel/ULtimates2_2.htm
 
 
diz
18:06 / 21.12.04
i really like Jarvis as a snarky old queen.
 
 
Spaniel
18:10 / 21.12.04
Who dose guys with Captain (yay!) Britain?
 
 
Billuccho!
20:20 / 21.12.04
First page of that preview of #2 has Iron Man referring to a fish that looks like Ernest Borgnine. Hee hee. Do I hear a "Da Fug" anywhere?
 
 
Spaniel
14:18 / 28.12.04
According to the publicity blurb, the Ultimates are going to attempt to bring in Thor.

Bloody knew it.
 
 
Bard: One-Man Humaton Hoedown
02:13 / 30.12.04

Jan's betraying her husband? Her abusive wacked out husband who she's now separated from? Golly, I see now why Jan is evil.

i think the adultery thing is a non-issue, considering the horrific abuse - no, let's go one step further and say torture - that Hank inflicted on her. it's possible that this is just "rough play that's gotten out of hand," but if so, than man, Jan has issues.


I think the thing that has to be understood here is that Jan's reaction is, IIRC (and feel free to flame my ass if I'm wrong here), a common one within abusive relationships. If the abusive partner goes through violent cycles (Hank really seems to be a manic-depressive, almost) with long breaks between bouts of intense abuse, the abused partner may well stick around because, as Jan said, "the good times outweighed the bad". It can be an incredibly hard cycle to break out of; some people do, some people don't. Some people get out before it goes to the extreme...and some people, like Jan, stay in it until they're nearly killed.

However, I completly agree that what Hank did to her was nothing short of torture. Shit, the guy attacked her with creatures several times her size, with poisonous bites, in large numbers, after essentially blasting her with mustard gas. She shrunk down, he blasted her with RAID and then sicked a small legion of ants on her. As stated, she was only alive because growing back to human size is a reflex for her when she goes unconcious (or something in that regard). Hank is, honestly I think, not fit for being a super-hero. The guy should be on some serious medication (well, ok, that describes about half the Ultimates anyway).

It's not really surprising, then, that she'd go to Cap. Cap, first off, beat the living shit out of Hank (when the bastard was 30 feet tall, no less), out of some weird sense of chivalry. He was also pretty charming with her, has that 1940s naievete going...not to mention the fact that he's gorgeous. He's also a strong figure who doesn't show the same degree of instability that Hank had in his private relationships with Jan. What's going to be interesting to see is if Jan will rationalize what happened with Hank and go back to him, or if she'll never want anything to do with him again.

Now, I haven't read much past the end of the second TPB, so I can't really speak for whats going on in the new issues. As I said above, feel free to flame me around if I'm wrong about what I said above. But that's how I see things on this issue in the book. While its disturbing, I think Millar handled it well (better than he handled stuff in the Authority, that's for sure). I find the Ultimates to be a well written book where Millar is able to express his views towards more modern and "realistic" interpretations of superheroes. It comes off a lot better than his run on the Authority, which was heavy handed and clumsy at times, and diverged quite a bit from what Ellis had established in his run (though Frank Quitely's artwork didn't help).
 
 
FinderWolf
12:14 / 11.01.05
issue 2 out tomorrow! Yay!
 
 
The Falcon
00:54 / 12.01.05
Hank is on serious medication.

It's actually a fairly recurrent theme in Millar's American stuff - loads of Ults. v.1 and Spider-Man have these odd, pill-pop (or that weird 'tic-tacs' panel, around #9 or so of the former) panel-breaks.

I think it's intended as a bit of satire on the whole US of A, actually, and I am - for the moment - quite approving.

Until I'm told I oughtn't. Here, the new Wolverine was really, actually really good. I think he's channeling a lot of the Barb's other hot topic, his namesake Frank, into it. JRJr doesn't hurt, obviously.
 
 
Spaniel
12:54 / 12.01.05
issue 2 out tomorrow! Yay!

Fucking, fighting good, my friends!
 
 
FinderWolf
13:49 / 12.01.05
Millar is channeling "Frank"? Um, do you mean Millar is channeling Frank Quitely? Or the Punisher, who is not a Barb hot topic?
 
 
diz
13:52 / 12.01.05
i think he means Frank MillER, because his last name looks like MillAR, even though they are pronounced differently.
 
  

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