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Big Brother 2004

 
  

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Warewullf
10:19 / 09.08.04
she's gonna be on BBLB

But that must be finished, yeah? What's the point of BBLB without BB?
 
 
Ganesh
10:49 / 09.08.04
So, baring in mind I only watched the last forty-five minutes of the entire thing, every time someone's got voted out has Davina eagerly asked them whether they had guessed Nadia was a transsexual?

It was certainly a regular question with the first few evictions (although I think she phrased it as "Nadia used to be a man" rather than using the word 'transsexual') but it didn't feature after, I think, Marco - and reappeared only on the final night. Not sure why it was dropped: perhaps there was concern that Ahmed, Victor et al might react in a less-than-entiiirely-positive manner, or perhaps (outside bet, this one) Endemol realised it was a somewhat salacious 'did you spot the freak' question.

And big boo's for the Independent on Sunday, for their profile of Nadia.

Well, I suspect there'll be plenty of this stuff: Littlejohn may have cornered the market in creepily-obsessed homo-bashing, but transpeople are still fair game for any columnist keen for a little Bindel-style notoriety - and there's invariably something of an annual scramble to occupy the 'Big Brother is cruel and inhuman' moral high ground. Combine the two, add a good, punchable straw man ("... a new flexi-sex Britain in which there will be no more gay bashing") and Bob's your uncle! Or - ho ho - your auntie.

The Independent on Sunday piece is making the tired old point that Big Brother is a freakshow, ergo we're voting for freaks. I think that's rather a glib conclusion to reach. The difference between Big Brother and the notional Victorian entertainments to which it's repeatedly compared is its length of engagement: in the early days, yes it is about pointing and laughing at the funny people, but as the show progresses, we stay with them, we get to know them better, they become more than a handful of personality tics.

In the first week or two, it may be about freak-potential, but, later, it becomes about narrative; we vote for the housemate with the most interesting story. This year, it was Nadia.

if the 'people's favourite' doesn't face up to 'her responsibility' to talk to the people through their newspapers, that support could turn against her very quickly.

She's done an interview in, I think, the Mirror, and I'm sure there'll be the inevitable Heat splurge. I'm not sure what Nadia intends to do next; whether she wants to be 'famous' at all. Part of her appeal in the house was the fact that she didn't appear to be trying to represent anyone other than herself.

From what I've seen and read I understand she considers herself a woman and not a TS-woman, which brings me back to the question of Davina's questions again, I wonder how happy she will be if she sees the media coverage of her whilst she was in.

She's stated "I am a woman", but I don't think she's made a conscious distinction between 'woman' and 'transwoman'. I don't think she's used the word 'transsexual' herself, but she seems happy enough to discuss her transition (via Charing Cross GIC, with the 2-year Real Life Test, apparently) and, in the bigger picture, she certainly couldn't be accused of 'going stealth'.

From what I can see, she seems to take the 'I was a man, now I'm a woman' line. I think the fact that people (my mother!) are even discussing where 'transsexual' and 'transwoman' fit into this is something of a coup.
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
11:07 / 09.08.04
She certainly feels (to me at least) the most "worthy" of the Big Brother winners.
She's gone through a trial for her womanhood, a test in the house to see if she can be accepted as a "real" woman. In there she won.
Out here, with us all knowing the big secret, it was a different trial but still one that ended up with her winning as a woman rather than a transexual.

Do I have rose tinted glasses?
 
 
Ganesh
11:11 / 09.08.04
nadia is a dreadful bore now she's out the house.

Yeah, she cornered me at the checkout in Tescos just yesterday, and, Christ, was I soon stifling yawns and glancing at my watch?! Crashing bore, that woman.

Unsurprisingly like every other Big Brother winner ever, then.

Get another feeling that Alan Moore (or maybe Neil Gaiman) could write a story set in say, Elizabethan England, where some transexual is involved in a royal court competition an she captures the imagination of the king and the public and she ends up becoming Queen or summat. And then she dies 17 years later and tales of gender-adventures are forgotten until the next confluence of transexual-friendly variables is brewed.

And Queene Nadia's gender-adventures could be watched on some sort of 'magic lantern' viewing device by the millions of commoners in Merrie Olde Englande (who'd then knowe and understande more about the travails of transsexuals), and the 5000-odd other transsexual Britons'd watch (and talk about it on some sort of coal-powered InterWebbe) and be filled with goode cheere, and take hearte in Queene Nadia's apparent acceptance, and be encouraged to get their own status recognised by Parliament, etc., etc.

I was at an eviction ‘party on Friday and I was startled at the amount of people who heralded this as a massive event in British culture – I had to correct them - it’s a massive event in British media culture.

It's certainly the latter - and although "massive" is stretching it, I'd argue that it's the former too. The phenomena are, after all, not unconnected (visibility, positive representation and all that).

I yawned, skinned up, went for a pish, didn’t wash my hands then helped myself to some salted nuts.

You scamp. You should've growled 'fucken'' a bit, bronzed your buttocks, power-lifted a chair (with your 'sex face' on), donned a white towelling bathrobe and headed off to the 'snoog'.
 
 
Bear
11:20 / 09.08.04
Did anyone else hear that the voice of big brother (the Jason you have been evicited one) is Chris Moyles, strange eh.

Guys an idiot though, someone sent his show a text the other day complaining about the way he was talking about Nadia and he went off on one about her still being a bloke etc...

I see a global big brother for next years show.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
12:03 / 09.08.04
yeah, media and culture are 'suck-facing' each other, Ganesh, I know.
but info-saturation n all that - it'll be impossible for most brains to remember much of this show in a few months, let alone a few years, time.

"oh, aye, the spanish transvestite! - ha ha, remember her laugh!?"

"and that wee asylum prick - muslim wasn't he."

"the scottish guy?"

"in the robes?"

"I thought he was irish."

ahhh, pop culture!
 
 
electricinca
12:20 / 09.08.04
... and onward limps this brave thread to its 50-page destiny...

My poor dyslexic eyes read this as 50-page density.

Now to the serious stuff.

The BB reuniuon barbeque. Odd to see Kitten there and fulfilling her contractual obligation and not to see Jason. Michelle and Stuart's body language seemed natural and not put on for the cameras. I can see them continuing to date but I'm sure we will not be getting another BB wedding from it. Stu was oddly touched to receive an urn containing the cremated remains of Jonny Horizontal's hat. Victor put on quite a 'turn of speed' racing Dermot to the diary room for a man with an arse the size of a Volvo.

Good stuff although like always it left me wanting more.
 
 
Ganesh
12:23 / 09.08.04
it'll be impossible for most brains to remember much of this show in a few months, let alone a few years, time.

Sure - but people who've never met (and are perhaps unlikely ever to meet) a transgendered person are going to have one more point of reference, a reasonably good one.

Also, while Big Brother is indeed transitory, I see Nadia's win within the context of an ongoing discussion of trans issues which is slowly but surely gaining momentum, the way homo-awareness did in the '80s. The fact that people (and tabloids!) are even discussing the differences between 'transsexual', 'transvestite', 'transwoman', etc. is a Good Thing, I'd say.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:38 / 09.08.04
Absolutely - if pop culture isn't one of the biggest symptoms and causes of shifts in popular attitudes, what is?

It's a challenge to stay optimistic while Moyles is still on the air, but I'm trying...
 
 
Ganesh
12:44 / 09.08.04
I'm sure you meant "shifts" there, Flyboy; Dr Freud is standing by.

Checked back at the unhinged BB conspiracy site but, sadly, it only takes us up as far as Fight Night. We never did see hetero-Marco transform into an animal spirit guide either.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
12:55 / 09.08.04
FLY:

nice typo!

and yes - fly you are right about pop culture and SHIFTS but time and historians (ie. establishment) shifts harder.

Lissen:

I find the argument, 'if one person has been touched by this.....'

or

"we now have one more reference point for transexuals'

a tad tedious.

If you look closely you'll realise big brother is old shit, old, old shit which is treading no new ground.

There are many many reference points going back a long long time.

Take Jason and the Argonauts - a kind of gameshow of greek myths, all the top sqwad together on a 'voyage of discovery' - well, mightn't it have been apt if the BBC remembered, in its Jason and ther Argonauts broadcast last night, to include all the argonauts, rather than just the famous ones, like Hercules . Then, we may have wept at the tale of argonautm Caeneus the Lapith, who according to Michael graves, "had once been a woman."

The amazing thing about pop, fly, is that it seems so important when its happening, almost to the exclusion of everything else.

I can tell you, the transexual who uses the Glasgow Underground to get to work - at best, 'she' will be referred to as 'a nadia', by strangers. maybe even a 'portu-geezer.' At worst, I dinnae wnatae hink aboot it.....

But sadly, in my lifetime anyway, her acceptance by the mainstream will only be allowed to happen if she conforms to a caricature to which the wider society deems appropriate.
 
 
Ganesh
13:24 / 09.08.04
Lissen:

I find the argument, 'if one person has been touched by this.....'

or

"we now have one more reference point for transexuals'

a tad tedious.


*shrug*

And I find being misquoted a tad tedious. I suggested that people who've never met (and perhaps will never meet) a transgendered individual are going to have one more reference point. However tedious you find this, it's true. Stereotypes are a heuristic way of dealing with the world, a useful but limited shorthand. The way to broaden those stereotypes, on an individual basis, is to spend time with members of the stereotyped subset. Well and good, but not possible for everyone. At its best, I think Big Brother can be a sort of substitute for that process: we become moderately intimate with an individual transwoman, and many of our heuristic assumptions are eroded. Not shattered, necessarily, but eroded.

If you look closely you'll realise big brother is old shit, old, old shit which is treading no new ground.

And I maintain that this year's Big Brother actually did break new ground in that it introduced a 'queer continuum' of sorts rather than the more familiar token poof/dyke/tranny-among-straights scenario, centralising alternative sexuality rather than marginalising it. This has been done with fictional homos - most notably in Queer As Folk - but rarely with real ones, and certainly not on this scale, with this level of a) access, b) engagement, and c) saturation.

There are many many reference points going back a long long time.

Take Jason and the Argonauts - a kind of gameshow of greek myths, all the top sqwad together on a 'voyage of discovery' - well, mightn't it have been apt if the BBC remembered, in its Jason and ther Argonauts broadcast last night, to include all the argonauts, rather than just the famous ones, like Hercules . Then, we may have wept at the tale of argonautm Caeneus the Lapith, who according to Michael graves, "had once been a woman."


I don't think anyone's arguing that trans individuals haven't existed throughout history, mythological or otherwise, or that they haven't been the victims of revisionist airbrushing. What hasn't existed is the opportunity to become familiar with, and normalised toward, a real transgendered person over time.

I can tell you, the transexual who uses the Glasgow Underground to get to work - at best, 'she' will be referred to as 'a nadia', by strangers. maybe even a 'portu-geezer.' At worst, I dinnae wnatae hink aboot it.....

Well, I guess people might put scare-quotes around 'she' when they refer to her gender. That'd be pretty shitty.

An alternative way of looking at it would be to suppose that people make a connection with Nadia, think 'and Nadia was, basically, an otherwise unexceptional woman who used to be a man' and view your Glasgow Underground transwoman the same way - whereas not having had the experience to become acquainted with a transperson, even vicariously, they may have lacked sufficient experience to access this level of insight.

But sadly, in my lifetime anyway, her acceptance by the mainstream will only be allowed to happen if she conforms to a caricature to which the wider society deems appropriate.

But Nadia had a good ten weeks of not conforming to stereotypical expectations of transsexualism; people got beyond the purely superficial 'man with his dick chopped off' stereotype, and had the opportunity to engage with the underlying human being complete with human flaws and human motivations.

Just as no-one's likely to expect your Glaswegian transwoman to be a Portuguese chain-smoker, they're not going to expect her to be Nadia. They're going to remember Nadia as an ordinary woman who was once a man, and have a reasonably-sound cognitive framework in which to place the woman they see on the Underground.

I think.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:30 / 09.08.04
If you look closely you'll realise big brother is old shit, old, old shit which is treading no new ground.

Ah! It will all be clear if we look closely.
 
 
Ganesh
13:57 / 09.08.04
What's the point of BBLB without BB?

Lovely Dermot? Given the huge success of this year's format, I'm not too surprised they're milking the last few drops.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
14:04 / 09.08.04
Well, I guess people might put scare-quotes around 'she' when they refer to her gender. That'd be pretty shitty.

Calm down, doctor.


But Nadia had a good ten weeks of not conforming to stereotypical expectations of transsexualism; people got beyond the purely superficial 'man with his dick chopped off' stereotype, and had the opportunity to engage with the underlying human being complete with human flaws and human motivations.

She did. Fags, high heels in the showers, raucous laughter, screeching temper, obsession with body parts, ‘sluttish’ behaviour. Most of Nadia’s behaviour and act was centred around her SECRET transformation – a big in-joke with the British public, that, in my opinion, she knew would be a winner. And despite claiming to be a virgin, actually, no – this aspect is central in fact, she portrayed herself almost exclusively within a sexual framework – someone to have fun with sexually - and this is ultimately limiting the public’s understanding of what a transexual is, can be, might want to be thought off etc.

Just as no-one's likely to expect your Glaswegian transwoman to be a Portuguese chain-smoker, they're not going to expect her to be Nadia. They're going to remember Nadia as an ordinary woman who was once a man, and have a reasonably-sound cognitive framework in which to place the woman they see on the Underground.

I think


I think not. Too much credit is being given to the average punter by the more than average (7.5 inches isn’t it?) Ganesh. To most people, if someone choses to define themselves solely by their sexuality, which could be a fair assessment of Nadia (as well as in-yer-face gayboys, uber-dykes and muscled, soft-brained lads, and laddettes etc.), then that is how they will be viewed, assessed, remembered, considered – and to be honest, it sickens a lot of people, rightly or wrongly.

So, like many of your points on this forum, while highly entertaining and beautifully rendered, is based on assumptions which are neither here nor there until you test them outside Barbelith.

Like down the Brazen Head or something.

we on 50 yet?
 
 
Cat Chant
14:19 / 09.08.04
From the Independent link, Nadia's described as a

still-a-bit-butch transsexual

Because of course no woman, trans or not, could ever want to present as 'a bit butch', and it would be entirely unreasonable for any woman who is a bit butch to expect to be treated as a woman. I'd better stop carrying timber home from Neville's DIY, hadn't I?

Wankers.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
14:35 / 09.08.04
yes. you might chip your fingernails.

anyone notice how feminine Nadia looked on entering, and how a great deal of that feminity had been lost by the end, in a kind of 'pudding blur?'
 
 
Ganesh
14:39 / 09.08.04
Calm down, doctor.

Calm down yourself, [insert witticism here].

She did. Fags, high heels in the showers, raucous laughter, screeching temper, obsession with body parts, ‘sluttish’ behaviour.

None of this separates her from any other Big Brother contestant, and many of these characteristics could equally be ascribed to her nationality (the cliched "Mediterranean temperament") or the exhibitionism that's generally attributed to anyone entering the show.

I'm talking about the central 'bloke in a dress' caricature, as seen in adverts for kitchen roll, breakfast cereal, etc. I think Nadia transcended the cliche in that she was thought of as 'she', even by those housemates who privately derided her appearance.

Most of Nadia’s behaviour and act was centred around her SECRET transformation – a big in-joke with the British public, that, in my opinion, she knew would be a winner.

I'd disagree. I don't think she "knew" she'd win at all. But then, perhaps I'm refusing to see her cunning g*mepl*n...

And despite claiming to be a virgin, actually, no – this aspect is central in fact, she portrayed herself almost exclusively within a sexual framework – someone to have fun with sexually - and this is ultimately limiting the public’s understanding of what a transexual is, can be, might want to be thought off etc.

Again, I disagree. I think she portrayed herself as someone to have fun with, but her interactions with the Harem, in particular, were notable for their relative sexlessness. Sure, they were sexual in the way that Big Brother is generally sexual (full of buffer-than-average twentysomethings who strip off and wrestle at the earliest opportunity) but I don't think Nadia stood out in that regard. She pushed glamour, certainly, but I don't think that necessarily maps onto "almost exclusively within a sexual framework" in a straightforward sense.

Limiting to transsexuals? Well, pretty much any single individual is going to prove limiting if they're charged with representing the entirety of a particular subgroup, particularly on Big Brother. As I say, she's unlikely to shatter stereotypes, but I think having become acquainted with her onscreen will, ultimately, have eroded more stereotypes than it'll have perpetuated.

I think not. Too much credit is being given to the average punter by the more than average

And I think you're undercrediting the "average punter". I'd hazard that neither of us has an empathic hotline to the Authentic Voice Of The Man On The Street, but I've certainly talked to a lot of transsexuals, their relatives and friends about the attitudes which are voiced toward them. That's what I'm basing my speculation on - that and the usual meedja browsing.

To most people, if someone choses to define themselves solely by their sexuality, which could be a fair assessment of Nadia (as well as in-yer-face gayboys, uber-dykes and muscled, soft-brained lads, and laddettes etc.), then that is how they will be viewed, assessed, remembered, considered – and to be honest, it sickens a lot of people, rightly or wrongly.

And, as I've said, I don't think that's necessarily an accurate assessment of Nadia. I think it's fairer to say she defines herself strongly in terms of the female gender (which is, perhaps, understandable in someone a matter of months post-GRS) and this overlaps with her sexuality - but I think we also saw plenty of Nadia when her mode wasn't 'sexy': when she was happy, sullen, stroppy, miserable, lairy, etc., etc.

So, like many of your points on this forum, while highly entertaining and beautifully rendered, is based on assumptions which are neither here nor there until you test them outside Barbelith.

Kinda like your assumptions, then? As I say, my own speculations are, in part, based on the recounted experiences of a large number of transgendered individuals (some of whom may even use public transport) and those who know them - and the stuff on stigma and stereotyping from the ol' psychology textbooks.

Like down the Brazen Head or something.

That'd be a pub, would it? Mmmm... gritty...
 
 
Ganesh
14:41 / 09.08.04
anyone notice how feminine Nadia looked on entering, and how a great deal of that feminity had been lost by the end, in a kind of 'pudding blur?'

She was certainly more styled when she went in, and looked fatter and sweatier when she came out. I'm not sure she necessarily looked less feminine, though.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
14:47 / 09.08.04
I'll argue no further, although we've both failed to persuade the other.

Just one point tho - seeing as we both get so upset at misquotations and misprepresentations:

I said, she knew her secret would be A WINNER with the audience - not that she knew she'd win the show.

There is a marked difference.

Anyhow - don't you think that you've been a little bit inflexible regarding J's personality - I think his final few performances - Wed night, Thursday night, and sitting it out with the losers and winner on friday night, and his dismissal of Davina and relative hmour in front of a baying crowd - well, I think he did alright.

I've found people's hostility towards him to be more revealing about their personalities than any comment said persons may have made about Jason.
 
 
Ganesh
14:58 / 09.08.04
I said, she knew her secret would be A WINNER with the audience - not that she knew she'd win the show.

There is a marked difference.


My apologies. I agree that she probably was aware of the widespread fascination with individuals who've changed sex (although this could've gone either way - toward condemnation or ridicule - as I suspect she feared). I don't think that's why she didn't tell her housemates, though.

Anyhow - don't you think that you've been a little bit inflexible regarding J's personality - I think his final few performances - Wed night, Thursday night, and sitting it out with the losers and winner on friday night, and his dismissal of Davina and relative hmour in front of a baying crowd - well, I think he did alright.

No, I don't think I've been inflexible regarding his personality. I think he "did alright" too, given his obvious hang-ups (many of which, I suspect, stem from his experience of foster-care). I don't think of him as a bad, person, particularly - more an insecure person who's dealt with (and continues to deal with) his insecurity in a way which, increasingly, isn't working for him. Which is the tragic part.

I've found people's hostility towards him to be more revealing about their personalities than any comment said persons may have made about Jason.

Bully for you. I don't feel particularly hostile toward him. Frustrated, certainly, in a you-don't-wanna-do-that kinda way, but not hostile.
 
 
Ganesh
16:02 / 09.08.04
Out here, with us all knowing the big secret, it was a different trial but still one that ended up with her winning as a woman rather than a transexual.

I think it's both. I reckon she won because she had the most engaging narrative, and, obviously, the biggest element of that narrative is the fact of Nadia having been born male - so in that sense, her being trans is instrumental in her win. However, I also think that, over the course of ten weeks on our screens, she successfully communicated her personality and persona to the extent that viewers think of her unequivocally as 'she'.

At least, I think that's the case. I've dictated my share of letters on male-to-female transsexuals, and I'm aware that I sometimes slip, unconsciously, into using a male gender pronoun, and have to correct myself; other times, that doesn't happen at all. I reckon it's as good a way as any of gauging my own unconscious response to someone's projected gender. With Nadia, there was no self-correction: I automatically thought (and wrote) 'she' and 'her'. Talking with friends, relatives and colleagues, I've never yet noticed anyone accidentally say 'he' or 'him'. Does anyone else think of Nadia - consciously or unconsciously - as male?

So... in a 'water-cooler' sense, I believe Nadia's won as a woman. She won't escape the 'transsexual winner of Big Brother' label, but the strength of her female persona is such that, IMHO, she's thought of very much as 'she', with little or no cognitive dissonance.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
21:25 / 09.08.04
I don't think that's why she didn't tell her housemates though

Well a friend of mine reckons Nadia went on the show in the first place to see if she could " pass " as a woman in that specific environment, under that level of scrutiny, and that in this respect, the reaction from the other housemates was much more important to her than the UK public's. Don't know if she's said as much herself, but that sounds about right to me. It would also explain why she's so far seemed a bit camera-shy, which is otherwise a little ironic really.
 
 
Ganesh
21:32 / 09.08.04
I agree that Nadia's Big Brother time was, in part, an experiment in 'passing' - although I'm not sure she necessarily planned it that way. I think she said, just before going in, that she hadn't decided whether or not to disclose her past to the others, which suggests her 'stealth' approach wasn't entirely worked out in advance.

(BTW, that quote of mine should read 'didn't' rather than 'did'.)
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
22:50 / 09.08.04
I found Nadia's win incredibly moving, and on the 'real life impact', how about the impact on an isolated, lonely, terrified teenager who thinks that they might be transgendered?

They're trying to figure out how on earth to put their feelings into words even when talking to people they think will be sympathetic.

Being able to say 'well, you know that Nadia on BB', in the knowledge that 75% of voters from a ratings-slaughtering TV show liked her, is likely to be a massive help.

It's not up to her to be a total portrait of transgendered people, but by doing things her way, she has provided a valued, contemporary, famous example that a vulnerable person could relate to/use....


Beyond her trans-ness(crikey, there's more to her?), her win was immensely touching to me in terms of it working against her huge fears of rejection by society. It was an incredibly (personally, I'd never have taken such a risk. Think there was some desperation in there.) high-risk gamble with her deep need for acceptance as stake. yowch.

Rejection would have been crushing, acceptance has destroyed her conceptual universe. Wherein its just a matter of time until people reject her/find her out and vilify her.

I imagine it's going to be an exciting but massive pyschic wrench to step on the ruins of that universe and see what lies beyond. Potentially pretty scary stuff. I wish her well, and consider her to be a hell of a brave person.


But I found Davina's 'revelation' of her 'secret' progressively more sickening. It wasn't her secret to tell, especially in the situation with the last two evictions, where we saw her inside the house, unaware that the decision to tell the people she'd spent living with had been repeatedly taken away from her.



Oh, and the Jason 'Gay Bar' montage was brilliantly done.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
23:04 / 09.08.04
The difference between Big Brother and the notional Victorian entertainments [...]is its length of engagement: in the early days, yes it is about pointing and laughing at the funny people, but as the show progresses, we stay with them, we get to know them better, they become more than a handful of personality tics.

To the point that people will travel down to the studio to cheer for their favourites. Does one give up one's day, spend money, make banners and travel across country just to peer at a freak? Week after week?

That Indy article was vile, transphobia masquerading as social comment. But it's a toss up as to whether the transphobia or the 'let me enlightenedly explain how the sheeple viewers think' was the more offensive slant. I'd say the article is poisonously misanthropic as much as it undoubtedly is specfically transphobic.
 
 
h1ppychick
10:30 / 10.08.04
So, ...every time someone's got voted out has Davina eagerly asked them whether they had guessed Nadia was a transsexual?

...It was certainly a regular question with the first few evictions (although I think she phrased it as "Nadia used to be a man" rather than using the word 'transsexual') but it didn't feature after, I think, Marco - and reappeared only on the final night. Not sure why it was dropped: perhaps there was concern that Ahmed, Victor et al might react in a less-than-entiiirely-positive manner, or perhaps (outside bet, this one) Endemol realised it was a somewhat salacious 'did you spot the freak' question.


Listening to Davina on Chris Moyles's show on Friday morning, the change was partly because with the latter evictions coming so thick and fast she had more than enough stuff to get through without commenting on Nadia's birth-gender, but the key reason was because Davina became sensitive to the transgender community's viewpoint that Nadia was never a man, she was a woman trapped in a man's body, and that therefore to say that she used to be a man was inappropriate. Tellingly, on Friday, when she spoke of the subject to Dan (and my God, how pretentious was his microphone technique during the interview?) she said "Did you know...that Nadia is a female transsexual?" rather than using the word 'man' at all.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
14:19 / 10.08.04
Another point worth considering:

Nadia’s victory this year was the antidote to Cameron’s success last year. An affirmation of the opposite. Which at the end of the day supports those theoreticians who think the public votes for people who they simply warm too, rather than judge. I mean, I didn’t watch BB4 but the church surely didn’t sponsor Cameron’s victory, did it?
If not, that would mean the British BB public, despite an ambivalence towards Christianity, voted for Cameron cos they thought he was okay. Unless they were being perverse, trendy, cool by voting for someone so obviously at odds with themselves. If this proves to have been the case, then the Nadia vote could, similarly, be thought of in this manner.

Whatever.

But it should also be noted that, according to urban myth, the BB audience is primarily made up of gay males, females and teenagers.

Broad brush: gays will respond to Nadia’s ‘journey’, girls will love her ‘story’ and faux, over the top, sluttishness and teenagers will be teenagers – identifying with the unusual for whatever reason they need at the time.

So, perhaps it really is a bit rich to say ‘Britain’ has grown up as far as transexual acceptance is concerned.

Even tho now, I’m beginning to shed my resistance to the apparent positivity released from Nadia’s ‘victory.’

However, I believe the average Britain is tolerant. I also believe the average Britain could quite happily befriend a transsexual in the workplace or anywhere else for that matter. But, I’m still concerned at the British pack mentality, the anti-intellectual mindset of mainstream media and culture and the massive fear of being excluded. Unfortunately, all of these factors combine in such a way to reduce genuine solidarity and reduce levels of affection and care, empathy and friendship. Especially during periods marked by paranoia and massive social inequalities. It really does feel like every man, woman and child for themselves these days.

As a result, ‘trannnies, poofs, lesbos, muslims and darkies’ and any other obvious minority (gingers?) had better fuckin watch out, winner of BB or not.

ps. Despite the revamp this year, it was still remarkably similar to previous shows and why o fucken why must they persist with setting really dull tasks? There’s only so many sock puppets one can make efter aw.
 
 
Warewullf
14:37 / 10.08.04
gay males, females and teenagers.

Certainly true in my experience. I was in a bar full of very happy, hairy homos when we all got text messages telling us Nads had won! Very funny moment. First the multiple beeps, then the whispering, then the murmuring, then my boyfriend on the DJ's microphone announcing it to the bar!
 
 
electricinca
17:05 / 10.08.04
gay males, females and teenagers.

Well I'm one of the rare exceptions that proves the rule as I am none of the above, but all my friends who've also watched it fit the profile. But then again I didn't vote for Nadia to win so perhaps the stereotype holds water.

Anyway to reiterate a point I made earlier. I worry that the acceptance of Nadia by the BB audience is mistaken for acceptance by the general public. I don't think that the BB viewers who are actually bothered enough to vote are representative of the public in a wider sense.

The viewers have been through Nadia's journey with her and so have moved to a higher level of understanding of transgender issues. But there will be probably an equal number of people, say your stereotypical White Van man whose read The Sun or The Star but hasn't watched the show. They will be aware of Nadia but will lack the insight gained from watching the show.

This is all conjecture based upon my own prejudices I suppose but I can picture White Van men across the country reading the headline and coughing up their fried breakfast with disgust to discover that 'the freak ladyboy' had won it. Not that it's the fault of the red-tops as I think they've handled the issue with surprising restraint.

The average man or woman in the street will know her as transexual Nadia rather than just Nadia. This is only a problem as long as people are ignorant and prejudiced and the increased exposure that Nadia's win will bring will help to erode people's ignorance and reduce the prejudice.
 
 
Ganesh
18:09 / 10.08.04
Another point worth considering:

Nadia’s victory this year was the antidote to Cameron’s success last year. An affirmation of the opposite. Which at the end of the day supports those theoreticians who think the public votes for people who they simply warm too, rather than judge. I mean, I didn’t watch BB4 but the church surely didn’t sponsor Cameron’s victory, did it?
If not, that would mean the British BB public, despite an ambivalence towards Christianity, voted for Cameron cos they thought he was okay. Unless they were being perverse, trendy, cool by voting for someone so obviously at odds with themselves. If this proves to have been the case, then the Nadia vote could, similarly, be thought of in this manner.


Alternatively, they could've voted for the individual with the best narrative arc - which, within the context of last year's rather poor competition, was Cameron. He was sexually interesting, in that he'd not had any. He was (at least theoretically) sheltered and rather naive in his outlook upon the world. The week-exchange in Big Brother Africa enhanced his narrative considerably, as the viewing public watched his boundaries being challenged, or at least tweaked: not only did he spend a week amongst black Africans (not terribly common on Orkney) but black Africans with a considerably more relaxed attitude to sex.

Without that week, I don't think his narrative would've been the winner.

But it should also be noted that, according to urban myth, the BB audience is primarily made up of gay males, females and teenagers.

It'd be interesting to look up the stats (they must exist). I heard it was late-teens-to-twentysomething, predominantly female audience - but I've no idea of the exact ratio.

Broad brush: gays will respond to Nadia’s ‘journey’, girls will love her ‘story’ and faux, over the top, sluttishness and teenagers will be teenagers – identifying with the unusual for whatever reason they need at the time.

Uh-huh. That's a broad brush, right enough.

So, perhaps it really is a bit rich to say ‘Britain’ has grown up as far as transexual acceptance is concerned.

Well, yeah. Whoever's actually saying that. Within this thread, people have suggested a number of ways in which Nadia's win might prove beneficial in terms of reference points (particularly, as Bengali said, for young transpeople casting around for examples); I think most of stop short of suggesting that the entirety of Britain has matured in terms of acceptance of transsexuals as a whole.

However, I believe the average Britain is tolerant. I also believe the average Britain could quite happily befriend a transsexual in the workplace or anywhere else for that matter. But, I’m still concerned at the British pack mentality, the anti-intellectual mindset of mainstream media and culture and the massive fear of being excluded. Unfortunately, all of these factors combine in such a way to reduce genuine solidarity and reduce levels of affection and care, empathy and friendship. Especially during periods marked by paranoia and massive social inequalities. It really does feel like every man, woman and child for themselves these days.

Defining the "average Britain" (do you mean 'Briton'?) is trickier than it seems. It's been my own experience, from talking to a large number of transpeople from different walks of life, that acceptance is often counterintuitive: people/environments one might expect to be innately hostile to a male-to-female transsexual (the Army, the City, working mens' clubs, motorcycle couriers, etc.) are often more accepting/normalising than apparently touchy-feely settings (social workers, counsellors, etc.) Whether this represents a class difference, or a distinction between gay and trans, I don't know. The only employers we consistently warn against are religious ones.

As a result, ‘trannnies, poofs, lesbos, muslims and darkies’ and any other obvious minority (gingers?) had better fuckin watch out, winner of BB or not.

Like I say, I think there are differences between minorities in terms of acceptance. Not infrequently, trans individuals are accepted by those who absolutely refuse to countenance homosexuality. Individual members of minority subsets are always a mitigating factor ("I don't like darkies, but you're different; you're one of us", etc.)
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
22:07 / 10.08.04
But there will be probably an equal number of people, say your stereotypical White Van man whose read The Sun or The Star but hasn't watched the show. They will be aware of Nadia but will lack the insight gained from watching the show.

This is all conjecture based upon my own prejudices I suppose but I can picture White Van men across the country reading the headline and coughing up their fried breakfast with disgust to discover that 'the freak ladyboy' had won it.


Yes, how terrible it will be when these people fail to see beyind their own prejudices and see someone as a stereotype which can be summed up in a derogatory group term, like 'ladyboy' or 'White Van Man'. If only they had more insight, eh?
 
 
Ganesh
22:37 / 10.08.04
As I say, when talking to transpeople about acceptance, I've often been surprised by how often my expectations are confounded: not infrequently, it's nice, 'educated' people who get icky around transsexuals, rather than the notional Man In The Street (In The White Van); and, notably, acceptance of gay people is no guarantor of acceptance of transpeople - and vice versa.
 
 
Char Aina
23:28 / 10.08.04
do you have any theories as to what may or may not ready a mind to accept transgendered folk?
 
 
Ganesh
00:20 / 11.08.04
Not really, no. I have a suspicion, though, that subgroups with relatively well-defined/separate gender roles are more likely to accept male-to-female transsexualism than male homosexuality (all else being equal ie. the transwoman being attracted to males). If one believes that men should be 'masculine' and women 'feminine', then perhaps it's easier to get one's head around the concept of a 'woman trapped in a man's body' than the idea of a 'feminine' homosexual man. I dunno: it's pretty half-formed speculation, really.
 
  

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