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"Stupid" magick, religion and spirituality questions

 
  

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Mako is a hungry fish
10:55 / 03.06.07
"...And leave me alone.", presumably. Sheesh.

I think I've already stated that "I don't have a problem with sniping and disagreeing and reacting; I much prefer that to backslapping about how "my opinion matches with your opinion" because that doesn't really expand on anything other than consensual reality, and if it's all the same then I don't really need confirmations (though they are nice)." If I wanted to be left alone, then I'd walk away from this thread; I'm quite happy in using like energies to attract like energies, however I'm only going to do so if it helps me to achieve my desire, which is my point to Apophenia.

It fucking well is not theoretical. It's construction. It's the foundation stones. It's called educating yourself because the arts magical don't just get downloaded into your head for free.

I was referring more to the "struggling through the source texts" than to what you've mentioned, however I agree strongly with you in regards to downloading into your head for free - I think that upon occasion it does happen, however there's always a price to pay, however the vast majority of the time it's (thankfully) a case of learning as appropriate, and that learning doesn't happen without effort.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure scientific inquiry starts from a hypothesis (a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation).

Fair enough then, ccience, philosophy, and honest inquiry in general, usually start out with some sort of hypthothesis. I still stand by my statement that such a process is important to magic, and a valid part of magical discussion.

How did you go about infusing the computer wallpaper with the desired intent? I don't recall seeing you mention this anywhere.

The infusion with intent is there from the get-go; I wouldn't have been making the picture unless I wanted it to do something, and how I did it was directly related to achieving that desire. Just as infusing a set of mala beads with the heart sutra requires one to begin with the desire to do so, and then to actively infuse it by repeating the mantra whilst playing with the beads, or taking the living energy that is the mantra and telling it to live within the beads, or whatever process you desire, it was the same with the picture. Basically as I was creating the picture, I was doing so with the intent that it's direct result was to make my co-worker think twice about what he had done and to feel empathy for the guy in the picture; clicking the mouse to shade individual pixels was sort of like clicking along each bead on the string.

The one is a long-term practice by definition. The other is a (hopefully) one-off situation which you might choose to address using some of the magical toolkit you've been assembling.

Educating my co-worker is a long-term practice; I've been doing it for three years. The actual act under discussion was a one-off act to address a one-off situation as you've said; it was a pratical magic act as opposed to a magical practice, as is casting the runes. The difference is that like my original comment of finding a place to live, it was a rare act due to a rare circumstance.

Nobody's suggesting that you treat the care and education of this rather wankish individual in the same way you would treat taking up the runes, or yoga, or a relationship with a spirit.

I am - he's not only a co-worker but a friend, and so I wouldn't be putting in the effort if I didn't like him; whenever I interact with him I do my best to educate him in some way, however the degree to which I can is determined by what he gives me to work with. Sometimes it's listening to him bitch, sometimes it's teaching him how to meditate in order to control his temper. Comparing this to a relationship with a spirit, I can only do as much as the interaction with the spirit allowed me to.

What one would ideally like to see would be something that ties your "working" into a system of magic--any system. How did your mansnogging pic draw upon your egular practice? Have you been using photoshop as a magical tool for long? Do you often improvise such rituals on the fly? What about other forms of electronic media, or other visual arts?

Well I've already mentioned the invocation of Coyote, though that seems to have fallen by the wayside. Beyond that there's the infusing of intent to achieve desire, and the appreciation and control of cause and effect; drawing upon my most strongest magical influences, these were taken partly from the works of Franz Bardon (which I actively *attempt* to practice) and partly from Taoist learning, two schools of magical and religious thought that go together rather nicely now that I've come to understand both.

The photoshopping was a first off; as previously mentioned, it was a tool presented to me (in form of the original picture) that I could use in order to achieve my desire. I've done similar things with magazine pictures, jigsaws, etc in order to either actively create something beyond what the original creator intended, or else see what my subconscious could create. I do it pretty regulalry with windows media player visuals and music, entering a semi-trance state in order to use it as a 'magic mirror', primarily for past life work or getting in touch with entities.

In my circle of friends, we've (after much drunken 3am debate) taken to using the terms "Mystic" and "Magician" to mean two different things. And it seems to be that this conversation is touching on that very difference.

I'd count myself as being both. I've had a similar debate in regards to mystics and realists, and the conclusion was that the perceptions of each other is what clouds the reality of each other.

As previously mentioned, I work with Bardon and Taoism. Bardons work is like a crash course in the magic you'd learn in Taoism, and Taosim is like a crash course in the mysticism you'd learn in Bardons works.

Right, but has what you've actually done (as I understand it, you've photoshopped a picture of someone at your office, who perhaps already isn't your most reliable apologist, kissing another man, and then distributed the image over the internet, in such a way that he can easily see it) really worked any better? I'll take your word for it, but I'd be surprised if it has.

No, it was only put on his computer desktop. I was there when he saw it and he knew I had done it; apart from initially being pissed off at it, he came to see the humour and showed remorse for the original picture, not only because of what I had done to it but also because of what it was. He got rid of the pictures because neither one of them made him happy.

I sincerly doubt that mala beads would do much for him; for all the power that they'd have in themselves, this power kind of needs one to be open to it. I can preach buddhism all day, but that doesn't mean that any of it is going to get through to someone.

"Well I suppose I could perform some sort of ritual every time I wanted a new ballpoint pen, but somehow I don't think I really need to strip off, decorate myself with fingerpaint sigils, then stand outside WH Smiths howling lamentations to the Gods of Stationary until I got picked up by the local constabulary. Some of us prefer more, ah, genteel ways of obtaining a new writing instrument." See? Try it yourself!

I rarely encounter someone saying "if you want a ball point pen, don't do magic, get a job and go to the store" which is a shame, cause it might save out on a lot of heartache. I'm not of the opinion that the majority of magic is unneccessary; if it's neccessary to smoke a crappy cigar because that gets you in the right mind set to communicate with an entity, or gets the entity in the right mind set to communicate with you, then it's far from unneccessary. What I do think, and have experienced, is that sometimes a catalyst to such interactions isn't always as necessary as it seems - sometimes it may not be the crappy cigar, but a component within that crappy cigar, and it's that accuracy that I search for in my magic.

Magic & Mysticism are not, IMHO, oppositional perspectives.

I think they go hand in hand; relating them to necessity above, I find it necessary to add mysticism to my magic and vice versa in order to amplify the returns. For instance, being able to affect someone is different from knowing whether or not you should affect someone, and knowing that you should affect someone assists in the how and why of it.
 
 
EvskiG
21:35 / 04.06.07
Thinking about the magic vs. mysticism issue.

Seems to me that magic is based on desire and is generally practical in nature -- how do I get from point A (where I am now) to point B (money, greater knowledge, a new job, Knowledge and Conversation of my Holy Guardian Angel). As Crowley says, it's about causing change in accordance with will.

Seems to me that mysticism, on the other hand, is about controlling or quieting desire (through meditation, asana, prayer, etc.) to let the divine (or a higher state of consciousness) shine through. As Patanjali says about yoga, it's about ceasing fluctuations of consciousness.

But, as Trouser notes, following one path to some extent doesn't preclude the other.
 
 
Ticker
14:12 / 07.06.07
I thinking of bumping this thread for a home for a tattoo as magical tool/working. Maybe we can get a summary change? Or is there one a better one I can't find?

should I make a fresh spanking clean one?
 
 
Katherine
14:24 / 07.06.07
I would start a new one but link to that one.
 
 
Quantum
15:38 / 07.06.07
There's a whole bunch of old magical tattoo threads. I'll dig some up and link them in the new thread.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:39 / 07.06.07
It must be at least five minutes since I last plugged the Body Alchemy thread...
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
18:49 / 07.06.07
Hi. As someone who does not practice magic, but makes an effort to keep up with developments in this forum because I'm trying to determine whether incorporating a magical or spiritual practice into my life would be beneficial, I have a naive question to ask.

The impression I get from reading some of the material here is that some people generate their magical practices in a very individualistic and syncretic fashion, drawing upon different traditions and philosophies as they see fit, while others prefer to enter deeply into a particular tradition and explore it in all its dimensions. Of course I'm aware that this is not a cut and dried distinction and in making it I'm also likely to be describing the practices of the same people at different times of their lives. My question is - do you think that one approach is better than another? Would you prefer to involve yourself exclusively in one system of thought and be certain you have understood all its implications before partaking of another, or do you feel confident that you can explore several different practices at once, drawing what you find most useful from each?

Please excuse me if this enquiry seems overly simplistic or betrays an inadequate understanding of the ways in which people here practice magic. I really don't want to come across the way the originator of this thread managed to do as it doesn't seem that that discussion really benefited anybody. However, any response would be appreciated.
 
 
Quantum
19:00 / 07.06.07
Personally, I'd start with one system and then branch out. Otherwise it's easy to lose direction and focus, sticking to a tradition gives you structure.
 
 
EmberLeo
19:07 / 07.06.07
Heh - I imagine people who have chosen a particular way to do it probably consider the way they are doing it to be better. As you have noted, different people handle it differently.

Personally, I think it depends on culture, learning style, etc.

I'm a bit eclectic. To use an extended metaphor, I'm a bit of a "food separatist", both for primarily social reasons. I have access to a lot of different magical/spiritual cuisines, both new and old, and I don't myself see any reason to only ever eat hamburgers, but it's a rare that I find a group that is willing to serve both Sushi and Eggplant Parmesan on the same plate.

So I learned a bit of distilled Western magic from my parents, mixed with a lot of Unitarian philosophy and a bit of Eastern philosophy. And then I learned a fair bit of Wicca as the Neo-Pagan Lingua Franca. And now I'm a practicing Heathen (Germanic/Scandinavian Reconstructionist) and I'm in an Umbanda house.

This can be really confusing for some people. Dual trad isn't uncommon around here, but more than two and folks start to get seriously tapped out. I know Heathen/Kemetics, Umbanda/Celtics, Wiccan/Hellenics - you name it. To say nothing of the Ceremonial Kabalists also being in a dozen other things at once.

And I'm not even talking about the folks who are in it primarily for the Magic rather than the Gods.

Most folks I know seem drawn to at least one tradition that touches their biological/cultural roots, and another tradition that intruigues them personally, and that seems to balance out their needs nicely, merging for them into a single path that goes forward in harmony.

But in other places it's not this easy to mix it all up and still be effective. It's not this easy to find somebody else to work with, to learn from, etc.

So I suppose it's often much easier to follow a single tradition for a while either because it's what you have the best access to, or because it's what you connect with best without needing other humans to connect to it through.

--Ember--
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
19:14 / 07.06.07
do you think that one approach is better than another?

the easiest answer is "which one appeals more to you and your personality/lifestyle?"

a more answery answer might be to try and feel around with a few at once (or at least research a few) before you decide to delve deeply into one system. I think even the people who are very, very into a single tradition tend to do the bits that "work" best for them. experimentation and adaptability are good.

many times you'll find that a really deep study of one school of thought will yield benefits that aren't immediately obvious from skimming the top. there's a lot to be said for starting out in something that people have been working on and ironing out (and pouring belief into) for a zillion years.

on the other hand, don't get stuck memorizing someone else's (potential) mistakes as Dogma, either. keep in mind that many of the people doing said research over the zillion years were goofballs with notions we would tend to describe as outdated today (not excluding racism, sexism, elitism, and general wankism.)

mixing lots of different styles together can potentially help to teach you meta-theory, what do all these styles have in common, what's fluff, *why*. there are definitely some benefits to be had with the Freestyle approach. but it's also easy to end up kind of being a dabbler this way.
 
 
Haloquin
21:34 / 07.06.07
I'd echo pants. Finding one or two trads to focus on hard is a good idea, but finding the one that fits can take a bit of branching out. I started out reading everything I could get my hands on, unfortunately at the time it was pretty much only stuff on Wicca, which isn't quite right for me, but from there I learned some useful basics that I've kept; grounding, energy raising, a couple of ritual structures... etc.

I think the best thing to do is work out what feels right to you, if you touch on something and it feels right or intrigues you concentrate on it harder and continue looking at other paths/methods as a sideline. I've found the more variety of things I research/practice, the more depth my own practice develops as I find contrasts and correlations. Having said that, eventually sticking to a couple of paths yields good things, once you find the right one/s for you, theres definitely something to be said for dedication.

To summarise (and steal Ember's food comparison); its good to try lots of types of food until you find the ones you like and the ones that give you heartburn. Once you know what food you like, practising cooking it and cooking in that style means you get it perfect, but trying other dishes gives you a new perspective and inspiration for new seasoning or measurements to use. (IMO anyway)
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
22:14 / 07.06.07
Pretty much "what they said" really, although I'd like to sound a note of caution regarding the strong possibiltiy of wanton cultural appropriation in too eclectic a practice. It's incorrect IMO to assume that all the many and varied traditions out there are fair game. An interesting discussion of the issues involved occured in this thread.

Also, dude--this: keep up with developments in this forum because I'm trying to determine whether incorporating a magical or spiritual practice into my life would be beneficial made me feel a bit sad. You don't need the Temple to help you determine that, really. You're totally competent and sufficient to make that decision yourself; just jump in and give it a try.

I'd say start with some simple non-denominational kind of a practice, something you can do every day, and see where it takes you. Fifteen minutes of meditation. A dream diary. A divinatory skill. Get a Reiki One attunement and zap yourself once a day. These are real simple things that are vanishingly unlikely to get you into trouble and may enrich your life a great deal. Don't try to take on too much. Baby steps. Just start slow and see how you get along.
 
 
illmatic
03:05 / 08.06.07
The impression I get from reading some of the material here is that some people generate their magical practices in a very individualistic and syncretic fashion, drawing upon different traditions and philosophies as they see fit, while others prefer to enter deeply into a particular tradition and explore it in all its dimensions.

I actually think the two poles are closer together than you might think. Any magician worth their salt has got to be putting something of their individuality into their practice - that in a sense, is what makes it work. If you start exploring a tradition, you have to make an individual synthesis with that and your life to make it come alive for you.

That's all a bit abstract anyway - I was pleased to read Mordant's comments as that was what I was going to say, don't worry about a tradtion as such, just pick a practice - something that appeals to you and try it for 3-6 months. Keep notes and critically assess it - worth keeping up? Worth rejecting? Full of faulty assumptions? Etc etc
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
11:00 / 08.06.07
Thanks for all the responses, it was very much what I was hoping for if not more than I expected, at least so soon.

There are some ideas I've had about what might be of interest and appropriate for me to investigate. If they bear fruit I'm sure I'll be back in here again.

Finally I'd like to add the rider that if some hideous black alchemy takes flight and I turn into a massive magusitical arsehole as a direct consequence of this encouragement, you all are off the hook.
 
 
Blake Head
10:17 / 09.06.07
With the hope that asking isn't going to make me look too stupid, anyone able to tell me what Ra Bliss might be and how it's related to Vajrayana Buddhism (if at all)?
 
 
Tsuga
12:20 / 09.06.07
I was curious, following the Charles Cosimano thread where someone was called to task for what I suppose could best be described as "unethical use of magic" (and I think there may be a thread on ethics... ah, found it), about the whole premise behind magic, and what people's intentions would be in using it. Forgive my ignorance, which is why I'm posting in stupid questions. So Wikipedia, the repository of all ironclad truth, says:Magic and sorcery are the influencing of events, objects, people and physical phenomena by mystical, paranormal or supernatural means.
Or, for magick with a k:
Magick, in the broadest sense, is any act designed to cause intentional change.
Is a large part of magic, or I guess I should say "acts of magic", influencing others whether they want it or not? Or is it more trying to influence circumstances? In the ethics in magic thread, Mordant Carnival, back in the day: Ultimately it all comes down to individual ethics, just like anything else. It's between you and your concience where the line gets drawn. I don't see anything wrong with using magick to start a new relationship (or even for a one night stand if that's what floats yer boat), but I do think a person should consider the consequences of their actions for the other party. I know this is a while ago, but how does that match against the discussion in and around the Charles Cosimano thread? How much consideration is usually taken for the other party? I realize that this is different for different people. How is it justified to try to influence people with magic as opposed to using words or physical actions? Of course, there's a huge range of ethical or unethical behavior in using one's language or physical actions, so I suppose it could be viewed in the same way, but is the whole premise behind many acts of magic somewhat coercive? I apologize for any unintended offence, I really know nothing of these things, beyond the bits of temple I stumble across.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:18 / 09.06.07
(Damn, 2001 me was a bit of a wanker. Hope 2013 me isn't reading over my shoulder and thinking the same thing...)

is the whole premise behind many acts of magic somewhat coercive?

Bottom line? Yeah. Things like spells to break up a relationship or make a particular someone fall in love with you are most obviously coercive (and among the hardest to justify, given that less oppressive alternatives exist). So are spells to drive people off, or to harm people, although these are more of an ethical grey area; sometimes you're put in a position where they become justifiable. I can think of a lot of other examples.

Basically I see it as being like having any other kind of edge in the world, not much different than being physically stronger than the average. If you're a big strapping muscly six-footer, then yes you can use that to oppress people and get what you want. You could also use it to reach things down off high shelves for people in the supermarket, help your neighbour with repairs around the house, help your team win at sporting events, etc. Given that the world we live in is basically made of suck, absolutely chock-full of oppression, selfishness and cruelty, I see no justification for adding to the mess, and little justification for not doing what one can to reduce that suffering.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:22 / 09.06.07
...not to say that I regard magical ability as innate in the way that strength might be, obvs. Maybe coming into money would be a better metaphor.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
13:41 / 09.06.07
Basically I see it as being like having any other kind of edge in the world, not much different than being physically stronger than the average.

An overt misuse of strength is going to be recognized as such by those effected by it, who will then have the will to minimise it and (ideally) options available to do so; this isn't always the case with magic and so it can be like stealing candy from a baby, which makes the ethics of the situation all the more important.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:46 / 09.06.07
Physical strength can be used in very subtle ways that are often hard for the oppressed person to challenge, but I take your point. An important aspect of magic is that it can be used without anyone besides the victim knowing, making a commitment to ethical practice even more important. "There's no law against it" might be okay for the tinfoil hat brigade, but we should be striving for better things.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
14:28 / 09.06.07
Sometimes not even the victim knows, though I'm not sure if this is as bad, or worse.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:39 / 09.06.07
Oops, that's what I meant to write. Brane not in gear this afternoon.
 
 
Tsuga
01:13 / 10.06.07
Sorry if I brought up an old regretted comment, TTS, it just seemed to relate to the topic at hand. Thanks for your answers, it's an interesting concept to think about.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:52 / 10.06.07
Oh gosh, it's hardly your fault. And at least I'm making progress...
 
 
Triplets
10:34 / 10.06.07
Can someone with real knowledge of teh magicks explain what a trickster figure actually is for the benefit of muggins (not muggles) like me with a cursory interest in "occult" stuff (bad bad blanket term). Not taking piss.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:54 / 10.06.07
It's exactly what it says on the tin, really - a divinity which is distnguished by playing tricks on other gods or humans. Sometimes these trickster figures are more or less benign or malign, but they are frequently shoehorned by People who have read the Invisibles and very little else into, conveniently, the archetype of one who somehow helps others on the path to self-realisation by poor-quality posting on Internet message boards.

Trickster figures in world myth include Loki (although it's a bit more complicated than that), Anansi, Coyote, Prometheus (although it is, inevitably, a bit more complicated than that), Puck, Reynard, Ti Malice and Br'er Rabbit.

Proper tricksters often act as a bridge between man and god, and can take the role of a mythic bringer of divine benevolence in defiance of divine will - Prometheus and Coyote both bring fire from Heaven to man, whereas Anansi brings rain.
 
 
Quantum
13:11 / 10.06.07
Haus is quite right, in fact Anansi literally built a web-ladder to heaven IIRC. Other labels include Pookah the trickster fairy etc etc.
It's becoming shorthand here to indicate a recurrent stereotype of people (almost always male for some reason, Rage is the only counterexample I can think of) who act as ontological terrorists, breaking us out of our stale old behaviours and stifling reality tunnels by being really annoying, related to the 'you take yourself too seriously' people in my opinion. Kinda like Socrates, those noble souls, acting as the horsefly on the body politic. If only we could make them drink hemlock.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
13:20 / 10.06.07
Don't forget Dennis the Menance, he's a pretty good example of the trickster, however being a child he tends to lack the self awareness and sexual overtones that other tricksters are known for.

I relate Coyote to my subconscious more often than not, though I'm not sure how justifiable this would be to the wider community.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:25 / 10.06.07
Don't forget Dennis the Menance, he's a pretty good example of the trickster

I'll leave this to someone with more faith in the educability of man, I think.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
14:06 / 10.06.07
Granted, Dennis isn't a diety, spirit, or animal (setting aside his status as a cultural icon as a cartoon character) however whilst these are common incarnations of the Tricker archetype, there are also human incarnations as well; Dennis is as much of a modern day Trickster as Ferris Buellar, Bugs Bunny, Bender, and (as you've already mentioned) Brer Rabbit, as all of them play pranks or else are know for disobeying rules and standards of behaviour, just like Coyote.

The Trickster isn't clearly defined by what he is, but rather what he (or she as the case may be) isn't - whilst sometimes he may be a thief, or generous, or mean, his nature isn't straight laced, serious, and concerned with rules; these are tools he may use in a prank, however at heart they're not the realm in which he resides.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:18 / 10.06.07
As I say, someone else might feel there is a positive outcome from this discussion.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
14:20 / 10.06.07
As I say, someone else might feel there is a positive outcome from this discussion.

Which is actually something that tends to happen when it comes to the Trickster; usually there is a positive outcome, however more often than not it's unintentional on the Tricksters behalf (though they're quite happy to lay credit to it).
 
 
Quantum
14:50 / 10.06.07
Dennis the Menace?

Is he an analogogue of Anansi then? Are pop culture characters equivalent to gods? Is Gnasher the modern Cerberus?
 
 
Quantum
14:53 / 10.06.07
usually there is a positive outcome

Not on Barbelith, it usually ends in a huff or banning and reams of irritated posting.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:04 / 10.06.07
It's a different Dennis the Menace, Quantum - a corporate property of Big Screen Productions.
 
  

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