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"Stupid" magick, religion and spirituality questions

 
  

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Mako is a hungry fish
10:20 / 06.05.07
Can magick be secular ? Can spirituality be secular ?

Magic can, quite easily, though it tends to get to a point where it's hard to not see the light (or dark light, if that's how your eyes work) however thankfully magic is such a diverse subject that one could probably devote their practice to secular magic and barely scratch the surface.

Spirituality being secular? That seems a bit trickier given that secularity directly relates to things that arn't spiritual, however if one redefines their definition of religion, than spirituality can be secular as well.

Once again from Franz Bardon...

From the Hermetic point of view, even materialism is a kind of religious system, one whose representatives may believe in God but not in anything supernatural, and who adhere only to that of which they are able to convince themselves – in other words, to them it is matter which prevails. Since the initiate knows that matter is the symbolic representation of the divine appearance reflected in the laws of nature, he will not judge anyone who believes merely in matter.
 
 
Quantum
11:14 / 06.05.07


One of my favourite books. Bear, let us know how the Buffy is, we are blatantly judging it by the cover.
 
 
Unconditional Love
16:24 / 06.05.07
I have never read the tao of pooh, why is it one of your favourite books quantum?
 
 
misterdomino.org
19:00 / 06.05.07
Many thanks for the words of wisdom, Daytripper, Mako, Princess, and Saturn's Nod...I s'pose I knew the answer to that dillema all along, just needed to hear it from some people with more experience. Seems like the collective response is to focus on self-improvement and the wellness/improvement of those close to me, which is great advice. I suppose I'm just experiencing the shock of realizing that someone can influence my life by actualizing their desires. As a follow-up question, is this type of thing normal upon initiation into magical thinking? I mean, has anyone else realized that events in their pre-magical past have been put into motion by someone using magic?
 
 
Quantum
19:37 / 06.05.07
why is it one of your favourite books quantum?

It's charming, I love Winnie the Pooh, it explains Taoism really well to a westerner and I get the impression Hoff really knows his stuff. I'd also recommend 'The Te of Piglet or the virtue of being small'.

Hoff explicitly states that this second book is not a sequel to his first book, but rather a companion. The book is based around two topics, the concept of Te, the Chinese word meaning 'power' or 'virtue' and Piglet, of the Winnie the Pooh books.

Who couldn't love it?
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
07:48 / 07.05.07
I mean, has anyone else realized that events in their pre-magical past have been put into motion by someone using magic?

I think it's more common to think that things are the result of magic, than it is to realise they actually were. Magic tends to be a scapegoat for things we don't understand, and so when we get a little bit of understanding we tend to see magic in events where it isn't - for me it most often occurs when something physical happens, a slight pain or unexpected pleasure, that is similar to what I experience when I practice NEW by Robert Bruce that leads me to believe that an external source is affecting me. The thing is that magic, real magic, usually slips under the radar, especially if you're not the one practicing it; more often than not I simply "know", without a doubt, that an external source is affecting me - my usual reaction is to look straight at it before I realise it, such as when someone is looking at me in the first place - instead of "thinking" or "feeling".

While there are definately things I can see in my past that had attributes of what I'd call magic, there are also things in my past that I labelled magic that now I think most likely wern't; as I said earlier, a great deal of magic, especially psychic attack, exists no where but in our minds.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
08:09 / 07.05.07
Which reminds me of a story whose magic I only realised a decade or so after I'd read it, and think that there is still much more to learn; if anyone knows it and can direct me to its source I would greatly appreciate it, as I remember it more from the images it invoked in my mind than the words on the page, and I forget how it ends.

Once when the world was new, in a land of ice and snow, there existed a magician whose power was unquestioned by all, save one. This one was another magician, younger and brasher than his senior, who decided that it was time to issue a challenge; the challenge was accepted, and the two came to meet.

The closer they came to one another, the louder two sounds could be heard, and these sounds were made by both the magicians; the first was the sound of their sled cutting its way through the ice and snow, driven by the hooves of reigndeer whose breath was loud in the wind.

The second was chanting, similar, yet different. Both magicians spoke of what they were, and yet what they spoke of were things they were not; the snow that fell from the sky, the twinkle in their reigndeers eye, the bubbles in their beer, whispers in their hearts of fear.

Closer and closer the magicians came, louder and louder their voices were heard, faster and faster their sleds sped...

I forget what happens next... they probably just smiled and went to the pub.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
01:19 / 09.05.07
Question about the pathways on the Sephirotic tree of life: -

Is there a name to the involutionary/evolutionary pathway that goes from Kether to Binah to Chockmah to Daath to Geburah to Chesed to Tiphareth to Hod to Netzach to Yesod to Malkuth?

What are the properties of this pathway?
 
 
electric monk
04:14 / 09.05.07
I think it's called The Lightning Flash.

I am not qualified to answer your second question. I think this guy might be. The link takes you to a page to download a PDF. In that PDF, there's a chapter called "The Pillars and the Lightning Flash." It might help. The whole book's pretty good, I think.
 
 
Quantum
04:35 / 09.05.07
It's the magicians path, although usually in reverse IIRC from Malkuth to Kether touching all the bases, as opposed to the mystic's path Malkuth-Yesod-Tiphereth-(Daath/Abyss)-
Kether. How much do you already know about it?
 
 
Quantum
04:37 / 09.05.07
It's the magician's path also called the lightning flash I should say, monk is quite right.

 
 
Quantum
13:48 / 09.05.07
Remember that Buffy philosophy book from last page? Check this out;

"South Park and Philosophy: Bigger, Longer, and More Penetrating"

I shit you not.
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:42 / 09.05.07
People do get stoned and what t.v.

Also maybe it is thought that a generation of people are more likely to read philosophy if its packaged around pop culture, the pop culture as a kind of bait, to the philosophical hook to the jaw.
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:43 / 09.05.07
That what should be a watch, not the ticking kind, but how do you what t.v, as in what t.v, i do not have one.
 
 
LykeX
14:59 / 09.05.07
Actually, Mako, asked about the path going from Kether to Binah to Chockmah etc., i.e. the mirror image of the lightning. Of course, I don't know if that was simply a mistake or if it was intentional.
 
 
Papess
15:16 / 09.05.07
SERPENT’S RISE
Travelling upward from Malkuth to Kether, the sphere are thought of as being inked by the coils of the serpent Nechushtan. The snake, who holds his tail in his mouth, is the symbol of wisdom and initiation. The coils of serpent arranged upon the Tree, cross each Paths in succession. Serpent rises above with effort from one sphere to another. The serpent contrasts the Lightning Flash. The Flash represents the successive emanations and creative evolution. It is the process of creation. The serpent’s rise travels over successive stages which unfold cosmic realization in human consciousness. It is a path of redemption for mankind.


The lightening is for creation, as I am understanding this. And the snake is the path to awakening the magician's consciousness.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:53 / 09.05.07
Quantum just... don't do that. Anymore.
 
 
Papess
19:41 / 09.05.07
The lightening is for creation, as I am understanding this. And the snake is the path to awakening the magician's consciousness.

Of course, lightning does emanate from the ground, right? Is this what is meant by "the magician's path" in reference to the lightning path?

Have we been over this before?
 
 
Unconditional Love
19:56 / 09.05.07
What can people tell me about the archangel of Malkuth, Sandalphon and also its divine name Adonai ha-Aretz, as Malek Taus is also seen as a sovereign of the earth or lord of the earth as is the angel under the name Azazel. Has anybody directly worked with this spirit?
 
 
---
21:26 / 09.05.07
What can people tell me about the archangel of Malkuth, Sandalphon and also its divine name Adonai ha-Aretz

When I was well into trying to learn the Kabbalah about 5 or 6 years back, I used to call on Adonai fairly often when I needed help with stability, grounding and calmness, and thoughts of her used to help me quite a bit as far as I remember, as a type of guide for my awareness. I was seeing Adonai as the Lesser Queen, (as opposed to the greater Binah) and asking for the help of one of the first Goddess forms I encountered. There's not really too much memory of exactly how well things went, but I'm sure I was helped and inspired a decent amount from having the Goddess form/energy/vibration/etc, to call on when in need. Adonai was always one of my faves, maybe because of the memories tied to the trust and belief I had in the stabilizing Malkuth power when I called on it, and how much it appeared to be there to help when problems arised.

Ah, I just checked the magical image in a book and found this page that has more info. I like this part :

For those who are not comfortable with physics there are alternative, more traditional ways of approaching Malkuth. The magical image of Malkuth is that of a young woman crowned and throned. The woman is Malkah, the Queen, Kallah, the Bride. She is the inferior mother, a reflection and realisation of the superior mother Binah. She is the Queen who inhabits the Kingdom, and the Bride of the Microprosopus. She is Gaia, Mother Earth, but of course she is not only the substance of this world; she is
the body of the entire physical universe.

Some care is required when assigning Mother/Earth goddesses to Malkuth, because some of them correspond more closely to the superior mother Binah. There is a close and deep connection between Malkuth and Binah which results in the two sephiroth sharing similar correspondences, and one of the oldest Kabbalistic texts [1] has this to say about Malkuth:

"The title of the tenth path [Malkuth] is the Resplendent Intelligence. It is called this because it is exalted above every head from where it sits upon the throne of Binah. It illuminates the numinosity of all lights and causes to emanate the Power of the archetype of countenances or forms."
 
 
---
21:42 / 09.05.07
..and the fact that I used to picture a Goddess as I said the name Adonai, which is translated as 'Lord' will have surely given the spirits a good pointer of the messed up way I used to go about things. Even looking at the word now I still can't see it as masculine. Think I'll go with the 'Adonai = Master' translation instead!
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:49 / 09.05.07
Some care is required when assigning Mother/Earth goddesses to Malkuth, because some of them correspond more closely to the superior mother Binah.

Some care is required assigning any Goddesses or Gods or Whoever to the various sephiroth. Beings (or 'godforms' if you really must) who originated in different systems are not necessarily going to plug neatly into the Qabalah with no gaps round the edge or bits sticking out.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
04:06 / 10.05.07
Actually, Mako, asked about the path going from Kether to Binah to Chockmah etc., i.e. the mirror image of the lightning. Of course, I don't know if that was simply a mistake or if it was intentional.

It was quite intentional; whereas the Lightning path of involution, Kether down to Malkuth or God down to Man, is similar to what I mentioned, so too is the evolutionary Serpent path of Malkuth up to Kether, or Man up to God.

Using the diagram that Quantum posted from wikipedia, the Lightning path goes 1-2-3-4-5...10 and the Serpent path goes 10-9-8-7-6-5...1.

The path I'm asking about goes 1-(3-2)-daath-(5-4)-6-(8-7)-9-10 or lightning-(serpent)-lightning-(serpent)-lightning-(serpent)-lightning-lightning.
 
 
Olulabelle
07:56 / 10.05.07
What is it about Qabalah and the Otz chim that makes people want to shoehorn beings from elsewhere into it? Why is it considered so special that everything else should be expected to slide into it? I'm not saying it has nothing to do with anything, and I can see how laying out the Tarot to fit the Otz Chin might be of some value but I don't see a similar kind of appropriation of other beings happening with other pathways.

I mean you don't find Norse trad people going, "Oh and here we find Buddha, at the foot of Yggdrasill."
 
 
---
08:59 / 10.05.07
Maybe it's a new-age thing, where you use the glyph as a correspondence chart for everything else, instead of actually working with the spheres.
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
13:12 / 10.05.07
What is it about Qabalah

I'm trying to read Dion Fortune's The Mystical Qabbalah and about 9 out of 10 sentences make me want to smack her in the forehead with a flyswatter.
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:31 / 10.05.07
It comes largely from the golden dawns attributions and those of Crowley (trying to create a more global system of the tree)
but also more contemporary teachers like warren Kenton do a similar thing.

I am not so much trying to make a being fit as find its relevant place, the cult of angels in the yezidi/Sufism has a history of contact with Judaic kabbalah and alot of other esoteric judeao Christian systems, just a look at the syncretic mix within the yezidi belief structure is enough to see a very diverse range of beliefs.

The figure of Azazel crosses cultural beliefs systems in a similar way, with Islamic, Christian, jewish, yezidi and other influences.

I am looking a Hermetic Qabalah not rabbinical kabbalah, that is an entirely different approach to kabbalah, even in spelling.

Azazel is responsible for the the creation of this world but is also cited as all the forms within it, his twin is described as the good twin, i was looking at that as metatron, metatron and adonai are often paired as twins in qabalah.

The cult of angels in yezidi belief revolves around 7 powers, angels, i do wonder if there is a correlation to the lower 7 sephirah from a hermetic qabalah view point.
 
 
EvskiG
14:01 / 10.05.07
and the fact that I used to picture a Goddess as I said the name Adonai, which is translated as 'Lord' will have surely given the spirits a good pointer of the messed up way I used to go about things. Even looking at the word now I still can't see it as masculine. Think I'll go with the 'Adonai = Master' translation instead!

Adonai does in fact mean "Lord." It's usually used in Hebrew prayers as a substitute for YHVH, which is never spoken aloud.

Neither Adonai nor YHVH is even remotely female or feminine in aspect.

If you want to refer to a Jewish, female aspect of God, I'd go with Shekhinah, which is sort of a feminine Jewish equivalent of the Holy Spirit.

Or, if you want a more personified deity, you could go with the Ugaritic deity (and formerly the Hebrew God El's consort) Asherah.

What is it about Qabalah and the Otz chim that makes people want to shoehorn beings from elsewhere into it?

That's what Crowley and the Golden Dawn used it for, as a mystical filing cabinet, a memory trick for creating and considering correspondences. It's a good way to learn to think of everything magically, but some people tend to get a bit obsessive about it.

Azazel is responsible for the the creation of this world but is also cited as all the forms within it, his twin is described as the good twin, i was looking at that as metatron, metatron and adonai are often paired as twins in qabalah.

Where are you getting this? From a Fields of the Nephilim album?
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:17 / 10.05.07
No.
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:33 / 10.05.07
"Metatron also has a twin brother according to certain traditions named Sandalphon. Gustav Davidson’s A Dictionary of Angels (where I’ve mined a good bit of this info so far), offers the possible connection to Zoroastrianism: where Metatron and Sandalphon are modified equivalents of Ormuzd (Ahura Mazda) and Ahriman (Angra Mainyu). " The above taken from a chat site, and a book i used to own.

Zoroastrianism is an influence on yezidi belief structure.

Its conjecture in my head, but we will see.
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:42 / 10.05.07
My main point on the qabalah is how it relates to the angelic hierarchies and the operations as gods messengers, there is already an inherent angelic structure, ive yet to further research muslim, jewish and christian angel cults.

So i have alot more work to do before i reach any conclusions on how to work with angelic beings, old grimoires need research as well, and i need to brush up on all the basics of hermetic practice, speaking of which, i have just started looking at the work of Franz Bardon, who seems to write in a very different way to other 20th century sources. Anybody worked with his stuff and can give feedback, from reading around the net he is alot more practice focused than many other writers who comment on hermetica, meaning straight to the point less prosaic language employed.
 
 
EvskiG
14:53 / 10.05.07
metatron and adonai are often paired as twins in qabalah

No.

At least not to my knowledge.

The fact that the angels Metatron and Sandalphon often are paired in Kabbalistic texts does NOT mean that "metatron and adonai are often paired as twins in qabalah."

Sandalphon =/= Adonai.

Azazel is responsible for the the creation of this world but is also cited as all the forms within it

his twin is described as the good twin

Where?

The statements about Metatron, Sandalphon, Ormazd, and Ahriman that you've cited from A Dictionary of Angels, even if accurate, have no clear connection to Azazel.

If your statements above are just elements of your own personal cosmology, that's fine, but that's not what you seem to have said.
 
 
EvskiG
14:56 / 10.05.07
Anybody worked with his stuff and can give feedback, from reading around the net he is alot more practice focused than many other writers who comment on hermetica, meaning straight to the point less prosaic language employed.

I've worked with Bardon's stuff.

Very strange. Imagine Golden Dawn/Thelemic exercises without the attendant dogma.

The mental and spiritual exercises are pretty good, actually. But I wouldn't follow his advice on nutrition or health.
 
 
electric monk
14:56 / 10.05.07
What is it about Qabalah and the Otz chim that makes people want to shoehorn beings from elsewhere into it? Why is it considered so special that everything else should be expected to slide into it? I'm not saying it has nothing to do with anything, and I can see how laying out the Tarot to fit the Otz Chin might be of some value but I don't see a similar kind of appropriation of other beings happening with other pathways.

It's not about "shoehorning", or at least it shouldn't be. I know it's prevalent, and we can all point to any number of instances of this happening. But I think this is one of those complexities that's been reduced to a simple plug 'n play by a few too many people. There's some validity to considering the gods thru the lens of a given sephira, but it's not as simple as "War God over in Geburah", etc. First of all, it's hardly ever a perfect fit. There's bound to be a few choices between where any given god "should go". Earth goddesses tend to have affinity with Malkuth and Binah, at the least. These affinities are meant to be instructive as well as fluid. Malkuth is one way of looking at an Earth goddess. Binah is another way. Vav or Tzaddi may be able to offer insight as well. Secondly, the process is expected to shed light on the thing being looked at and the lens used, not to pigeonhole it.

I understand the frustration with this type of thing, but I hope it's not dismissed entirely, as there seems to me to be something valuable there.
 
 
Ticker
15:03 / 10.05.07
I agree there's something really useful about taking familar pieces and lining them up in new ways according to other systems of belief. For example the idea of looking at my Goddess through the lens of either Malkuth or Binah just made me sit up straight and have a nice long think about things I hadn't considered.

Which is why I heart this forum extra.
 
  

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