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"Stupid" magick, religion and spirituality questions

 
  

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Quantum
08:37 / 23.05.07
You could do it the easy way and send $25 to mistressofmagic.com, or even better get it cast thrice for only $65!! Bargain!
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
10:04 / 23.05.07
I feel so lazy with my magic sometimes - most I did to find the perfect place was the normal house hunting routine, using that focused energy to guide me to the appartment that as soon as I stepped through the door I knew was to be mine.

I think I only checked out five other places (though made numerous calls, the majority of which wern't answered or returned) and throughout the process was confident that the Universe would treat me well because I did the same to it.

Their fingerprints are frelling EVERYWHERE in this place, and it's downright perfect for us.

Heh... I can appreciate that.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
08:53 / 26.05.07
Stupid magic question...

Do the following links seem highly magical to anyone other than me?

XKCD Choices Part 1
XKCD Choices Part 2
XKCD Choices Part 3
XKCD Choices Part 4
XKCD Choices Part 5
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:22 / 26.05.07
They're very magical.
 
 
Quantum
09:24 / 26.05.07
"Is what we're doing cheating?"
"Yup."
 
 
Ticker
13:43 / 26.05.07
plus you know...the making out/flying kites parts are dead on.
 
 
illmatic
18:20 / 26.05.07
I don't know... there's something I don't like about them. I know what it is, but it's more me reacting to a lot of current posts in The Temple than the content of the cartoons.

Namely - is magic just recognising that "woo.. things are a bit weird sometimes"? Now I accept that coincidences and odd moments of inspiration happen sure, but isn't magical practice actually something a bit deeper? Seeking out new people, committing to practice, take time out from a difficult daily routine, learning new skills, study...

Being lazy with magic as Mako mentions above - maybe there's something to that, but I just think there's whole strata of depth left out if this the totality of one's practice. A lot of current posts in The Temple seem to fall into this boat, and to me at least, aren't very interesting to read.

(This is why the Feri/Reclaiming stuff is great - it's the opposite - magic grounded in communal, social action).
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
22:49 / 26.05.07
I get what you're saying dude. I guess I am reading the cartoons from a different perspective. I'm quite invested in my practice and already on board with the whole long-term commitment deal, but sometimes I need reminding why I got into all this in the first place.
 
 
Papess
23:01 / 26.05.07
The comics remind me of that movie, you know...with Jodie Foster..Contact? I still like them though...the "making out" bit gave me a chuckle.
 
 
Quantum
10:51 / 27.05.07
Reminded me of the Johnen Vasquez comic Squee, when he meets his future self. 'I've come from the future to tell you it's going to be horrible, and...AAH! MY SPINE! IT HURTS! THE PROCESS HAS GONE HORRIBLY WRONG EEEEEEE!!' *scrunch splat vwoop!*
 
 
Ticker
12:06 / 27.05.07
I think the comics are great because they aren't presenting magic, they are presenting a common human experience of waking the fuck up to the awe and joy of life. For some of us that's osmething we recognise as part of the process of our magic and spiritual work. It's nice to see it being explored with humor within a larger community.

As for the somewhat sigh wringing quality of a good handful of magical topics both in the forum and off, I see a good amount of people are still focused on personal gain. Material short term gain to be specific. However as tiring as it can be, TtS has a point about levels of experience. Sometimes it is the bright shiny glinting out of the dirt pile that draws us to grab a shovel. Later we realize the value of just moving the dirt and even later perhaps we figure out something beautiful to do with it like grow squash.

I see no reason in particpating if you have no interest especially as I trust a great deal in what excites the intellect and spirit to passionate enquiry. Yet there is a vast difference between not personally interesting and entirely worthless.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
13:30 / 27.05.07
Being lazy with magic as Mako mentions above - maybe there's something to that, but I just think there's whole strata of depth left out if this the totality of one's practice.

For me it's not about a half arsed approach to things, but rather eliminating things that arn't necessary whilst still getting results that are as good; recognising magic is always nice, but appreciating, understanding, and controlling it is even better.
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:55 / 27.05.07
I'd question whether magic should be work at all, a serious form of play perhaps. But the equivalent of a school subject? i am off to play truant, flood the toilets or lock the R.E teacher in the cupboard again. Next off to create the underworld (English classes had some great ideas) in the bushes that surround the school field.

Religion is magic all grown up, after all isnt it? and look how boring and tedious that is.

Just being a bit of a devil. Is that magical?
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
15:16 / 27.05.07
Just being a bit of a devil. Is that magical?

Of course - Coyote is one of the greatest magicians I know, and it's not like Brahma could create anything new if Shiva didn't lend a hand.

Magic doesn't become religion when it grows up, it becomes religion when it attracts disciples who prevent it from growing up. Wise words from a seductress include "it's not work if you love doing it".
 
 
This Sunday
16:56 / 27.05.07
Being a bit of a devil/coyote's just as much magick as being anything else, I suppose. As being a rabbit, or Rabbit, or the sunlight on the carpet in front of the television set showing me ads for half pound burgers. I don't much care for circumvention magick unless I think it's establishing a route for everybody to be taking 'round the bend, though, and most trickster stuffs are based priarily around the notion of napping in the briar patch or getting one over for yourself.

Moonraking's fine, say, but there's always a difference between pulling the moon out of the lake for yourself and pulling some barrels of drink out of the water to take down to a friends and pop open into a few dozen cups. And sometime's you're just that bear in that kid's book having a chat with the moon and maybe you want to have a swim with your big cratered friend, there.

I don't want to think of anything in terms of 'growing up' just because everything grows up in that forward-time sense. Religion or not. A way we like or not. The idea that aging or maturation relies on it developing in the way we particularly desire, it just doesn't seem to reflect the way the world is, to me. Or, the way we are, unless one really feels their timespan X has been spent more fruitfully than person Y's exact same amount of time was.

I commend people doing great and serious works, the people who've found or chosen a function, who keep things going. It's a good job everyone's done, because we stil get a sun and mountains and there's birds and chocolate and everything. And I know fair enough my what-you'd-call-responsibilities are, but I like mine. I like mine a good deal. Rewarding, sometimes scary as all get out, and I don't recall having a choice when I had them confirmed for me as a kid, but I can't make it a matter of maturity or that my stuff is that different from when anyone else has done or will do. Less substantial in some areas than others? Sure. But there's no virtue in old magick or new magick, I think, in and of themselves, or more virtue in intricate deep-ceremonial work versus inhalation or telling someone you adore them mid-conversation.

But, I admit, it's very plausibly an entirely immature premise I'm coming from. I know I'm boiling down a ton of stuff that's been floating about the forum for awhile, and probably very functional and good for others folks and I'm not trying to invalidate or subordinate any of that. Simply put, little in the world has struck me as not fitting in either one or two boxes: and that's alright and ain't that a helluva thing. And, y'know, 'I adore you,' because I do, a lot of the time, with a billion little yous a day, of flesh, rock, plastic and/or thought composition.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:59 / 27.05.07
Okay, my stupid question for the evening is: What do those last two posts actually mean?

Raniel/Wolfangel:

I'd question whether magic should be work at all, a serious form of play perhaps. But the equivalent of a school subject? i am off to play truant, flood the toilets or lock the R.E teacher in the cupboard again. Next off to create the underworld (English classes had some great ideas) in the bushes that surround the school field.


What school? What classes? What is this homogenised curriculum, what is the agency that's foisting it on you? Who's the twag inspector that's going to come round your house and give you a bollocking if you bunk off? There isn't one! Nobody is prescribing some merciless, compassionless, meaningless, inappropriate course of work that you have to complete or suffer. There is no grownup cramping your style. You're free to write your own curriculum now, to build your own classrooms, laboratories and playing-fields the way you need them, to choose your classmates and teachers as you will--which means that the big bad headmaster stopping you from doing something you really want to do, enforcing rigid timetables and loading you down with ugly useless input is YOU.

School's out for ever.

Religion is magic all grown up, after all isnt it? and look how boring and tedious that is.

What are ytou talking about? Which religion exactly? Not every single religion looks like organised Christianity.

Just being a bit of a devil. Is that magical?

I groaned when I read that, mate, I really did. Yeah you're the Trixter, you're the Coyote, you're the Pookah...

...and right on cue, we get:

Of course - Coyote is one of the greatest magicians I know, and it's not like Brahma could create anything new if Shiva didn't lend a hand. --Mako

Jolly good. Now can you tell us what all this actually means to you? For example, you might outline the ways in which it informs your magical practice, your dealings with others, the way you live your life.

Magic doesn't become religion when it grows up, it becomes religion when it attracts disciples who prevent it from growing up.

Once again: What does this mean, please? Because I'm sorry, but from where I'm sitting the pair of you have just wheeled out a bunch of soundbites. You've dissed teh evol rigid religion--ooh, edgy!--and then you've performed the Lesser Evokation Of The Vaguely-Understood Trickster Figure, a rite with which I and most of the regulars here are achingly familiar.

Guys, there is room for rigour and creation. I don't understand why the former is supposed to be so inimical to the latter. Yeah, sometimes magic is work. Commitment. Doing the hard shit even when you really don't feel like it, day in and day out. What's wrong with that? Anything worth doing is hard sometimes, no matter how much you love it. I'm all for introducing fun and play into your practice but you also need a bit of grit, a bit of sticking power.

If you've got a satisfying, meaningful practice then the idea of evaluating it should not be a source of irritation or anxiety, because you'll be doing it naturally every day of your life. You're interacting with a living system and you need to keep an eye on it--just like a keen gardener knows how well her petunias are doing or that the roses could do with a bit of a prune because she can't stay away from the place. Where does "like a school subject" come into it? Where's the structure that needs to be torn down?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:04 / 27.05.07
x-post with DN.
 
 
Princess
17:09 / 27.05.07
Religion is magic all grown up, after all isnt it? and look how boring and tedious that is.

After deleting my first post, (which was basically "Fuck" and "You"), I decided to try and engage.

Everyone, including yourselves Raniel and Mako, try to keep the Temple as a bullshit free space. It is a safe-space from stupidity. However, the above quote is pure manure.

Unless you are using some special, personal, meaning of Magic and Reigion then I would argue that the boundary between the two is fairly hazy if not non existent. Religion can be childish and beautiful and magic can be sapping and adult.

To be frank, your out burst against (what I assumed you meant to mean) organised religion isn't really that far from "haha, look at the boring sheeples, stuck in their stagnating reality tunnells".

There are many "religous" people reading, and many "magical" people reading. I think a lot of your audience might take either mantle. Don't call "religous" practicioners boring, don't call "magical" practicioners childish.

I mean, is this too high a baseline? I'm really sorry to contribute to the snark quotient, and I've normally got a lot of time for you Raniel, but dude, think before pressing post?
 
 
Princess
17:18 / 27.05.07
Wow, super x-post.

By three incredible sage, beautiful and enchanting people.
Maybe that's a huge neon sign that uninformed disdain for other people's practice is just a tiny massive bit shit and all right thinking (sage, beautiful and enchanting) human beings frown on it and cry tears of bile when it arrives?
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
17:39 / 27.05.07
Jolly good. Now can you tell us what all this actually means to you? For example, you might outline the ways in which it informs your magical practice, your dealings with others, the way you live your life.

It means from the time I posted that, to the time I posted this, I was in the mood to change a photo of a 6'9" work collegue using one hand to lift up a 5'0" work collegue by the neck (who was taking it nicely, all things considered) into a photo of a 6'9" work collegue caught in the act of trying to kiss a 5'0" work collegue (with a lovely big pink heart surrounding them) so that the humiliator is humiliated - all whilst on the company dollar.

It means that whilst I was doing it, Realplayer kept putting out random songs about kissing from a collection of Global Underground cds, that I'd never noticed were there before, and that the whole thing put me in such a good mood that the "ohh, edgy!" bit of wankery hasn't put me out of sorts in the slightest.
 
 
Princess
17:48 / 27.05.07
Way to engage with the conversation, Mako.
And you've certainly managed to reply to that accusation of bigotry in a balanced and relevant way.
 
 
Princess
17:54 / 27.05.07
Or, more concisely, I will have sympathy/joy/lust/whatever with you over in Convo.

Right here, in Temple, I am busy reacting to unpleasant and eyestabby things.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
18:07 / 27.05.07
Well to put it in a less concise way, it means that I don't have a "this is me performing magic" hat and a "this is me dealing with others" hat and a "this is the way I live my life" hat, but rather the one hat thats a fluid mixture of all three (and quite a few others) whose fluidity is often affected by external sources, that I cheerfully use to make my own.

In terms of magical practice, it means that I can invoke an entity quite easily (especially if they've made themselves known to me quite strongly in the past, such as Coyote) because I appreciate that aspects of them are already within me and that, setting aside the idea that "this is me with this hat" to understand that "this is me", even if they're nothing more than an idea they're an idea that I can give reality to.

In terms of my dealings with others it means that I can use these ideas in order to prevent stagnation, teaching them what I think they need to learn whilst also being taught what I need to learn, and accepting that though some leasons are harsh (very harsh in the case of Coyote at times) I can still learn from them.

In terms of living my life, it simply means that I don't take things so seriously.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:14 / 27.05.07
the "ohh, edgy!" bit of wankery hasn't put me out of sorts in the slightest.

You could have fooled me, puddin', but never mind. By the way, the "ooh, edgy" comment wasn't sterile masturbation purely for my own kicks. You made some ill-judged comments about religion which appeared (to me, at any rate) to be informed less by a desire to communicate some reasoned opposition to religion than by a desire to flash your cool iconoclast badge. I may be entirely unfair in my interpretation, but since your response has done sweet fanny adams to challenge it in any way I won't be weeping into my pillow over the possibility.

This, on the other hand: I don't have a "this is me performing magic" hat and a "this is me dealing with others" hat and a "this is the way I live my life" hat, but rather the one hat thats a fluid mixture of all three (and quite a few others) whose fluidity is often affected by external sources, that I cheerfully use to make my own

is a cracking good point. Well said, could not agree more. Of course one can be manifesting a bit more of one flavour (or colour or tone, pick yer preferred sense metaphor) at a particular time, but IME it is more useful to consider these as peaks along a continuum of experience rather than discrete states. I think if you have it going on at all then you have it going on most of the time, one aspect merging with and enhancing another. In the context of dancing with Persons of Restricted Embodiment (Coyote in your example above) then one very major aspect of the work is finding the Mysteries associated with that being inside yourself and carrying them into your work-a-day life, giving them expression in the world. If you're not doing that, then all you're doing is play-acting behind closed doors.

I'd also like to make a more general point here: it is very easy to hide behind the Trickster figure in order to get away with offensive behaviour or to avoid ever having to examine one's own prejudices. You see a lot of them round here; claiming to be Coyote/Anansi/a Holy Fool etc etc when called on your shit is pretty much a standard defence. Last year we had a freakin' Holocaust denier who tried to excuse everything by claiming that he was playing the valuable role of a mischevious pooka, here to keep things lively with his bold and challenging views.

You see how one might get a trifle weary of that sort of thing.
 
 
illmatic
19:45 / 27.05.07
Well to put it in a less concise way, it means that I don't have a "this is me performing magic" hat and a "this is me dealing with others" hat and a "this is the way I live my life" hat, but rather the one hat thats a fluid mixture of all three (and quite a few others) whose fluidity is often affected by external sources, that I cheerfully use to make my own

Well, yes, but does this mean you have anything that I would recognise as a magical practice? Or is it all kind of free-flowing, not really doing anything, but regardless, good luck and crazy coincidences ensue?

Backtracking.... I read The Temple largely out of habit, these days. A year or two back, I was really committed to it being a great space, not so much anymore (largely for reasons to do with the board's management and potential for upgrading, separate from the quality or otherwise or the contributions here)...

However, beyond habit, what I would really like to read is posts about others personal practices, giving away as much or as little as they chose to do (there are ways of writing about your own stuff which don't "spill the beans" I know, I've done it) that a) I find inspiring b) I find informative and c) most importantly, that I can learn from., posts that I can read and find the shards of others experinece in that I am moved and motivated by and want to pick up and carry back into my own practices. Writing that gives me a sense of learning something, of reciprocity. . If someone's practice is that vague that they can't actually define it or nail it down for me, beyond some pleasant coincidences and a bit of postive thinking, well, speaking selfishly, it's boring, I don't learn from it, it adds nothing new to The Temple and I think it's a waste of bandwidth.

So again, Mako, what do you actually do?
 
 
illmatic
19:50 / 27.05.07
PS Playing with photoshop is not magic, in my book.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
04:29 / 28.05.07
You could have fooled me, puddin', but never mind.

Well I started off in a good mood, read that, and my good mood didn't change - it still hasn't changed, and it's not going to for some time. I haven't actually responded to my "accusation of bigotry" in regards to religion and I probably won't anytime soon; in a stupid magic/spirituality thread where a seemingly stupid question is asked and I give a seemingly stupid answer, I'm not overly motivated to expand upon it in order to satisfy calls of etiquette instead of interest.

it is very easy to hide behind the Trickster figure in order to get away with offensive behaviour or to avoid ever having to examine one's own prejudices.

No it's not, it's actually pretty damn difficult because it makes one a prime target for Coyote. Tricksters generally shoot themselves in the foot at some point, and need the help of those they've offended to bail them out; good tricksters actually get bailed out instead of told to go screw themselves. What's so easy about fucking up majorly and then having to eat humble pie? It's easy to invoke the tricksters name, sure, but to invoke the trickster and invite him into ones home (instead of being blissfully ignorant to his hiding behind the sofa) is a different thing entirely.

Playing with photoshop is not magic, in my book.

Whilst photoshopping an image may not be as magical to you compared to whatever it is that you consider to be magical, to me it is, especially if in its creation I've managed to leave a semi-lasting impact on myself and the world I live in. It's even more magical to me because it's a syncretic blend of what I've been practicing over the past couple of decades, so that instead of setting aside invocations and what not in order to interact with the world outside my temple, I'm making the world my temple and having a jolly good time about it.

Well, yes, but does this mean you have anything that I would recognise as a magical practice?

I don't know - what do you able to recognise as a magical practice? You've already made mention of "Seeking out new people, committing to practice, take time out from a difficult daily routine, learning new skills, study" and I think that engaging and studying new people on a forum after taking time out from working in order to learn the new skill of photographic manipulation, and being committed to doing so no matter the negative responses, pretty much covers that.

If you prefer something with a more overtly magical flavor (such as the randomly synchronized theme music that went with the previously mentioned creation) then how about trying to combine BodyBuilding with QiGong, counselling a rape victim back into magic, and OOBE in order to storm dance with some elementals and offer some drought relief to my country? Your standards, no doubt, are different to mine as to what constitutes a magical practice and what constitues play acting, but in regards to moving you and teaching you I don't think the onus should be on me; if you can't be moved or taught, then perhaps you're simply starting to stagnate because you're too caught up in trying to be moved and taught, and doing so more out of habit than any real commitment?

So again, Mako, what do you actually do?

I do lots of things and just about everything I do I consider to be magical in some way; to me it's like meditation in that if you're only doing it for an hour a day and allowing your mind to go nuts for the other twenty three (unless its with purpose) then you're not really meditating. You might see things differently, in fact I hope you do and you're willing to say why, but to me that's pretty much what it's about.
 
 
illmatic
06:14 / 28.05.07
It's easy to invoke the tricksters name, sure, but to invoke the trickster and invite him into ones home (instead of blissfully ignorant to his hiding behind the sofa) is a different thing entirely.

I wish someone would tell this to the legion of trickster figures we’ve had marching through this board, disrupting our rigid reality tunnels with their krazy ways. It’s a message board trope that one gets a little tired of, y’know?

Whilst photoshopping an image may not be as magical to you compared to whatever it is that you consider to be magical, to me it is, especially if in its creation I've managed to leave a semi-lasting impact on myself and the world I live in. It's even more magical to me because it's a syncretic blend of what I've been practicing over the past couple of decades.

Fair enough. I can totally see how developing new skills using software, or creating collages and artwork would absolutely be “magical”. The example you presented lacked any wider context so I was a bit snarky, my apologies. Stilll, when I read the example you mentioned above I thought, “is that it?” Is that really magical practice? Just altering a photo of two work colleagues in Photoshop?” If this is magical, why is it so? I’m still not clear on this. How has using Photoshop caused “a semi-lasting impact on [yourself] and the world [you] live in”? How is it a “syncretic blend” of your practice?

what do you recognise as a magical practice?

I don’t really know if I want to define what I think is “magical practice” is in a didactic sense. I’m not the Pope, after all, and I don’t think I can offer up some kind of catch all definition. Even writing a “definition” makes me think someone should tell me to shut up (hopefully someone will!). However, I’ll take the plunge: what I’m interested in, what I try and do myself and what I see in writing I admire is some combination of the following:

Challenge. If you’re practicing, on some level, you should be looking for things which challenge yourself. This might mean deliberately being more compassionate in day to day interactions, it might mean getting up half an hour earlier to perform a certain ritual or meditation every day for a year, it might mean studying a language so you can better understand a sacred text. It might mean finding the time, money and courage, to learn a martial art. I’ve done all of these, on one level or another.

Creativity: I think this can’t be overstated. “Writing one’s own qabalah”, the creation of art, warping the techniques or whatever one has read about to fit one’s own life. Thinking creatively about one’s limitations and setting out to challenge them.

I would like to see some combination of the above in every discussion of practice in The Temple.

I do lots of things and just about everything I do I consider to be magical in some way

I think the problem here is that magic or magick if you prefer is such a free-floating signifier it can mean pretty much anything. If magic is simply “everything you do” how do you critique this? How do you share it with someone? How do you improve? How do you know you’re not lying to yourself? I’ve seen several people in this forum present acts and claim they were magical when IMO they were simply bullshitting themselves. The example that springs to mind is one poster’s claim that reading Ian Brady’s autobiography, and the subsequent stream of worried ideations he had, was a magical act. I really don’t think it was, and I think the identification as “magican” was just a little cocoon he was building.

in regards to moving you and teaching you I don't think the onus should be on me; if you can't be moved or taught, then perhaps you're simply starting to stagnate because you're too caught up in trying to be moved and taught, and doing so more out of habit than any real commitment?

Yes I may be jaded. In fact, I definitely am with regards to this board. I am annoyed with the limits to change imposed by the software and I am definitely growing apart from it. This is the longest post I’ve written for an eternity. However, what I’ve written above is a honest response to your posts on this forum. This is my reaction and it isn’t all simply me being a an old cynic. If you put stuff on a public forum, people are going to respond to it, snipe at it, disagree with it, react to it. Otherwise, why be on a discussion space?

In a sense, I’m trying to push for experiential, exciting writing on the board, rather than vague abstractions. People talking about magick in the abstract is singularly the most boring thing imaginable (Decadent Nightfalling, I’m talking to you as well). Vague wishwashy cosmic musings, back of a Rizla packet philosophising. For The Temple to be a good forum, a space worth coming back to and worth reading. it needs thoughtful experiential writing, grounded in experience.

Now personally, I would love to hear more about:

trying to combine BodyBuilding with QiGong, counselling a rape victim back into magic, and OOBE in order to storm dance with some elementals and offer some drought relief to my country

All of those grabbed my attention immediately. And I think a report on any one of those experiences, or a discussion of the issues and questions arising from them, could make a great thread (lots of sensitivity required with the second, obv). Whether you chose to share that stuff or not is up to you, but personally, is these kind of topics and others that I would like to read about it and would enjoy discussing. It's that kind of stuff that I take inspiration from.
 
 
This Sunday
06:33 / 28.05.07
Am I the only person who has no great urge to ever channel some trickster spirit deal?

A lot of my family have a good amount of the clown/reverse-action vibe, which is often similar, and our trickster figure, being the rabbit, is a bit less seedy and vindictive than a lot of other cultures trickster/mischief figures (such a broad term, really), but I don't think I'm either. I, rather, have a pretty solid conviction that were I to hold up a sign that read: trickster figure, right here! someone would shoot me, like Wile E Coyote. And I'd get right back up, and they'd shoot me again, just before something exploded.

Perhaps paranoia, Warner Bros. cartoons, and the Acme Corporation have messed up my magick channeling capacities, but - this is both a stupid and an honest question - why would you want to? Why would you want to be the trickster figure, who's either put upon, punished, attacked, or screwing up all on their own, no matter who else, if anyone, benefits?

Oh, and, Apophenia, in regards to your questions about critique, sharing, and knowing you're not lying to yourself, if you believe magick is everything you do or, perhaps, just everything, I would suggest that putting that level of significance on everything (or accepting/positing/witnessing that significance, depending on your perspective on the practice) should result in taking all of it that much more intently. Doing right, operating in the best possible way should be enhanced. It is for me, anyway. It's not necessary to have that perspective, to just try to be a good and functional person, no, but it hasn't hurt me so far as I can tell. I do wonder, when I note other people laying out their perspective as being all magickal, all of it if I mean the same thing they do, however.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:23 / 28.05.07
Now personally, I would love to hear more about:

trying to combine BodyBuilding with QiGong, counselling a rape victim back into magic, and OOBE in order to storm dance with some elementals and offer some drought relief to my country


Would you really? Because my response was less "your material intrigues me, please tell me more" and more "Urgh fuck, not another saviour of rape victims with mental mental mentalism who's decided that waving his subject around like a flag is not in any way distasteful and makes a really good demonstration of what a number-one super guy he is."
 
 
illmatic
08:47 / 28.05.07
Well, I did add a caveat about "sensitivity" for that one but yeah, I did blur my reactions to those three subjects together there. However, not everybody is Epop - see the recent thread that Saturn's Nod started on this subject.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:49 / 28.05.07
True. Sorry Mako, if you're reading this--don't think I've managed to hose all the Epopic residue out of my brane.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:54 / 28.05.07
Am I the only person who has no great urge to ever channel some trickster spirit deal?

Nah, you're not. I think the thing with Trickster Gods/spirits/whoevers is that you don't choose Them really, They choose you. People who appropriate the Trickster mantle to excuse away shitty behaviour or to add a little phoney glamour to their reactionary opinions are generally too fucking boring and stagnant to be said to be embodying so mercurial a spirit.
 
 
Saturn's nod
09:11 / 28.05.07
Thinking creatively about one’s limitations and setting out to challenge them.

Reading your words, in the second part of that sentence I found a disagreement. Here's a bit about how I see it for myself. It's about finding my limits as truth, as friends. Probably kindergarten stuff for the advanced magi here, but it's where I'm at and some might find use in it.

I feel I spent the whole of my early life outside my limits, crashing and hurting. I started to encounter my limits as an adult. I had a realisation a few years back now that accepting my limitations grounded my heart, opened a door somehow, brought me to the root of a state that's really soaked in compassion and from which I find it possible to make contacts with other humans without getting too far off-balance.

So my direction is the reverse of setting out to overcome my limitations - it's more an adventure about finding out what my appropriate limits are. Feels like I spent way too much time in my early life pushing myself on, outside my limits, far from comfort and safety. Instead my aim now is about identifying my right to care and comfort and safety, and holding onto a knowledge of my right to experience that space.

I know I can be semi competent at caring for others, out in the world, with effort and pain. I spent years in that mode and it comes easy in emergencies, but it's not the best of me. The mode that seems more promising to me now has to do with grounding myself in a sweet valley of the heart which is inside my limits: allowing myself to be humble and simple, trusting that by teaching myself that I deserve goodness and safety, practicing it for myself in the smallest stuff, I am doing right. I am immersing myself in the great creative river - I think of it like that - there is a power moving in this world towards truth and love and justice, respect and kindness and co-operation and soul-healing. My dedication is a tiny part of that movement, but every act in the direction of that river is an act of beauty and truth.

Somehow the limits of myself show me a new shape, and it looks like a centred, creative self. I think I've observed this same thing in a lot of other creative and sparky people I've met. If a person's reasonably talented, like a lot of the people who post here, I think the pressures of external conditioning mean it's too easy to work constantly off-centre, outside the home-ground of your soul. Maybe the new world that can come through our creativity is one where who we are can be feel truly at home, truly integrated in the ecology of the planet we share, and it needs the centred selves as a starting points?

It feels like an act of creative rebellion to allow myself to make a space feel at home, to allow myself to experience a centre of gravity to tell me what's up based on the holy power, and not the things of consumer society. A space where I practice and prefer the values I want to see permeate the whole of society. I guess it's a new way of seeing for me, where I get to see myself as whole and functional. It's a different frame, a different setup than the one that I learned as a child which defined me as lacking and disabled, pushed me into constantly trying to make up for being 'wrong' and not good enough, rather than finding how I was joyful and whole-hearted and building on that.
 
 
illmatic
09:30 / 28.05.07
Saturn's Nod: wow, that's a great post. A lot to digest there. The phrase of mine that you quoted I recognise as coming directly from my current practice - I had it in the back of my mind when I wrote. Specifically, it's working with the notion of kanchuckis, which means "sheaths" or "garments" and can also be translated as "limitations". I'm not ready to write about this at length yet, but have found in this work so far has put me on both sides of the fence with regards to "limitation" - seeing both what I can do, and what is possible, beyond limits and boundaries I set for myself, and seeing those limits I chose to accept. Your post there could really feed in fruitfully to that process. Cheers.
 
  

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