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X Men 2 (HUGE FUCKING SPOILERS)

 
  

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at the scarwash
23:06 / 02.05.03
Yeah (about the hulk--let's rot this thread a moment) the dogs are silly. But the LEAPING, man! And the twirling the tank that's only like twice as big as he is around and the smashing the helicopters, yes yes yes!!!
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
01:55 / 03.05.03
Damn, what a great remake of The Empire Strikes Back!

You're so right about that. In so many ways, it was like a X-Men Vs. The Empire Strike Back mash-up. And that's a very very good thing.

I was impressed pretty much the whole way through, my only major problems with the film are

a) Halle Berry utterly fails to bring Storm to life. That is not anything like what Storm is meant to be - she's supposed to be this aggressive, powerful presence - an African goddess. Berry seems confused and timid most of the time. She may be something like the bland Storm of post-Claremont X-Men, but I'd prefer her to be more like the Storm of Mutant Massacre-era X-Men. Berry seems to want out of the franchise, hopefully they will just hire someone better for the role for future films.

b) Where the hell was Cyclops for most of the film? Scott should be a far more central character, they just have him filling up space and mourning. What a waste, really. Scott's become one of my favorites since Grant Morrison started writing him - hopefully they'll touch on how messed up he is in future installments. I think it would be nice for Scott to be involved with Emma Frost when Jean makes her inevitable return as the Phoenix, and for some approximation of NXM #139 to take place. I refuse to believe that lameness is an "essential element" of Scott's character. It wouldn't be too hard for them to make Scott's uptight nature at least half as interesting as it is in New X-Men.

I was very happy to see little bits of Grant's ideas integrated into the film - the visual representation of Cerebro at work is lifted directly from NXM #114, for example. Also, there's the notion of mutants having their "mutant names," which is touched on when Pyro has his little conversation with Magneto and Mystique. There's a few other things, but I can't recall right now.

I loved Alan Cumming's Nightcrawler. Not a lot to say about it, he and the writers got it exactly right. So did the special effects guys - I think that the depictions of his and Magneto's abilities were the most impressive, though the special effects were almost uniformly clever and convincing by my standards.

I didn't know about Mastermind being in the film, and was very happy with how he was integrated into the story, though it made some things a little confusing.

I really loved the attack on the mansion. I thought that was an extremely effective sequence, and filmed very well. Siryn was used in the best way imaginable, and I was very happy with Colossus. They never do let you know where Colossus went with those kids - I think they should explain that in the next film, have the kids rescued from the Morlock tunnels, which can set up the Morlock massacre for a future film.

There's just a lot of little things that made me happy as a life long X-Men fan, I don't really need to mention everything. I think they nailed the tone and the pacing, it reminded me of why I liked the X-Men so much when I was a little kid. I started reading the X-Men just before the Mutant Massacre, and I think that the X-Men concept works best when the group is in a state of constant panic and with the odds stacked against them. I like when the X-Men are on the run. This film was all about that - that's why the Empire Strikes Back was so great too. It's more exciting when the heroes don't seem to have a chance and are in constant danger.

I also liked that the X-Men-as-metaphor-for-homosexuality thing was foregrounded a few times, particulary when Bobby 'comes out' to his parents. Bobby and Rogue were really well done too, by the way.

Yeah. I rate X-Men 2 very highly. It's 200% improvement over the first film. The crowd I was in seemed to really love it, too.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
02:25 / 03.05.03
If I may...


the last hour of the movie almost completely lost me. it looked like a bad Claremont comic.


Let me remind you that without the 17 years that Chris Claremont put in on his original run on the X-Men in the 70s and 80s, there would be no X-Men movie, much less a sequel. There would be no Grant Morrison X-Men. There would be almost nothing. Nearly every idea in the film came out of Chris Claremont's head. If you feel that the film was getting too "Chris Claremont," then fuck yes, it was an excellent adaptation of the source material. X-Men is supposed to be that way, man. It's supposed to have a million characters going in a million directions, and the convoluted nature of the story is part of the appeal, and one of the major triumphs of Grant Morrison's New X-Men and the Bryan Singer X-Men films is that it captures that while toning down the more obnoxious elements of Claremont's style. But let's get one thing very clear: X-Men = Chris Claremont.

with unnecessary Jean Grey death in the end.

Jean's death and rebirth as The Phoenix is a major part of the X-Men mythos, and they were wise to end the film as they do to set up the Phoenix story.

Back to the Empire Strikes Back thing - Jean's apparent death = Han's capture, Pyro = Lando Calrissian. Or maybe Magneto is Lando.
 
 
videodrome
02:31 / 03.05.03
Nightcrawler was just perfect, despite the distinct lack of blue fuzz. Let's get some kids from Pixar over to Fox so they can work some Monsters Inc magic on Hank, eh?

And many things Flux mentioned - the Morlock tunnels, the kids, Mastermind as drawn by Byrne shortly after Phoenix has taken control, and the tone which hit the early and mid-'80s Claremont soap opera style so well.

One thing, though: can someone PM to describe the end of the last shot of the film, between the middle of the narration and the credits? That's exactly when the lightning hit and crapped the fucking theatre out this afternoon...if it's just more water, no need to bother.
 
 
CameronStewart
05:22 / 03.05.03
I just got back from seeing this and I have to say I fucking LOVED IT. And I'm not even an X-Men fan beyond the current Morrison version. There wasn't a single moment where I winced or rolled my eyes or wished they "hadn't done that" - it struck every note perfectly. A perfect comic book movie.

Lots of silly little "easter eggs" for us comic nerds - when Mystique is hacking Stryker's computer there's a folder marked "Franklin Richards"....

I don't know why you need a PM, videodrome - this thread is clearly marked as spoiler-infested. The final shot is of the lake, with a faint, fiery birdlike shape beneath the water's surface...
 
 
Hieronymus
06:40 / 03.05.03
Wow. I am absolutely floored. Just got back from having seen it and I loved it so much I'm glad I'm seeing it again tomorrow. Giddy as a schoolgirl glad.

I agree the Easter Eggs were the best bit (It's Doc. McCoy! Ooo! Next time let's see how many blue people we can fit in a sequel. God knows Peyo must be considering his film options) but I think what I just enjoy most of all is Singer's revising of the comic mythos, his long overdue overhaul of just all the stacks and stacks of crap that have made up the X-Men universe (his take on Rogue is second only to the Goth Rogue of X-Men: Evolution in my book); the way Pyro was handled as a gloriously played Judas. Wolvie's past connection to Stryker. All the beautiful tangled web of it. And quite frankly the Phoenix thing at the end made me smile from ear to ear (Sweep that cosmic entity bullshit aside, Brian, and chuck it out with the orange peels and coffee grounds).

That's what turned me off the X-Men for years. All the goddamn conviluted continuity. So this was like a breath of sweet spring air for me. I'll take Singer's leaner, meaner version any day of the week.

Any speculations on what the 3rd film will be about? Sentinels? Legacy virus? Raging disco fever?
 
 
perceval
07:04 / 03.05.03
"Any speculations on what the 3rd film will be about? Sentinels? Legacy virus? Raging disco fever? "

Well, I'd say the ending of this movie establishes what one of the things will be. Famke's already confirmed she's signed for X3, as are Rebecca and Cumming.

E
 
 
Seth
11:20 / 03.05.03
What a brilliant, brilliant film. It's the perfect sequel, making the first film seem much better and making you insane with anticipation for X-Men 3. For my money, it seemed much more Wrath of Khan than Empire Strikes Back; the villain is connected to the histories of more than one character; the mind control schitck is present and correct; a psychic character sacrifices themselves while the escape route is jump-started. Singer is on record as stating that these two films were used as the blueprint for what he was attempting, and I think he did a sterling job.

Yes, Cyclops was absent for far too long. Annoyed the hell out of me, but that should be readdressed in the next movie. If he doesn't have an enormous role in that film it will be a massive injustice.

I reckon Singer is going to do something very smart with his explanation of the Phoenix for the next movie. In X2, Jean tells Scott that she hasn't been the same since Liberty Island. However, if we're to track down any one moment in the first film where the progression in her powers would have started, it has to be when she uses Cerebro to trace Rogue - the point at which she is in contact with hundreds of thousands of mutants (possibly all mutants). Singer is unlikely to refer to Phoenix as an alien entity - if he's smart, he'll make it the personification of the evolutionary process, milking the concept of death and rebirth for all its worth. Phoenix therefore becomes the archetyptal mutant, the primal force of adaptation and survival.

I loved Magneto and Mytique's whole Nation of Islam routine. It transformed the code-name into the chosen name, from a silly superhero convention into part of a revolutionary movement. Mystique's exchange with Nightcrawler is further evidence.

Colossus gave me wood. Jamie Madrox was also named on the list while Mystique was hacking. Shadowcat steals top secret government files. God I love this movie. Flux is spot on with his Claremont observations. This is Claremont's X-Men made flesh, and I cannot wait for the first Fastball Special (the one in the first movie doesn't count, we want Colossus, not a combination of Storm and Jean).
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
11:25 / 03.05.03
It seems like the next one will deal with the Phoenix. They probably will introduce the Sentinels (probably resembling Grant's version and not the giant-sized robots), and hopefully include the Hellfire Club and the Morlock tunnels. Odds seem pretty even that Beast will added to the cast, and I'm hoping for Emma Frost too.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
11:41 / 03.05.03
I really like your streamlined idea of what the Phoenix is, Reflect.

I was thinking about how to structure the next film, and they could start it all off with a few of the X-Men rescuing Colossus's group of kids from the Morlock tunnels, introducing the E Is For Extinction type Sentinels, and in the end of the film have those Sentinels wipe out the Morlocks, conflating the Morlock and Genoshan massacres. It may be wise to have Magneto die in this sequence, martyring him and having Mystique take over the leadership of the Brotherhood.
 
 
Seth
11:56 / 03.05.03
I know that Singer has mentioned Days of Future Past in at least one interview. If I were to introduce the Sentinels as Grant Morrison's version (adapting robots, a nice thematic mirror for the mutants), I'd have them invented by Forge (to explain the unfeasible technology) and mirror the love story between him and Storm against Scott and Jean (mutation out of control vs technology out of control). However, I'll have to turn off these geek fantasies now, or I'll be in danger of writing a much better film in my head than can possibly exist on screen.

Or Flux and I can just contact Singer and turn in a screenplay...
 
 
Seth
12:01 / 03.05.03
Plus Grant Morrison's Sentinels is a lovely way of shoehorning in elements of the Brood mythos without actually having to do the whole Aliens thing. Mix in the nano-Sentinels taking control of people until and you've got a Borged up version of the Brood. Alas, I fear there's no way to bring in the flying sharks, no matter how fucking cool they are.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
12:26 / 03.05.03
I like the idea of Forge creating the Sentinels, not just to explain the implausible technology, but also for the introduction of a mutant character who is entirely uninterested in mutant rights, only financial gain. He'd be a perfect character to introduce. If it were up to me, he would have a flirtation with Storm, but not a full romance. There's just not enough time, you know?

All of the ideas that I have for X3 seem to give little room for the Phoenix stuff - maybe that could wait for X4.
 
 
CameronStewart
12:54 / 03.05.03
>>>> However, if we're to track down any one moment in the first film where the progression in her powers would have started, it has to be when she uses Cerebro to trace Rogue - the point at which she is in contact with hundreds of thousands of mutants (possibly all mutants)<<<

I'll preface this by saying I haven't seen it for myself, but someone was telling me last night that in the X-Men 1.5 dvd, which is a sort-of "director's cut," there's a scene that suggests that Jean's Phoenix mutation was triggered by Magneto's weapon (which, if you remember, was meant to kickstart mutations in ordinary humans).

It's morning and the first thought that popped into my head when I got out of bed was how much I loved X2 last night.
 
 
Spaniel
13:47 / 03.05.03
This film is the shit.

Glad others noticed the phoenix shape beneath the water at the end, I thought I might have imagined it.

According to Glass Onion there is a file on Stryker's system that reads "project wide awake" - apparently the original name for the Sentinel programme.
 
 
Tamayyurt
14:19 / 03.05.03
That was so great! A little thing I liked that reminded me of the beginning of E for Extinction was that the movie started with a little talk about Neanderthals and Cro-Magnon man. And yeah, Storm was still lame but she was much improved since the first film s I just happy for that. On thing though, during the attack on the school I was half hoping Bobby would ice up.
 
 
Persephone
15:55 / 03.05.03
Hrrh, there was also a little hint in the first X-Men DVD that wasn't in the movie about Jean losing control in that first scene where she's testifying to the government. I wish they had more of that, I think that Jean's arc in the movies isn't as developed as it ought to be.
 
 
Hieronymus
16:14 / 03.05.03
Personally I go back and forth between wanting to see viral Sentinels or giant machines of Holocaust proportions. I used to loathe the giant Sentinels until I saw the new cartoon's take on them and Grant's use of them was just absolutely horrifying. After everyone being attacked in the heed by Prof X, I'd love to see a threat that's like the hand of God coming down on top of them.

It's a real tricky thing from here on out. Singer has to plug into some pretty hugely farcical threats to raise the bar from this one, without handing the audience too much (The new cast members like Beast et al are something I'm worried about in making the team just way too damn top-heavy). As long as they keep Gambit just a kid pirate with a smirk and not some bodice-ripping twit, I'll be happy. As for the Beast, anybody else hope they do Grant's tribute to Cocteau?

Singer is unlikely to refer to Phoenix as an alien entity - if he's smart, he'll make it the personification of the evolutionary process, milking the concept of death and rebirth for all its worth. Phoenix therefore becomes the archetyptal mutant, the primal force of adaptation and survival.

I love that, reflect. Took my breath away when I saw it last night for those very reasons.

Gah. I want the third one out right da fook now.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:32 / 03.05.03
Aww, that was amazing. I totally resign from Homo Sapiens and I want to be on Magneto and Mystique's side because Magneto did that "No, what's your real name?" thing and smashed up that plastic prison with that guy's blood. I've got 5 cusps on one of my back molars instead of 4 so that makes me sort of a mutant. My special power would be Hair Mocking. I want to mock hair for Magneto.

And thank fuck that I'm not the only one who saw that bird thing in the sea afterwards. I thought I was going to be explaining that to everyone, like the origami unicorn in Bladerunner.
 
 
Mike-O
17:41 / 03.05.03
Someone want to please explain to me why Jason was a guy in reality and a little girl in Xavier's head? Why the sex-change?
 
 
YNH
18:38 / 03.05.03
Xavier threatened Wolverine with that existence, too. Maybe that's why Stryker was so mad at him?

Anyway, thank you all for noticing more than I did on the monitor. The only thing that could possibly equal Nightcrawler in a movie might be Franklin Richards.

I would have liked to see more of Iceman using his powers for good - like freezing lakes - rather than product placement.

It actually looked to me like Storm was being set up to lead the team in the next movie, whether we'd like it or not.
 
 
Ganesh
23:17 / 03.05.03
Ooh! Ooh! Ooh!

Just back, just seen - I am Ganesh Cumming. Like many on this thread, I'm not even a dyed-in-the-wool x-fan, but I know enough about the mythos to massively enjoy the 'Easter eggs', amongst other things.

Disagreed slightly with Xoc over Nightcrawler, because he hates Alan C., who I quite like. Thought the 'blue smoke' teleporting effect was stunning (although the old 'I might 'port into a wall' thing was slightly unconvincing given Nightie's ability to bamf in and out of a moving aircraft...). Nightcrawler in general was rather lovely - although, with relatively few truly weird-looking x-people in Singer's version, it's looking like the x-gene is linked to the gene(s) for blue skin and yellow eyes...

Assumed Mastermind manifested as a little girl because, had he appeared as Li'l Jason, Xavier would've recognised him within the flashback and resisted more. And, y'know, to show that Prof X ain't queer or nuthin'.

Thought poor old Lady Deathstrike got a raw deal: she and Wolvie could've had the ultimate pervy SM relationship. Actually, with Nightcrawler cutting himself, Wolverine stubbing cigars out in his hand and Iceman saying 'g'waaan, suck my life essence', there was more than a hint of masochism.

The DVD does indeed suggest - strongly - that Jean's powers began to shift during Magneto's Liberty Island effect. The nods toward the Phoenix were masterful; Singer knows exactly how to play the fanboys.

Beast was always one of my favourites, so I'm really happy his entrance was foreshadowed. Anyone see any hint of Angel(s) to come?
 
 
straylight
04:09 / 04.05.03
Ganesh, I didn't see any hint of Angel to come (though I might not notice) but I did read an article somewhere saying that Singer had intended to include him, up to having the effects people build a 15-foot wingspan, but then left him out instead.

I just got back from seeing this and I am giddy. I only wish I hadn't seen it alone; I needed to yammer at the end. But that is what Barbelith is for, no?

I'm SO glad a lot of you saw the shape under the water because I couldn't tell if I just wanted to see it, or if it was really there - even though the hints had been there all the way through the movie. Question, though, for those more versed in the lore than I: what was the story behind the original manifestation of the Phoenix? I've read the famous storyline where Phoenix comes back, she/Jean rages through space, eats a planet, the battle on the dark side of the moon, etc, but I was never clear on what happened the first time. (Maybe this is a question for the comics thread, and if so, my apologies.)

Also (ducking head in not-nerdy-enough posture), who are Franklin Richards and Jamie Madrox?

There was something so perfect about the casting of Pyro; something about his face just suggests moral ambiguity. I can't quite figure out what it is.

And I'm one for the tiny little details - I LOVED the way the X in 20th Century Fox stays on the screen just a frame or two longer than the logo, at the very beginning, in gray. Beautiful.

I can't even make paragraphs, I just want to go see it again.
 
 
CameronStewart
04:25 / 04.05.03
>>>Also (ducking head in not-nerdy-enough posture), who are Franklin Richards and Jamie Madrox?<<<

Franklin is the son of Reed and Sue Richards, aka Mister Fantastic and Invisible Girl from the Fantastic Four. He's a super-powerful psionic mutant.

Jamie Madrox is the Multiple Man.
 
 
CameronStewart
04:58 / 04.05.03
MY question is, what exactly does Xavier do to "stop time" in the museum food court and again in the Oval Office? If I remember correctly the tv keeps on playing while everyone is frozen, so I'm guessing that Charlie just used his mighty mind powers to hold everyone in place (which is, forgive me, stretching credibility a bit). But later in the Oval Office when everyone freezes, the lights go out and the X-Men appear in the blink of an eye. If Charles is again just holding everyone in the office in place, wouldn't the tv broadcast still be going on? And how do they all instantly disappear again? Nightcrawler can't teleport everyone at once...

This didn't hamper my enjoyment of the film one bit, but thinking about it, it;s the one part of the film that leaves me a bit confused.
 
 
Rage
08:07 / 04.05.03
The first scene was one of the best opening movie scenes Ever and Mystique with the needle was just plain sexy and that "find all the mutants... find all the mutants" litte girl bit was just plain trippy. I always knew Magneto and Professor X were buddy buddy and that the Cerebro existed.

But ya, Halle needs to go. What a joke!

Anyone else laugh at the protest news clip?

The homosexuality comparison was one that I've been making for a long time, not that I think any Hollywood mutants stole my idea or anything.

The Matrix 2 trailer was an agent doing a Powerade commercial.
 
 
diz
08:07 / 04.05.03
But later in the Oval Office when everyone freezes, the lights go out and the X-Men appear in the blink of an eye. If Charles is again just holding everyone in the office in place, wouldn't the tv broadcast still be going on? And how do they all instantly disappear again? Nightcrawler can't teleport everyone at once...

my impression of that was that the X-Men were never actually there in the first place. Charlie telepathically downloaded the whole scene into the President's head from afar, and it only appeared to take longer than a few seconds from the President's subjective perspective.
 
 
Spaniel
08:30 / 04.05.03
What? Was there a file on Jamie Madrox? Please say yes.

Love him.
 
 
Ganesh
08:30 / 04.05.03
I assumed that the 'time-stopping' was Xavier pausing the neurocognitive processing of everyone in the room for a moment (time doesn't actually stop; just their perception of it). In the Oval Office at the end, the broadcast halts because Storm has whipped up an electrical, uh, storm which momentarily shorts the cameras.

Dunno the rationale for them getting in and out of there at the end; I'd assumed it wasn't a telepathic download because Rogue hands over the very corporeal dossier on Stryker. Perhaps the President's time perception is altered while Nightcrawler 'ports them all in and out, one by one?

Re: Angel, Singer does indeed state on the 1.5 DVD commentary that Angel, like Beast, was cut from his original team as a result of restrictive special effects budgets. Just wondered if anyone had noticed any foreshadowing for the next film. What was Angel's 'civilian' name again?
 
 
Spaniel
08:32 / 04.05.03
Yep, just what I thought. But really, who fucking cares?
 
 
Ganesh
08:52 / 04.05.03
Cameron Stewart, evidently.
 
 
The Strobe
09:38 / 04.05.03
It is SO long since I've been terminally excited about a film. And this thing lived up to it. Every second of it.

It didn't really stop - there was so much crammed in there, and it just all really hung together wonderfully for me. Singer has the right take in that he takes it all very seriously, and relatively maturely; the humour is amusing, not vain attempts to lighten the tone.

I like the Empire comparison. A friend said that basically X-Men was lacking the big action sequence at the end... which is what X2 is. Personally, I'd say that the first one was X0, this is the real X-Men, and so the real X2 is just going to be pant-wettingly brilliant.

Other favourite scenes: the wall of ice, Stryker and Wolverine touching hands through it. Magneto's escape; loved the effects, as mentioned earlier. Real upping of the nastiness stakes: that fight between Deathstrike and Wolverine (prod-prod-prod), Wolvie laying into the soldiers, but more to the point, for me, the scene of the movie:

Wolverine emerging from the tunnel in Alkali Lake, claws extended, covered in blood. Yee-owch. Singer knows how not to pull punches at the important moments.

Also: Singer's somehow got the kids right. X-Men Young Team are a bit more awkward, hopefully they'll be properly realised in X3 (though Pyro was great, solid acting and the whole Judas thing came out nicely. Oh, and I loved fiddling with the lighter). But the kids work; the whole balance between education of the youth (as to how to realise what they are) and education of the adults (as to how to live with mutants). Colossus was great.

There are just so many favourite moments in this film, and that's what makes it special for me. I loved every second of it, even Halle Berry being shit (though less shit than in the first one).

But the stand-out sequence, so long ago for me: the opening. Bamf indeed. Cumming was inspired; I know relatively little of Nightcrawler, but the whole timid/Catholic/penitence thing was great in my book... and that sequence... Singer really captured precisely how disorientating the whole thing should be; Nightcrawler's momentum is changing every second, and so the eye is following him one way when he appears from another. It was pretty much perfect. And hurrah to the effects boys for getting more money; bamf looked brilliant.

I cannot wait for the DVD. Really. Like I said, it lived up to every expectation and then some. Bring on X3.
 
 
The Strobe
09:41 / 04.05.03
This is why the film is good: you keep remembering other cool bits.

The grenade pins.
 
 
penitentvandal
11:04 / 04.05.03
I was kind of hoping the black girl in Xavier's study at the end would turn out to be Angel Salvatore in the next film, and they'll just forget about Posh Boy and include her in X3 instead, because she's just loads more interesting.

But, given that I'm fairly sure she didn't have wings, I reckon I'm on a hiding to nothing there.
 
 
Ganesh
11:08 / 04.05.03
Another Phoenix teaser: in an interview with the film's costume designer, she describes the long, blue/grey leather coat Jean wears in the scene with Storm and Nightcrawler, in the church; it's apparently got a load of oriental-style silk embroidery on the back but, instead of a dragon, there's a phoenix wreathed in flames.
 
  

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