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X Men 2 (HUGE FUCKING SPOILERS)

 
  

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bio k9
19:55 / 08.05.03
Yeah, lets use this thread to be snippy and insult each other.
 
 
Ganesh
20:07 / 08.05.03
Quite.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
21:20 / 08.05.03
No no, let's use it to make leaps that would shame the poster of that very name with their "and I suppose you're in favour of eating BABIES???!?" absurdity.

Oh, wait...

And I suppose you are all perfectly happy with the idea of perversity being a husband slapping a wife for no apparent reason, or of a married businessman arranging secret parties in hotels to practice asphyxophilia while dressing in girls' panties.

There we are!

Sebastian: I made a point of saying how much I liked the moral ambiguity and ethical quagmire that I think the film is steeped in. Yes, Logan could and arguably should have taken Stryker in, alive. Jason should arguably not have been left to die; Logan arguably could have taken out those soldiers in a less bloody and fatal manner. You seem to have two conflicting complaints here: the mind-control is a moral get out clause that doesn't allow Kurt to be morally questionable, but at the same time you object to other morally questionable acts done by the "good" guys..
 
 
Sebastian
13:14 / 09.05.03
Oh, then, you are taking the easy stride, talking about morals and supposeddly "good guys". You know, I could be discussing this at the Millar forum, which trust me, is a bit embarrasing for myself just to open and look at the posts... and I have a very honest affection for this site which does not honor a person nor was created just to discuss when and where do we have the next beer, but rather in the name of a concept, which whatever it means for each of us, it definitely has to do with our human quality, or call it values, or even our potential for evolution, trends very much discussed here around Barbelith... in contrast to a rather poor attention to most action movies, which also have their corresponding place here.

And yes, we all come here right out of a comic book, just as this movie also does, and incidentally the corresponding author happens to coincide in both books at this point in time. So I do think this movie has gathered and still deserves a little bit more of attention than the last Jean Claude Van Damme flick, or Blade 5, with an emphasis in what has gone apparently undigested, and myself, at least for one or two voices, saying that no, this is not the type of comic book film I'd like to see, now or in the future, since there are too many trends that definitely fail to represent anything that has to do with the heroic genre, nor even with human values.

I mean, the film could have been perfectly fun and entertaining while at the same time hold true to its original inception, just as many action films are funny and entertaing, but I sort of regret that it decidedly fails to hold to the human values I hold and actually work for, and worse, that it escapes most of the teen-adult audience it is targeted to, since now human values appear to be okay with saving "humanity" and also lamelessly abandoning people to die. And unless you tell me this was a black humour movie, then just explain me how fun it is to show your tongue to a man tied to a wall that is about to die. For me, that was taken right out of a propagandistic easy-kill/easy-live prisoner camp mind-environment at a time in which still too many parallel notions are predating the international atmosphere, and worse, from a character that decidedly does not match its original inception.

And I do not have conflicting notions over the movie, oh no, and I will say it clearer then that I am decidedly sick of finding this "I was mind-washed" thing in movies, rather than "I have shit in my mind which I have to really wipe and reorganise, because I can't attempt to kill presidents while I want to save the specie at the same time, since I've just realised there must be better, finer ways than stabbing", but of course, that was really too difficult because nobody involved in the making could figure out any of the "better, finer ways".

The shit that is being delivered for your delight and munching in this movie is just as translatable to international affairs deciding on the well fare of many in which saying at some point "ooops, we are sorry, we were really acting right out of a delusional system we can't control, in fact, we are as good as a babies" will seemingly be much more excusable than actually going "we were wrong, we were plain wrong, and now we'll work to ammend our minds and then the world". And I mean international affairs just as I could have meant any context that is already working like this or towards it.

That said, I won't add much then on the shitty drug-mind-control trend. Some will start wondering why they don't have marks in their napes. Others will maybe realise that drugs are not really needed to make "murder" go unnoticed. In any scale.

I work for a better, finer world. This movie doesn't.
 
 
nihraguk
13:16 / 09.05.03
I think you're stretching things a bit there, Flyboy. While it is all well and fine for us to sit back and point out morally questionable aspects of the film, like Logan leaving Stryker behind to the flood, the fact is the film itself does not seem to highlight, or even be -aware- of the existence of such moral ambiguities. The camera pays little to no attention to the eventual fate of both Stryker and Jason -- or the fact that they're even left there to face the flood. In fact, it could be argued that the film's treatment of Logan leaving Stryker behind is ... almost comic -- the way a reference is established to the start of the movie by that mutant kid sticking out his tongue -- hardly the kind of treatment I think would be given to a serious theme in the movie concerning the ambiguities of morality. That part, I believe, is just us imposing our morality on the film, as opposed to discerning a sort of thematic idea the film is attempting to explore about morality, and this refers to both the notion that it is morally disgusting to leave Stryker/Jason behind, as it is morally ambiguous to do so. The film doesn't seem to give two hoots about it.
 
 
Ganesh
13:35 / 09.05.03
Sebastian: sure, but one could readily cite countless other examples within the action movie genre of dubious morality; the good guy is rarely morally 'good'. Perhaps some of the varying response to 'X-Men 2' is down to individual expectations of the film? I, for one, did not see it in anticipation of its somehow helping to deliver a "better, finer world"; if that had been my expectation, I'm sure I would've been vastly disappointed.
 
 
Jack Fear
13:42 / 09.05.03
I work for a better, finer world. This movie doesn't.

Advice for the young: GET THE FUCK OVER YOURSELF.
 
 
Sebastian
14:20 / 09.05.03
I agree, Jack.
 
 
Ray Fawkes
14:23 / 09.05.03
I sort of regret that it decidedly fails to hold to the human values I hold and actually work for

I always thought one of the most interesting questions raised in the X-Men books (and most recently spotlighted in "New X-Men") is whether or not human values apply to mutants. Especially since so many humans seem prepared to ditch their values in favor of eliminating the "mutant threat". Should mutants respond as a moral example, or should they fight with everything they've got? Put it another way: are they going to evolve in a social sense as well as a physical one? Should they try?
 
 
doctorbeck
15:16 / 09.05.03
persephone said:

>wolfies hair isn't infused with admantium. It's got healing factor. >No matter what you do to it, voop! it goes back in place.
nice theory but...
can one of the continuity kings tell us if wolfies hair was like that BEFORE the weapon x programme, if so then healing factor and mutie hair, if not adamantium

i would suggest that he would have to shave almost hourly if he had healing factor hair however.

andrew

ps nice thoughts on morality and murder in the x-universe, however it's friday and my brain is reqady for weekend stuff, so can't speak on that.
 
 
Mr Tricks
16:29 / 09.05.03
NightCrawler:
In the White House it never occured to me that Nightcrawler was actually going to kill the President. I initially thought he was working for Magneto and this was a "scare tactic" ... Once Stryker came into the picture it seems like he had set this up. Once the little circle on the nape of his neck was revealed I was certain this was a Styker setup, devised not to actually kill the President but to frighten him into supporting Stryker's plan.
This seemed reinforced by the little not on the knife reading Mutant Liberation NOW! IF it was an actual murder attempt why have a not attached when the murder would be message enough. As it was, it read as a threat... you know...Next time "we" won't miss...

Later in the film I did find it odd that Nighcrawler didn't attempt to save "Jason." It could have been argued that he was unsure if he was even alive after 'porting the Professor out of their... or someone else just said "let's go!"

As for Wolverine Leaving Stryer behind... when I first saw stryker chained to that wall it instantly inspired thoughts of the greek myth of Ixion.
  • He is significant in many respects, but is chiefly known as the first human to shed kindred blood.
  • To punish him, Zeus bound Ixion to a winged (sometimes flaming) wheel, which revolved in the air in all directions. Also, by order of the gods, Ixion was forced to call out continuously call out: "You should show gratitude to your benefactor." Ixion became one of the more famous sinners on display on Tartarus, and most writers mention him when describing the place.


Maybe that's just me reading into it... but it made sence when it came to Wolverine makeing a choice.
Either free Stryker in persuit of his "animal" past and in doing so "dis" his benefactor Professor X.
Or leave Stryker (and his "animal past) behind and devote himself to the X-dream of peace for future generations as personafied by the child he held in his arms.

Sure the greater heroic act would've been to save them both. Risking the snake bite effect... (you've heard the story of the person who finds an injured snake nurses it to helth & is then bitten, because it was in the snakes nature to bite, even the person who helped it)...
However it stuck me that this wasn't the seasoned hero we read about in New-X-meN, and his act of a heroic choice was enough... allowing Stryker to face the Karma of his own actions in that flood...

If he was left to burn to death in an explosion or say his base burned down then it would read to me like the eternal damnation of hell, the pit of fire & such. However the flood read symbolicly as the purification from his sins, especially in relation to the implicit "re-birth" of the Phoenix... maybe he'll be born as a mutant bug in his next life...
 
 
CameronStewart
16:37 / 09.05.03
>>>In the White House it never occured to me that Nightcrawler was actually going to kill the President...I was certain this was a Styker setup, devised not to actually kill the President but to frighten him into supporting Stryker's plan<<<

Absolutely. Nightcrawler was never going to kill the president (why stand over him and bare his teeth in a scary way instead of just knifing him?) - Stryker set it up so that he could convince the president to approve the raid on the "mutant hideout."
 
 
Sebastian
16:59 / 09.05.03
Yes, the set-up, the teeth, and the knife, I tell ya, I was indeed looking after a bolder movie -and not necessarily a presidential assassination. Pretty fluffy for my taste.
 
 
Persephone
17:07 / 09.05.03
if wolfies hair was like that BEFORE the weapon x programme, if so then healing factor and mutie hair, if not adamantium

You're right! Let's geek on over to the Geeky X-Men thread and ask. But don't you think that his hair was like that before he became an X-Man? Because obviously they made his helmet specially to fit his hairdo.

i would suggest that he would have to shave almost hourly if he had healing factor hair however.

But see, maybe what his beard heals back to is "medium stubble, with sideburns."
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
17:20 / 09.05.03
I'm wondering why anyone would expect a guy who slaughtered/maimed dozens of soldiers at the mansion earlier in the film to rescue a man who tried to murder an enormous number of people and placed all of his friends in grave danger. It is already established that both Wolverine is willing to kill people, and the decision to save Stryker is not up to the rest of the X-Men. What's the confusion? This is well within the character of Wolverine, dating back to very early on in Chris Claremont's Uncanny X-Men run.
 
 
deja_vroom
18:56 / 09.05.03
Flux: Totally. I was suprised, in fact, that Wolverine didn't kill Stryker the first time they meet outdoors, by the helicopter. Instead, Logan just tied him to the helicopter wheels and left. When I saw it, it struck me as really a "non-Wolverine move". Stapling the guy to the side of the helicopter with the claws would be more like him...
 
 
Mr Tricks
18:58 / 09.05.03
maybe what his beard heals back to is "medium stubble, with sideburns."

As Hair is dead cells... Maybe Wolvie's Hair & Burns grow relative to his healing factor. He could shave it with no worries but once his healing factor has to kick in hair & such grows in relation. That could explain his more tame 'do in the first movie but after the trauma of the Liberty Island incident his healing factor had to compensate and the side effect was his mutant hair helmet...

 
 
videodrome
19:37 / 09.05.03
I was indeed looking after a bolder movie -and not necessarily a presidential assassination. Pretty fluffy for my taste.

Lesse. May opening. Has got a happy meal and a videogame tie-in. Is part of a franchise.

Sallah and Indy, in unison: "They're digging in the wrong place!"

You want bold, go see Irreversible.
 
 
_pin
21:01 / 10.05.03
First of all: I can't face wading back thru this thread to find the guy who complained about Nightcrawler being mind-controlled to kill the president as cheap and only to "service the plot", but I'd still like to just ask- the fuck? It was hardly dues ex machina. IT WAS THE FUCKING PLOT.

And yeh, "mind control" is kind of a cop out, but then no one ever pointed to Stryker and said he was under mind control. The way I saw it, and I don't know what his comic's character was like, but he just FUCKING HATED MUTANTS. He thought they were being mutants to annoy. The whole revenge trip for the death of his wife didn't come across as the main motive- mostly it was just his hatred of mutants.

And now to Pyro. Stupid, fuckwitted wanker Pyro.

The biggest problem with this movie was that I didn't sit by a wall so I could fuck it with my face to get away from him. Right from that bit in the caffeteria at the start. JUST FUCKING GIVE HIM THE LIGHTER YOU SHIT-FACED WHINING COCK. They were evidently really fucking desperate for a light if they were willing to actually stand there and not kick his face in. It's a fucking itrritating face.

But now Magneto won't have to have an elaborate plan with some super-camp posing next time he wants to whipe out humanity. All he has to do is film Pyro talking about that time in grade school when he dropped his sandwiches on the floor and someone laughed and couldn't they see the pain and sadness? COULDN'T THEY SEE HIS PAIN AND SADNESS WAS MORE SAD AND PAINFUL THEN HIS?? and then show it on TV and the whole world will spontaneously claw their own eyes out and shove them in their ears and then eat their stomachs because fucking anything would be better then having to his stupid crappy stupid whiny stupid stupid bollocks any fucking more.

But I was rather disappointed that he and Magneto didn't actually stroke hands in their little lighter exchange moment, as it seemed one of the most obvious slashtastic relationships.

Did anyone else never feel that humanity was actually under threat? It seemed too big to actually hold on to... Which makes me a bit uneasy about the whole Phoenix thing. She's pretty big, isn't she?
 
 
doctorbeck
08:37 / 12.05.03
from the xmen comic thread



There an issue of the Wolverine series several years ago where Wolverine got a crew cut in order to try and disguise himself and the hair grew back to its "natural" state in a few panels or pages.



so at leat this is cleared up in the comics continuity.shall we accept this for film continuity too my fellow x-geeks?

a
 
 
Ethan Hawke
14:12 / 12.05.03
Flyboy sez

And when Jean was speaking through the Professor and saying goodbyeeee, I felt sure Scott was going to kiss him/her.

Absolutely! We were screaming at the scream "Kiss him! Kiss him!," but alas, no dice. I wonder if they filmed that and decided to cut it out.

Did anyone else want to punch cyclops whenever he was crying?

How do I get to join Magneto and Mystique's little club? They're such a fun bunch! Who wouldn't want to be in their clique?

Between the Lord of the Rings and the X-men, there have to be a billion and a half cultural studies majors writing these on the homosexual context of these films, and to their credit, Singer and Peter Jackson both seem well aware of it and play it up.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
14:31 / 12.05.03
Todd, do you mean subtext?

Because I guess you can look at it as context, seeing as that McKellan is gay and doesn't shy away from the subtext at all.
 
 
some guy
15:54 / 12.05.03
what the fuck do we know Stryker had actually done?

Aside from lobotomize his son, experiment on brainwashed subjects, and kidnap children? I'm sure there are a few more straws lying around if you want to grab them...
 
 
FinderWolf
15:54 / 12.05.03
1) I loved this movie.

2) I too thought Wolvie's hair looked slightly more bizarrely sculpted than in the first film.

3) Was Nightcrawler attracted to Mystique when they had the conversation about showing your true face to the world (which was very well done, by the way, given that in the comics Kurt often had to use an image inducer that projected a 'normal' face to walk around in the world)? Or was he just admiring and envying her courage and comfort level with her real appearance?

4) I'm going to see x2 again very, very, very soon.

Peace out~! Thanks for a very fun thread (I loved most of this thread, except for the personal attacks and sometimes vicious fighting that started somewhere around the middle; glad to see it calmed down and returned to spirited, civil, and on-topic debate/discussion)!
 
 
Ethan Hawke
16:16 / 12.05.03
I meant subtext. I'm just a blithering idiot today.
 
 
Sebastian
16:34 / 12.05.03
Aside from lobotomize his son, experiment on brainwashed subjects, and kidnap children? I'm sure there are a few more straws lying around if you want to grab them...

So, I suppose this is enough for LLBIMG to deliver a death penalty... also considering humanity had just been saved from a dumb bald man who was in the brink of wiping it out, then killing someone is decidedly heroic.

Its okay, I'm off with the ranting, you can go all live to the planet of the apes then. But then... I tell ya, in that planet, there is no department for filing complaints.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
18:46 / 12.05.03
I hate to do this, but I must: X-men 2 vs. Cremaster 1+2 vs. A Mighty Wind.
 
 
some guy
19:12 / 12.05.03
So, I suppose this is enough for LLBIMG to deliver a death penalty...

From Wolverine? Maybe if we're getting his moral compass from the children's cartoon rather than the films or comics...

also considering humanity had just been saved from a dumb bald man who was in the brink of wiping it out

Or instead of mindless vitriol you could actually present arguments based on the text. How is Xavier "dumb" in this film? And why omit the mind-control when discussing his actions re: humanity? Sure changes a lot...

in that planet, there is no department for filing complaints.

Complain all you want. But your bitching doesn't appear based on the film, as the constant corrections to your assumptions in the thread demonstrates. If you want to talk about the film, talk about the film. If you want to rant because Singer didn't make the X-Men film you fantasized about ... well, get over it.
 
 
El Gato Was Right: the t-shirt
02:26 / 13.05.03
Just read Singer's comments about doing sequels, and to me, whenever anyone in Hollywood says they're "not sure about something" it means that the money needs to be right.

I'm for putting the Morlocks in the next film as a way to splice in more Easter egg cameos. The x-men defending them, instead of defending their mansion, from the Sentinels. The Forge thing sounds good. Throw in Storm's battles with Callisto and you have acting fodder for Halle Berry (who I'm not particularly impressed with).

Certainly, the Phoenix storyline would be nice. But what it seems like people maybe forgetting (or not forgetting -- I skipped ahead a page, sue me) is that the Phoenix saga involves the Shi'Ar, aliens, space, etc. It'd be way too much of a departure. Plus, Mastermind was a crucial part of that storyline, and since "Jason" was supposed to be Mastermind, he's dead unless they bring him back in some convoluted way.

As for X$, oops X4 and X5, don't count on it. Blasphemy? Maybe. But name a franchise that made produced that many really watchable films. I can't think of a one. Hopefully everyone involved will know when it's time to quit.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
02:40 / 13.05.03
It seems pretty obvious that when they will adapt the Phoenix storyline to film, it will not involve the Shi'Ar or outer space. I think that the only element of the original story that really ought to be carried over should be the Hellfire Club.

I'm kinda puzzled that anyone would get the impression that the film series is in any way attempting to duplicate the stories from the comics. Elements of the stories from the two films are derived from comics stories, but certainly not lifted from pre-existing storylines. That's what makes the films so effective for broad audiences, and what makes it so fun for longtime fans. One of the fun things about X2 for me was seeing a brand new X-Men story that I'd never read before.
 
 
El Gato Was Right: the t-shirt
03:16 / 13.05.03
Looking over some plot summaries for the Phoenix Saga, the Shi'Ar portion seems like it can be cut. (And I'm all for cutting material from the comics and keeping the spirit of the original material, btw.)

In the comic, the X-Men beat the Hellfire Club and Phoenix lobotomizes Mastermind. She takes off for space, and later there's a bunch of stuff with the Shi-Ar, and later still a climactic battle with the X-Men where Xavier kills Phoenix. Just skip from the Hellfire defeat ahead to the fatal stand-off with the X-Men.

I still think the Morlocks and Sentinels can make it into this movie. There'd be a cool juxtaposition between the low life Morlocks and rich and powerful Hellfires.
 
 
passer
19:00 / 13.05.03
To get back to sme old questions:
On the gambit rumor:
http://www.efavata.com/CBM/Xmen2.htm

There were different rumors as to how the cameo was going to work. The first one I heard said that he was going to cameo in the bar when Mystique drugs the guard. According to the site above it was supposed to appear in the great mutant death montage in bar with exploding cards. It's just like playing telephone- so fun isn't it?

As for the "waste" of Deathstrike: the oh so reliable internet rumor mill has her signed on for x3. (http://www.x-men-movies.com/)Of course the same article titled "Lady Deathstrike's Kelly Hu Signed for X3" quotes her as saying "we'll have to wait and see."

My theory is the ala wolverine and the bullet to the head, she heals around the adamanatium and flees in the chaos. Or something. Maybe it's just my raging crush on Kelly Hu in leather clouding my judgment.
 
 
FinderWolf
18:54 / 14.05.03
That article (or another like it I saw) said that Hu was contracted for X3 but not sure whether the writers would use her character or not. They can certainly bring her back easily, the way Passer described or otherwise. And her character was brainwashed the whole time, so she could be good or evil when she's 'herself.'

As for the Gambit thing, I read somewhere that some stuntman on the site was 'cast' as Gambit for a 2-second cameo appearance, which I guess ended up on the cutting room floor?

He was saying that they needed someone to play Gambit in the background or something and he said that if they used the character for real in X3 that they'd almost certainly re-cast with a bigger, real actor (he's a stuntman, not really an actor, he said).

Then again, we all though Shawn Ashmore was a throw-away character as Bobby Drake in the first movie....
 
 
arcboi
19:12 / 14.05.03
MILD SPOILERAGE












I've just seen the film today and I loved it. So many great scenes and lines ("What's with the dorky looking helmet?") and Alan Cummings' Nightcrawler was excellent. Magneto's escape was ingenious and all the cameos were fun to spot.

And Wolverine gets to kill people. One of the better reasons for translating the comic to film.

Jean's death caught me by surprise and there was more than a few scenes where I was wondering How will they get out of that? - especially when Rogue gets sucked out of the plane. Don't you just hate it when you're on a plane and you get sucked off?

There's something wonderful in the whole understated performances throughout the film that I think sets the standard for comic-to-film transitions. Kudos to Bryan Singer. Perhaps now he can quit his day job making sewing machines....
 
 
FinderWolf
20:11 / 14.05.03
>> Don't you just hate it when you're on a plane and you get sucked off?

Depends what -- or who -- is sucking off you off on that plane, arcboi.

Ba-DUM-bump!!

Sorry, had to be done.
 
  

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