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X Men 2 (HUGE FUCKING SPOILERS)

 
  

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Mr Tricks
20:52 / 14.05.03
As for X$, oops X4 and X5, don't count on it. Blasphemy? Maybe. But name a franchise that made produced that many really watchable films. I can't think of a one.

Well I guess that's a question of what's "watchable"

The STAR TREK films did pretty well some better than others...

How about the Bond films?

There's a whole assortment of slasher flicks that continue to fill theaters...

well... maybe I'm making your arguement for you... however, just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it can't be done... and again it depends on many individual tastes...

Imagine what XX would be like!!!
 
 
Hieronymus
21:05 / 14.05.03
And I think the fact that the comics have so much in the way of macro and micro material for the characters means that several movies can be made without the franchise devolving into the atypical sequel rot that plagues a lot of other movies. Not saying it's not possible. But there's still quite a lot that can be done and done well here.
 
 
perceval
21:29 / 14.05.03

The space bird people aren't neccessary to do a Phoenix story. Morrison's doing one without them, after all. Just keep things simple.

I'm thinking that, since they were thinking in terms of a trilogy when they started this, that X3 will finish the story started in X1. The center of the first two movies is the conflict between Charles and Erik, so that'll be the center of X3, only with Jean, now very godlike, in the middle.

I'm wondering if the movies will keep Jean's comics origin as being found by Xavier as an autistic 9 year old. If so, and Jean is supposed to be the same age as the actress playing her, she's been with Charles for about 30 years, now. Erik would likely have still been working with him that long ago. If they recognized her full potential when they found her, there would have been a huge arguement over it. Erik would have considered it a crime against her to discourage her from achieving it, and a crime against evolution.

If Erik was as much an early mentor figure to her as Charles, it would also explain her different attitude towards Erik than the rest of the team. Scott, for example, sees his as The Enemy, period. Jean, in X2, dismissed the idea that he was behind the attack on the White House (and happened to be sitting on the opposite side of the chessboard from Charles in that scene), and trusted Erik to rescue Charles. The thought that their adversary could betray Charles under the circumstances never crossed her mind. It would also explain, in the first movie, why the hell she kept delaying Scott from zapping Erik in the first movie until the very last second when there were no other alternatives, hoping Logan could rescue Marie without hurting Erik.

The Hellfire Club could be used. No reason for Erik not to have other resources than JUST the Brotherhood.

E
 
 
Simplist
21:57 / 14.05.03
It seems pretty obvious that when they will adapt the Phoenix storyline to film, it will not involve the Shi'Ar or outer space. I think that the only element of the original story that really ought to be carried over should be the Hellfire Club.

It could plausibly be done without even the Hellfire Club. Jean returns, is a major asset to the team in her uber-powerfulness for the first hour, goes gradually overboard. Possibly she's corrupted by Magneto but ends up going much farther than even he would've wanted, or possibly she simply becomes righteously angry at humanity (possibly after witnessing Sentinel-perpetrated atrocities) and sets out to DESTROY THEM ALL! HAHAHAHAHAHA...*ahem*. Cut to final confrontation/death of Phoenix. I'd also expect the return of Phoenix-free Jean at the end, as having her die at the end of both X2 and X3 might strike the producers as redundant.
 
 
Mr Tricks
23:15 / 14.05.03
Along with all that X3 theorizing.. I still think the Hellfire Club would make for an interesting 3rd POV... Mutants that have now problem exploiting BOTH humans and Mutants equally with no pretences of saving anyone or revolutionizing society, as it serves them well enough as it is...
 
 
The Natural Way
09:16 / 15.05.03
Well, that was fun.

As for X$, oops X4 and X5, don't count on it. Blasphemy? Maybe. But name a franchise that made produced that many really watchable films. I can't think of a one.

Whilst I don't agree with Fly that this is the best sci-action movie ever, I think the franchise as a whole is going to prove to be pretty cool. the great thing about comic-book movies is that, in theory at least, they cry out for sequels ("When's the next ish?"), and can justify expanding into a few gazillion films (as I hope X-Men does). And, anyway, this one's getting great press, great audience response and, well, it IS better than the first film.

So, can we expect Blob, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver to make an appearance in the Brotherhood's future lineups?

On other matters: Magneto busting out of prison was fantastic. You can't make the tiniest mistake with him, can you?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:58 / 16.05.03
Because I tell ya, it would have been far more interesting to make Kurt actually have both murderous and religious convictions coexisting. Does this ring familiar? Touching something there maybe? Too complicated to conceive... or to fucking dangerous? Oh, yes, but its so easy to excuse the actions if drugs were involved, right? But you know very well, yes, you know how many people is there actually screaming inside for murder and looking right after the fucking excuse, the fucking drink, the fucking drug to then go curse someone, rape, kill, steal, and even the shitty sins like lying, fucking, something will have the perfect ingredient that smacks your brain and you go nuts without hope, you, poor weakling.

Giant Man wasn't on anything when he assaulted his wife, back there in Millar's Ultimates. Thats one of the points why the scene was so fucking shocking.


I may have been the only person to notice this, but movie Nightcrawler has been habitually self-mutilating for a long time and with great gusto. That does not necessarily strike me as the sign of a great big, perfectly well-adjusted puppy. In fact, even a cursory examination of his character shows that he has, not surprisingly, cripplingly low self-esteem and a fair few issues.

I'm curious as to the possibility that actually you can only use Mastermind's jizz to compel people along lines they are OK with on some level anyway. So, Nightcrawler expresses his suppressed rage about his freakish appearance by attacking the very symbol of human public achievement. Magneto is given permission by his mind control to betray Xavier and the mutants who, although consciously he wants to protect all mutants where possible, are *really* pissing him off by rejecting his message. Cyclops, confronted once again by his wife going all mushy-pants over somebody she has met for - what? - about two days, all told (how long did he stay, while conscious, in the mansion in the first film? Two days? The waking up day, then the stabbing Rogue night, then the chasing Rogue day, then the aftermath? Another five and people would be slipping in Jeanjuice...), is allowed to give in to his desire to give her hard look...

Just sayin'.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:27 / 16.05.03
I've been meaning to ask something about Kurt's 'etchings', but wasn't sure whether that should be here or in the Geeky X thread in Comics: did that ever appear in the comics?
 
 
FinderWolf
13:50 / 16.05.03
Kurt does not and never has had tattoos in the comics. But watch the shitty UNCANNY X-MEN suddenly have Kurt at the local tat parlor to make the comic more like the movie! *groan*

I thought the tattoos were a bit much - like the makeup team were like "Let's come up with even more complicated ornate shit so we can outdo ourselves like with Mystique!" I thought it was more the makeup team sort of jerking off/challenging themselves. His face just looks a little too "busy" to me -- and, like Chakotay on VOYAGER, the rationale given for the tattoos is sort of silly to me. (I've worked with many American Indians - i.e. hundreds - and none of them had ritual tattoos on their face; such a thing is VERY rare for Native Americans - white people have more regular tattoos than Indians have symbolic tattoos, and most non-Indian folk don't have them on their FACE!)

Anyway, sorry for the Chakotay tangent. The whole Christian mysticism/symbols for sins thing also doesn't really wash with me; I'm Catholic and I know quite a bit about Christian mysticism and I've never heard of this -- "the archangel Gabriel" "gave" these symbols to mankind?? Where did the writers come up with this? Or maybe such a concept is real and I've just never heard of it. Anyone?

Also, even with a prehensile tail , how would Kurt do ALL those tattoos on HIMSELF?? The whole masochistic nature of doing all that painful tattooing on your entire body (which has been brought up on this thread) also seemed a bit much for Kurt.

Random question - what the German composer Wagner's first name? Some people laughed out loud in the audience when Alan C. introduced himself as "Kurt Wagner" in the German accent and I wondered why. Could it be that Claremont took the name from the composer? Probably not, just curious. (I know Mahler's first name is Gustaf.)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:58 / 16.05.03
Richard. And "Gustav", I believe, with a "v".

I don't think they are tattoos, but rather scars. As for the "angelic script" - I guess they are talking about Enochian symbology. Which is another interesting thing. Movie Nightcrawler clearly has a highly idiosyncratic and possibly autodidactic approach to Christianity, whereas comic Nightcrawler is a comparatively straight Roman Catholic, IIRC.
 
 
Hieronymus
15:26 / 16.05.03
I thought the tattoos were a bit much - like the makeup team were like "Let's come up with even more complicated ornate shit so we can outdo ourselves like with Mystique!" I thought it was more the makeup team sort of jerking off/challenging themselves

As I understand it, it was an idea from the design department that they passed to Alan Cumming. He agreed, thinking it would be extremely cool (Christian tattoos have been around since time immemorial) but later regretted it since it required him to sit in the make-up chair an additional 5 or 7 hours on top of the 8 or so hours of his blue skin, teeth and ears.

Seemed to me that Kurt added them for every sin he committed, as a means of penance and rememberance. Personally I found them to be a beautiful touch. The fact they're Enochian symbols is just icing on the cake.
 
 
arcboi
16:06 / 16.05.03
I'd agree with that. I thought Nightcrawler looking fantastic - not an easy job when you're dealing with what must be one of the goofiest looking characters from the comic.

And that's what makes the X Men films so good - the fact that they've managed to translate the characters to film so successfully whilst stripping away the goofy elements.
 
 
Ganesh
17:16 / 16.05.03
Haus: I think I commented on Nightcrawler's self-scarification within a general observation on the film's SM overtones, particularly among the male characters (Wolverine stubs a cigar out on his palm, Iceman snogs Rogue knowing it'll drain his life essence, etc.)
 
 
Rev. Orr
21:20 / 16.05.03
Jean returns, is a major asset to the team in her uber-powerfulness for the first hour, goes gradually overboard. Possibly she's corrupted by Magneto but ends up going much farther than even he would've wanted, or possibly she simply becomes righteously angry at humanity (possibly after witnessing Sentinel-perpetrated atrocities) and sets out to DESTROY THEM ALL! HAHAHAHAHAHA...*ahem*. Cut to final confrontation/death of Phoenix

Right, she could go to a big cliff and pull a old church spire out of the ground with a blow-up doll tied to it. She starts blasting it with psychic energy but is stopped by Cyclops telling a dull story about their first day at the Xavier institute and a yellow crayon she broke. As he tells her he still loves her she falls, weeping, into his arms. Meanwhile, Wolverine and Rogue are still in a cavern fighting root-people. Haven't we seen this somewhere before?
 
 
Persephone
00:08 / 17.05.03
I'm curious as to the possibility that actually you can only use Mastermind's jizz to compel people along lines they are OK with on some level anyway. So, Nightcrawler expresses his suppressed rage about his freakish appearance by attacking the very symbol of human public achievement. Magneto is given permission by his mind control to betray Xavier and the mutants who, although consciously he wants to protect all mutants where possible, are *really* pissing him off by rejecting his message. Cyclops, confronted once again by his wife going all mushy-pants over somebody she has met for - what? - about two days, all told...is allowed to give in to his desire to give her hard look

Huh. Neat.
 
 
Pants Payroll
01:08 / 17.05.03
I got tired of Nightcrawlers constant praying. We get it! Religious! Looks like a demon, but is christian! O, the dichotomy! We dont need to be beaten over the head with it every 5 minutes. A quick Hail Mary before mowing the lawn. "I think I'll make a sandwich. Wheres that rosary?" We're not idiots. A little credit, please.
 
 
CameronStewart
14:53 / 17.05.03
>>>I thought the tattoos were a bit much - like the makeup team were like "Let's come up with even more complicated ornate shit so we can outdo ourselves like with Mystique!" I thought it was more the makeup team sort of jerking off/challenging themselves.<<<

It's not the makeup team trying to be clever - it's a practical decision based on what LOOKS GOOD ON FILM. There's a reason why they make the costumes all covered in seams and buckles and ribbing - for example, they did screen tests for the Spider-Man outfit and found that mere printed fabric looks like shit on film, so they added the raised webbing and slightly pebbled, "lizardskin" texture because it catches the light in more interesting ways. Same goes for the makeup on Nightcrawler and Mystique - just painting someone blue is going to look cheap and shitty and only look like someone wearing blue makeup, not actual skin. By adding a texture, like Mystique's scales or Nightcrawler's scars, it reacts with the light better and looks more convincing as skin.

They do TESTS for this stuff, you know, and lots of them. Why would any makeup team want to create 7 hours of extra work for themselves each day? They probably shot film of flat makeup, saw that it looked like shit, came up with the scarification idea, and then had it written into the script.
 
 
Jack Fear
15:38 / 17.05.03
pants: You mean you don't pray before making a sandwich...?
 
 
Pants Payroll
16:54 / 17.05.03
Eating sandwiches is against my religion.
 
 
Seth
18:57 / 17.05.03
pants, dude: I've been surrounded by Christians my whole life. Many of them really are like that.
 
 
Pants Payroll
00:10 / 18.05.03


Some of my best friends are christian (or fall under the judeo/christian umbrella; catholic, jehovahs witness, etc) and really have only heard them pray before meals, or at religious services. Of course, if I had been with them in a jet plummeting to the ground, or on the way to kick some super-vilian ass...

He's praying when prof X located him with cerebro. He's praying when Storm checks on him in the jet. He prays before teleporting with Storm. He prays when Jean dies. I'm not saying that any of these situations are innaprporiate times for prayer, I just think the screenwriters are content to let him be an archetype (or cliche, even) than a well rounded character. I started to feel patronized. "Dont forget, now, he's christian! Know how you can tell? He's praying!". I'm certainly not offended by prayer. I'm offended by lazy writing.
 
 
arcboi
00:25 / 18.05.03
Na, I think Nightcrawler's religious leanings came over as pretty convincing - and remarkably restrained when you consider that major loons like Ann Coulter are running loose in the world today. It would be a refreshing change to meet tolerant christians that have an engaging and thoughtful approach as Mr Wagner. Still as Robert Anton Wilson once remarked "Once dogma enters the brain..." etc.

I'd also agree with Cameron over the reasons for Nightcrawler having tats - I was never completely sold on his look on the strength of pre-publicity photos in which he did look like 'bloke with blue paint on'. In fact, I think he looks far more convincing than Mystique who looks like she's escaped from the Mardi Gras...
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
12:35 / 19.05.03
Pants- Give us a ballpark figure for how often a month your friends are kidnapped, brainwashed and sent to kill the most powerful man on the planet. Just so we can make a slightly fairer comparison?
 
 
Pants Payroll
00:06 / 20.05.03
As I said, Our Lady Of Guadalupe (Flowers Division)...

" Of course, if I had been with them in a jet plummeting to the ground, or on the way to kick some super-vilian ass..."

Implying that these would, of course, along with those you mentioned, be extreme situations with which I obviously have no experience. Not obvious enough, I guess.
 
 
sobel
17:56 / 22.05.03
This has been a great thread to read; A lot of really smart comments and I wanted to post my thoughts as I finally got round to seeing X-Men last night. I’d read through this thread before I saw X2; I’m not too bothered about spoiler really. Not a lot to spoil anyway; these films are always easy to read. Actually, a lot of the analysis here helped me to frame the film (despite being easy to read, with this and with the first one, I was often left wondering as to what the actual point IS with the x-men); I’m not particularly an x-fan, although I do love comics, the marvel ethos, and big in-yer-cheese special fx busters. Strangely, I think the film expressed to me most clearly why the x-men never appealed.
I didn’t much enjoy the film to be honest and I’ll explain why.

Firstly; they are a serious bunch despite the their clownish looks (or is that the point?)

Secondly; their powers are too rich and varied for the audience to really fear for their survival. (plus, they’re homo-superior, they’re more than one of them, and they make us look shit. Why should I like them?)

Thirdly: The franchise would be so much better as a tv series. Far too many people, not enough time to expand on nuances, details and characterisation. I’ve niggles about the handling of Pyro as others have too; I certainly don’t feel like a three year wait to find out what fun he’s having on the other side. 3 weeks yes. 3 years? In three years we’ll all be able to zap fireballs from our fingers. I believe the Ascended Onion already can.

And: the cigarette burn on the neck was a cheap way to balance the plot; it’s a kind of foolishness found only in comic books and is a device which Milligan kindly tears to shreds in The Pink Mink. This was (un)fortunately kept in check by the equivalent mutant trick ;which is to have any power under the sun to match the problem encountered. At no point did I feel the mutants were under the cosh; I’d ask for a sensible example from a fellow poster if there is one. This could be read as empowering; where there’s a will, there’s quite literally, a way; on film instead, it reads as dumb, nullifying narrative; the stuff of Spider Man and his Amazing Friends cartoons; a perfect tonic for depressed teens and hyperactive 8 year olds, but frankly not good enough to be considered at the front end of the new wave of all-inclusive entertainment, probably heralded by the Matrix.

The powers were poorly defined, as others have noted. I was unsure as to what the breaking point was for any of the leads. Xavier’s ability to ‘stop time’ simply another handy story-telling shortcut. I was actually gob-smacked at the amount of ‘cheating’ going on in order to roll the plot. So gob-smacked I had learned to accept and expect it by the time of Jean’s weird, pointless sacrifice.

At least this time, with the absence of Toad, and the good natured Nightcrawler’s presence, the set-up wasn’t; bad mutants – ugly; good mutants – beautiful; a glaring clangar in the PC heavy and wildly over-rated starter.

And if your gob still remains unsmacked, surely the fact that Cerebra could link to all human minds too (in order to make us all grind our teeth) knocked you square on the jaw!?

No? Then you’re a bigger fan than I.

I’d always thought x-men comic was less about the big action scenes and the tired tensions they bring than the internal messy soap opera with no definite end. So, while Singer had no option but to bend the film into an action movie rather than a 2 hour soap, any comparisons with Empire or even Wrath are redundant. I’d have to agree with the criticisms of these allusions. Spock’s death was far more iconic than Jean Grey’s (who?) sacrifice could be considered; and by the end of empire, the good guys had been hacked to pieces and sold off as sculpture. Both of those films saw the good guys take a serious beating throughout the film; I was genuinely concerned that Darth had won the day.

I’d have to say that X2 was completely devoid of such tensions and this ruined it as a story for me. That’s why I wish this franchise had gone down the buffy route, but I know that’s another debate.

I enjoyed this film in a limited way. The fx were stunning in parts (nightcrawler and magneto demonstrating their powers) and some pleasing choreography helped me get through it but Superman 2 remains my vote for greatest superhero film of all time.
 
 
arcboi
18:53 / 22.05.03
Interesting points. I'd disagree though about the danger our mutant chums were in. The first Nightcrawler sequence demonstrated how everything was stacked against them and the rest of the film detailed the struggle to get out of it.

I'd probably agree that Jean's sacrifice was somewhat rushed and poorly explained, but I still think it managed to deliver a fairly convincing blow. I doubt we'll see many scenes with Wolverine on the verge of blubbing like a small child.

I think the film also delivered some effective dramatic moments - Magneto's prision bust probably being top of the list and I was also genuinely surprised by how Rogue was rescued after falling out of the plane.

I think any 'superhero' comic is going to have a tough time being translated to film and there's plenty of failures - I found Spider-Man spectacularly underwhelming and I was never convinced by Batman or Superman either (Chris Reeve just didn't have the build or presence of the Man Of Steel for me).
 
 
Pants Payroll
03:29 / 23.05.03
I think we can all agree, to some extent , that "Jeans sacrifice" seemed awkwardly shoehorned into the movie. I personally couldnt lose myself in the moment or feel moved while busy thinking "Why the hell couldnt she do that from inside the jet?" and then "Oh, cool, theyre setting up the Phoenix resurection!". Which is really the point of the scene, isnt it? At least in the next movie she wont be the only one without a groovy code name. "Dr. Jean Grey" isnt much of a super-handle.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
18:36 / 03.06.03
I was avoiding this thread cuz I hadn't seen the movie, and now I'm sorry I missed all the fun. I thought a lot of the pros and cons hashed over herein were well-said, if flamey. I know everyone enjoys a nice shouting match, but why is it so hard to acknowledge that flaws in execution or moral do not necessarily ruin an a movie that is the most asskickingly good action flick maybe ever?

But anyway, at this point my only useful contribution is this:

The Once and Future King is about Arthur learning that might does not make right, and creating a military order that will race around the countryside defending the weak. What's interesting about both Magneto and Charles reading the book is that it's what they both see themselves as doing. I dunno where this Nazi stuff comes in.
 
 
Hieronymus
04:59 / 15.10.03
*bumpety bump*

So this fell to the cutting room floor of X2.



To me it looks like a lousy Transfomers you might get in a Happy Meal, circa 1987. Here's to hoping they do something on par with X-Men: Evolution's creepy Sentinels in X3. Lose the look of robot surprise in their little metal faces, I say.

And if anybody thoroughly enjoyed the movie, I highly recommend the Art of X2 book that's out. Some really cool concept designs (Sentinel sketches not included), such as the Danger Room layout.
 
 
Bear
07:03 / 15.10.03
Anyone know what's on the Ultimate Collectors Adition DVD it's on play but there are details. There must be a hell of a lot for the £79.99 price.
 
  

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