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Is Barbelith dying?

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We're The Great Old Ones Now

12:02 / 01.02.02

'Barbelith Apocalypse'?

Toffee.

Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?

12:05 / 01.02.02

Oh, well, good.

What do people think about this wipe idea? It would create a "fresh page", but the personalities would still be the same...it would have the singular advantage of returning everybody to Junior Member status, thus creating democracy of a sort, but would that really work? And is it worth the loss of all the data so far accumulated?

12:09 / 01.02.02

I think something which has got lost in the noise...is Kooky's suggestion that people are too intimidated to venture into sections of the board outside the Conversation. Which *is* a bit of a worrying assertion.– Haus

there's been so many new people joining and maybe they're not lurking – maybe they've logged on, read some of the threads and thought, "um maybe not think I'll leave"...might explain why most of the new people never talk? – Bear

I think a big question here is, how many "newbies" do we really have? I have a strong suspicion that all these hundreds of posters that we never hear from and worry so much about actually don't exist. As Bear mentions above, perhaps many of them have a look around the place, decide it's not for them and move on. So the 1500+ number at the top right corner is misleading.

I feel that Barbelith has become all talk and bluster and no revolution.– Solitaire Rose

...most obviously, there has been an influx of people who, for good or bad, don't give a toss about The Revolution, whatsoever that may be. –Haus

I will venture to add that "revolution" means different things to different people, and will be approached in diverse ways. That being said, and hopefully without descending into an "Ierne's so MEAN!" crapfest (because my intention is not to insult), I have to agree that there has been a strong turn towards the mundane and fluffy in recent months. There's definitely a segment here who are far more interested in getting to know people than changing the world. That's their preogative, eh?

Which leads me to a quote from my man Rothkoid:

I just feel like there needs to be a bit of tightening up in places. Or maybe a bit of serious-ifyin'. That's the thing that confounds me a bit here, I guess; it does seem sometimes like posters who're setting up beefy posts are out in the wilderness a little when it comes to people responding - purely because it's easier to post to a fourteen page "does your arse look big in this?" fluff thread than it is to hunker down to an involved topic.

Since it seems that any tightening done by moderators will result in cries of "Fascists!" and "Police State!", the onus lies on each individual poster to exercise care and thought when they post here, and make an effort to excise their own bullshit and pettiness.

12:11 / 01.02.02

This place goes over old ground enough as it is. Wipe the threads and in a month's time we'll just be talking about exactly the same things again, without having the opportunity to link to previous discussions.

Somebody pointed out a few weeks back that topics are getting started in this forum when they really belong elsewhere on the board, and suggested that it was being done on purpose simply because doing so would garner a far greater response than posting them to, say, the Revolution. I have to say that I agree.

The Conversation is eating the board from the top down.

[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: E. Randy Love You Long Time ]

12:14 / 01.02.02

You know what idea I sort of liked, that thingy you said at the beginning of the clique thread about wiping out a fictionsuit after, say, 1000 posts, and maybe a two-week enforced vacation. That's one thing that raised my eyebrow a little when I started here, this member number thing; I liked it a lot better when people's fictionsuits started blowing up & now it's a bit more randomized.

Kind of reminds me of that episode of Star Trek Next Generation, where David Ogden-Stiers is from that planet where everyone ritually commits suicide at age 65. Wouldn't it be kind of funny, if that became part of the culture here? Rituals might develop and everything.

12:18 / 01.02.02

Re: "board wiping"

I don't think it's a good idea. Having an archive of past topics in most forums is really good because newer posters can look them over and get not only information but also a sense of where fellow posters stand on various issues, which helps with future interactions. It cuts down on redundancy – a good example is the NLP thread over in Magick, where I linked to an archived thread in the Headshop so the peeps could acess that information.

Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?

12:19 / 01.02.02

Logun's Runces?

12:21 / 01.02.02

quote:Originally posted by He said he had a horrible Haus:
Logun's Runces?

LOL, yes.

12:34 / 01.02.02

I'd like to start off by saying that this thread (and the threads it's spawned, like Nick's REQUEST thread)has some of the more insightful comments I've seen on the board in quite a while. Very inspiring.

First up, the board used to go to hell and have to be wiped out on a fairly regular basis. It hasn't happened recently, but I'm not sure how much it helped even then.

This very topic has come up a few times (and, no, I'm not going to go off about cycles and the lack of original thoughts in the Undergorund). Everytime it does I get a little bounce in my step. The last time this happened was during the One Million Words project.

I don't think there is ever going to be an absolute purpose for every member of the board. I had no intention, despite my excitement for the project, to contribute to the essay collection, largely because I can't write. Same goes with the 'zine thing. However, I am involved in a few comics projects.

This isn't to suggest that everyone should be getting busy in a creative manner. Just to say that there are many oppurtunities for such projects if you have the time and inclination. And if you want to start something up, there are people of all sorts of skills on the board.

For me, the second phase of my initiation into Barbelithville is rearing up. The first was to broaden my mind and learn more about the world through different views. Not all of us come fully formed from the head of Zeus like some of the elders here on the board. It's been a long, hard, beautiful bit of learning and discovery for me, and I'd be wrong to say that phase one will ever be completely over. For me phase two is the application of those ideas, in different projects or in real life. From theory to reality. For some people, this application leads them away from the board. I'd like to try to keep one foot in.

[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: moriarty ]

12:54 / 01.02.02

quote:Originally posted by Persephone:
You know what idea I sort of liked, that thingy you said at the beginning of the clique thread about wiping out a fictionsuit after, say, 1000 posts, and maybe a two-week enforced vacation.

This actually reminds me of the Greek practice of ostracicism, which reminds me that someone should start the Iliad discussion thread since it's Feb. 1...

Regrettable Juvenilia

13:07 / 01.02.02

quote:Originally posted by moriarty:
For me, the second phase of my initiation into Barbelithville is rearing up. The first was to broaden my mind and learn more about the world through different views. Not all of us come fully formed from the head of Zeus like some of the elders here on the board. It's been a long, hard, beautiful bit of learning and discovery for me, and I'd be wrong to say that phase one will ever be completely over. For me phase two is the application of those ideas, in different projects or in real life. From theory to reality. For some people, this application leads them away from the board. I'd like to try to keep one foot in.

Wow. Almost word for word, that's all I'd like to say as well.

13:14 / 01.02.02

I haven't actually read all of this thread yet, but just thought I'd say that in the brief time i've been posting here I've found Barbelith very exciting. Not that I have experience of any other boards to compare it to. There is a lot of 'frippery' in Conversation (which is often PISS FUNNY), but I've been involved in plenty of interesting discussions, have generally found people knowledgeable and welcoming, and am really looking forward to hooking up with other barbeloids on the collaborative comics stuff moriarty ahs been setting up. Maybe things were better back in the day, but it looks pretty healthy to this newbie.

Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?

13:16 / 01.02.02

quote:Originally posted by Todd:

This actually reminds me of the Greek practice of ostracicism, which reminds me that someone should start the Iliad discussion thread since it's Feb. 1...

I don't want to do this, but I just sort of have to. It's "ostracism", and is Athenian rather than Greek.

13:23 / 01.02.02

pooh, I can't type.

And being a non-specialist, I somewhat naturally conflate classical Athenian civ. that of all of the classical Aegean civs.

That must be like someone scratching nails on the chalkboard for you, huh.

13:26 / 01.02.02

quote:Originally posted by He said he had a horrible Haus:

it would have the singular advantage of returning everybody to Junior Member status, thus creating democracy of a sort, but would that really work? And is it worth the loss of all the data so far accumulated?

Do you really believe this? You would have to wipe people's memories too. This thought links in to the clique-angst. If you know people in meat space you will have a stronger realtionship with them here too. If you have known people longer on the board you will also have a stronger relationship. So the 'elders' , whether they have 'junior' infront of their names or not will still have stronger bonds. That's life.

On the flip side, you are suffering from OAP/ thrity-something-clubber disease- it's never going to be as good as it used to be, i) because your memory distorts just how good it was, ii) encountering something new is a wonderful aphrodisiac iii) More posters equals more opinions, good and bad.

I think the trouble is a lot of people are perhaps not contributing enough to the cerebral parts of the board as Nick has highlighted. I for one mostly use the board as light relief while at work, hence I try and keep my posts in the conversation. I happen to like you guys for your acerbic wit probably more than your discussions on subjects such as magick, which holds only a passing interest to me as my sister is obsessed by it. The board is different things to different people. I will try and post more thoughtful things other areas, but I haven't really got time to think, just to release, and I am rarely on the board when outside of work.

I don't think it's dying it's just evolving. Let's hope it evolves in the right way, and if you don't like the crap, stay out of the conversation.

[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: Sauron ]

pointless and uncalled for

13:31 / 01.02.02

I'd just like to say that board wipe has never been my intention or desire.

I just felt that by introducing a more radical and extreme response might induce people to defend the status quo as holding potential etc.

Seems like I'm right.

Maybe a little thread locking and stuff might lead to a little less horn locking.

This is the fifth/sixth board that I've been a part of and routinely, just after Christmas, this kind of thing comes up. I'm not claiming SAD or anything but it does seem a little seasonal. In a time when people are more likely to expend more time in a situation like this then a bit of purple fever is not unexpected.

There is the suggestion of a forced, post 1000 post sabatical. Technically this is unfeasable. But we could mimic another group of debaters I hear governments take breaks every now and again.

I think that posters would be hard pressed to self-impose a one month break from this place. If people feel that the tensions have run to high in this place we could introduce a 2/4 week suspension of board activities once a year.

It's just a practical suggestion for consideration.

13:33 / 01.02.02

On the subject of member status - why bother at all? The same goes with displaying the number of posts a barbeloid has made. What does it achieve other than creating a badge of seniority or otherwise? Couldn't that side of it be scrapped, which would certainly cut down on intimidation of newbies (if, in fact, they exist in the numbers we presume, as others have said)? Then everyone's posts could be taken on merit.

13:38 / 01.02.02

I think the reason the Head Shop in particular is dying/intimidating to new members is:

(a) After so long for a board to be in existance, the "elder" members of the Head Shop have been through many, many topics, at least at a survey-type level.

(b) consequently, when a new member brings up something s/he finds interesting and maybe even "revolutionary" to talk about, the "elder" Head Shop, er, heads, tend to sigh and say "Oh we covered this ages ago" or not reply at all to such a "survey" thread. Or, they tend to immediately proceed to recherche aspects of the topic that may not have been covered.

(c) Also, the existance of a Head Shop "elder" clique leads to threads like "Trans Education 101", which, with whatever intentions it was started, is NOT 101 level stuff. It has devolved, in my mind, to a list of authors, and then to an argument over which of these authors are cooler, with out any attempt to explain what makes these authors so cool so that the layperson can understand/engage.

This is not to denigrate any "Theory Bitches" on the board. I personally find Theory fascinating, but I'm approaching it like many from outside the academy, in conjunction with many other modes of inquiry,so I tend to get defensive if I perceive myself to be bludgeoned with an "appeal to authority" type argument.

So, i think it's not the problem of the newer members of the board to contribute; rather the elders of the head shop should consciously avoid being so clapped-out and specialist.

13:41 / 01.02.02

consequently, when a new member brings up something s/he finds interesting and maybe even "revolutionary" to talk about, the "elder" Head Shop, er, heads, tend to sigh and say "Oh we covered this ages ago" or not reply at all to such a "survey" thread. Or, they tend to immediately proceed to recherche aspects of the topic that may not have been covered.– Todd

Another vote for thread archiving, then?

13:42 / 01.02.02

That's a very good post. Perhaps the learning is, if the grounds been covered, keep out of the thread for the benefit of those who want to cover it again.

Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?

13:48 / 01.02.02

Wisdom - so you are proposing more moderation? Locking of threads where people seem to be getting snarky? Not sure how that would sell....

Todd - Problem there being - well, what can the theory bitches do? Are they doomed to operating a split-level system where they have recondite convos amongst themselves on whether Earl Hebner should have disqualified Guattari for clocking Deleuze with the championship belt on one hand, and train the youth team at the same time? And, actually, I'd suggest that threads which *are* collections of resources, like some of Trans Ed. or the latest "Butler is so 1992" thread, are of great interest to.,...well, the interested, which need not necessarily be exclusive. If you have an interest in participating in the Head Shop but no desire to read anything related to it, then it is probably not the thread for you. But there are many other threads which are not reference-heavy, like "Genderfuck you", or the current "Aristania" - neither of them using a single reference until pretty late in the thread, I believe, or at all in Aristania's case - all the info is on the Interwebnet.

Soo....I think sometimes the "intimidated thing" means "I am afraid that people will disagree with my opinion, and back up their disagreement in a way I cannot refute", and without actually shutting the Head Shop down I don't think there is a way to get around that possibility.

pointless and uncalled for

13:57 / 01.02.02

Not really more moderation but simply closing old threads. Locking a snarky thread would just lead to either a) the snarkiness going to another thread or b) a brand new snarky thread coming to life simply for the purpose of being snarky.

Just suggestions for consideration. As you express, this is a bad idea and be assured that your opinions will be taken on board should any decisions/action actually be made. Far more so than mine I would imagine.

I still maintain my idea of a pan-board sabatical. 2/4 weeks of no posting, no reading, no suit tailoring, nothing.

I think this has the potetial for benefits.

Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?

14:01 / 01.02.02

I think you may be right. Just shut the board down for a month....could be fun. email everyone and tell them when it is up again.

Altohugh it wouldn't be very good for attracting those newbies...

14:07 / 01.02.02

Past experience suggests that shutting down for a while would only increase the noise levels once the board comes back online; each time we've had a crash, the reboot has seen all forums fill with nonsense for a while simply because everyone feels the need to post something, even if they haven't got anything worth posting about.

Matthew Fluxington

14:08 / 01.02.02

I'm not sure why people can't just make do with how things are here... I agree with Haus, for the most part. I think that if people are going to feel intimidated in conversations in which they may be out of their depth, they should either just read up, ignore the thread, or participate in a capacity not unlike being a student in a classroom...

Anyway, I think closing/rebooting the board wouldn't do much of any good. Things are fine enough. Threads can be ignored. If you don't think the place is 'revolutionary' enough for you, then start yr own fucking board which is. Do you know how easy it is to start message boards? Do you know how hard it is to attract a good audience for them? Do you know how few of them cover as wide a range of topics as Barbelith does, and also manage to be well-behaved?

[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: Flux = Sleeps w/ Electric Guitars ]

14:09 / 01.02.02

I wasn't suggesting that the more recondite conversations aren't interesting to a lot of posters. However, I suggest that they should probably be the exception rather than the rule.

And I think, if Theory really is the transformative force the "Theory People" think it is, they should indeed train the farm club.

(oh, and the JB is so 1992 thread is really the one I was thinking about, not the Trans Education)

14:11 / 01.02.02

It doesn't really seem fair to shut down the entire board for a month when the main issues are with a couple of forums (ie Conversation and Head Shop).

I could see cutting out the Conversation forum for a month...

The Return Of Rothkoid

14:11 / 01.02.02

quote:Originally posted by Ierne:
[b]Since it seems that any tightening done by moderators will result in cries of "Fascists!" and "Police State!", the onus lies on each individual poster to exercise care and thought when they post here, and make an effort to excise their own bullshit and pettiness.Which would solve pretty much all the problems currently floating around here. How about we all step back and do so, eh?

(Sorry it's such a lame addition, mine, but I wanted to post something other than my RL reaction to Ierne's point, which was a small whooping noise, followed by a lugubrious "yeeeeah!".)

pointless and uncalled for

14:13 / 01.02.02

Yeah seriously.

There is a lot of talk about learning stuff and put it into action. You have a whole year to learn stuff, a month of putting into action and seeing how well theory meets reality should be good for anyone.

Regrettable Juvenilia

14:17 / 01.02.02

The funny thing is, no-one ever suggests that the Comics forum is intimidating to people who know nothing about comics, or that the Music forum is impenetrable etc etc. Are they?

Oh, and WoI, as far as closing threads when they degenerate, as a Moderator of the Conversation I've been tempted to do this many, many times, but have only done so once, in a pretty exceptional case. If I gave in to my urges, there'd be a ridiculous stink - I'd be accused of censorship, taking sides, being a bit like Hitler, etc...

Honestly, I'm with Flux - I've been here for ages and even since I was only lurking, there have been people saying the board has passed its prime... but it hasn't. There's a few people I miss (YNH and betty must not be Allowed to leave ever again...), but then, every time I think there's nothing new I can learn from Barbelith, or there won't be a new poster for me to be in awe of, someone proves me wrong.

The only thing that bugs me (apart from Knodge the Misog) is the routine navel-gazing. "I think we spend too much time talking about ourselves, and I'm going to start a thread to discuss it."

P.S. I also think closing the site for a month is utterly ridiculous, and would achieve nothing.

[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: Flyboy ]

14:24 / 01.02.02

I agree Fly. Actually you've hit the nail on the head re: some threads being more imtimidating than others to grossly paraphrase Morissey (sort of). By definition, the Headshop and Switchboard are going to be more intimidating. Intellectual superiority and knowledge superiority invarably lead to bullying- knowledge (not you knodger, the entity), is power. Intellectual heavyweights are often bullied in other facets of their life so their super human brains give them a chance for revenge (this is a general point, not aimed at anyone here).

If a David Beckham tried to talk to Paxman about International Relations he's get ripped to shit; again that's life.

I still think though that you can take on a tone of enlightening rather than preaching or chiding, to lighten the fear factor- if one actually exists.

[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: Sauron ]

pointless and uncalled for

14:25 / 01.02.02

Flyboy, I never said close threads when they degenerate. In fact as I stated in an earlier post, I am against that.

As for the board closure, I'll bet a wad of cash that you might well be suprised.

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

14:29 / 01.02.02

i think its all gone to hell since kali left

wheres the "Sex-Toys"?
wheres "writers block"?
whatever happened to baby jane?

thread rot was not always bad, we never had people snarking at each other and no quasi psychics ever had be talking about nuking a populace out of existence (and if anyone has no idea what im saying i apologize, im not trying to exclude "newbies")

i think we expanded to fast and need to rubberband snap back into a more focused force

of course i have no ideas on how to acomplish this, but isnt that just appropriate here?

Regrettable Juvenilia

14:35 / 01.02.02

Okay, sorry, thought that's what you meant by:

quote:Maybe a little thread locking and stuff might lead to a little less horn locking.

One of the main problems I have with the idea of closing the board for a month is the idea that people would use that time to "put into action stuff you've learnt on Barbelith". Firstly because it assumes that no-one is, and I know for a fact that this isn't true. Secondly because I think you're making a very simplistic distinction between theory and action (and puts Barbelith firmly in the former camp). Thirdly because the idea of 'a month of action' in a year strikes me as quite an unhealthy way to approach activism or creative endeavours (I assume that's what you're talking about) - the ideal goal surely is to be able to sustain these things on a day-to-day basis. And finally because I just don't think anyone would take more positive action without the board - for example, I post mostly from work, and if Barbelith wasn't there, I'm sure I'd find far less constructive ways to spend my time.

Elijah: don't know how serious you are, but there's essentially a new 'writer's bloc' thread in the Creation now, running a sentence at a time. As for 'Sex, Toys' - I think that's a very good example of the fact that everybody's ideal thread will be very, very different to the next person's.

[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: Flyboy ]

Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?

14:36 / 01.02.02

quote:Originally posted by Sauron:
I agree Fly. Actually you've hit the nail on the head re: some threads being more imtimidating than others to grossly paraphrase Morissey (sort of). By definition, the Headshop and Switchboard are going to be more intimidating.

Now that's just silly. One, because bullying about knowledge of comics or music *never* happens. Two, because the "Intellectual Heavyweights" on the Head Shop - Crunchy, Rosa, Bluestocking, Deva, YNH - don't seem to be all that "victim of bullying working out their frustrations in other areas if their life"-ish.

I woudl contend rather that, while one cannot discuss The Strokes without some knowledge of the Strokes, or the Dark Knight Returns without some knowledge of the Dark Knight Returns (well, except in Knodgetastically unusual cases), pretty well anyone can join a thread in the Head Shop if it is not highly specialised. As a result, it often swings between being an extension of the conversation and the theory bitches (very vague group) getting annoyed by it being treated as an extension of the Conversation.

But that's just my little suspicion
.

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