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Is Barbelith dying?

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18:55 / 11.12.06

(That's the problem with being a bastard all the time, by the way; the one time you try to be a stand-up guy, nobody believes you're sincere. Take warning by me, young people, and forsake your bastardly ways!)

Our Lady Has Left the Building

15:41 / 08.01.07

Is anyone else noticing moderation requests taking a long while to get processed in this wintery season? I posted something in the Battlestar Galactica thread this morning, around 8:00 am, thought afterwards that it was achieving nothing but more noise than signal so asked for it to be deleted, someone turned it down (and whoever did, could you PM me as to why please?) and I resubmitted it this afternoon, probably somewhere between 2:00 and 3:00. It has not been actioned or turned down, three hours later.

Are the other mods on holiday?

15:58 / 08.01.07

I really don't think three hours is all that long.

16:00 / 08.01.07

And it only seems to be two hours anyway, if that's the same action that I've just agreed.

ONLY NICE THINGS

21:45 / 08.01.07

I think I agreed the second proposal earlier today. No idea what happened with the first.

Meanwhile, FOOD FIGHT IN AISLE THREE!

Our Lady Has Left the Building

07:50 / 09.01.07

Was it only two hours? Thanks E. Randy, I thought it was longer.

01:27 / 22.03.07

Barbelith does seem to be a somewhat ill beast now, what with all the recent departures. And the ones that are yet to come, I suppose. Now it's fashionable.

But really, it seems only germane to ask seasoned posters who find the whole thing a bit hopeless these days to just quietly exit, rather than hanging about like darque wizards at the end of a wedding party, complaining about the service, predicting the ugly conclusion.

*

02:30 / 22.03.07

One might also suggest that those who have dropped a relatively good-humored farewell and departed are somewhat less to blame for continuing drama than another who goes about continuing to take potshots at that person when ze is no longer about to make retort, but one wouldn't want to disturb you at indulging your last remaining pleasure, Gran.

03:08 / 22.03.07

Mm.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

05:12 / 22.03.07

Yep. Cheap shot, dude. Not impressed.

08:20 / 22.03.07

Fair enough, fair enough ...

As of this morning, there is a sign above the desk that reads 'If in doubt, at all, DON'T press Post Reply ... Take it to Millarworld, or somewhere. Take it to Stormfront. Take it to ByrneRobotics'

I would say I don't know what gets into me sometimes, but to be honest, it's a list of meds as long as a man's arm.

17:10 / 22.03.07

So... what? We agree that the place is in dire need of a shake-up, but we just accept that this isn't going to happen, not that it coudln't, and just shut up about it?

Fuck that.

18:47 / 22.03.07

I think there is a disagreement about the need for a shakeup.

I'm not worried about the lost glory days of yore 'cause I wasn't here for them. I do know the board is a productive great place now for me and the people I exchange most with. There are phases when my favorite forum goes quiet but I assume and have witnessed that is part of a cycle. People have other shit happening.

When badness sparks up it gets dealt with, new folks are rolling in, new voices adding to the cocktail chatter and busting out with tasty new delights.

We all get tired of social interaction sometimes and we all evolve in different directions. I'm not seeing anything that looks like a crisis, if you do can you detail it for me?

20:01 / 22.03.07

I'm not seeing anything that looks like a crisis

I've been posting to Barbelith for nearly two years now, and lurking for far longer and I agree with XK that the current situation isn't remotely crisis-like.

I mostly engage with Barbelith in the spectacle sections, and these seem to have retained the quality and standard that have been present since I started reading around mid-2004. It's possible that the quality was incredible before that point, but it has been fairly even since then.
Barbelith is doubtlessly one of the best places to discuss and read about films, TV and comics on the web and while the volume of posts is certainly lower than when I first started reading, the quality is much the same.

I don't engage as frequently with the more "serious" sections of the board in the revolution, so I can't say whether or not the standard has differed since the glory days that I was apparently absent for.

A while ago, Tom posted monthly stats for the number people visiting various sections of the board and where they posted to, etc. I'd be interested in seeing an updated version of those numbers..

20:06 / 22.03.07

I don't think I used the word 'crisis', did I? And I've not said anything about how it was better in the day.

20:31 / 22.03.07

Sorry, that sounds sharp and it wasn't meant to. I just don't like seeing people conflating the very real need for functional change on Barbelith with the belief that it was ever any kind of online utopia, because that's not where I'm coming from. It's been many things over the years, but it's never been that. What it is right now, though, is not fit for purpose.

Tryphena Absent

11:18 / 23.03.07

So... what? We agree that the place is in dire need of a shake-up, but we just accept that this isn't going to happen, not that it coudln't, and just shut up about it?

Well what's the solution? Keep on talking about it for the rest of eternity? Some of us have been engaged with this problem for over a year, are we just meant to keep pointing it out again and again?

13:17 / 23.03.07

What it is right now, though, is not fit for purpose.

Some of us have been engaged with this problem for over a year, are we just meant to keep pointing it out again and again?

Not to be incredibly dense but could you folks define the problem(s) as you see them?

Are we talking about the slow ban process, the slow admissions process (which I believe has been speed up quite a bit, no?), or something I can't at the moment seem to recall?

The ban and admissions processes have their own threads so I don't believe we need to get into any great detail here except to say if that's what you are refering to as 'the problem(s)'.

Please be specific if you can.

14:47 / 23.03.07

In a word yes, both of those being laborious processes wear people out, moderators plus other board users. Plus the fact that Tom is simply unwilling to allow mod's to have more access to the levers of power on the Lith.

Plus there is the matter of promises of change to the above and other stuff not being kept.

Look if you want a good summary thats in detail, look a Ganesh's thoughts on LJ, it's got quite a lot of detail.

14:51 / 23.03.07

The main problem as I see it, xk, isn't to do with any great crisis in the membership, rather that many of us would like a board that can respond effectively to its own needs, in particular membership issues, in a timely manner, and where the power to respond to said needs isn't held by one individual, particularly an individual whose engagement with the board is lessening as time goes on.

The way I see it we can't throw open the doors to new blood until we get this stuff solved, and new blood is what any site needs over the long term.

14:55 / 23.03.07

I'd actually quite like to jump ship at this point and strike up a new community, but I'd only be willing to do that if

a. Someone else with the time, expertise and inclination did the heavy lifting

b. Lots of folk here came along for the ride

I'd even be happy to chip in some cash. Oh, and I have a name in mind - how about "The Other Place"?

Pretty good, eh? I know, I know I am the genyouish.

15:21 / 23.03.07

Lemme see if I can express this clearly, I beg your indulgence if it sounds choppy.

In my thinking the board is slow food some forums more so than others naturally, but in general the order of the day is thoughtful expression of facts and opinions.

On other boards where there is open membership and let's say faster mod ban powers what mechanism offers both quality control of posts and promotes evolution/negotiation for ones not quite up to par?

Does faster banning (and I said I didn't want to get into it here but here I go, sorry) mean higher offensive body count booted to balance out higher potential body count in the door? Does distributed ban power on this board mean shorter banning discussions? I'm tempted to say in the slow food culture it won't and the banning/freezing threads would be much like they are now.

So to me the focus is peeling back the red herring of ban/admissions and looking at the culture of the board. It's a small group of active posters with a trickle of acclimated new folks talking about facts and opinions. Not a huge amount of drive by one off posts and uninvested off topic blathering scattered everywhere.

I'm not saying it has to be like this, I'm saying that's what it looks like to me right now. Let's put aside mechanisms for the moment.
Can you describe how you would like the board's culture to be different?
(also I'm interested to hear how it looks to you right now too)

15:42 / 23.03.07

Also I think it is interesting that the first post in this thread is from '02.
Maybe the health of the board is just a favorite mythological topic to prod?

ONLY NICE THINGS

15:53 / 23.03.07

Sorry, XK, but I really don't think it is realistic to say "leaving aside the mechanisms". The mechanisms cannot be left aside.

In short:

1) The admissions system may not be worrying to you, but it relies a) on constant labour, at the moment on the part of myself and Tom, to keep people coming in - that is, people have to keep working all the time to make it work and b) on people being prepared to jump through hoops to get in, which encourages a particular kind of applicant, I think, of which see more later. This system also has security holes, which I do not think should be discussed on the open board.

2) The banning system depends at present on Tom taking the waters of long and often acrimonious debates whenever he has the time, and then deciding to ban or not ban. It is inconsistent, dependent on personal fiat and largely without meaningful accountability. This has already played a key role in making some people leave Barbelith - apart from the people whose banning is being discussed, that is.

3) For whatever reason, but most likely the name of the board and the effect of Google, the majority of applicants want to talk about The Invisibles and Chaos Magic - by extension, comic books and magic. As a result Comic Books and the Temple are quite busy - compare the Head Shop and the Switchboard, the historical heart of Barbelith. Once a couple of emails have to be exchanged and a wait endured, the group of people who actually join Barbelith is, I think, quite self-selecting, to the detriment of the wider quality of the board.

There is very little point in talking about the kind of culture we want on the board when the proper mechanisms for running it as a board do not exist. At best, assuming it is not updated, this current incarnation is now a holding position until a convincing alternative, with Tom's blessing, possibly hosted on Tom's server space and so on, comes into being, or it is shut down, or it becomes a dedicated Comic Books and Chaos Magic board. We can make requests on the space during that time - more politeness, less misogyny, less democracy in banning discussions - but that's about it and, since we have a long wait ahead of us, it would be well if we did, but that's not about board culture as much as board management.

16:47 / 23.03.07

Well what's the solution? Keep on talking about it for the rest of eternity? Some of us have been engaged with this problem for over a year, are we just meant to keep pointing it out again and again?

I'm well aware of that, mainly because I'm one of those people. The only viable solution that I can see is that we decide what it is that works here and what it is that doesn't - which we've been doing in a roundabout way for half a bloody decade, but never in a formal, itemised way - then we either push for the creation of an alternate Barbelith based on the software currently in use, but with development people in place who have the time and will to effect the changes the community decides are necessary (if, indeed, there are any suitable people left in the active membership) or else those of us who are fed up with it now shift our arses to move elsewhere and start afresh. I do believe there are enough people to make the latter a realistic proposal - and you don't need an enormous number of people to form a working, worthwhile community membership - but the will may, again, be the stumbling block.

ONLY NICE THINGS

16:50 / 23.03.07

Well, there's a huge amount of inertia. I think the next project might be to work out who is interested in starting a new board and, rather than having five or six started piecemenal, get them to work together. I'd like to involve Tom in this as well - no matter what the problems with the current board technology are, Barbelith owes its existence basically to him, and I'd like to see that honoured in any new board. Also, he already has servers up and running, and Paypal money coming in, which practical considerations might be worth looking at.

17:35 / 23.03.07

Who wants to start the Childe Of Barbelith thread then?

18:13 / 23.03.07

It is inconsistent, dependent on personal fiat and largely without meaningful accountability.

As opposed to...? I'm unaware of internet communities which vote people off, but that's about the only exception I'm conceiving at short notice and I'm sure there are some. Otherwise, you describe most cybervillage boot-policies to a tee.

18:19 / 23.03.07

Sorry, XK, but I really don't think it is realistic to say "leaving aside the mechanisms". The mechanisms cannot be left aside.

that's true if you are examing what you percieve is wrong with the place but I'm also asking about ideal versions of the community.

Can you describe what kind of a community and interaction you want? I'm hesitant to read too much into your lengthy post above and would prefer to allow you to frame it from scratch rather than just as HS/SB vs. C/T foot traffic.

ONLY NICE THINGS

23:40 / 23.03.07

Well, an ideal version of the community, in the first instance, is one in which the technology regulating the community works. After that, we can see how it evolves, but I don't see a lot of profit in imagining utopian scenarios unless, as Quantum says, we are starting a new thread about replacements. The slow food idea is possible, but it is not how we are currently arranged; if one were serious about it, though, one would probably need to censure and/or prune out people who are either unwilling or unable to contribute to something resembling the desired standard of discussion and might discourage others from doing so.

Falke:

I'm unaware of internet communities which vote people off, but that's about the only exception I'm conceiving at short notice and I'm sure there are some. Otherwise, you describe most cybervillage boot-policies to a tee.

I describe a situation which has similarities to other situations. However, most bulletin boards in which banning is the preserve of a single person are set up with that person actively engaging with and central to the life of the board. Those in which a number of people have this power do not, conversely, operate by personal fiat but rather by group consensus, since the power to unban is often also shared. On boards where those who do the banning regularly interact with the board, they are at least socially and sometimes structurally accountable for their actions.

So, no. I do not, I think, describe to a tee situations other than the one we have here. However, you may wish to draw useful comparisons with other boards, where your experience may prove valuable.

11:56 / 24.03.07

XK we're not a 'slow food' community through choice, for the first half of Barbelith's life it was open to anyone who wanted to join. Then because there was no technical way to block certain trolls successfully memberships were shut down. Memberships were only opened up via the tortuous process we have at the moment because the software couldn't be changed to work the way we would like.

This all wasn't by the choice of the community, likewise with the banning power, Tom doesn't want moderators to have the power to ban people, ergo the 2 week long threads on banning someone until Tom makes a choice one way or the other. Boards with benevolent dictators only work when the dictator is engaged with the board.

Barbelith doesn't have any choice in these matters and simply put we'd like to control our own destiny.

Jake, Colossus of Clout

00:51 / 25.03.07

Everyone seems to focus on the mechanics of banning and Tom's involvement (or lack thereof) in the day-to-day running of the board, but what has been pissing me off about Barbelith for quite awhile now is something else Ganesh mentioned in his LJ, which is that this place has become downright mean-spirited and combative. I agree with him wholeheartedly, and it has led to me barely posting at all recently.

I was never a particularly "high profile" poster or whatever, but I find that being on Barbelith puts me in a shitty mood these days, and I would be surprised if I was alone. I'm not going to post examples, because I'm not interested in pointing fingers, and it really isn't the point. I've only been around since late 2003, so I wasn't here "back in the days," but I don't think it's my imagination that the board has become much less light-hearted since then. I'm just wondering if other people agree. I could give a fuck about banning mechanisms or what-have-you, it just bothers me that being here puts my back up these days. I always worry that someone is going to have a go with me because I posted something that could be construed as offensive if you squint and look at it sideways. I think people look for that kind of shit now, just to start fights, and I don't have the patience for it, myself. I see posters who have been around forever, and whom I used to respect enormously, pissing and moaning all the time and it seems like they were totally different people even two years ago.

I'd be curious to hear other people's thoughts on this, because, at this point, Barbelith just pisses me off, and I've almost locked myself out of my suit several times lately, just because I'm sick of the general attitude here. Should I? Is it just me, and the board is really the same as always?

ONLY NICE THINGS

01:38 / 25.03.07

I always worry that someone is going to have a go with me because I posted something that could be construed as offensive if you squint and look at it sideways.

Fear is a terrible thing. However, a thing that scares you is not necessarily a scary thing. I'm terrified of guinea pigs, myself.

Jake, Colossus of Clout

01:43 / 25.03.07

Mm. However, my point was not that it was scary, but that it's tiresome and irritating, and really not worth the time. Basically, that people could stand to be a little less willfully confrontational.

ONLY NICE THINGS

02:07 / 25.03.07

Well, "willfully" is a pretty difficult term, for starters. If we look at a fairly recent example, we had buttergun saying that protests at consistently referring to a character on Lost as a "Latina bitch" was not really on as evincing an unacceptable level of "tree-hugging". He was supported in this belief by Sensitive, who went for "Latina cunt" - just to really show those PC termagants. Everybody has their own ideas about what is acceptable behaviour, and those ideas, oddly enough, tend to define what they see as nit-picking, tree-hugging or fight-seeking.

This is where not giving a fuck about banning mechanisms hurts your ability to interact with a lot of the discussion that I think we're likely to have here, because it's fiddly technical stuff like that which affects, among other things, people's attitude to and tolerance for the sort of things that you feel they are looking out for, and also the ways they deal with it. Historically, it has also been this stuff that has led to some very heated discussion, and quite possibly has contributed to a shortness of temper and a lack of patience which, if it were in one's interests, one might see as motiveless pissing and moaning.

If one fixes the root, one fixes a lot of the expressions off behaviour in response to the situations created by that root. If the root is not fixed or fixable, it leads to frustration. This particular thread probably helps to focus and express that frustration, as does the apparent impossibility of making changes to the board. Discussions are going on elsewhere about what to do with those facts, which may ultimately help to deal with those frustrations, possibly by removing one set of people or another from this board.

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