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Is Barbelith dying?

 
  

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Sax
18:39 / 31.01.02
I just wondered. What, with all of the constant backbiting and arguing over trivialities that goes on in the Conversation and Gathering, and with whole threads devoted to personal attacks on Barbeloids, and with little talk of "revolution" round these parts any more.

Barbelith has even got to the point where veteran posters talk of "the good old days" (and I have been guilty of this myself). There are endless arguments about cliques. The Conversation is by far the busiest section, much of it given over to fripperies. And that isn't a criticism; it's where I spend most of my Barbelith Hours these days.

I remember not too long ago (there I go already), Tom posting calls for a "Barbelith Manifesto" (it might even have been a "Nexus Manifesto"), seriously asking us what we wanted from this board, where it was going, what it was going to do.

Is what Barbelith is now what Tom envisaged it would be? Possibly it is. For a site that began as a discussion group for comics, it now has 1,400-odd registered members and not really that much talk about comics as such.

The Laboratory, Switchboard and Head Shop still make for fascinating reading. But more and more the board is given over to sniping, rows and semantics.

Perhaps change and evolution was always Tom's agenda. If not, how long is he going to keep footing the bill for this place?

This isn't, God forbid, another "let's be nice" thread. Just a serious question: Is Barbelith dying? Is what Barbelith/The Nexust started out as dying? Or has it just become something else entirely.

For my money, I'd say it probably is dying, although I can't see it going away. Putting my old fart hat on, I'd say there was a time when there was wonder on the board, when honest debate raged without the slap-downs and the sulks. When new people weren't scared to post and old ones didn't know everything about everything.

I don't know, to be truthful. Just wondering. Now I'm off to start a thread about cheese or something. I'd appreciate views, though.
 
 
uncle retrospective
18:48 / 31.01.02
As some one who seemed to have started this round of chest beating I have come to the conclusion that there is nothing going on that doesn't happen every now and again.
Some time life can get sucky.
Get a helmet.

[ 31-01-2002: Message edited by: uncle retrospective ]
 
 
Bear
18:51 / 31.01.02
I don't think its dying at all, I love the place... and I think everyone else does aswell why else would they keep coming back, seriously if the place was so bad nobody would come on and then the place would then be dying but actually

now I'm thinking about maybe the place is dying slowly...think about it there's been so many new people joining and maybe their not lurking maybe they've logged on had a read some of the threads and thought um maybe not think i'll leave...might explain why most of the new people never talk?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:55 / 31.01.02
Wouldn't say dying, exactly, but I think we're going through a slump. Not getting as much oomph, y'know?

Partly, yeah, it's all the back-biting. I know, I know- mea culpa as much as anyone, possibly even culpa-er, but it's hard not to get steamed up when people decide to act like the Big Shiny Pope Of Dick.

What to do, what to do... well, its all up to us (m'kay?). If we want to see cool threads we gotta start them. If we see a good thread getting rotted, we've got to drag it kicking and screaming back onto topic (and yes, I know I'm practically the avatar of threadrot.) Ask awkward questions, plunge into areas of huge and horrible contention, raise the level of debate, create new suits to act as Devil's Advocates (especially useful in places like 911, since most of the opposing viewpoints seem to be provided by people who think an Osama Bin Laden urinal cake is the last word in political humor).

Maybe some kind of voluntary code of conduct would be helpful?
 
 
Captain Zoom
18:56 / 31.01.02
I've kind of been plagued by this too. A lot of the discussion that goes on is just that, discussion, without any action. It is one thing for an idea to be revolutionary. But making that revolutionary idea a revolutionary act is something entirely different.
Perhaps the whole point was for us to evolve enough to strike out into the real world with these ideas. The only example I can think of is the Magickal Order of Barbelith.
I love this place. I have met people here who have enriched my life immensely, but I have to agree with Sax in that it's a very different beast from what I think was originally envisioned.

Dying? I don't know. Stagnating? Maybe. I don't want it to go away, but I think we need another evolution.

Zoom.
 
 
Naked Flame
19:00 / 31.01.02
Phases. This place has always had 'em. Some people will leave, some lurkers will decloak, we may occasionally get mice eating relatively important bits of the server, but I think Barbelith is just getting started. The role of the board may well mutate if more (& more interesting) barbecontent happens IRL and online collaboration...

and let's be honest, we have 1400+ people, all of whom could jump in on a conversation and in practice there's a couple of hundred that make a habit of it. there are going to be tears before bedtime occasionally with that large a group.

this place continues to function for me as a metablog, a lovely chatsite, source of some of the best RL fun in ages, and a continuing social experiment. And it's full of luvly peeple.


edit: it's really gotta be about collaboration and more RL activity. Can't achieve (r)evolution just by logging into a website. It'd be no fun that way.

[ 31-01-2002: Message edited by: Flame On ]
 
 
w1rebaby
19:02 / 31.01.02
Every board I've ever been on has, at one time or the other, had people saying "everything's getting petty and meaningless, what's happened?"

Usually this is just because, like any social grouping, boards have good and bad times. I used to dismiss the idea but I was on a board which I think is close to effectively self destructing. I have to say that that wouldn't have happened without software faults.

The warning sign is when nobody else is joining but the regulars seem quite happy with the situation. That's when a board's hit stagnation, too cliquey to attract anyone new and bound to suffer from dropouts. Eventually it will die.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:04 / 31.01.02
quote:Originally posted by w1rebaby:
The warning sign is when nobody else is joining but the regulars seem quite happy with the situation.


Yeah... how can we encourage new people to get involved? (says she, having been here for a grand total of 7 or 8 months...)
 
 
w1rebaby
19:08 / 31.01.02
Well, the uptake rate isn't that bad. As long as it matches or exceeds the leaving rate, that's good.

The important thing is not to create an atmosphere where people feel too intimidated to contribute. I think the amount of bollocks posted on Conversation works in that regard.

 
 
Captain Zoom
19:10 / 31.01.02
They're there. It's just hard to tell sometimes with all the multiple suits/one owner things going on. I tell people IRL to check this place out all the time.

What we need is an infomercial.

Zoom.
 
 
Tezcatlipoca
19:32 / 31.01.02
<Tez ascends soapbox>

As a new member I'm not really in a position to say it is or isn't dying in comparison to 'the good ole days', but, one of the things that attracted me to the board was the fact that there are always at least three or four threads which do interest me.

Old? Maybe. Stale? At times, perhaps. But there isn't anything *quite* like it anywhere else, and that's a good thing in my book.

<Tez descends from soapbox>

[ 31-01-2002: Message edited by: Tezcatlipoka ]
 
 
Ierne
19:42 / 31.01.02
Arrgh– just when I have to leave work for the day, I see this topic...

Short answer: No, it isn't dying. Changing, yes, but not dying. I don't think it's stagnating either, I've noticed quite a few new peeps posting recently.

Putting my old fart hat on, I'd say there was a time when there was wonder on the board, when honest debate raged without the slap-downs and the sulks. When new people weren't scared to post and old ones didn't know everything about everything. – Sax

It still happens here, you know. Maybe if everybody stops bitching, whining and moaning about cliques and "so-and-so isn't nice to me" and actually start making a concerted effort to THINK ABOUT and understand what others post and WHY, maybe more of you will notice.

If you (the impersonal you, that is) really think this place is dying, then it's dying for you. So leave for a bit, and give other people space. But for fuck's sake stop whining about "how it used to be"–it's tedious for everyone else to read about.

back tomorrow.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
20:02 / 31.01.02
I hate to say it, but I feel that Barelith has become all talk and bluster and no revolution.

There are some off-shoots that are wanting to change things, but we're all involved in so much navel-gazing...

I know that I'm going to change MY focus when I respond in a few ways. I'll still chat it up a bit, but I'll think twice about adding my voice my asking myself, "What does this Change?"
 
 
Ganesh
20:08 / 31.01.02
Dying in a cheaty Tarot not-really-Death-just change sort of way, maybe...
 
 
gentleman loser
20:09 / 31.01.02
Recommendation? Skip the Conversation.

The infighting seems to be contained here and I for one hope it stays that way.

Considering that there are almost 1500 members, this place is remarkably civil, with a couple of exceptions. As for semantics, any place like Barbelith is going to get bogged down with that.

If you're unhappy, set a good example. The Art & Design and Laboratory sections could always use some more solid input.
 
 
Ganesh
20:15 / 31.01.02
quote:Originally posted by gentleman loser:
The infighting seems to be contained here and I for one hope it stays that way.


S'what it's for, after all...
 
 
w1rebaby
20:18 / 31.01.02
quote:There are some off-shoots that are wanting to change things, but we're all involved in so much navel-gazing...

...I'll think twice about adding my voice my asking myself, "What does this Change?"


A good idea, but sometimes, well, the Will To Change just isn't there, and that's nothing to be ashamed of.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
20:42 / 31.01.02
I've not been here long, so dunno and can't say. but since not being fully in possession of all the relevant facts has never stopped me before...

I do know that I first checked the site out as two big things were happening - 9/11 and my partner was moving to London.

the 9/11 discussions hooked me. it wasn't just that I read a lot of stuff and thought that's what I think, wish I'd said that so succinctly, but there was also stuff I disagreed with, that made me angry but also made me think. and I have this big big aversion to places where everybody agrees. not healthy for the body politic, not healthy for me either.

and, as time went on, I discovered lots of interesting people who were funny, whose opinions I could respect, who had robust egos (mostly), and with whom I might passionately disagree on one issue or another. and (inevitably) a few, very few, people wearing fictionsuits which had straps and buckles dangling from the elongated sleeves. go read another thread time.

then I discovered the less formal environment of the Conversation. it is charming, beguiling, unexpected, adolescent, infuriating. and can be very moving.

today I read Knowledge's Perspective thread and found that [infinite monkeys] had posted the Kaddish, the Jewish Prayer for the Dead (I think), and could have wept. certainly welled up and I never cry. tough guy.

I like people posting to explore themselves and to taste the experience of others. joining in that has helped to keep my pecker up as I adjusted to the weekday single life, having lost that habit.

and being an organic, indisciplined thing,
every now and then it gets ugly and shades into the discomfort zone. at which times I generally go and read another thread. or maybe just dip my toe in the thread-turbulence first, for a few posts, before I change channels.

it's great. I really enjoy it all, neon pink in tooth and claw as it is. maybe I will tire of it, burn out, drift off. maybe that's just how it is. maybe that won't happen for a good while yet.

Barbelith's an organic, living thing and that means it will always be changing until entropy sets in. and who knows what we'll all be doing then?

but for now, I haven't had so much fun since our buddies gave us a Talking Simpsons Living Room for Christmas one year.

quote:Let's all sit down and discuss it over a blueberry muffin...
Marge Simpson, Christmas 1999
 
 
Jack Fear
09:40 / 01.02.02
The board's been in its death throes since its founding--perpetually dying, and perpetually in the process of being born.

You know. Just like everything else.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
09:40 / 01.02.02
'S true.

But if you're worried, don't say "Is it dying?"

Administer some first aid. Pump up a topic. Grace the Creation or the Head Shop. Agitate the Switchboard. God help me, inform the Lab.

The air has changed. I have to admit, I miss Saveloy's quirky topics and Jack Fear's Surrealist Handbook moments. On the other hand, now we have Mordant Carnival. I miss YNH, but he's back, and Lyra is once again swinging the hatchet for truth and the ideal way. I miss Deva, but she'll be back. I hope.

Nothing is constant except Ganesh. And Flyboy.

But you know, we're not, bloody not, living in the smokey candle end of time, and we're not dwarves on the shoulders of giants. This is pretty much how it always was, and what matters is this:

Barbelith exists because we're here. So we have to do stuff which is worth doing or we may as well be in bed.

That's all I have to say about that.
 
 
Francine I
09:40 / 01.02.02
I think Nick has acheived the "Last Word(tm)".
 
 
betty woo
09:40 / 01.02.02
He's certainly summed up what I was thinking of saying.

Dying may be too loaded a word - evolving is more appropriate, perhaps. As a collective entity, what it becomes in each new stage is a product of what we each want it to be, and how much effort we put into making those individual visions manifest as part of the whole.
 
 
Molly Shortcake
09:40 / 01.02.02
<self-refrential joke> Wellllll....we could always bring in the n.W.o.....</self-refrential joke>
 
 
Persephone
09:40 / 01.02.02
I agree with the thing about individuals taking responsibility for starting threads and all that... except that it's more in the sense of the lottery, you know, "you gotta play to win." Doesn't mean you're *going* to win. But sure, start brilliant threads. Doesn't mean they're guaranteed to beat crowding around the troll cage and poking inside with sticks; but the biggest difference is between zero and one in a million than between one and anything else. That's my rationale for playing the lottery, anyway.

This also reminds me of Malcolm Gladwell's book on epidemics, I think it's called The Tipping Point... I'll look it up tomorrow.
 
 
The Natural Way
09:40 / 01.02.02
MY GOD, YAYASSS!

Barbelith IS dying!

It is terrible, terrible to behold!

I definitely think it's time to hold some people here. W/ real love.

Who's up for joining Team H.O.L.D.I.N.G. W./. R.E.A.L. L.O.V.E.?

(Yeah, Yeah, Bitchy, we know you are....)

[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: Sgunnice Runcheon 'n' ]
 
 
Ganesh
09:40 / 01.02.02
<traumatic flashbacks to Tinkerbell's harrowing death scene in His Majesty's Theatre (Aberdeen)'s 1978 reinterpretation of 'Peter Pan'>
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
09:40 / 01.02.02
I always wanted to put on a production of Tinkerbell, and have Peter look up at the audience and say, slowly and clearly.

"It's no good. You didn't believe hard enough. Tinkerbell's dead and it's your fault."

Curtain.


Way-ull....as the still centre of a fair bit of the recent round of girlfighting, I'd say things here are....much the same as they were.

The Headshop and Books are maybe yet more lamentably underposted than at some points, the toys sailing out of prams a leeetle faster in the Conversation that sometimes, but then that judgement reflects my own disappointments with the Board, which have remained pretty much stable and, well, *mine*.

I think Barbelith may be changing - most obviously, there has been an influx of people who, for good or bad, don't give a toss about The Revolution, whatsoever that may be. That might be a good thing or a bad thing. Personally, if somebody who only ever posts in the conversation about their favourite hair dye wants to PayPal Tom $2.50 a month to keep the board going, then I tend to feel we should consider that a good thing, since it helps to maintain the whole environment, and, as Flux and Ganesh have pointed out, the scrapping is generally hemmed into the Conversation, which some people seem to take very seriously indeed and others treat as a matter of personal amusement. Diff'rent strokes, you know.

He said I was Neptune.
He made me play tridents


I think something which has got lost in the noise (and I think, WTUR, the way it was put was something of a contributing factor to this) is Kooky's suggestion that people are too intimidated to venture into sections of the board outside the Conversation. Which *is* a bit of a worrying assertion.


Mind you, on average the Conversation provides a noticeably higher standard of discussion than any other message board I have encountered, so it's not exactly *all* bad...depends what you want to get out of the place, I guess.

And, you know, the good old days had things like the full-time presence of dear old RRM, who, amusing as he may have been, could out-point a relative amateur like the KNodge on volume of posting and nastiness of personal abuse anytime...it's not exaclty all whiskers on kittens.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
09:40 / 01.02.02
I hear you, Haus. Since we're talking about our problems with the board - some of which, for some people, involve underposted forums, including Books, which I moderate, & the Lab and Art and Design (though I must say Saveloy's posts in the science art and anti-Design threads have made several days for me)... since we're talking about that, perhaps it would be a good time to think about what we actually want from these places.

Actually this is Moderator Insecurity rearing its ugly head... I have been having a hard time trying to think of decent threads to post in Books, & though there has been some interesting discussion (e.g. in the thread on the Canon) it does tend to resort to list threads in the end. With the notable exception of the Book Club. What do you lot think *should* be happening down there?
 
 
deja_vroom
09:40 / 01.02.02
<Roger Waters>Every six months someone says that Barbelith is dying. And it never happens. That's never gonna happen.</Roger Waters>
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
09:40 / 01.02.02
quote:Originally posted by He said he had a horrible Haus:
He said I was Neptune.
He made me play tridents
Good Christ. I thought I was the only one who remembered that episode. Everyone else I've mentioned it to suggested I should have a lie down.

I'm with KCC on defining what should be going on in fora a little more. I remember when I first came on here, there was a ban being enforced on High Fidelity lists - those lists of best whatevers that crop up a lot. I'd be all for having a period where list threads get the shunt again, too: they happen all the time and certainly make sure that The Spectacle's stuff are viewed as more fluffy than others. I don't know - it may be just me, but I'd like to move beyond lists of what films are "really fucked up", or "invisible", and move on to why particular films are considered so. Or something.

I dunno. I just feel like there needs to be a bit of tightening up in places. Or maybe a bit of serious-ifyin'. That's the thing that confounds me a bit here, I guess; it does seem sometimes like posters who're setting up beefy posts are out in the wilderness a little when it comes to people responding - purely because it's easier to post to a fourteen page "does your arse look big in this?" fluff thread than it is to hunker down to an involved topic.
 
 
higuita
11:13 / 01.02.02
Everything's fine! Move along. Nothing to see here...

Things seem to go in cycles - I can't say I have been here as long as some, but I found things flared up around Mayday last year, obviously around September, and now perhaps we're waiting for the next big oomph.

Sometimes events give the board a push, but I found that the time I enjoyed the site most was when I had a lot of time to spend on it and contributed a lot. It came back.

For example, I found out what a peace mango was - normally I wouldn't go in to magick but... I got a lot out of that thread.

Not dying, just sleeping. From some angles.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
11:34 / 01.02.02
In fighting

Newbie intimidation

Stagnation

Board death

Personal grievances

Are we then leading to a barbelith apocalypse?

Potentially yes. However I think that we have an opportunity to reverse the situation and introduce a breath of fresh air to this place.

In certain parts of the globe the clever people have determined that one of the best ways to prevent a forest fire is to take fire to the forest.

If you haven't sussed where I'm going with this, I'm talking about a board wipe. I understand that a lot of important stuff has been said and a great many things discussed and that there are some wonderful threads that exist in this place. But really, how bad a loss would it be?

It may sound a little radical but I'm comfortable in saying that it could seriously benefit the life and character of these boards if we werre to agree on a particular date and at the end of that day have everything prior to that date deleted.

This carries one small proviso, as a responsibility to others here, this would have to be done without reasonable objection.

If you want to know what is reasonable, I can't provide that answer, it's not for me to decide.
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
11:41 / 01.02.02
But what exactly would it achieve, apart from the thrill of pleasure that accompanies any book-burning?

The conversation is wiped fairly regularly. The other topics rarely descend into "in fighting", and I don't see very much "Newbie intimidation" - if there is one thing Mr. Knodge is not, it is intimidated. "personal grievances"....again, there are some old scores, but I don't see them as necessarily a) terminal or b) helped by the obliteration of Barbelith's archives. "Board Death" I fear I don't understand.

Am I being very dim?
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
11:43 / 01.02.02
No
 
 
w1rebaby
12:01 / 01.02.02
Deleting wouldn't seem to serve much purpose (except saving disk space) but locking old threads and so forcing people to start new ones might stop things getting bogged down.

Of course, the easy solution to that is for people to just, er, start lots of new threads while keeping the old ones.

On reflection, locking or deleting old threads would probably just result in people starting them up again under new names anyway.
 
  

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