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Is Barbelith dying?

 
  

Page: 123(4)567

 
 
The Knowledge +1
09:28 / 07.02.02
Mordant carnival,
you are so fat,
when you were born,
they screamed 'whatafucksthat'

You bounced on out,
and onto the floor,
and smashed a hole,
right through the wall.

You carried om,
bouncing down the hall,
you hit an old man,
and he was no more.

You went unstopped,
just like viagra,
and a great big hard-on,
do you know what that is?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:28 / 07.02.02
Knodge: What part of "in the Creation" did you fail to grasp?

See you in March. My Ninja Termites owe you paiiiiin.

[ 07-02-2002: Message edited by: Mordant C@rnival ]
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
11:04 / 07.02.02
Knodgers post would ahve been truly hilarious if only he had waited two and a half hours.
 
 
gozer the destructor
12:45 / 11.02.02
As someone who has only very recently been iniated into the invisible vision i want to say this, the SNAFU principle relies on the fact that there is always friction, Situation Normal All Fucked Up - chaos resolves itself in dialectic and then the energy moves to fulfill itself elsewhere, by approaching the conflict head on you create synergy a combined effect greater than the sum of individual effect alowing energy its fate and as regards barring this discordian, the Zen phrase that 'the more laws there are the more criminals there are' seems wholly applicable. Spirit will die without any of the elementals including fire.
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
12:48 / 11.02.02
Well, glad we sorted that out.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
05:16 / 07.12.06
Thought I'd bring this back up seeing as in the last couple of months there have been individual threads about the lack of activity in the Head Shop, Music, Comics and now TV and Film and Games and Gameplay. I must admit I'm not on the board for much more than half an hour every day, sometimes I'm not doing much more than looking to see if there's moderating that needs doing.

Does anyone else feel the same way?
 
 
Evil Scientist
07:25 / 07.12.06
TV's still pretty active isn't it? If only because of the weekly Torchwood disection sessions.

We seem to go through these patches every now and then though. It might be just because a lot of people are getting ready for Christmas.

I'm sure things'll swing back up to normal in a few weeks time.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
11:35 / 07.12.06
Well actually, these issues have been coming up for longer than just recently, the discussions about problems in G&G started in April, Flyboy started talking about the Music Forum in January.
 
 
illmatic
12:06 / 07.12.06
You could add The Temple in there, it's been pretty dead for a while now. I'm not that fussed, really, as I feel I've said most of what I have to say on the subjects that get commonly discussed.

I think a possible issue might be that a few board "old-timers" who were first posting in their early/mid twenties are now hitting that stage in their lives when they just can't post to the internet all the time, due to increasing workloads and responsibilites. That's certainly the case with me. Perhaps we'll all come back when we retire.
 
 
Sniv
12:39 / 07.12.06
But, isn't this period in Barbelith's 2006 a lot better than it was, say three months ago? It seems to be that 2006 has been an odd year on the board, with many little fights all over the place culminating in PW getting (himself) kicked off the board. At least we're not all at each others throats at the moment, are we? And I think that's what a lot of the traffic this year has been - fight threads, threads that spill out of control (like a D*g-P**e) into 6 pages of pointlessness in a few hours. The policy being chock full of pariah-flagellating and back-biting.

Yes, it's quiet, but at least it's civilised. Take, for example, Rural Savage's recent-ish 'Chav' thread. I posit that if, say, I had posted those views around 6 months ago, I would have been seriously taken to task for it and would not have had the gentle coaching from many of our more respected members (although I could well have made more of a tit out of myself, but I digress). I think this is a good thing, nobody needs the tiring, long and boring constant fight threads. And if it means that as a board we're posting 300 less posts a month, then that's a good thing, because it's 300 less destructive, negative posts.

Although - we've just had a big influx of new-peeps. Where are they? C'mon new guys! Start some threads with all of your brilliant new ideas! Or have we gotten to the point where everything worth saying on Barbelith has already been said?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:44 / 07.12.06
I posit that if, say, I had posted those views around 6 months ago, I would have been seriously taken to task for it and would not have had the gentle coaching from many of our more respected members

Quite possibly, because you would have been expected to know better, because you had already been through that conversation as observer and participant any number of times. Rural Savage's status as neophyte I suspect is more protection than a gentling of the board.
 
 
Sniv
17:03 / 07.12.06
I'd just like to quickly clarify that I really didn't mean that in a "Your all pickin on me!!11!" way, just in case that's how it came across. I like this new, kindler gentler Barbelith, and I watched that thread in bloodthirsty anticipation and was rewarded by seeing some 'lithers like Ganesh being extremely patient in their 'this is how we debate on Barbelith' attitude. It showed a distinct change from how conflict is usually dealt with (well, the conflict that I've seen and remember vividly, anyhow).
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:24 / 07.12.06
Examples, John, with links, please, or else we're not really getting anywhere here.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
18:55 / 07.12.06
I'm not John, but I think the aforementioned "Chav" thread is emblematic of what he means: Ganesh exhibits truly superhuman levels of patience, everyone contributes to the conversation, and while there's a bit of snark it doesn't erupt into full-blown, well, dissing.

I'm not sure that this means that people on Barbelith are being "nicer" or that the button-pushers have dropped in quantity to the point where not as many mental landmines are being set off, though. I suspect it's more the latter than the former.

Edit: Just to be clear, I think there's a general drop in what Fark would call "asshattery" on Barbelith these days, which means in turn senior posters have more mental resources to deal with potential firestorms with patience and forbearance.
 
 
Jack Fear
19:28 / 07.12.06
I think the Haus was asking for examples of "How conflict is usually dealt with"—i.e., the sort of unwarranted, bitchy, abusive behavior about which everybody loves to complain, but of which nobody can actually point to an example when pressed.

I mean, we know it's out there.
It must be. Right?

By which I mean, this is an actual, honest-to-Allah phenomenon, this atmosphere of hostility, yeah? It's not just the normal, face-saving human tendency to, when one is proven wrong, to blame the other fellow for framing the question in a deceptive manner?

Naw. It couldn't be that. There's got to be all kinds of rampant undeserved kicking going on. Admittedly, I don't see a whole lot of it going on, but it must be happening, people moan about it so.

Maybe it's going on under the surface, like.
Yeah. That'd explain it.
 
 
Isadore
20:21 / 07.12.06
Where's the aura of hostility? Well, gee. For me it started when I posted an opinion on misogyny and Barbelith to Feminism 101 in the Convo and got my head bit off for it. Matt gave a general apology later, which I'm sad to say didn't do much for me at all (rants and crazed mutterings? try direct personal attacks, thanks); and after some thought and a few weeks of increasing defensive-nervous-wreck mode, I have more or less retreated from the board. (Primary exceptions being when fred mentions something here, and/or I see the word Nobilis on random trawls.)

This is entirely my experience of the board, no one else's, but hey, there's an example for you.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:34 / 07.12.06
I'm sorry about your experience there, Celane. However, I also note that Matt was almost immediately held up for his attitude and his phrasing by alas, myself, Joe Damage-I-You, and Nina (Pretentious Bitch), Mordant Carnival and Lurid Archive - and all of these people are long-time, well-known, moderator-level members - promptly supported your experience and your right to express it. As such, how did you feel that Barbelith let you down? Did it not censure Matt strongly enough?
 
 
Isadore
20:50 / 07.12.06
I don't feel that Barbelith has let me down, Haus; you and many other people have been very kind to me here. Rather, I suggest that the hypothetical aura of hostility that seems to keep cropping up in discussion comes from the people here who do occasionally get overly nasty in their responses. I think it's really important to distinguish between anger over issues and anger at people -- and when that distinction breaks down, lo and behold, hostility, hurt feelings, angst, etc.

Me, I'm prone to panic attacks, so I'm trying to jump back in and be a bit less defensive this time around. Go, little pills, go.
 
 
Jack Fear
22:15 / 07.12.06
Fair points all, Celane. But would you go so far as to categorize those occasional hostile responses as our electronic boyfriend John does—as "the usual way we deal with conflict"?
 
 
Isadore
22:52 / 07.12.06
Nope. I haven't really experienced enough to be able to say what the typical method of resolving conflict is for the board as a whole; and frankly, generalizations make my teeth itch.

But it does happen, and I can see where people can feel there's an 'aura of hostility' around Barbelith because in some situations there have been what I would consider unwarrantedly hostile responses. I used to keep a list of incidences in the Temple where people'd ask a pretty basic question, nothing offensive, and get told they were idiots and not to come back; I'll see if I can find the file when I get back. I know the Temple gets deluged by lots of the same crap over and over, but I also can't see how asking for information about crossroads in the Stupid Magick Questions thread is so far out of line, either.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
23:01 / 07.12.06
I'd appreciate it if you could dig that out, Celane. The Temple has a bit of a rep as being tough on noobs; I tend to regard this as undeserved but maybe my perspective is skewed.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:02 / 07.12.06
Rather, I suggest that the hypothetical aura of hostility that seems to keep cropping up in discussion comes from the people here who do occasionally get overly nasty in their responses. I think it's really important to distinguish between anger over issues and anger at people -- and when that distinction breaks down, lo and behold, hostility, hurt feelings, angst, etc.

I think that's a very good point, Celane - that we often have trouble with separating, as it were, the ball and the man. Which is often further complicated by the development of the discussion. So, for example, to look at the chav thread - and I think MattShep may be right to say that we are less thinly-stretched at present and so people may have more patience - rural savage goes to great lengths to make the discussion personal, by repeatedly making statements about and judgements on what Ganesh is doing and his motivation for it.

On t'other hand, I think there is certainly a level of protection that Barbelith just can't extend, and, again, it shows good self-knowledge for people to be aware of how they interact with those limits. I think one of the problems with Paranoidwriter was that he didn't really have a sense of what protections Barbelith could offer to him and what it could not without adversely affecting other people's experience of the board.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:02 / 08.12.06
I can see where people can feel there's an 'aura of hostility' around Barbelith because in some situations there have been what I would consider unwarrantedly hostile responses

I know this is really cheeky and actually I agree with what Haus said above but at the same time I just can't suppress the urge to point out that on this basis there's an aura of hostility around life.
 
 
electric monk
12:01 / 08.12.06
Celane, is this the incident you were referencing? I can see where things were Initially prickly, but I think it worked out okay.

Anyway, please do find that file. I'm interested as well.
 
 
Quantum
16:53 / 08.12.06
Look at the aura of hostility on the previous page, Barbelith is mellowing in it's old age.
 
 
Char Aina
16:59 / 08.12.06
you would say that, you idiot.
 
 
Ganesh
21:41 / 08.12.06
Leapologist twat.
 
 
Char Aina
21:53 / 08.12.06
keep it to yourself, quack.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
00:02 / 09.12.06
Yes, Celane, I can certainly see why you might feel a bit uncomfortable about that series of posts, but I don't think there was actually any hostility there. There was a slightly terse response, which was then elaborated on. The initial poster didn't seem put off by it.
 
 
Quantum
00:08 / 09.12.06
Personally I didn't even read it as terse, the respondent advised the poster to go and try it out and learn from their own experience. It's a fair enough position, and even if it weren't one post does not a hostile atmosphere make.
 
 
Quantum
00:13 / 09.12.06
...and the next day the person tried it and came home in some dead man's slippers, result I'd say.
 
 
Isadore
07:09 / 11.12.06
Well, I'm obviously being overly sensitive verging on paranoid. Sorry 'bout that.
 
 
Jack Fear
15:34 / 11.12.06
Aw, c’mon—don’t be that waaaaaaaay...

I think there is a legitimate discussion to be had about the creation of safe spaces—and I think we need to be frank about the limitations we face in any effort to do so.

Some of those limitations are going to be intrinsic to the characters of the members—different posters will have different tolerance levels for conflict and brusqueness; different posters will have different argumentative styles—some more vehement than others—and differing levels of rhetorical skill with which to make their cases; some people just hate to lose, and will seek to redefine their own failures of rhetoric as the opposing side “moving the goalposts,” or “nitpicking over semantics,” or being milk-smelling shut-ins insufficiently acquainted with the ways of real live tigers and thus illegitimate in their opinions. This is ugly and unproductive behavior, obviously, and we do (and will continue to do) all that we can to discourage it. But we are human; we are of a nature to be imperfect.

We can try to accommodate posters of differing sensibilities, and we should—but perfecting human nature is beyond the abilities or the remit of any message-board. And we need to acknowledge that.

Some of those limitations will be intrinsic to the broadly-agreed mores of the board. We do not wish to be a safe space for the expression of all opinions, after all; at the risk of bringing Godwin’s Law down upon myself, I think we can safely say that if you hold the opinion that Hitler had the right idea and that six million Europeans Jews dead was too little too late, Barbelith is not, and has no desire to be, a safe place for you to express that opinion. Nor are we interested in being a safe space to say that gay folk are bound for eternal damnation. I’m sure you can think of other examples. In light of that, it’s clear that, in a sense, our status as a safe, nonjudgmental space is already compromised; not fatally so, perhaps, but still: the genie is out of the bottle, and it’s up to all of us to understand that compromise, to police it, to be vigilant that it not become the thin end of a wedge or the top of a slippery slope. To mix my metaphors a tad.

A thought: some limitations of the perception of safety are built into the structure of the board, aren’t they? There are statements made in all seriousness in the Temple, or Comics, that are treated with respect in their respective fora, that would be ripped to shreds in a flurry of piss-taking and fish-related puns were they made in the Conversation.

Lastly, and most importantly, we need to examine the relationship between “safety” and “responsibility.” Words have consequences; if there is one central rule to this place, one motto that should be carved into the marble arch over the gates to the glorious City of Barbelith, it is that. Say what you will, but be prepared to own it.

I find that openness about this sort of thing is the best curative, rather than brooding in silence. Private messages are a godsend for this. I don’t send many, myself, because I am very rarely offended; but when I receive a PM from someone pointing out that my gruff-curmudgeon persona has veered into the territory of the belittling and/or the obnoxious, I have invariably found it both chastening and instructive—and have always been filled with gratitude towards the person who took the time to tell me I was making an ass of myself. Not a pleasant experience, perhaps, but a necessary one; because how am I gonna get better if nobody tells when I’m fuckin’ up?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
16:59 / 11.12.06
I also don't think Celane should feel bad about bringing up a concern.
 
 
Jack Fear
17:56 / 11.12.06
Nor do I. The above is an attempt to get Celane to engage in re: that concern. I'm not writing Celane off in any way—I'm genuinely interested in what s/he (or anybody else) has to say about these issues; How safe is Barbelith? How safe do we want it to be? How do we move forward to make Barbelith the kind of discussion space that we want it to be?

If anything, Celane deserves a comparatively loud voice in this discussion—precisely because s/he feels s/he's been denied a proper hearing in other discussions.
 
  

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