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Is Barbelith dying?

 
  

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Jake, Colossus of Clout
02:23 / 25.03.07
I understand that, Haus, but it's not like we have a torrent of trolls surging in that need to be constantly whacked with the banhammer. We seem to have troll crises, what, twice a year? Can that really be the source of (what I perceive as) the elevated nastiness of the board these days? I dunno, man, maybe I'm just overly sensitive.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
02:32 / 25.03.07
You might not want to name names, but it's impossible to have any idea whether you're being sensitive or not unless you give a couple of examples, Jake.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
02:42 / 25.03.07
Well, buttergun wasn't banned. Sensitive wasn't banned for that - he ended up being banned after he changed his name to "Sensitive Rapist", then insulted everyone who asked him to change it, or indeed deal with its consequences. Actually, none of our recent bans have exactly been for trolling in the classical sense.

We're not just talking about trolling, here, or about banning, and as we have already repeatedly said, there is not much trolling because you have to be really astonishingly dedicated, compared to, say, the amount of time and attention it takes to get an email address or join Byrne Robotics, to get onto Barbelith. However, we have behaviour which, in some people's view, needs to be addressed, discussed and challenged, and that goes on in a way which has severe technical hobbling, just as application to Barbelith does, which affects how people react in those situations, I think.

So, recently, we have had Netaungrot in the Temple, Tyra Banks being called a bitch, Sole Eater's ex-wife being called a bitch, and Scarlett156's thoughts on Islam's war on the west. These have all resulted in varied reactions, but banning has only been proposed in one case, and that bannning discussion leading fairly quickly to a conclusion in the negative. But trolling or banning aside, these remain behaviours, which inspire reactions, and the broader picture - including applications, banning, moderation und so weiter - all affect those reactions, I think. And if there is no resolution likely or possible to that picture, frustration may well set in.
 
 
Jake, Colossus of Clout
02:50 / 25.03.07
I knew that would be a sticking point, but it's still a no-go, buddy, sorry. I really, really have no desire to be embroiled in some sort of "Barbe-controversy." I'm more interested in people's opinions on the atmosphere of Barbelith as a whole, and I wanted to avoid using specific instances that would personalize things. It's my opinion that the entire board has become less friendly, but I certainly don't blame any individual posters for that, and so I feel it's essential to keep it general.

I'm honestly not trying to be a dick, or make veiled references that some posters might "get," I just wanted to see if anyone else would read my post and feel the same way, because it could all be in my head and I'm genuinely curious. I'm not as articulate as some people here, so I may not have gotten across what I meant to say as well as I could have.
 
 
Jake, Colossus of Clout
03:04 / 25.03.07
Crosspost with Haus, there.

I'm not saying there isn't douchebaggery being perpetrated, I'm just saying that it seems like there isn't enough to justify the touchiness that has, in my mind, manifested itself on Barbelith. It's not even the trolls really, it just seems like a lot of people here fight more, and use any excuse to do so.

Another thing that may be relevant is that I don't read the Temple, and it seems like a lot of the controversial things that go on here gestate there, for some reason.

Oh, I don't know. I don't think I'm expressing myself properly. I just feel like Barbelith has this element of stress that it never had before. It could just be me, because I'm stressed at the mo (fantasy baseball draft tomorrow and all), but I've been getting this feeling from the joint for a while now.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:31 / 25.03.07
What, to your mind, would constitute "enough?" More people calling women bitches, or stronger insults? I'm not being snippy, I'm just a bit lost as to the point you're trying to make here. I get that the board is in some ways a more tense and less forgiving place than it used to be, but you could hardly call it ban-happy or anything.

(I would also point out that dropping a very debatable point in a debatey bit of the forum and then going "well, I don't want to get into a debate about this" generally doesn't go over all that well.)
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:12 / 25.03.07
Another thing that may be relevant is that I don't read the Temple, and it seems like a lot of the controversial things that go on here gestate there, for some reason.

Could well be... I'm having a hard time articulating this without sounding like I'm on the attack, but I kind of feel this is a bit of a problem.

Because a lot of people here don't have any real reason to check out the the Temple regularly, and because of the nature of the Temple itself, I often feel like I'm struggling to convey what exactly is wrong in a given situation. Sometimes it's pretty obvious, an offence the whole board can relate to--misogynistic, racist, or otherwise bigoted language etc. Other times, though, it's harder to pin down.

From my perspective, a person may be coming into the Temple and rotting threads with deliberately garbled posts, blatantly made-up anecdotes, and personal attacks. However, I'm actuely aware that from a non-Templey perspective a lot of my posts are probably rather opaque and garbled-sounding, a lot of my experiences as I relate them (whilst very real to me) could certainly have been made up, and my bringing the poster to the board's attention is going to look just like another personal attack. Not sure how to get around this.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
12:53 / 25.03.07
These things are all linked - you can't seperate the perceived increase in snippiness from the broken mechanics of the board, because the one is a direct result of the other. I'm convinced about that. People may be more prepared to give idiots like the aforementioned more of a chance to turn things around if there was an effective way of dealing with said idiots through the software - whether than be temp bans, perma-bans, the introduction of posting restrictions, whatever - should they continue to be idiots. There's also a slim chance that idiots continue to be idiots precisely because they know they're free to, there being *nothing* that anybody else'll be able to do about it that'll make the slightest bit of difference.

It's all part of the same thing. Complete frustration.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:32 / 25.03.07
True, except that Jake seems convinced that a lot of the people being sniped at are not idiots at all, or rather have not said anything idiotic:

I always worry that someone is going to have a go with me because I posted something that could be construed as offensive if you squint and look at it sideways. I think people look for that kind of shit now, just to start fights...

In other words it's that good old standard, the idea that some people just look for things to be offended by. This is a familiar argument - however usually it's in reference to at least one specific incident. Without that, it is impossible to have an idea what is being refered to - I may as well claim that I, personally, have been the victim of a campaign of bullying on the board based on my nationality. I don't want to say where and when though.
 
 
Olulabelle
14:10 / 25.03.07
I used to sometimes feel that people were deliberately looking for things to be offended by. I suppose I thought that keeping things peaceful was better than fronting people up about things they said, I don't know why.

I have changed my mind now about that. This is for various reasons, some of that to do with reading old, old threads where people willingly explained their tactics regarding how to deal with offensive things, some of that to do with acknowledging my own personal reaction to the things that are being said, rather than just squashing it because it's 'making a fuss'.

I am increasingly glad that these people do it because currently we have no other system to deal with it.

I just wanted to say that.
 
 
HCE
15:04 / 25.03.07
True, except that Jake seems convinced that a lot of the people being sniped at are not idiots at all, or rather have not said anything idiotic

What's disheartening about this is that I can't think of a single example where somebody has been offended and refused to explain why. In fact, people generally go to great lengths to explain in detail why, for example, calling your ex-wife a bitch is offensive to them while a woman changing her own screenname to something with 'bitch' in is it not, for the benefit of others who might not see it the same way.

You may examine somebody's reasons and decide that you are not, yourself, offended, but how on earth does that translate into people looking for things to be offended by?
 
 
Olulabelle
15:28 / 25.03.07
For whatever reason, but most likely the name of the board and the effect of Google, the majority of applicants want to talk about The Invisibles and Chaos Magic - by extension, comic books and magic. As a result Comic Books and the Temple are quite busy - compare the Head Shop and the Switchboard, the historical heart of Barbelith.

The reason that we get lots of Chaos Magic people coming to the board is because we are actively advertising for them. Currently, by dint of being Barbelith we are suggesting Grant Morrison, the Invisibles and Chaos Magic are key topics for us, and of course we are going to get people coming who want to talk about those things. We don't get so many fluffy pagans because we don't advertise for them. We don't get so many political thinkers because we don't advertise for them. we tout for Chaos Magic people and that's what we get.

One easy solution to this would be to change the name of the board to something which we feel does reflect the place we want Barbelith to be. If I google Grant Morrison, Barbelith The Bomb is the fifth link. Off that, there is a link to the Barbelith Index page which currently doesn't work, but the messageboard is relatively easy to find. So of course, if Barbelith comes up and I see it's called that, and I see there are people there talking about TEH MAJIKS then of course I'm going to want to join. If we changed the name of the board we would be realigning ourselves slightly and might attract a different group of people.

We've talked about this all before.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:42 / 25.03.07
We have indeed - I was in the middle of mentioning that myself when I got distracted by reading the entire Shadowsax banning thread again. Hang on...
 
 
jentacular dreams
15:50 / 25.03.07
I always worry that someone is going to have a go with me because I posted something that could be construed as offensive if you squint and look at it sideways. I think people look for that kind of shit now, just to start fights...

Perhaps they don't look for it, in a conscious way, but the board in general seems from my long-term reader perspective to be more sensitive to these things now than it was previously. And the starting fights is more an effect of the increased sniping of the board. The atmosphere has become more combative than exploratory.

Enter flyboy: True, except that Jake seems convinced that a lot of the people being sniped at are not idiots at all, or rather have not said anything idiotic:

Except he never said that did he. What he implied to my mind is that any post (such as his own) which could be taken in a perjorative way is more likely to be now than in years previous. That maybe we've lost the middle ground between DEFCON 5 and 2. That the average response is more often a condemnation than a dialogue of clarification.
 
 
Spaniel
15:54 / 25.03.07
Jake, I think the board is snippier than it used to be, and I also think there are many reasons for that - some good and some bad - most have been listed in this thread.

After reading Ganesh's LJ post I thought long and hard about my posting style and why I'm here, and I came to conclusion that, when he complained about people defining themselves through combative behaviour and snippiness, he was talking, at least in part, about posters like me. I've been resolutely grumpy for a lot of my time on Barbelith, and I think that needs to change. I'm not a particularly grumpy person IRL, in fact I'm quite the cheerful optimist most of the time. Sure, I like to moan, but I also like to enthuse, but for some reason the enthusing me doesn't turn up to Barbelith half as often as I would like. In addition, something Alas said a while back has really stayed with me: that the ability to really listen to what other people are saying is a rare quality indeed, and I want to do more of that, I want to be thinking about what someone is trying to get across before I start thinking about why they're talking out of their arse. Now, none of this is to say I will tolerate hate-speech, but I'm not really talking about those instances - I'm talking about the other 99% of the time I spend on Barbelith.

Basically, the above amounts to a mission statement. I'm going to try and be a nicer, more empathic Boboss, because I think the board needs to be a little nicer and empathic as well as being intolerant of intolerable nonsense.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:57 / 25.03.07
Flyboy: It's not your nationality.

These things are all linked - you can't seperate the perceived increase in snippiness from the broken mechanics of the board, because the one is a direct result of the other.

I think there's a lot of truth in that, which is why I started the "topics of concern" threads. The "banning"threads, in particular, I think, caused a lot of stress, in particular on the people who are generally trusted to look after the best interests of the board, through experience, familiarity and commitment. Personally, I think that this is at least in part because people who basically had no interest in the actual subject, and no ability to discuss it, but a powerful desire for the spotlight - get the right to clog up discussions, which are more attractive the higher their profile, which leads both to frustration with that person and broader frustration with the way threads can be derailed. Mathlete in the ShadowSax thread, or ParanoidWriter subsequently, caused this problem.

The broken state of banning, in particular, and the uncertain nature of the way we try to deal with it - for example, the way that about half way through the Policy discussion people were invited to post PMs to Tom directly if they did not feel like sharing their views with the board - has caused considerable stress, I think, and has demonstrated a problem in how we as a community can keep our fur clean and unmatted. At the moment, I think some of us are... well, tired, or more precisely not really confident that the returns on engagement justify the effort expended. At some point, I would like to post explaining to Lord Morgue.. sorry, Sole Eater why he is getting some push-back, on the assumption that he might not be in a good place to put those pieces together. I tried to do this with Scarlet156, here. It's a work in progress.

However, I almost dread the next time somebody really starts getting tasty with the sexism or the Islamophobia, or something else not as easy to identify and thus deal with as "I don't think the Holocaust happened" or "I hate gay people and believe them to be unnatural", and I fear that that might very easily occur from somebody realising that this board, as Shadowsax did, is a) sufficiently concerned about these things that a number of people who will be upset by them will be present, so utterances will have an impact on them, and also attention will be garnered, but b) is not sufficently centred on the protection of those people that they will be immediately banned for it.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:11 / 25.03.07
What he implied to my mind is that any post (such as his own) which could be taken in a perjorative way is more likely to be now than in years previous.

Actually, he never said that, either. Offensive, not pejorative. This I take to mean misogynistic-racist-sexist-homophobic-Islamophobic-etceterist, rather than simply insulting.

As I have already said, people tend not to believe that their own statements are on the wrong side of what it is good and commonsensical to say. As a result, people who think that is _is_ are often seen as looking for offensive content where none exists - "squinting" is one metaphor for this, others centre on hunting or sculpting - and then reacting in what is clearly not a reasonable way - metaphors of "screaming", "screeching", and here "pissing" and "moaning" often stand here for the action of writing.

However, without a clearer picture of specific behaviours, we are both guessing here, and "what Jake in my opinion was basing his feelings upon" is a less useful thing to discuss than "What I feel personally, and why". Preferably with examples, since without those it is hard to ask other people to comb threads looking for them, but failing that as a general statement of one's own emotional reaction to a general experience of Barbelith, to be taken by others as such.
 
 
Quantum
16:33 / 25.03.07
I don't read the Temple, and it seems like a lot of the controversial things that go on here gestate there, for some reason.

I do read the Temple, and I don't think that's the case. Comics, switchboard and the convo are just as likely to spawn controversy. I know it's your perception, I can't say it's wrong obv. but it could be that the fora we don't read seem to breed controversy because the controversial bits are the ones we notice. Also the Temple is a relatively busy forum, so it's going to be more likely to feature than books or creation say.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:10 / 25.03.07
TBH Quants I do think we get more than our fair share of eminently bootable asshats down there. This isn't the fault of the Temple per se, it's just a sad fact that magic, spirituality, and the occult attract jerkwads like nobody's business.
 
 
Internaut
18:42 / 25.03.07
having only been here for a few weeks -- and lurking more than posting -- im only able to say so much about the state of Barbelith.

i can only really say that i hope it isnt coming to an end. although i only post about once a day, if that, thread after thread of undiluted wisdom shouldnt have to go down the fucking drain simply because of a few pissy rows.
 
 
HCE
19:14 / 25.03.07
Which few pissy rows did you have in mind? I can point to offensive statements about women (examples: shadowsax, sole eater), disheartening behavior toward women and feminism (examples: as cited in the feminism 101 thread, and as demonstrated in the feminism 101 thread), but they are not few and I would not consider them 'pissy rows.' Please think about how you would feel if there was something was both important and upsetting enough that it had begun to sour you on this whole place, and think about how you'd feel if other people characterized that dismissively.
 
 
Olulabelle
19:47 / 25.03.07
In addition, something Alas said a while back has really stayed with me: that the ability to really listen to what other people are saying is a rare quality indeed, and I want to do more of that, I want to be thinking about what someone is trying to get across before I start thinking about why they're talking out of their arse. Now, none of this is to say I will tolerate hate-speech, but I'm not really talking about those instances - I'm talking about the other 99% of the time I spend on Barbelith.

Basically, the above amounts to a mission statement. I'm going to try and be a nicer, more empathic Boboss, because I think the board needs to be a little nicer and empathic as well as being intolerant of intolerable nonsense.


I think that's a really admirable thing to decide, and a mission statement that perhaps many of us could do with following. I certainly shall.
 
 
Olulabelle
20:00 / 25.03.07
Jake, Flyboy wrote something in 2004, in the 'What Exactly Does get you Banned on Barbelith?' thread which helped me with thinking about why people point out other people's offensive posts. He said,

For as long as Barbelith policy continues to be that people who make racist remarks unrepentently can continue to post on the board, those of us who oppose racism clearly have a duty to make those people feel unwelcome in whatever way we can. I would hope that PsionicNurse *does* feel attacked - and harrassed, and ganged up on, and made to feel unwelcome here - because hir racism is clearly very entrenched, and so is *not* welcome here.

So that's been something I've been thinking about a lot. Haus started that thread because we don't have any kind of clear and defining rules about what is or isn't ok, and because we don't have those rules, people have to 'get snippy'. If we did they wouldn't have to, because the people being offensive could be removed.
 
 
Jake, Colossus of Clout
23:13 / 25.03.07
What he implied to my mind is that any post (such as his own) which could be taken in a perjorative way is more likely to be now than in years previous.

Actually, he never said that, either. Offensive, not pejorative. This I take to mean misogynistic-racist-sexist-homophobic-Islamophobic-etceterist, rather than simply insulting.


Actually, Haus, Beeline is on the money. I mean "offensive" as in general rudeness, not bigotry. I'm fairly sure that we all agree that bigotry is not to be tolerated. I don't know why you would think that was what I meant, though, honestly.

Mordant: What, to your mind, would constitute "enough?" More people calling women bitches, or stronger insults? I'm not being snippy, I'm just a bit lost as to the point you're trying to make here. I get that the board is in some ways a more tense and less forgiving place than it used to be, but you could hardly call it ban-happy or anything.

I never said it was. I'm just saying the board is more tense and less forgiving, and that makes me sad. That's all, I'm not sticking up for Shadowsax and his ilk, for crying out loud.

I would also point out that dropping a very debatable point in a debatey bit of the forum and then going "well, I don't want to get into a debate about this" generally doesn't go over all that well.

What "debateable point" are you referring to? The fact that I feel the board has become more unpleasant in recent times? It's just my opinion, and I was only posting to see if others felt the same way.

It concerns me that everyone immediately focuses on msexism/racism/homophobia etc., because that isn't what I was talking about at all. It's the little things, like someone pissing all over someone else's taste in music/comics/videogames/social activities, whatever. We have the very popular "Barbannoy" thread, which is (it seems to me) for complaining anonymously about posters or topics we dislike without having to name names or whatever. We have other popular threads devoted to hate, misery and irritation. It just seems so negative these days. What really pisses me off at the moment is that people seem to think I posted in this thread to stick up for fucking racists or something. That's hurtful, and now I'm getting all pissy and flustered myself.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
23:25 / 25.03.07
Olulabelle: yeah, although... I think what I for one have learnt over the past few years is that that approach is, for want of a better phrase, unsustainable. What it means is that - leaving aside the people who are openly quite happy for racist etc. posts to continue - the regular members of the board schism into those who see the behaviour I outlined as necessary to deal with the problem, and those who see it as worsening the state of the board and thus becoming an even bigger problem in itself.

It's fairly obvious how this could then become a self-perpetuating circle of bitterness and disillusionment. Which I think, no offence to those who are still enjoying the board and have been oblivious to this, is what has happened. The latter group feel annoyed by the former because they won't stop what they see as excessively combative behaviour, the former group resent the latter for wanting to have a board that's as free as possible from bigotry but not supporting their efforts to achieve that. Believe me when I say that I am framing this as even-handedly as possible while at the same time only being able to speak directly about my personal experience, which has been to be part of the former.

The thing about the behaviour I described is that it was never intended to be sustainable - I think what I thought would happen was that there would be a few test-cases, a few incidents, which would force Barbelith to come to a decision as to what kind of community we should be. And at that stage I hadn't really thought about how it wasn't 'Barbelith' that had to make the decision, but rather Tom, nor did I think that he'd want to defer that decision whilst simultaneously maintaining the current power structure of the board.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:32 / 25.03.07
On "offensive" - well, my mistake. We often use "offensive" to mean "causing offence (on the grounds of racist, sexist, misogynistic content)" in Policy, rather than simply "impolite", but either meaning is perfectly valid, and I misunderstood your usage here.

Mind you:

We have the very popular "Barbannoy" thread, which is (it seems to me) for complaining anonymously about posters or topics we dislike without having to name names or whatever.

You do understand the irony of that statement, don't you?
 
 
grant
16:39 / 26.03.07
It just occurred to me that Flyboy's strategy as outlined above could so easily be accomplished by simply having a "flag user" option stuck onto the moderator decisions. I mention this mainly because that realization makes me feel a little bit sad about the (currently) unchangeable architecture of the place.

("Flag user", btw, is a feature on a few out-of-the-box BBS systems nowadays.)
 
 
Spaniel
17:19 / 26.03.07
[enthusitastic]Which if we moved to another board we could use.[/enthusitastic]

Is distributed modding available on other software? Anyone know? I've tried Googling but not come up with much.
 
 
Internaut
18:07 / 26.03.07
gourami, correct -- i shouldve had a prowl before posting such generalisations.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
19:10 / 26.03.07
Boboss> grant mentioned there being off-the-shelf software that has solutions similar to distributed moderation. Even if there aren't, though, it's something that's fairly easy to fudge. Moderator forum, vote threads. That's the answer on at least one other board I'm on. Normally, the moderator/staff forum is invisible to non-mods, but you could make it visible and limit its use to vote threads, limiting posting rights to moderators and making threads so that only the thread starter can post (and then only the opening post), but other mods could still post a vote.

That'd actually provide a kind of moderation log, too, which is something thnat's been requested here a couple of times.
 
 
grant
19:40 / 26.03.07
Actually, distributed moderation per se isn't really available anywhere that I've found. What I think, though, is that there are similar enough things (mods that make posts invisible, and mods that allow groups of users to vote on some quality of posts and possibly other things) that could allow someone with a slightly better grasp of php to create a dist/mod system.
 
 
grant
19:41 / 26.03.07
(To avoid confusion, in phpBB-speak a "mod" is a modification, a bit of code that changes the way the bulletin board works. It can also refer to a moderator.)
 
 
Spaniel
19:49 / 26.03.07
Ah, very interesting. I'm really not used to thinking outside of our little box when it comes to message boards, and non technical solutions for some reason never spring to mind.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
20:29 / 26.03.07
In a way, that's still a technical solution - it's not something that this board software, in its current form, would allow us to try out. You could have a voting thread, but you'd be relying on people to post no more than 'yes' or 'no', and that tends not to work very well.
 
 
HCE
00:30 / 27.03.07
Thank you keir, I really appreciate that.
 
  

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