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The madness of John Byrne

 
  

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electric monk
03:43 / 02.02.05
John Byrne wrote:
"1963" was an insult to all the craftsmen who actually worked to produce American comics in that period. I was appalled -- and deeply saddened -- by the number of "fans" who embraced the series as a "brilliant evocation" of the comics I'd read as a kid. I tried to tell myself the "success" of "1963" merely served to indicate how hungry fans were for "old fashioned" superhero comic books. So much so that they would embrace travesty as tribute. But eventually I came to see this as yet another harbinger of what was to come -- of the ever increasing legions who are embarassed to be caught reading superhero comics, and so would rather see them mocked (or changed beyond recognition, as with current M*****) than simply move on and make room for readers who are happy to enjoy them for what they are.

Does he enjoy anything not done by himself? I mean, really.

Fave bit of the day:

Jeff Johnson
Byrne Robotics Member

Do we have a list somewhere of films, etc. that JB would have us boycott?

A top 20 list would be good.


prev.'s right, you know. I dare someone to say something untoward about the current DP run.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
06:00 / 02.02.05
Apart from a few minor cosmetic changes, "my" Doom Patrol is the same characters and team that appeared in MY GREATEST ADVENTURE. The character who appears in the Spider-Man movies is not the character who appeared in AMAZING FANTASY (or any Spider-Man story since).

Funny how the CREATORS OF SPIDER-MAN AND DOOM PATROL disagree with your assesment, isn't it Byrne?
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
06:23 / 02.02.05
Byrning my suit, farewell James Artista:

John Byrne Wrote:
Apart from a few minor cosmetic changes, "my" Doom Patrol is the same characters and team that appeared in MY GREATEST ADVENTURE. The character who appears in the Spider-Man movies is not the character who appeared in AMAZING FANTASY (or any Spider-Man story since).

Sorry, but I can't let that one go. Stan Lee and Arnold Drake disagree with the above. The "orignal creators" you hold in such high esteem. Perhaps you should listen or read what they have to say, before you presume to channel them?

John Byrne wrote:
Silly question. Those changes took twenty years in the comic, and happened "organically". The changes in the movie happened because the director wanted to piss on the character to make it his.


Oh, come on, JB. How does resetting Doom Patrol and throwing out years of marvelous, weird and heartbreaking stories (damaging the history of the Teen Titans in the process, I might add) not amount to "pissing on" the characters to make them yours?

John Byrne wrote:
Stan Lee and Steve Ditko (and even Kirby, in his version) put some thought into this, and came up with a brilliant solution. Sam Raimi brought nothing to the table but his own overwhelming ego.


I thought the first initeration of the webline (which Lee may have retconned a few times in the early years) was a mixture of fishing line and glue?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
06:34 / 02.02.05
Maybe Mike-O's post to me was a Byrne-pastiche "joke", too! This is what JB was warning us about... we can't tell the travesty from the truth anymore. It's all M---'s fault
 
 
Haus of Mystery
08:41 / 02.02.05
If you don't like what I am doing with the Doom Patrol, you are, of course, free to not buy the book. Anyone is. But the question must then be posed, why would you buy any work of fiction? Especially serial fiction.

So, in essence, Byrne suggests if you don't buy his books, why buy any at all.

He's right to a degree - reading Byrne makes me want to stop reading comics altogether. I find it loathsome that he thinks Moore, Morrison et al have created a generation of comic readers who enjoy comics ironically. That includes myself, and I suspect many Barbelithers, and I take umbrage at this.
 
 
Aertho
12:27 / 02.02.05
Moore, Morrison et al have created a generation of comic readers who enjoy comics ironically.

Funny statement that. Forgive my density, but could you explain?

I'd venture that Flex Mentallo and Promethea BOTH examine that irony to some extent, and then shove us right through on to the otehr side. Planetary might still be rolling around in its "irony"...
 
 
Miss K
12:44 / 02.02.05
Moore, Morrison et al have created a generation of comic readers who enjoy comics ironically.

What a nobber.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
13:37 / 02.02.05
Chad, if you go and look at Byrne's comments on the ABC line you'll see what I mean.

Mss K - I sincerely hope that wasn't aimed at me.
 
 
Miss K
14:20 / 02.02.05
sorry MacGyver the sentiment was aimed at JB. I should have added "he thinks..." to the top of the quote.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
16:47 / 02.02.05
I think one of the MANY things JB's not getting a grasp on is the fact that you can, a la Moore, Morrison, etc... explore the ironic value of comics... it doesn't mean you hate 'em. In fact, in the case of those two Ms, I'd say it was an expression of their love for the form.

However, what with neither of them being JB himself, they're OBVIOUSLY both wrong, and have no grasp of comics at all. Because nobody other than JB understands, or even likes comics. Honestly, sometimes I bet he wonders why he bothers? It's like pearls before swine, I tells ya...
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
16:49 / 02.02.05
He just edited this bizzare rant before I could reply to it:

The mechanical webshooters also create mile upon mile of thick, chunky webbing, from what we are told are cassette-sized refills. In either case, the material is compacted in some way that reacts when exposed to air

+++

it is more believable that this is created inside the body than in some process that can be done with a science kit in a bedroom.

******

Back, here, to my point that none of the changes serve to make the movie better or easier to "translate". None. Not a one. Not even the good ones (like the bio-engineered spider -- which, by the way, you will notice most reviewers still refer to as a "radioactive spider").

The change to organic webbing comes from nothing more than Sam Raimi's ego. Let's be glad this clown didn't get asked to do the FF, or we'd have Reed unable to build a rocket (because Raimi can't) and Ben unable to pilot a jet (because Raimi can't).


Perhaps he realised that rami was never a scientist or a a pilot, but he WAS a student?
 
 
Haus of Mystery
18:03 / 02.02.05
'this clown'?

HE MADE THE EVIL DEAD YOU BEARDED BASTARD!!
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
19:37 / 02.02.05
The change to organic webbing comes from nothing more than Sam Raimi's ego.

huh?

personally, I wouldn't have made that change myself. But then, I can't make a movie, so that's irrelevant. I always assumed that the change to "organic" from "radioactive" was because now the big scare ISN'T radioactivity. It's genetic modification. The logic behind it, as far as I can tell, had nothing to do with Raimi's ego, more an attempt to make the story work. Cos, you see, these days, if they dosed the spider with radiation, all the audience would be going "but... but... it'd just DIE, surely?" Of COURSE the science is implausible... but it has to at least work in context, surely?

I'm guessing Raimi had more respect for the source material than JB does these days.
 
 
A beautiful tunnel of ghosts
20:00 / 02.02.05
Perhaps Byrne feels as strongly about the organic webshooters because they were a concept that Peter David introduced in Spider-Man 2099 - David has made an indirect contribution to the film and Byrne hasn't.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
20:15 / 02.02.05
Did Byrne not do a 'Spiderman: Year One' affair' that was universally derided for changing established continuity, and roundly ignored by everybody INCLUDING the editors. Jesus jumping fuck, the man's inability to see his own hypocrisy is astounding. He just seems to be a bile-machine spewing out at everything that isn't basically HIM. Or girls with 'Big, natural Boobies'...
 
 
Mr Tricks
20:29 / 02.02.05
heh,

I wonder if anyone will comment in JB having never made a film and is thus unqualified to offer an opinion of one. Isn't that one of his cornerstone arguements WRT anyone offering an opinion on his comics art?
 
 
Sean the frumious Bandersnatch
22:19 / 02.02.05
Moore, Morrison et al have created a generation of comic readers who enjoy comics ironically.

Funny statement that. Forgive my density, but could you explain?


Well, here's what Mister Byrne has to say about the matter-

"First and foremost is the eternal self-loathing of the
rabid fanboy, of course. The people who have the
drug addict mentality, and hate what they love, love
what they hate. They love to see the Morrisons, the
Innes, the Moores of the world tear down what has
gone before, as long as it is done in that
aren't-we-so-much-better-than-these-crappy-
comicbooks manner that for so long has
characterized so many of the writers this segment of
fandom consider 'hot'."

(Of Irony about Morrison and Odd Tales of Claremont)
 
 
Krug
22:39 / 02.02.05
Motherfuckers.
 
 
Billuccho!
22:56 / 02.02.05
Must... control... fist... of death...

If I ever see Byrne, I'll surely tell him off. Or trick him into thinking I'm a fan and then unraveling all of his hypocrisy and asshattery. But telling him off is quicker and cleaner.
 
 
A
02:14 / 03.02.05
Hmmm. Someone on the Byrne Forum linked to that blog that has a link to Barbelith on it. I wonder of any of the Byrne-kateers will click on it and find their way to this thread....
 
 
Sean the frumious Bandersnatch
04:40 / 03.02.05
I doubt it, or we would have heard about it by now. That thread is an old one that I found by typing "grant morrison" into their search engine to amuse myself.

HOWEVER, it isn't impossible for them to find out about us. One of them might just google, say, "John Byrne Doom Patrol" and this thread could come up. I can only imagine that a horrendous clusterfuck of a shitstorm would ensue, both on their boards and ours.

I don't think we should delete this thread to prevent that or anything, but I would suggest that we stick to making fun of Byrne and avoid saying anything about the others on that board (most of whom are probably decent people with a high tolerance for stupidity from their hero).
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
17:27 / 03.02.05
A while ago, a pre-reboot continuity DP reference made it into the pages of Identity Crisis. Byrne was incensed, and ranted about how even if they don't like it creators should stick to current continuity in the respective books, blah blah blah.

Recently, pre-birthright superman continuity made it into the art of Nightwing #102. And guess what they said...
 
 
Axolotl
18:53 / 03.02.05
When talking about people complaining about Byrne's version of Supes Byrne said:
"The truly disturbing aspect of this is that some of those people have been grumping and griping for more than 20 years! If there was ever a more glaring example of the need to "get a life"…!"
Pot and kettle anyone?
 
 
The Falcon
23:25 / 04.02.05
I love comics. But am embarassed by them precisely because of this turd and his ilk.
 
 
XXII:X:II = XXX
07:02 / 05.02.05
Byrne might have more of a point if he weren't talking about ironic writing done during a period in our culture where much that incorporates precedent is done so in an ironic fashion. There are many different definitions of what constitutes "fun," and I find it fun when some of the hokey tropes of yesteryear are paraded around as what they are. That doesn't mean you can't have a soft spot for them, too, but at least acknowledge that you're an adult with the capacity for far more nuanced stories than the ones the Byrne-Agains seem capable of handling.

Our post-9/11 world has been referred to as a "post-ironic" culture, but really it's just that the stale contexts have been replaced with fresher meanings, allowing for new types of stories, ie "Identity Crisis," "Avengers Disassembled," "Coup D'Etat," etc. (Yes, I'm only citing superhero stories; I have a feeling that if this "debate" were to involve anything but there'd be a long group "duhhhhh" from the JB Jaycees.) At this time, these stories are free to wear their metaphors on their sleeves and paint in bold strokes. When the metaphors again become dated, then they too will be subject to the same camp Byrneketeers loathe.

/+,
 
 
Sean the frumious Bandersnatch
08:06 / 05.02.05
You love comics, Duncan?

I hate comics, but not as much as I hate myself.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
10:33 / 05.02.05
It's worth noting that I'm moonandserpent. Heh. I'm in continual amazement at how much that post gets around.

-Kevin
moonandserpent.livejournal.com
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
14:52 / 05.02.05
From this thread

So if I write Superman as a wacky domestic comedy, then it wouldn't count as writing a superhero incorrectly? Pfui.

I don't know which is more amazing to me...the fact that the person wrote this thinking they were making a point, or that they are so utterly ignorant of the History of Superman (which they claim to revere). Superman WAS A WACKY DOMESTIC COMEDY THE WHOLE TIME MORT WIESINGER WAS THE EDITOR! Jesus GOD, why do you think Lois kept throwing herself out of windows, and they had Red Krytonite stories?

I get increasingly frustrated with fans who want ALL comics to be like Marvel comics in the 70's, faux serious with the Stan Lee angst minus the Stan Lee "winking at the reader" humor. The whole board over there seems to think that comics should have frozen in 1979 and just keep putting out the same stories.

The thread I point to itself is filled with willful misreadings, Byrne's pure blockheadedness, and the bane of all message boards...an arguement over what words actually mean.

If the internet gives these people a voice, I want it taken out in a massive EMP pulse.
 
 
Sean the frumious Bandersnatch
15:09 / 05.02.05
Hey, don't do that! I'm stuck there fighting on the ground, and I don't want to lose my internet connection!

Come on over and help me. It's amazing that I'm not banned yet, but I guess that's because nobody seems to be actually reading my posts. They're trying to turn it into a debate over whether or not the Demon really counts as a superhero comic (and yeah, that Sean King...that's me. No, really).
 
 
Bed Head
16:17 / 05.02.05
No shit.

I *really* wish you weren’t doing this, Sean. You’ve just gone from pointing and laughing at the monkeys, to throwing rocks at them. I see ‘David Schimmel’, whoever he is, knows who you are, where you've come from and what you *really* think, and still decided it wouldn't be a good idea to link back to here. But you used the same name for both boards, dude. Barbelith is only a google away.

I can’t see any good reason for what you’re doing. Leave ‘em alone.
 
 
Sean the frumious Bandersnatch
16:30 / 05.02.05
That went on a lot longer than I expected and I think I was a lot more condecending than I should have been. I really didn't want to fight with comic fans, and I should have left a lot sooner. Someone there called me out and said "Sean, I know why you're here and I know about Barbelith (but was kind enough not to mention it by name). You're not a bad guy, stop wasting your time." I thought, "yeah, now that you mention it, why am I wasting my time here?"

But Bed Head, you're right. This was stupid of me and I got wrapped up in the whole debate because I thought I was right. I was bored and in retrospect shouldn't have bothered. The same name thing was just because I filled out my registration on the same day that I was filling out an online application and wasn't paying attention.

Things that I learned?

-Someone there knows about this thread, so we should probably play it cool. I really don't think any good will happen if the more militant members of that board find out about what we're doing here, and I love my little Barbelith.

-That board goes off topic like crazy and nobody seems to read your posts. I don't think I'll be going back anytime soon.

-Matt Reed was right, I was a total hypocrite in that last post (the 'us' was Barbie and the 'them' was the Byrne guys. I'm not going crazy).

-I need to find something better to do with my free time.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
17:02 / 05.02.05
I correct Byrne on a FACTUAL POINT (IE, Grant didn't kill off The Chief [He didn't! He has Kipling save the brain, even though he never ties that plot point up], didn't kill Rita [Drake did], didn't strand Cliff for the purposes of other writers and ok yeaaah he did leave Larry in an unwritable position but fair's fair the character should never have come back from the dead if we're sticking to RESPECTING THE CREATORS) and someone tries to turn it into a matter of CHARACTERISATION?

WHAT. THE. FUCK?
 
 
Aertho
18:18 / 05.02.05
the bane of all message boards...an arguement over what words actually mean

Tower of Babel, top floor... ladies lingerie, negligee, and underoos.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
18:56 / 05.02.05
The way they all reacted to your letter of "hey, I didn't come here to piss on everything" should show us all the difference between people who want a discussion, and people who want to genuflect.

I like the whole "You lost" tone to the replies. Reminds me of Junior High. And not in a good way.
 
 
Sean the frumious Bandersnatch
05:04 / 06.02.05
I dunno, it seems that after I left most of the people started to think about what I was saying and had a more serious debate than when I was there.

Looking back on it now that I'm a bit more sober, I should have just put up the first post and left like I wasa planning to. All that I accomplished by trying to debate them on their own board was to spread bad blood and troll up their forum like quimper666 did to ours.
 
  

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