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Buffy as modern Mythology?

 
  

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alex supertramp
22:47 / 11.02.09
Yes, but I also said you can't compare apples and oranges. Jesus and Dionysous I never compared, you could say they are masks for different ideas, like Superman and hermes are masks for different ideas.
 
 
Princess
11:52 / 12.02.09
But you are, in effect, saying that apples and oranges contain the same pips. The people who are eating the fruit are telling you that the pips are different.
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
13:52 / 12.02.09
"Lucifer is believed by millions of people to be the literal source of all evil on Earth."

OK, so it's not about age, it's about amount of believers? One entity is more divine because there are more people who believe it's actually real?


No! jesus!

it's really amazing the way you keep trying to reduce everything we're saying to one variable, and then talking about how silly it is that we're using that variable to mark a distinction.

look, this has been already said several times, and I don't know why I'm bothering saying it again: Darth Vader is not a fucking god even inside the star wars mythos, let alone outside it. there are probably a dozen giant, glaring differences between these two "story characters", but even added up all together that is still not the point we, or at least I, am trying to get across.

I'm fine with your joseph cambellesque references to masks and ideas. I can understand or imagine how, for you and other people, there is no important difference between a modern character and an ancient god.

I can't understand how you can possibly read the posts in this thread and still think our entire argument is "my god is older than your god so it must be better!! nyer!"

it is possible that much of the belief that a god is greater than an icon comes from our expectation that it should be, just as it's possible that your inability to tell the difference comes from your own expectations.

it's condescending to assume that we haven't considered the idea or that our experiences to the contrary are illusions.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
17:45 / 12.02.09
Yes, but I also said you can't compare apples and oranges. Jesus and Dionysous I never compared, you could say they are masks for different ideas, like Superman and hermes are masks for different ideas.

Hmm. Alright, fair enough. We can move on to Buffy and Athena, or even Vader and Lucifer*, but I'm confident the result will be the same. You may be using them for the same thing (maybe. Who knows, you haven't yet told us what you're using them for, really) but that is a far cry from the claim that they represent the same thing.

On a side note: Alex, I know a lot of people are demanding your attention right now, so don't be afraid to take your time and respond to all the posts at your leisure. No need to feel rushed or pressured or anything.


*whose history is largely fictional as well, actually, in the sense that the idea of an antithesis of an eternally good god more or less came about when the Persian empire, largely zoroastrian, took over the jewish nation circa 200 BCE and the duality got all mixed in. Or so it has been explained to me by my Bible professor, at any rate. I admit I haven't done as much reading on the subject as I should. I mean, the Fall is described in the later books of Enoch, which I also haven't read (blush), and I don't know if names are named.
 
 
perceval
19:03 / 12.02.09

Of course Buffy is a modern Mythology, in the sense Campbell and Tolkien described, in the same way Star Wars and Batman are.

It's seven seasons even follow Campbell's Hero's Journey structure, with a little of the Feminist Heroine's Journey thrown in. It's one of the better modern examples.

Buffy, herself, is more a Solar figure than anything, the Resurrected God, right down to her last name. That's traditionally a male role, so finding a female deity to relate her to doesn't quite match, completely.
 
 
alex supertramp
20:58 / 12.02.09
I don't really have much to say, beyond the fact that I credit a lot of my thinking to Joseph Cambell's work. Also I wanted to post these two extremely similar sequences, from the Disney hercules movie, and from Superman the movie.

(I know the actual myths of hercules are very different from the movie, but still the similarity here is striking.)

hercules at zeus's temple


superman at the fortress of solitude
 
 
Princess
21:54 / 12.02.09
And they were both orphaned! And they both shocked their adoptive parents by displays of super strength! Oh my goodness, it does appear that they are indeed sprung from a similar set of ideas.

But what's that got to do with practice?

If I were to work with Hercules, I'd be getting madness, guilt, strength, forgiveness. He was breastfeed by the sky. He completed the tasks.

Superman gives me entirely different symbolism to work with.

But why so theoretical? We could talk about maybes until the cows drive their hoverboats home. But it's got fuck all to do with magic.

I think there are exceptions to the rule. I've known people form powerful, stunning relationships with Cthulu. And I'm open to the idea that someone, somewhere, is shaking with awe and love in the face of Batwoman's glory. But until I actually here people talking about actual, personal experience of pop-culture deity work, then I'm unconvinced.
 
 
Princess
23:08 / 12.02.09
Wow guys, that last post of mine is insane with poor English. Apologies.
 
 
perceval
08:53 / 13.02.09
Well, you sound less crazy (to normal folk) if you have a personal experience with Jesus than if you have one with Kal-El.

With that said, the Fairy Queen has, without my intending it, somehow become Luna Lovegood from Harry Potter. Specifically, she's Evanna Lynch's Luna. A little of the Moon Goddess must have gotten mixed up in there. It's a subconscious thing. Oh, and she especially likes the Beatles.

Of course, when Campbell and Tolkien were calling for the creation of modern Myths to serve the same purposes for the modern world that the classic myths did for the old, they weren't thinking in terms of ritual magic.
 
 
Quantum
15:12 / 13.02.09
wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Bough

(Sorry Haus, but surely you can see it's more polite to ref the 'paedia than this)
 
 
alex supertramp
19:45 / 14.02.09
"Well, you sound less crazy (to normal folk) if you have a personal experience with Jesus than if you have one with Kal-El."

To be fair, most "normal folk" would probably consider someone who has a direct experience with Jesus (ie Jesus talks to me!) to be pretty crazy as well.
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
00:00 / 15.02.09
To be fair, most "normal folk" would probably consider someone who has a direct experience with Jesus (ie "Jesus talks to me!") to be pretty crazy as well.

You're not from North America, are you?

Seriously: YOu'll raise less eyebrows stating that you have one-on-ones with Jesus than you do with Kal-El.

Unless you're Nicolas Cage. Then it's OK.
 
 
alex supertramp
00:35 / 15.02.09
Yeah, I'm from North America. Walk up to anyone in the street and say "God spoke to me" and see if they call you crazy or not. I dare you. Go ahead, I'll wait.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
02:07 / 15.02.09
dude I heard that shit all the time growing up in the south. It is by no means an uncommon thing.
 
 
Princess
18:41 / 15.02.09
There are people in my church who feel weird because God *doesn't* talk to them. This is in the UK mind.
 
 
alex supertramp
21:22 / 15.02.09
Fair enough, I guess I was just raised in a much more secular environment than I realized.
 
 
perceval
08:21 / 22.02.09
Well, I suppose it depends on what they say and how they say it. Saying you had a "spiritual experience" won't get you thought of as crazy in most American circles. Where I live, lighting candles and offering prayers to the Blessed Virgin is not uncommon. Of course, people also sacrifice goats and chickens around here.

Also, fictional characters are invoked by writers, poets, musicians, actors, artists, etc, all the time. A Muse is a deity, after all. If the character being brought forth also happens to embody a mythic concept like the classical gods and heroes, they represent love or resurrection or whatever other concept to the person using them at least as much as the classical versions do.
 
 
Princess
20:29 / 23.02.09
If you are bringing a character forth, then it is not deity work. If I write about a sacrificial solstice pig with superpowers, it doesn't mean I'm in touch with a porcine aspect of the Dying God archetype. It just means I made it up.

I know it's not a universally held principle, but I'm generally of the school of thought that magic is not just made up.

Not to sound condescending, but I like my practice a little wilder than "I decided magic should work like this and I made a story that was cool and I decided it was real and so now I'm believing really really hard!".

Magic should feel, I don't know, magical? I should feel awe, regularly. I should be getting knowledge from things infinitely deeper than myself.

If magic is just "made up" then it shouldn't be being made up by me. Because that is LARPing, and LARPing is not my style.
 
 
perceval
22:21 / 26.02.09
Ever read Sylvie and Bruno by Lewis Carroll? It's not as well known as the more accessable Alice books, but is, in it's themes, a follow up to them. It's first line, "Is all our life, then, but a dream?" is a variation of the famous final line of Through the Looking Glass, "Life, what is it but a dream?" The way Carroll describes how one enters what he calls the Fairyland is very much like the experiences people describe as the results from successful ceremonial magic. There seems to be something about Oxford...

Robert E. Howard wrote, when he was writing the Conan stories, that he felt the character's presence, the barbarian telling him what to write. So, yes, creators have invoked beings, travelled to other places, etc. They just achieved these states in a different way. This is something I'm sure people who do both creative writing and celemonial magic, like Grant Morrison and Alan Moore, are familiar with.

Myths are, after all, stories. They are stories that reach something deep within us, something hardwired into us, some higher truth, whether or not they literally happened. The folks looking for wreckage of a boat on mountains in an attempt to prove the Noah myth are missing the entire point. It's the higher truth behind the myth that's important.

So, whether a myth was created by a modern writer for modern people, or by ancient tribes sitting around a camp fire for a society that lived and died thousands of years ago, it's still, really, the same thing. We just happen to know more about Tolkien, who he was and his thoughts, then we do about Homer and whoever wrote Genesis.

Sure, Inanna was the original Goddess Descending into the Underworld, but we know that story better, today, as Alice. Most of us didn't know of Inanna until we looked into that Mythology when we were older, usually after we'd become familiar with some of the variations of her Myth, such as Ishtar and Persephone. Alice, most of us have known all our lives, from when we were old enough to remember anything. So, who's the Goddess Descending into the Underworld for our modern culture, Inanna or Alice? Recent variations of that Myth, such as Spirited Away, Mirrormask, and Pan's Labyrinth, have drawn from Alice rather than Inanna.

Granted, it's my Crowley and R.A.W. influences, but I don't believe in setting up strict rules for Chaos Magic, of all things, that you can invoke from THIS Mythology but not THAT one, that it MUST be based on stories that are at least a couple of thousand years old. If one can't invoke Carroll's mythology, then one, I would think, can't invoke Ishtar, either, since she wasn't any more the original Goddess Descending than Alice was.

Alice would be an innocent Maiden form of the Goddess that speaks like a cultured English schoolgirl and asks all sorts of questions, sorting out puzzles. You don't have a lot of the issues invoking another form of that Archetype might bring. Kal-El, likewise, prevents certain things that might crop up with some other Sun God, but I imagine you'd feel the weight of the world, so much responsibility for it. Christ is probably still the safest Sun God to invoke.

But it all comes down to which incarnations of these Archetypes you relate to. A more familiar one to you, personally, might actually produce better results than one that is, to you personally, more distant and obscure.

Also, something important to remember: Whatever deity representing an Archetype you use, it's symbolizing a concept. These are ALL symbols that represent something, not the thing, itself. These symbols I'm typing right now using a computer are representations of thoughts, not the entire being of the thought, itself. It's all about using symbols we've created to communicate something that can't truly be expressed entirely, through symbols we've created and learned. That's what Myths are. That's what deities are. It's using symbols to represent something in a way we can understand and share it.

Christians invoke a Sun God that was based on a person that likely existed, though he may not have done everything the Mythology ascribes to him. Buddhists invoke a Mythology based on an even older person that likely existed, but may not have done everything the Myths say. Rastafarians build their Mythology around a 20th Century Emperor of Ethiopia. Alice, so we understand, was a story created to entertain three sisters on a riverboat journey, based, in part, on ancient Myths, and in part on a person that existed that we can be certain didn't actually do all those things the story says she did.



She looks so the Fairy Queen in that photo that she's become in our culture's Collective Subconscious. Alice IS that to us, now, just as Jesus IS Christ, the Sun God, to those of us raised in that culture. So, modern storytellers base their versions of the Goddess Descending story on the Alice Myth, as that's a more familiar symbol, a representation of a concept, than the much older ones, now.

And now we turn to Chapter IX of Through the Looking Glass...

To the Looking-Glass world it was Alice that said
"I've a sceptre in hand, I've a crown on my head.
Let the Looking-Glass creatures, whatever they be
Come dine with the Red Queen, the White Queen and Me!"

Then fill up the glasses as quick as you can,
And sprinkle the table with buttons and bran:
Put cats in the coffee, and mice in the tea--
And welcome Queen Alice with thirty-times-three!

"O Looking-Glass creatures," quoth Alice, "draw near!
'Tis an honour to see me, a favour to hear:
'Tis a privilege high to have dinner and tea
Along with the Red Queen, the White Queen, and Me!"

Then fill up the glasses with treacle and ink,
Or anything else that is pleasant to drink:
Mix sand with the cider, and wool with the wine--
And welcome Queen Alice with ninety-times-nine!
 
 
darth daddy
22:47 / 27.02.09
Perceval...you totally rock....
 
 
alex supertramp
05:54 / 01.03.09
Nice post, Perceval.
 
 
Princess
21:13 / 01.03.09
I'm not a chaos magician. I'm not trying to put rules onto Chaos Magic.

There's a lot of interesting stuff in your post Perceval,and it would have been nice to talk. But I'm moving all my magic speak over to Liminal Nation as the Temple is starting to melt my brain in unconstructive ways.

Parting shot though (sorry, it's terribly rude, I know) but Kal-El has more burden than Christ? Christ who died for the world, is constantly crucified for other's transgression, that Christ?

And safe? Christ is *not* a safe deity. Christians are, hypothetically, crucified with Christ. Become Christ. Stigmata much?

He doesn't even pretend to be safe. His central rites are blood drinking and dismemberment. Baptism isn't just cleaning, it's a spiritual death. Christianity has got powerful, unsafe and destructive currents running through it. It is a serious ego-fuck.

Enjoy!
 
 
alex supertramp
23:24 / 01.03.09
Pretty sure Superman died pretty brutally, but w/e, it's apparent you're not interested in a discussion. If you were you'd respond to some of Perceval's points, instead of just waving them off.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:59 / 01.03.09
And Jesus may have risen again, but did he have a number of replacements? A black Iron Man Jesus, an evil cyborg Jesus, a Dirty Harry Jesus and a kid Jesus? Did he balls.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
04:14 / 02.03.09
Nor did he have an entire menagerie of super-pets! Oh, but then there's that whole continuity thing. But you're right, Kal-el is much more hardcore than Christ.

Alex, the manatee did in fact respond. Your inability to notice things like this is a large reason why no one wants to talk about this subject with you anymore.
 
 
alex supertramp
06:40 / 02.03.09
bla bla bla, jump at any chance to hate on me, bla. i was just making the point that yes, jesus was crucified, yes, superman died bludgeoned to death by doomsday. they both died brutal deaths, the crucification thing isnt a legitimate difference.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
14:37 / 02.03.09
And of course, neither is the 2000 years of cultural, institutional, political, religious and aesthetic history attached to Haysoos. Nooooo, not at all. It's all chaos, innit?
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
15:46 / 02.03.09
i was just making the point that yes, jesus was crucified, yes, superman died bludgeoned to death by doomsday. they both died brutal deaths, the crucification thing isnt a legitimate difference.

Even if that were true, for god's sake man, who said it was? Who made the point you are referencing here? In all honesty, is that what you got out of the manatee's post? How are we to have a discussion with you when you don't respond to what people actually say?
 
 
alex supertramp
20:25 / 02.03.09
"Kal-El has more burden than Christ? Christ who died for the world, is constantly crucified for other's transgression, that Christ?"

?????? Read more closely please.
 
 
alex supertramp
20:35 / 02.03.09
"Alex, the manatee did in fact respond. Your inability to notice things like this is a large reason why no one wants to talk about this subject with you anymore."

And did he respond? All I saw was a response to a comparison between Kal El and Christ. Read Perceval's post again, this time a bit more closely, and tell me if you think that was the only point he made.
 
 
alex supertramp
21:18 / 02.03.09
"And of course, neither is the 2000 years of cultural, institutional, political, religious and aesthetic history attached to Haysoos. Nooooo, not at all. It's all chaos, innit?"

All bickering aside, this is an interesting point you make, Closing Time. I do think 2000 years of "cultural, institutional, political, religious and aesthetic history" definitely adds dimensions to Jesus, perhaps making him more "real" (please forgive the term).

With Superman, no, he hasn't been shaped by 2000 years of cultural influences. however, one could argue that since Superman's inception in 1938, he's been through quite a lot of cultural influences as well. Jesus Christ doesn't have monthly stories published about him for 80 consecutive years, does he? Surely Superman has seen quite a lot of aesthetic history himself, simply by virtue of the fact that publishing monthly stories about him has been possible, whereas the printing press wasn't around for good old Jesus.

I think of it as kind of forced evolution; nobody had to write monthly, fresh stories about Jesus to keep the character alive. Superman, if he was to survive, needed new stories monthly, which has sped up his evolution. One could argue that 2000 years has been equalled in 80 years of forced evolution.

If one were to judge Superman and Jesus (not suggesting that you are) by the sheer amount of gospel starring these respective characters, surely there is much more reading material and myths for Superman than Jesus.

I'd like to just remind everyone here that these are just ideas I'm throwing out there. I don't dogmatically believe in them one way or the other.
 
 
alex supertramp
23:10 / 02.03.09
Sorry, I meant 70 years.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
01:07 / 03.03.09
Alex. Buddy. You said:

it's apparent you're not interested in a discussion. If you were you'd respond to some of Perceval's points, instead of just waving them off.

First off, of course it's fucking apparent, as he explicitly stated he did not want to engage. Nevertheless ze did respond to some of them, namely Kal-el's burden compared to that of Christ as well as Christ being "the safest sun-god" to invoke.

There. See? He responded to some of Perceval's points. Did you not notice that the first time you read it? Or did you just not bother to actually read what ze wrote? Which is it, little buddy? I'm pretty sure I know which it is.

He said:

Kal-El has more burden than Christ? Christ who died for the world, is constantly crucified for other's transgression, that Christ?

And safe? Christ is *not* a safe deity. Christians are, hypothetically, crucified with Christ. Become Christ. Stigmata much?

He doesn't even pretend to be safe. His central rites are blood drinking and dismemberment. Baptism isn't just cleaning, it's a spiritual death. Christianity has got powerful, unsafe and destructive currents running through it. It is a serious ego-fuck.


To which you responded that "Superman died brutally too", as if this were somehow a coherent or relevant argument. If you seriously think this is an acceptable level of reading and responding, then I am done with you. Your continual inability to grasp the basics of an informed discussion leads me to believe, as it has so many others from this thread, that there is nothing of value to be gained by any further engagement with you. God forbid you pull this kind of shit on LN.
 
 
alex supertramp
01:24 / 03.03.09
Okay, TPB. If by "some of Perceval's points", you mean "one of Perceval's many points", then yes, I agree. Manatee did respond to one of Perceval's points, great detective work, TPB!
 
 
alex supertramp
01:31 / 03.03.09
Let me add this here:

I'm no longer interested in the pissing matches you keep trying to drag me back into, TPB. I put up a new post, moving onward, for that exact reason. You seem to be uninterested in actually discussing what we've got here on the thread. Instead, you want to bicker about this or that. Grow up, buddy, I don't have time in my life for the kind of petty engagements you so sorely want. This is the last time I will be addressing the "wah wah wah" game, all other posts will be about the topic at hand. If you want to talk about something related to the topic, I'll happily respond. Otherwise, I'm just going to ignore you.
 
  

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