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Buffy as modern Mythology?

 
  

Page: 123(4)56789... 11

 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:47 / 28.01.09
I feel I must own up to the Invisibles bit, but I never complained about block capitals. More power to them. Although back in my day writers tended not to use them. Depending on what they were writing, I suppose. But. But. But.
 
 
alex supertramp
21:48 / 28.01.09
Whatever, I'll get off your board where you attack people who disagree with the majority. Sorry, my mistake. Bye. No need to start a witch hunt b/c you think I'm similar to someone else who's posted here. You've all made yourselves clear, I have no valid points and no valid experience these points originate from. There is no logic to anything I say.
 
 
alex supertramp
21:52 / 28.01.09
"You've repeatedly refused to offer any background into your practice or why you feel Yoda and Odin are, in your opinion, pretty much the same type of thing."

This is completely unfair. Go back and read what I said.
 
 
alex supertramp
21:53 / 28.01.09
It just makes me sick that you can't take your focus off me for one second and look at the actual things I'm saying. To paraphrase Gypsy, why am I even posting here? Goodbye, cruel Barbelith.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:58 / 28.01.09
I don't know. I posted quite a big thing on the ontological variance of the condition of being between e.g. Odin and Yoda, but it didn't seem to make much of a difference. Nobody really travels anywhere, do they? I feel a bit sick in my heart.
 
 
alex supertramp
22:05 / 28.01.09
I enjoyed your post haus, for the record, and a lot of other ones too. If (some) people continue to post interesting thoughts instead of thoughts on how what I'm saying is derivative of The Invisibles and "Pop Culture Magic", (whatever that even is), I'll keep reading.

But MAN, I am just not interested in reading anymore about how everything I say is wrong because I haven't listed enough experience! hopefully, one day this thread will finally be able to move beyond that. Until then I think I'll just silently read posts, which is apparently what everyone wants anyways.
 
 
jentacular dreams
22:31 / 28.01.09
Go back and read what I said.

Which part? You say you've already substantiated your beliefs in thread, yet you quote everyone's posts but your own. If you have covered this already a little more effort to highlight the points in question would go a long way. At the moment your short temper just makes you seem insecure about your experiences and actually makes it harder to take your POV seriously.
 
 
alex supertramp
23:52 / 28.01.09
"If you have covered this already a little more effort to highlight the points in question would go a long way."

I've covered it at great lengths. I don't feel like talking about it anymore (see pages 1-4, they're filled with a dissection of my experiences, each time I add more for you). Its obviously not conducive to a constructive discussion. I'm not sure why this is still a topic (me) people are interested in, when this thread is called "do you think Buffy and Angel can be modern mythologies".
 
 
alex supertramp
23:54 / 28.01.09
Flame on!
 
 
alex supertramp
23:55 / 28.01.09
WOOOSh
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
01:07 / 29.01.09
I've covered it at great lengths... ... (see pages 1-4, they're filled with a dissection of my experiences, each time I add more for you).

One would think, then, that it would not be difficult to shut us up by pointing to an instance of this occurring. I mean, honestly, a dissection? Is that really how you think this has gone down? Any time you're willing to really do this, we'll be ready to listen.

Anyway. Moving on.

The second position - that working with "established entities" is more real or authentic, seems to presuppose a relation between signs and signifieds that isn't arbitrary, but predicated on a logical or causal association between the two. In this position gods and demons etc are real, mind-independent objects that can be directly apprehended without need for the detour around the realm of concepts.

I know someone has addressed this recently, but I wonder if a halfway point between the two positions is that the relation between signs and signified isn't casual or arbitrary but synchronous, in the sense of Leibniz's parallelism. That kind of compromising was sort of his bag.

Granted, that sort of presupposes an already existing "harmony" of sorts, planned or otherwise. And it should be noted that I know next to nothing about semiotics.
 
 
alex supertramp
01:35 / 29.01.09
Why don't you tell me some of your experiences, Teenage Billionaire Psychopath?
 
 
alex supertramp
02:24 / 29.01.09
See pages 1-4:

"I guess I'd say I find Yoda outside of the movies in the sense that I communicate with him in meditative states.

You DO NOT get to read about my personal relationships with Gods, or pop culture gods such as the Guardians of the Universe, Yoda, Buddha, and other deities I made up.

I thought that listing some of the deities I work with, "Guardians of the Universe, Yoda, Buddha", was enough to show you I've had subjective experiences of my own with entities, both ancient and modern.

My model or framework for understanding them is NOT based from an outside perspective, I've had my own experiences.

I just feel the way you're demanding I list them is not only innappropriate, but really unnecessary. I feel that there is no objective experience, only subjective ones. Why then is my personal experience relevant at all? I agree with treekisser when he/she says (except for the douching part, lol):

I've told you I have had experiences with ancient and modern entities, that's all I'm going to say, and I've been all but forced to say that.

I really don't notice a difference between Yoda and Buddha when I work with them (separately of course, everyone knows Yoda has been avoiding Buddha at parties for years), in terms of their validity as entities.

I've backed up my opinions. I've worked with your ancient and your new entities. I don't notice much of a difference between them. Yodia's 'fictional' history seems as real to me as Zeus's 'fictional' history. Although people have been perhaps adding or tweaking Zeus's history over an extremely long time, it doesn't make a difference to me when communicating to Yoda versus Zeus. Yoda still sounds, or feels, as real to me, despite relative youth compared to Zeus. Yoda has his own thousand years of history. The volume of canon and myth available to read and meditate on is probably larger for Yoda than for Zeus, although Zeus is in a LOT of myths.

I agree with pretty much everything you've said Quantum. I wouldn't really worship Willy Wonka. At least, I haven't found a reason to yet. Does Tim Burton worship Willy Wonka when he remakes it? I might, if I wrote the script."
 
 
alex supertramp
02:26 / 29.01.09
Those are my experiences, that and nothing more. When I communicate with Buddha, it feels like the entity I'm communicating with is as real as Yoda when I communicate with him.

I think you'll find there's a lot of volume of text there talking only about me. Why don't we see some other people produce the same block of text, I don't have anything else to give you.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
08:05 / 29.01.09
What's up with the "I'm leaving cruel Barbelith" and then posting not once, not twice, but 9 - NINE - times after that, essentially repeating your refusal to tell anything else? We have other places for that kind of stuff.
 
 
Quantum
08:21 / 29.01.09
Supertramp, since I last posted you've posted 17 times out of 29 posts, well over half. Don't you feel you might be monopolising the conversation, irrespective of whether or not you're getting bullied? Do you think that makes you seem a) strong willed or b)shrill, and do you think it implies you like to read more or write more?
"I'm a writer" Well, MR ALLCAPS, 'We're all writers here, Daisy.' But we also read. Try reading the thread more carefully, and just to be excruciatingly clear, I DO NOT WANT to hear about your personal experiences if you don't want to share them, stop going on about it. If we DO NOT GET TO hear about them, fine, get over it. Right now, to me, in my humble, you come across like Ziggy in the bar in first episode of season 2 of the Wire (a trickster deity I think you'll find, with a dash of holy fool). If you haven't seen it, he gets his cock out for attention and generally acts like an arse.
Lastly, I agree with pretty much everything you've said Quantum. I wouldn't really worship Willy Wonka. I sort of made the point that some entities were more suitable to point out that Yoda seems less suitable than others, as he's a muppet/cgi creation from a franchise that includes midichlorians.


Anyway, I was nodding my head when I read Trouser's post about what feels right at that moment as that is how I do a lot of impromptu magic, from an intuitive or subconscious feeling of what is appropriate. I hesitate to say right-brained but you know what I mean, intuitive motivation rather than rational. I've heard it called calling, pinging, following and a dozen other things in different contexts, and to me it's a little like hearing a tune instead of some noise, it's just right in a sense that's difficult to define.
Like love, which ties into I prefer actually, to speak of these relationships as though they were love affairs because that seems to me (from my second-hand understanding of this sort of thing) the best way to approach it.

Emergence is probably an excellent benchmark on the validity of an entity actually IMO, see XK's post The barometer/litmus test for me was that sense of Presence and agency on the other side of the relationship. which is another way of expressing "wholeness" and supervenience (downward causation) from the definition of emergence Closer posted.
A lot like AI really. A simple program can seem like a person, but it quickly becomes obvious it doesn't really have voliton or understanding. I guess I'm assuming some sort of unconscious magical Turing test. -"Guardians of the Galaxy! Hear my Plea!"
-"Your polite style is very nice. Why do you believe I Hear my Plea?"

One more thing about BuffyGods. Entities derived from books like Chthulhu put a lot of the visualisation into the reader's court, when you're reading about something it looks a certain way in your mind that you contribute a lot to. Entities based on TV characters are already visually set, and more often than not associated with a real person (Harmony is Mercedes McNab, Yoda is a muppet with the voice of Frank Oz) which is a different kettle of fish. I mean, if Harmony is a goddess is Mercedes her Horse? Or her avatar, or manifestation on earth or something? How do we reconcile the actions of real-life free-willed person Frank Oz with the action of Yoda? Who's got the volition when he speaks, Frank, Master Yoda, the scriptwriter or George Lucas who gets the final say?
 
 
trouser the trouserian
09:36 / 29.01.09
I've also found that fictional entities tend to be limited by the parameters of the fictional works they have been extracted from. It's difficult to have a relationship with Cthulhu, as a raw elemental force, without Lovecraft and his weird hang-ups getting in the way on some level. That's really what made me move away from that stuff. I felt that I was definitely connecting to *something* through the fictional mask, but that mask was itself limiting my ability to access what was behind it. I've found the Vodou lens on the mysteries a lot more flexible as, for one thing, there isn't a core text that demarcates the operating parameters of entity.

Gypsy

This notion - that fictional entities are limited by the parameters of the productions that they are extracted from - is a criticism I've seen levied time and time again in the debate that's been ongoing around these issues. I'd have to say that from my own long experience, of working with Cthulhu and other Lovecraftian creations, I've not found this to be the case - at least I've never felt constrained by Lovecraft's limits; rather, it was a starting point. And Lovecraft is, when it comes down to it, highly ambiguous regarding the GOOs - unlike, for example, August Derleth, who tries to force-fit them into some kind of four-elements schema.

Be that as it may, when you say I've found the Vodou lens on the mysteries a lot more flexible as, for one thing, there isn't a core text that demarcates the operating parameters of entity. this is a good point - and relates to my earlier response to Haus regarding the issue of canonicity - and in a wider sense, the perhaps uneasy relationship we have between text and other elements of a practice - something I was trying to get to grips with here and here .

So my first question, for anyone who wants to take it up is - is "fiction" a special case as opposed to other textual productions? If, as Gypsy says fictional entities tend to be limited by the parameters of the fictional works they have been extracted from why is this not the case, with, say the depiction of Odin in the Prose Edda, or for that matter, Lalita in the Saundaryalahari?

and Quants - this is not entirely unrelated to the above....

Entities derived from books like Chthulhu put a lot of the visualisation into the reader's court

True. But I see this rather as a strength - or rather, an opportunity.

when you're reading about something it looks a certain way in your mind that you contribute a lot to.

Also true. Is this a problem, though?

Entities based on TV characters are already visually set

Which is also the case for a lot of historical entities. Within the broad corpus of tantric approaches out of which comes much of my current practice, there are strict iconographic rules regarding the depiction of deities - in fact there are entire books written for sculptors and artists which give exhaustive details regarding the visual representation of Ganesha or Ardhanarishwara, for example. There are innumerable 'set' visualisations too. I like using them, but I don't feel constrained by them.
 
 
Quantum
10:57 / 29.01.09
True. But I see this rather as a strength - or rather, an opportunity.

Yeah- I was holding up textual based entities as superior to TV because of that. Definitely a strength, I'd rather work with Sherlock Holmes the Conan Doyle creation than Downey Jr. as Sherlock Holmes.

Entities based on TV characters are already visually set
Which is also the case for a lot of historical entities.

And I believe the icons of saints were pretty set too although I'm fuzzy on it, e.g St Christopher is in a set posture with a staff and baby Jesus on his back (and there's plenty of Cthulhu pics out there of course)
I'm more concerned with characters portrayed by *actors*, not so much that the iconography is a set visual style that constrains you but that TV pop culture characters like Buffy literally look a certain way, i.e. like Sara Michelle Gellar, in a way that Zeus or Nyarlathotep don't.

Because they are principally products of an audiovisual medium, Harmony or Yoda are much more fixed than textual entities, and so involve less interaction from you, which I believe makes the relationship shallower (just my opinion).
I guess it's my prejudice about films from books coming through, and my dislike of dogma. When someone makes a film of e.g. Phillip Pullman, it gains accessibility but loses flexibility- everyone can see it but it looks the same to everyone.
I'm starting to think that I treat myths and religions like texts but contemporary TV and movies as not-texts, due to the reduced element of interpretation. In My Mind audiovisual characters come pre-digested, which irks me, and I think perhaps I'm influenced by a desire to exclude TV from the sacred, just because as a bibliophile I so strongly associate it with the profane.
Which would be silly really, are books and TV so different? Does the difference matter? I'm going to have a think on my motives, we shouldn't believe things just because we want to, eh.
 
 
Quantum
11:02 / 29.01.09
My kneejerk reaction is that Harmony/Yoda is not just the same as Buddha/Jesus as an object of worship or entity to interact with. It makes me want to mock, because where do you stop? Can I be taken seriously if I worship a minion from Buffy? Or a particular stormtrooper? or a lego model of the Deathstar? If I worship a small plastic model Boba Fett*, is that really just as valid as a devout Catholic worshipping in church?


*"Don't hurt the Fett. That's not something you come back from."
 
 
trouser the trouserian
11:06 / 29.01.09
Entities based on TV characters are already visually set, and more often than not associated with a real person (Harmony is Mercedes McNab, Yoda is a muppet with the voice of Frank Oz) which is a different kettle of fish. I mean, if Harmony is a goddess is Mercedes her Horse? Or her avatar, or manifestation on earth or something? How do we reconcile the actions of real-life free-willed person Frank Oz with the action of Yoda? Who's got the volition when he speaks, Frank, Master Yoda, the scriptwriter or George Lucas who gets the final say?

Does it matter?

When I drink coffee, what's uppermost in my mind is the taste, the smell, the heat - and not the elements that make up that experience, or whether its fairtrade or not - although that might come afterwards. Watching Battlestar Galactica the other night, I find myself caught up in the tensions and sorrow the people on the screen are so successfully enacting. I look at my partner - who's feeling it too - and we hold hands. Afterwards, I might say, well that's a good script, or James Olmo is a good actor.

I'm in a field with about fifty other pagans, watching a dear friend possessed by a new-yet-ageless entity who we are slowly coming to share a tentative understanding of as "Queer Spirit". In the midst of what seems to me to be a multitude of voices, I recognise a brief burst of Crowley's hymn to Pan. At the same moment, I realise that I've been crying, tears pouring down my face, for the last half-hour or so. I see my friend, who I've known, shared griefs and joys with for twenty years, helping give birth to something which is drawn from our collective articulation of joy, grief, exultation and rage, and is, inexplicably, magically, more than this. I remember the discussion in the tent earlier in the day and what that felt like too. I see myself reflected there, in the painted, feathered, masked creature shimmering in the fire's light. All these things help make up the moment. Afterwards, perhaps, there will be more discussion, more dissention - some griping. But for now, I'm feeling Emergence.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
12:01 / 29.01.09
Quants

I guess it's my prejudice about films from books coming through, and my dislike of dogma. When someone makes a film of e.g. Phillip Pullman, it gains accessibility but loses flexibility- everyone can see it but it looks the same to everyone.

Are you sure it looks the same to everyone?

I'm starting to think that I treat myths and religions like texts but contemporary TV and movies as not-texts, due to the reduced element of interpretation. In My Mind audiovisual characters come pre-digested, which irks me, and I think perhaps I'm influenced by a desire to exclude TV from the sacred, just because as a bibliophile I so strongly associate it with the profane.

Well that's one reason I mentioned the film Jai Santoshi Ma and its relationship to the rise of Santoshima as a pan-Indian goddess, earlier.

I was a Treadwells, not long ago, listening to Christina Oakley speak eloquently and movingly about her religious beliefs. Right at the start of the event, she read from a poem which she felt, articulated a lot of what she was trying to put across to the audience. What struck me particularly was that it wasn't a poem by Crowley, Yeats, Graves, or any of the usual "magical" poets, but Arthur Rimbaud. I don't remember anyone questioning this - saying well, Rimbaud isn't a magical poet. Yet, sometimes I wonder if there's an undercurrent, in modern magic which seeks to make a distinction between sacred and "profane", between magical and non-magical. It's a distinction I've worked hard to erode in my own life and practice, in order to experience the eternal surprise and joy of the nondual in each passing moment.
 
 
trouble at bill
12:05 / 29.01.09
A very quick throw in: if I wanted to defend the 'fictional deities are valid' line, I could question how much natural, intuitive connection an urban-dweller from the twenty-first century like me can ever have with a Norse-deity-invoked-by-berserk-seafaring-Viking-pillagers, or whatever. Without getting in any way racist about it, mind. Just that Yoda was part of my childhood. Odin wasn't. Creatures like John Constantine are part of my experience of London. Zeus isn't. It's all very well saying Zeus has a longer history but as a non-ancient-Greek-peasant-farmer, I'm not sure how much I can relate to it. Even if by working with Constantine I end up with a connection to a universal Trickster archetype some might say it's just a more logical way for one such as me to start off, and possibly to continue?
 
 
trouser the trouserian
13:56 / 29.01.09
bill
some might say it's just a more logical way for one such as me to start off, and possibly to continue?

This is one of Taylor Ellwood's points - see this post for example - and in extension, his book Pop Culture Magic which has been thrown around here as though association with it is some kind of badge of infamy.

The problem with it of course, is that "logical" can only take you so far when it comes to magic. If someone want to take up this position for themselves, I've no problem with that, but using it as a rod against other people who don't work that way - as though it were a weakness on their part, is for me, troubling. Its interesting that this whole debate, which has been rumbling on for some years now, gets quickly polarised into two camps - clueless newbies fresh from reading the Invisibles vs dedicated magicians seeking depth & mystery or, from the other side, creative minds vs stuffy traditionalists (one of Taylor's phrases). Its no wonder then, that feathers get ruffled occasionally, as to some extent, either position seems to me to be heavily invested in negating those in the opposing camp.

Speaking from experience doesn't really help either - or at least has limitations, I think.

Say I was, as an example, to assert that I tried polygamy for a few years, but found it ultimately unsatisfying and - out of this - had come to the conclusion that in my experience the best way to have a relationship is monogamy, as its only with monogamy that you can achieve a degree of richness and depth that I never found with polygamous triplings etc. And that I'd met a lot of eager young things (fresh from reading the Invisibles etc.) who obviously thought it was cool etc., or had tried monogamy occasionally but hadn't really developed it in the way that all the monogamous people I knew had - and furthermore, that until you'd been in a committed relationship for at least ten years, your opinion can't possibly count - well, round here, I'd be flame-mailed to a crisp wouldn't I? And rightly so.
 
 
alex supertramp
17:45 / 29.01.09
"I sort of made the point that some entities were more suitable to point out that Yoda seems less suitable than others, as he's a muppet/cgi creation from a franchise that includes midichlorians.""

I don't know, I see Yoda as more suitable than other pop culture characters. See my comparison between the qualities of "deities" and the qualities of Yoda.
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
18:26 / 29.01.09
O/T:
Tuna/TBP - I believe you're right: Jokesuit.

Now... Is it Granny or Flyboy. Flyboy pretending to be Granny or Granny pretending to be Stallion. It all gets so confusing and is way over my head I'm afraid.

But I have to say that it's sparked the liveliest exchange in the temple in a long while. Maybe "Agressive Negativity" to provoke conversation?
B/T/T

Maybe it's deserving of another thread (If there isn't one already) but what if we take into account the idea or possibility of a Global Brain, or Universal Consiousness/Memory or Noƶsphere? The sum of all thoughts throughout history?

If it's possible to tap into the thought/energy created by people who are currently focused on recent pop culture icons, then it stands to reason that the thought/energy spent on the "Ancient" or "Established" God/esses may still exist and forms a much larger source to tap into, so to speak.

While A.S. states that his contact with Yoda is as every bit as "real" in his experience as his contact with the Buddha, the fact is that Yoda is merely a watered down construct formed in G. Lucas' mind which borrows from Zen Buddhism crossed with a sort of Shaolin monk mentality thrown into the mix.

While George may have spent Days, months, even years fleshing out the Yoda character based on his understanding of the inspirational material that gave birth to his idea, the Original sources have actually been tempered and refined over much longer periods of time and posess a richer and broader "spirit" to commune with.

On a brief look at Yoda's Wiki page, Lucas "opted to have many details of the character's life history remain unknown". He wanted as much as possible about Yoda to remain Mysterious. The Buddha, on the other hand, has a full life story of his trials and suffering and eventual enlightenment which we as humans can plug into easier and relate to our own lives.

Moreso than a green alien dwarf who speaks funny and can kick serious ass.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:13 / 29.01.09
You people are really bad at identifying jokesuits, you know.
 
 
Ticker
19:50 / 29.01.09
^this.

Plus Quants your Trio ref brought the mad lulz.
 
 
alex supertramp
19:55 / 29.01.09
"the Original sources have actually been tempered and refined over much longer periods of time and posess a richer and broader "spirit" to commune with.

On a brief look at Yoda's Wiki page, Lucas "opted to have many details of the character's life history remain unknown"

While this last bit is true, much of Yoda's life story is now known through non-Lucas written (although still canon!) stories. The wikipedia page doesn't go into much detail, however this page on Yoda does.

Little off topic.

If a "joke suit" is Barbelith code for "Let's hunt witches", no I have never posted on Barbelith under a different name.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
02:46 / 30.01.09
Tuna/TBP - I believe you're right: Jokesuit.

For the record, I was never suggesting that.

While George may have spent Days, months, even years fleshing out the Yoda character based on his understanding of the inspirational material that gave birth to his idea, the Original sources have actually been tempered and refined over much longer periods of time and posess a richer and broader "spirit" to commune with.

Perhaps more importantly, to my vision, is that the centuries of humanity interacting with the gods have not only broadened our understanding of them but has shaped our relationship with them. One can't deny there's an older, far more developed relationship one can engage in with Zeus (or Buddha, I suppose). Whatever Yoda's history, its not a history of him engaging with humanity on a personal level beyond his role in Star Wars.

Why don't you tell me some of your experiences, Teenage Billionaire Psychopath?

With Leibniz? I can't say I've ever really had contact with the man, or even the icon beyond taking a Continental Rationalism class...

But I guess you didn't really mean Leibniz. Points on the topic at hand have been made far more eloquently by Gypsy, but whatever, I'm willing to share.

When I work with an icon, which isn't often, I'm aiming for virtues, basically. An attitude maybe, or a willingness to face situations or even ideas in a way I would otherwise be unwilling. When you're trying to invoke James Bond, or even just chat with him, what exactly are you trying to accomplish?

Don't get me wrong, you can do similar things working with gods. But the relationship is totally different. I admit that when I was a child reading books on Greek mythology, there wasn't much difference to me between Hermes and the Green Lantern, but the difference came as my practice developed. When you work with gods, or at least a god that you have a strong connection with, there is not only the sense that you've noticed something powerful and much bigger than yourself but also the sensation that the something occasionally notices you. There's a feeling of accomplishment, certainly, but for me that came after the awe and fear. One of my earliest homemade rituals, slapped together out of several different rituals I had only read about and never tried, ended with a strong message about how the deity felt about me taking shortcuts in my side of the deal (although it was more or less successful).

It wasn't the only time that happened. There's a back-and-forth with gods, on a level that you can't achieve with icons. Even if both experiences are "in your mind" only, both subjective, that doesn't mean that one isn't much deeper and further-reaching than the other. There's more to gods than just virtues, there's a style, a force, a stream that you're trying to get in touch with. It's alive in ways icons aren't. Which is why, when I and others hear someone say they haven't experienced any difference between working with gods and pop culture icons, I have to think that they simply haven't really explored the possibilities.

At any rate, you can see that I think this whole discussion is really about gods vs. icons.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
02:54 / 30.01.09
...which I guess brings us back to the semiotics discussion, which I wasn't paying as much attention to as I should have been because I'm an idiot sometimes. Guh.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
10:03 / 30.01.09
XK

For many years my practice included mainstream pagan Deities who might have well been fictional characters for all the lack of external agency I experienced in my interactions with Them. It was the sense of discrete external Personhood separate from my self that caught me off guard when I did begin working my current Deities. They decide to pick me during 'pledge week' when in my early twenties I went on pilgrimage with my Dad to Ireland. Before that trip I had never had an experience of what Closing Time refers to as "non-conventional, human-independent existence of gods".

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that you used to work with "mainstream pagan Deities" but never felt that dynamic, two-way interchange that you now experience with the Deities you now work with? But, I wonder, what do you think would happen if you - armed with the insights and understandings you now have - went back (as it were) to those mainstream pagan Deities, and rekindled your relationship with them? Would anything change? I'm posing a hypothetical question here - I realise that you in all likelyhood wouldn't want to - but what's your thoughts on this? And how do you view that earlier phase of your practice as opposed to what you do now?

The reason I'm asking you this is that for the past five years or so, I've struggled with a tremendous feeling of disconnect with much of the magical exploration I've done in the past and in particular, the fruits of that practice - mostly the writing - to the point where I literally could not bear to look at it - it felt as though it belonged to a different person - someone I didn't want anything to do with - and by extension, anyone couldn't see the obvious flaws and downright stupidity that I did -well, they must be some kind of idiot too, mustn't they? Of course, since something of the region of 90% of my published and available work hails from the period I was trying to push away, I became very bitter about the whole thing. As my tantra practice went from being just one of many themes in my magical song , to the dominant refrain - drowning out the other sounds, its as though I wanted to disown parts of that song and shoot anyone who clapped at the wrong moment.
But something's shifted - very recently - and this thread has played a part in this shift (which is one reason why I'm writing this here and now). I've realised that the disconnect I've felt for so long arises out of a particular set of circumstances that I need to face and work through, and though the song has changed, the impetus - the place from which it comes, if you like, is much the same as it always was. So, I'm coming to realise that I can (and indeed, must) seek reconciliation between what I did then, and what I do now. It feels good. I'm excited by the prospect.

So, swinging back to the theme of the thread. For years, I saw no incongruity between, say, performing an act of devotion of to Ganesa, and sensing the ageless prescence of Cthulhu suddenly when walking along a deserted beach in the middle of the night. I did what felt right at the time, without having produced a theory to explain it or frame it. On the matter of the existence of the gods, I'd have gone along with the Greek Protagoras: "Concerning the gods, whether they exist or not, and of what form they are, I cannot speak. The subject is intrinsically obscure and life is too short." I was more caught up in doing stuff than in theorising it. It wasn't really, until I began to dig deeper into tantra - in other words, to go beyond the ritual manuals and seek to understand (and thereby incorporate into my practice) the theology underpinning that practice (which I'd hitherto avoided) as found in the works of the mighty Abhinavagupta that my practice shifted into high gear. In retrospect, I'd say I narrowed my focus in order to achieve a degree of intensity - but now, the seeming contradictions have collapsed, and I'm beginning to see the wider picture (again) and its implications for me. I will say more about this - and how it relates to this present debate - if anyone wants me to.
 
 
Quantum
10:17 / 30.01.09
I'd like to hear more about that shift, please do go on!
 
 
Closed for Business Time
11:21 / 30.01.09
Aye, more please!
 
 
trouser the trouserian
13:06 / 30.01.09
This may help.

Srividya is, at its core, monistic. There is one Goddess - Lalita. She created the Universe, she is the Universe, and she is everything that makes up the Universe. She is simultaneously utterly transcendent and utterly immanent. She is present in everything, and so everything is, inherently, divine. There are three main routes for reconnecting with Lalita. The iconographic, the motive, and the spatial (these are my terms). The iconographic is the use of iconic images (statues, paintings, visualisation etc.). The motive is the speaking of Lalita's sixteen-syllable mantra - and the mantra is considered to be Lalita. The spatial is most readily understood as the Sri Yantra - Lalita as a network of interrelationships. Some (historical) practitioners have tended to view the mantric & yantric modalities as superior to the practice of approaching Lalita as an icon or anthropomorthic image. Hence the iconic is called sthula ("physical") the mantra-Lalita practice suksma ("subtle") and Yantra-Lalita practice is called para ("supreme"). Yet these modalities are not distinct, as Lalita is threefold - hence her title Tripurasundari - she who is beautiful in the three worlds - rather, they are interdependent. She is also the measurer, the measured, and the very act of measuring.

Yet, as much as She is singular, Lalita is multiform - as indeed the Universe is, because in order to enjoy herself, to play with herself, Lalita became everything. So for example, my longtime relationship to Kali is not lessened if I acknowledge Kali as an aspect of Lalita - or indeed, vice versa. In some versions of the Lalitopahkyana Kali (and Ganesa) are created as byproducts of Lalita's battle against the demon Bhandasura. In the Yantra-magic of Lalita, a Goddess arises out of each intersection between the lines. Each goddess can be approached as "seperate" to Lalita, and yet remains Lalita ultimately. Each Goddess may reveal Her own yantra, her own mystery - on and on in a potentially endless fractal-like recursiveness. The Yantra is simultaneously the Goddess, the Universe, and myself-in-the-world. Are Kali and Lalita seperate, are they aspects of each other - my answer is only that it is yes, and no, and somewhere inbetween.

The Uttaraballaka (a text by a contemporary srividya practitioner) holds that Lalita's mystery can be apprehended in moments when we are caught in a particular sentiment which is that of wonder-joy. It is in moments of joy, of wonder, of surprise, that we become one with Lalita (Lalita can be translated as "the playful one"). So Lalita's sadhana (methodology) can be that of opening up to opportunities that afford us experiences of joy, wonder, surprise, and to understand that they are gifts offered in order that we may share Her joy, Her wonder of Her eternal play.

"Let my idle chatter be the muttering of prayer, my every manual movement the execution of ritual gesture,
my walking a ceremonial circumambulation, my eating and other acts the rite of sacrifice,
my lying down prostration in worship, my every pleasure enjoyed with dedication of myself,
let whatever activity is mine be some form of worship of you."
(Saundaryalahari)

Knowing all this to be true, I strive to live according to this realisation - that everything is divine - that everything and anything may, if I allow it, afford me a glimpse of Lalita, a shared glance, a mutual recogniton - hence my adherence to the pratyabhijna (doctrine of recognition) as exemplified by Ahbinava and others. So, honestly, how can I make a boundary between one form of relationality and another?

If | choose, for example, to seek a relationship with Jvalamalini Nitya - "she who is garlanded with flames" (one of the 15 eternities) and in doing so, discover a nexus of shaktis of which she is the expression, must I then say that these, as yet hitherto unknown goddesses are somehow "lesser" than Jvalamalini because they have no historical basis, because they are not mentioned in a prior text? And if, watching Buffy one evening, I find welling up unbidden and effortless, a mystery, a becoming which I can only plumb the depths of by treating her as I would any other goddess, knowing that "she" is as much a part of Lalita's play, as I, must I then forget that moment of wonder, and say "but its only fiction?" I cannot.
 
 
ghadis
13:42 / 30.01.09
Great post Trouser. Lots to think about there.
 
  

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