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Buffy as modern Mythology?

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16:02 / 17.03.09

I blame Grant Morrison.

alex supertramp

18:04 / 17.03.09

"And if so, what is *not* a modern mythology? Do we exclude the Matrix? LotR? Dark Knight? Twilight? American Pie? El Dorado? Thundercats? South Park? My kitchen story?"

The Matrix seems like an obvious modern mythology, following the basic monomyth structure. I'm not much of a fan, but I'd put Lord of the Rings in that category as well. Would I call Dark Knight a modern mythology? No, probably not, but I would call Batman and the Joker mythological characters.

Is American Pie really a fit next to these other characters? I mean, to be fair, The Matrix, LOTR, and Dark Knight are fantasy stories, whereas American Pie is a comedy story set in a somewhat realistic world.

I think it comes down to establishing the intent of the story. No, Thundercats does not qualify as a useful mythology for most, because it was intended to entertain children. Perhaps a childish person would want to work with the Thundercats, but is it fair to compare a mythology obviously created to entertain children, with one (Like The Matrix, or LOTR) that was created as more of a world myth? You can't deny The Matrix and LOTR were designed to appeal to the world on a global scale, which is what you would want from your mythologies today, one would think. Was Thundercats designed on that same scale? Or was it just made for children whose parents will buy the toys advertised during Thundercats?

19:21 / 17.03.09

Is it though? How many of those Twilight fans will be praying at their Edward shrines in ten years?

Dude! People are getting that shit tattoo'd on them like you would not believe. Seriously. There maybe Lestat tats out there but I have been horrified by the number of twitats. I think there will be a fair share of Edward shrines in ten years. Poor RPattz he's going to have to go ask SMG how to deal with wanker fans who insist he is the character.

ONLY NICE THINGS

20:44 / 17.03.09

I can't really imagine a world where a serious attempt is made to establish which of The Matrix and Thundercats was more profound and less mercantile.

22:35 / 17.03.09

I know, it's unfair of me to compare Neo to Lion-o.

...But they are both chosen ones gifted with sight beyond sight, both have a funky black fighting mentor and cool sidekicks with distinctive gimmicks, set in a post-apocalyptic world where they are heroes hunted by evil monsters, and both are obviously based on Jesus...

alex supertramp, how do you feel about the recent Narnia movies?

22:38 / 17.03.09

alex, I notice you did not mention the Twilight example. Clearly intended to be a world myth, obvious modern mythology.

alex supertramp

23:45 / 17.03.09

I didn't comment on Twilight because I haven't seen it. I saw one of the Narnia films on a plane flight once. It was okay as far as kid's films go.

11:04 / 18.03.09

But the Lion was obviously a mythic being, right? A lot like Jesus?

I'm interested that you draw a distinction between things aimed at kids and adults, why does that matter? Plenty of mythic and religious stuff is aimed at kids-
http://www.childrensbible.com/index.html

13:57 / 18.03.09

It's an interesting side topic to consider if Narnia works better because it was crafted with the intent of being a vehicle for belief, or used the working inner bits of a known system, or if it's just really all about talking animals.

I think I read someplace that Tolkien was mortified by Lewis' blatant heavy handed proselytizing?

alex supertramp

07:01 / 19.03.09

"I'm interested that you draw a distinction between things aimed at kids and adults, why does that matter?"

It matters because I'm not usually entertained by things aimed at kids.

12:33 / 19.03.09

It matters because I'm not usually entertained by things aimed at kids.

Like Star Wars?
Or Lord of the Rings?
Or Superman?
Or, dare I say, Buffy The Vampire Slayer?
I guess the emphasis is on the word usually, eh?

I think that my introduction to the concept of working with Pop-Culture Icons goes back to '89 or '90 when I was more into Comics: in Issue 2 or 3 of "The Question Quarterly", one of the characters mentions saying a prayer to the Patron Saint of Martial Arts; Saint Bruce.

Thinking along those terms, I believe that Pop-Icon work is more like working with Catholic Saints (Who were pop-icons in their own rights). Connecting with these "Saints" allows one to access certain facets of a larger mystery. Rarely, I believe, do Pop-Icons embody the full mystery of a deity, but represent aspects of different deities in what may seem to be a more approachable, or even, bite-sized form.

The mistake is in believing that Pop-Culture Icons are Gods themselves, or that they are Gods wearing a different "Mask".

And just curious: If one works with, say, Darth Vader as though he is a "God", and Vader himself bows to a higher power "The Force", shouldn't you cut out the middle man and connect directly with the force instead? To whom does one pledge fidelity: God, or God's God?

ONLY NICE THINGS

13:31 / 19.03.09

Well, also until now the distinction wasn't between things aimed at kids and things aimed at adults, but between things aimed at entertainment and things aimed at creating a "world myth". Which is a pretty odd distinction, really, at least if one is comparing Thundercats with The Matrix. Thundercats, after all, has a rich mythic tapestry. The Thundercats are sent from a dying planet (like Superman!). They are accompanied and advised by a ghost (like Jesus! And Superman, sort of). Lion-O is identified as a saviour figure while still an infant (like Jesus and Superman!) and is given the body of a warrior while still possessing the mind of a child (like Jesus! No, hang on, sorry - like Captain Marvel!). He has mysterious powers (like Jesus, Superman and Luke Skywalker). He and his colleagues must search for a number of mystic amulets to restore the world (like the Grail knights, and, really, pretty much everyone else). Und so weiter.

14:11 / 19.03.09

Well Yeah.

Myths are vehicles for communicating truths and/or values:

Some myths, like Fairy Tales, contain moral lessons and warnings for children. Other myths, like the Bible, are written for a more "Mature" audience, but still purport to communicate truths and/or values, or moral lessons and warnings for adults.

The same messages are conveyed, but in different language aimed at different demographics. IMO

alex supertramp

00:32 / 21.03.09

I think that the silliness of things aimed at kids sometimes detracts from its mythic quality. It's a case of whether or not its too silly. For example, Bruce Timm's Batman cartoon is aimed at kids but isn't too silly and I consider it mythic. On the other hand, the Batman tv show starring Adam West was also aimed at kids, but hardly mythic, in my opinion. While still undoubtedly awesome, a little less "mythic" in quality than a less "silly" version.

ONLY NICE THINGS

00:43 / 21.03.09

How about Batman: The Brave and the Bold?

alex supertramp

02:38 / 21.03.09

I've only seen 2 episodes, but I thought Brave and the Bold was a bit more serious than shark repellent or any of the other crazy ideas on the Adam west Batman show. I don't know if I would call it mythic because I don't think I've seen enough episodes yet.

alex supertramp

03:00 / 21.03.09

I'm watching one now, where Batman fights his evil twin from another dimension "Owl Man" who has been running around robbing banks with a sack with a dollar sign on it, masquerading as Batman. So yeah, its pretty awesome, maybe even mythic, but definitely a bit corny at times.

ONLY NICE THINGS

10:48 / 21.03.09

How about Batman Beyond"?

11:52 / 21.03.09

So... If it's for children it can't be defined as mythic? Because children don't need myths?
...
Fairy tales were designed for children.

I understand that that kids show may be silly at best, crass commercialism at worst, but the essence of the stories can be based on watered down retellings of myths, don't you think?

13:22 / 21.03.09

Supertramp- "Owl Man" eh? You might like these links-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owlman_(comics)

Earth 2 - Written by Grant Morrison; Art by Frank Quitely
Ultraman, Owlman, Power Ring, and Johnny Quick rule the world without mercy or opposition. But their own personal utopia is threatened by the sudden arrival of appearance of Superman, Batman and the others in the Justice League. Realties clash as the Justice League travels to an alternate reality to face off against distorted mirror images of themselves.
GM's Owlman isn't aimed at kids.

Mind you, I think your distinction makes no sense to anyone but you- Myths Fables and Legends is key stage 2, 7-11 year olds learn about Oedipus.
Here's some examples for you to arbitrarily label mythic or kids stuff;

Phillip Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy
The Childrens Bible
Asterix and the Black Gold
Beowulf (the epic poem)
Beowulf (the 2007 movie, PG13)
Batman Begins (PG13)
Clash of the Titans (Ursula Andress as Aphrodite)
The Disney Hercules movie

13:26 / 21.03.09

Wait, I think I might understand where you're coming from- would I be right in guessing there's a scale for you ranging from shark-repellent batspray at the silly end, getting less silly, then serious stuff for grown-ups, then even more serious is mythic?

So Mythic means 'very serious'? and kids stuff is silly at the other end of the spectrum?

13:35 / 21.03.09

(Lion-O)...is given the body of a warrior while still possessing the mind of a child (like Jesus! No, hang on, sorry - like Captain Marvel!)

Like Neo, I think you'll find. Look at his vapid childlike eyes.

ONLY NICE THINGS

14:05 / 21.03.09

Neo is born twice - like Dionysus.

14:40 / 21.03.09

Dionysus/Neo is the god of the epiphany, "the god that comes".

Apparently Neo represents an average christian - blimey!

alex supertramp

18:09 / 21.03.09

I didn't say anything about Earth 2. BTW, in the cartoon Batman wins by recruiting a team of alternate dimension Batmen, one of which is a Gorilla. A little less serious than Owl Man threatening Ultra Man in Earth 2: "Remember, I still have the negatives."

21:24 / 21.03.09

But the Brave and Bold Owlman is mythic? Is Earth 2 Owlman mythic?
In my humble, when Joseph Kuhr wrote the episode (thanks imdb) he had in mind prior incarnations of Owlman and used them as inspiration. Which is quite relevant as I believe the same thing happened with Neo, Lion-O and all those other Jesus based characters we've discussed upthread. The writers were clearly aware of other characters that have come before, and used them to base their characters on.

So, the Earth 2 Owlman penned by Morrison was a reboot of the 60s Owlman, both of which have an influence on the Brave and Bold Owlman you just watched (see wikipedia). Let's take that as a parallel for, er, Lucifer and Anakin, no wait, er, I don't know, pick an example of a pop culture character based on a mythic character.
How is the B&B Owlman/insert example here a comparable and equivalent 'myth' to the original it was copied from? Don't you think that a myth which spawns a thousand stories is more powerful than the stories that are basically copies of it?
Isn't the ascription of mythic qualities to pop culture copies just an ignorance of history?

21:29 / 21.03.09

BTW Batman's multi-world team is copied from many sources notably Tom Strong and Planetary (Crossing Worlds) and the gorilla is most likely a nod to DC Goes Ape and JLApe although there's a slew of gorilla gimmick comics esp. from the 50s/60s.

22:52 / 21.03.09

Dionysus/Neo is the god of the epiphany, "the god that comes".

Hmmmm. Dionysus, especially as Baccus I can see: But Neo? Really?
...
...
...
Sorry, Sometimes I find that I'm still 12 years old...

alex supertramp

01:55 / 22.03.09

Sorry for the wikipedia reference, but this list is helpful here:

Doppelgangers

Some of these are a little iffy, like Sinestro to Green Lantern. I think doppelgangers are an archetype that you see all over sci-fi.

ONLY NICE THINGS

11:59 / 22.03.09

OK... and why is that helpful? What's the learning for us, here? Is it just about Owlman? And if so how does it help out with the whole modern mythology thing?

alex supertramp

03:10 / 23.03.09

"But the Brave and Bold Owlman is mythic? Is Earth 2 Owlman mythic?"

"Let's take that as a parallel for, er, Lucifer and Anakin, no wait, er, I don't know, pick an example of a pop culture character based on a mythic character.
How is the B&B Owlman/insert example here a comparable and equivalent 'myth' to the original it was copied from? Don't you think that a myth which spawns a thousand stories is more powerful than the stories that are basically copies of it?
Isn't the ascription of mythic qualities to pop culture copies just an ignorance of history? "

I thought it was helpful because the Doppelganger, as seen by the many times it repeats itself across genres, is clearly a mythic archetype. Much like the wise old man, the Doppelganger is like any other archetype that you see repeat itself across cultures and religions.

15:23 / 23.03.09

I thought it was helpful because the Doppelganger, as seen by the many times it repeats itself across genres, is clearly a mythic archetype. Much like the wise old man, the Doppelganger is like any other archetype that you see repeat itself across cultures and religions.

But wait. Rather than just recycling Archetypes, sticking Buffy's head on the Warrior Against Darkness Goddess instead of say, Durga, can we make new ones? I would think it is the business of new Archetypes that we should be applying ourselves. Or at least the substantially evolved new one.

For example you mention the Wise Old Man well I see some of that (Liger is going to kill me now) in the Death Note manga/anime character of L. In Unknown Armies speak he might be the God Walker of the Detective. But I also see the sacrificial dark God in him as he opposes the literal Light/Kira serial killer. I could do a break down on Dionysian vs. Apollonian and the symbols of such in the text. However, for me the potency of the fan girl crush is not that L is a remix but that he is a new kind of mythic character. For me that is, YMMV. Plus L is just that great a character.

Have we dragged the UA God Walker/avatar stuff in here yet? Many of them are older Archetypes updated into new and interesting packages.

Quants, what was the RPG you were ref'ing a while back last time we had the RPG/Deity convo?

15:35 / 23.03.09

In Nomine? Nobilis? Mage? I think probably In Nomine

Supertramp, you've confused me by quoting me and then replying to Haus. Are you going to reply to the stuff you've quoted?

15:51 / 23.03.09

I notice that the wikipedia doppelganger link has Owlman as the doppelganger of Batman, from the source Watchmen...ROOKIE-ERROR-PEDIA.

Nite Owl can be seen as a parallel to Batman, but then so can Rorshach, so I think it shows how poor a resource wikipedia can be at times. OTOH, it's quite good for slavish descriptions of fan-popular pop culture- dragging myself back to the topic, check out the Buffy episode The Replacement which is one of my faves* and is typical of the evil twin storyline.

SPOILER FOR BUFFY SEASON 5 (but frankly if you're that far behind, tough)

*fave because a) IRL twin OMG!! and b) "Kill us both Spock!" see here

15:59 / 23.03.09

(apologies for 3xpost) Freektemple, I'm also still 12 years oldDionysus/Neo is the god of the epiphany, "the god that comes" is ripped from wikipedia, and i quoted it in an entirely peurile sense reffing both LOTR slash hobbit porn ("It comes in pints!") and in a very vague way a Chris Morris sketch (Brass Eye? Jam?) frequently mentioned by Haus.
It was a bit convoluted and not too funny looking back on it, I'll get my coat.

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