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Buffy as modern Mythology?

  
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
05:14 / 03.03.09
I don't dogmatically believe in them one way or the other.

That's probably a good thing. You've accidentally got back into the question of canonicity - although there are more words in every comics written about Superman between 1938 and now than there are in the New Testament, people have certainly thought and written about Superman far less.

The death thing is interesting, because one quite important thing about Jesus is that he died - the whole point of his narrative is that he died and then came back to life. It's a mystery (not as in ... from Space). I'm not sure that dying is even the most important thing that happened to Superman that decade - he also got married, turned blue, saved the world a whole bunch of times and so on. There's quite a difference there between mystery and narrative, which is also rather relevant to Perceval's argument; being a descending goddess (and, honestly, the whole Campbell/Jung archetype thing seems to be a bit Fraserish in its desire to make all stories one story) is actually a bit different from being somebody who travels vertically downwards. Still, it's not doing any harm to believe otherwise.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
07:04 / 03.03.09
The death thing is interesting, because one quite important thing about Jesus is that he died - the whole point of his narrative is that he died and then came back to life.

On the coming back bit, there are a couple gnostic groups that denied that Christ's resurrection was meant to be taken literally...but I guess there's a discussion on canon there too.

Huh. Thought I had somewhere to go from there. Guess not.
 
 
Quantum
09:08 / 03.03.09
wow.
 
 
Ticker
18:56 / 04.03.09
I'm liking Haus in the Temple. It is a reason to check in more often.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:22 / 04.03.09
Thank you, XK. I would try out for LN, but I don't think I have the time to add any value, and I don't practise.

Something else that I find a bit off about this is that, whereas Kal-El, if he is any kind of deity is a solar deity, Jesus Christ isn't. I mean, he's the light of the world, but that's a Platonic thing, light as metaphor for knowledge of the good. Again, I think this is an oversimplification of quite a complex (and thus powerful) combo of vegetative, solar and Apolline (the latter two overlapping and interacting).

The other thing, of course, is that conscious or unconscious parallels between JC and Superman (sent to Earth by their fathers, superhuman powers, exemplars of morality) could also be attributed not to the shared solar elements, but to the fact that they are both messiah figures, in the literal sense. In fact, Superman is rather closer to the Jewish messiah figure, which you might expect - there's a lot more punching going on.
 
 
Ticker
19:20 / 05.03.09
Thank you, XK. I would try out for LN, but I don't think I have the time to add any value, and I don't practise.

We have many non practitioners, but I do understand your time constraints. That said, you are by far rocking the hell out of this thread and welcome anytime over at LN.
 
 
Quantum
08:23 / 06.03.09
True dat.

conscious or unconscious parallels between JC and Superman

Surely conscious, and Siegel was the original fanfic dude wasn't he... whoops, maybe that's a conversation for Comics.

Anyway I've been meaning to get back here to post my own experiment. Here's a little story for you...

So, imagine the scene- it's late evening, my partner and I are watching kung fu* and we are thirsty. Asked to get a drink, I willingly comply to keep my pregnant loved one content.
But wait! Entering the kitchen I find the light is broken for unknown reasons, so I am forced to stumble through the pitch black, I bark my shin! but successfully switch on a lamp, seize a bottle of fizzy water and return to the living room with the beverage. 'The lightbulb's blown in the kitchen honey' I tell my partner, and we continue to watch the kicking action, enjoying the carbonated water.

Why am I telling you this little story? Well, firstly to ask 'Is it fiction?' Is it on a par with Buffy or Superman?
Secondly to ask 'Is it Mythic?' The protagonist of the story undergoes the trials and tribulations of the classic hero's journey, consider;
A hero ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder (the kitchen) fabulous forces are there encountered and a decisive victory is won (the dark, switching on the light) the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons on his fellow man (the fizzy water)

You could even map the traditional shamanic journey onto my quest, or myths of the descent into the underworld**, but you take my point- although my story follows the format recognised by Campbell*** it is lacking something, some mythic quality. Otherwise, people could worship the fictional me as a god because I went into the kitchen.

What's missing? Elsewhere in this forum, Trouser the Trouserian used the phrase 'Compelling Narrative' which I am going to steal for this purpose. The story of my water quest is not moving or gripping, it has no affect, it is not compelling. The story of (for example) Maui by contrast is compelling and magical. But that's not the only thing.
Buffy is compelling like popcorn, but not in the same league as Jesus. Even though she died for us, for me the narrative just does not carry the weight of myth, and even if some people faint from excitement about Buffy (plenty of affect there) the story has a different purpose.

To switch examples, I'm going to see Watchmen tonight (SQUEEE! SO EXCITED!) which is very definitely a compelling narrative, but I would not consider the characters myths or gods. And not because they're not old enough, or because they're pop culture (I could easily be convinced Promethea is a contemporary mythic figure, I think deliberately so, but that's another discussion) but because their purpose is different. They are created to entertain, not to be gods.

Does that make sense? For me the purpose of pop culture stories is to entertain, the purpose of myths is to explain the world. No matter how moved I am by Starbuck's adventures, or affected by the excellent performance of Edward James Olmos, BSG is just not mythic, Adama is not a god.
Yoda is not a god, Vader is not the devil, they are shallow retellings of classic stories. With lightsabers.

(Jet Li's vehicle 'Unleashed' if you must know)
**We almost named our daughter Persephone as it happens
*** I could have added more mundane details to cover The Seventeen Stages of the Monomyth but didn't bother-
-Departure (or Separation)
The Call to Adventure
Refusal of the Call
Supernatural Aid
The Crossing of the First Threshold
Belly of The Whale
-Initiation
The Road of Trials
Mother as Goddess
Woman as Temptress
Atonement with the Father
Apotheosis
The Ultimate Boon
-Return
Refusal of the Return
The Magic Flight
Rescue from Without
The Crossing of the Return Threshold
Master of Two Worlds
Freedom to Live
 
 
grant
14:32 / 06.03.09
Wait - your kitchen is a region of "supernatural wonder"?

I think that's the crux here. We (as a culture) are good at creating convincing mock-ups of things we imagine, but the map (or CGI) isn't the same as the territory (an actual levitating clockwork city on Mars). Your kitchen is still your kitchen, even in the dark, unless, you know, you experience something otherworldly in it.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
15:33 / 06.03.09
I know heaps of guys for whom the kitchen, its contents and what goes on in there, is pretty much a region of supernatural wonder.
 
 
alex supertramp
16:18 / 06.03.09
"For me the purpose of pop culture stories is to entertain, the purpose of myths is to explain the world."

This is kind of a slippery notion. If you read some of Alan Moore's thoughts on Watchmen, or his other work, you'll see yes, there is an element of entertainment, but he's also certainly trying to explain the world.

Watch "Mindscapes of Alan Moore". About 20 minutes in, "I think that Watchmen, if it offered anything, offered new possibilities as to how we perceive the environment surrounding us and the interactions and relationships of the people within it." So if Moore's purpose with Watchmen, at least partially, was to explain the world, does that make it myth?
 
 
Ticker
16:43 / 06.03.09
**We almost named our daughter Persephone as it happens

I get a bit nervous when the people they name their human bebes after mythic/Divine personages (seems to be no problem for non human bebes). I've been on hand for it my whole life and it's a bit less desirable than having a brand new shiny name. YMMV.


There's potent magic in a truly compelling story. To run with grant's invocation of map/territory... in sympathetic magical storytelling the entire point is to shift consensual reality into line with agenda of the crafted story. Micro tweaked for impact on the macro. Question for me becomes less about the process of how it works and more about the fascination of why there seems to be less effectiveness when the audience is told it is only an entertaining story rather than a true image of reality. Do you believe Buffy died for you down to the marrow of your being or is it a matter of whimsical ornamentation on a belief system lacking in *any* passionate expressions?
 
 
grant
23:49 / 06.03.09
Funny, the naming thing and map thing seem like two aspects of the same phenomenon - drawing correspondences.

I consciously named my daughter semi-mythologically, and if you think about the number of men you probably know with an "el" at the end of their names, it becomes a pretty staggering practice, even if not entirely intentional.

I suppose the intentionality is the key aspect in drawing links between the mundane world (or pop culture) and The Big Mythological Picture - how focused the links can be between something like a name and the Eternal Powers. I mean, like every other Catholic, I was confirmed under a saint's name. Saints are one bridge between mundane life and the divine... and there's a good reason why canonization traditionally takes place a long time after the holy person has passed from here to the big beyond.
 
 
grant
02:38 / 09.03.09
Wait - why isn't Jesus a solar deity now?

I thought the whole going-into-darkness-and-coming-back was the solar thing.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:09 / 09.03.09
Not necessarily. Persephone does it and is not, as do Herakles, Orpheus, Alcestis (sort of) and Aeneas. Most of them do not actually die, but they definitely day trip in Hades.
 
 
ghadis
10:16 / 09.03.09
I'm reminded of the short lived UK soap El Dorado. If you look at that whole program and the various issues it dealt with (ex pats and all their woes etc) you could very easily map a constructive spiritual path out of it. Very Solar. Shame it got cancelled.
 
 
ghadis
10:22 / 09.03.09
See also: Getting beat up in a pub carpark and the well deserved ambulance that arrives 30 minutes later.
 
 
grant
16:34 / 09.03.09
Persephone isn't? I think I may need to amend my understanding of "solar", then. She's certainly explicitly a seasonal figure....
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:13 / 09.03.09
Dude. Winter is explicitly seasonal, but is it solar?
 
 
grant
19:38 / 09.03.09
I've been thinking in terms of solstice and equinox being solar phenomena - the shortness of days, which increases after some kind of "dawn" experience, easily metonymized into enlightenment beating back fear.

But that's not exactly right, I guess. In part, I suppose, I don't think of lunar and solar narratives as being either/or.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
06:29 / 10.03.09
That's fine, but a solar deity is precisely that - a solar deity. Helios is a solar deity, Crom Cruach is probably a solar deity, Ra is a solar deity. The most common form of deity who goes beneath the earth and comes back is the vegetative deity - gods of soil and corn. Persephone is effectively one of those - she's the intermittent nature of the bounty promised by her mother Demeter. Vegetative deities are often male, because they are in some way wedded to the Earth, and they are often scattered - they are castrated, or cut to pieces, or otherwise forcibly placed in the Earth either as seed or as a whole.

So, Jesus. Jesus is the product of a pretty sophisticated culture, and he is a mixture of elements - Jewish Messiah, Zoroastrian sun/fire deity, Platonic representative of the illuminating light of the good, Greek vegetative deity whose mystery is resurrection. He doesn't fit the many-into-one model, nor was he designed to do so. He is interesting and long-lived in no small degree because of that cross-breeding of ideas and cultures, IMEHO.

He's also entertaining, which is where I disagree with Quantum a bit.
 
 
grant
13:13 / 10.03.09
See, I get Ra and Helios, because they're sun gods, carrying the big ball of fire from horizon to horizon. But I thought Crom Cruach was more chthonic than that, giving up crops from inside the earth-mounds, swapping sacrifices for corn.

I'm confused by this category.

It does *seem* like Buddha would fit into the solar template, depending on the representation (overcoming Mara), but I may still have seized solar phenomena from the wrong end.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:04 / 10.03.09
Well, cc is short on background... the model in Conan or Slaine is certainly pretty goth. But he is also described as a golden figure surrounded by what might be the zodiac. More generally, I think the test to apply is whether the person involved is in a meaningful sense the Sun.
 
 
Ticker
18:38 / 10.03.09
But I thought Crom Cruach was more chthonic than that, giving up crops from inside the earth-mounds, swapping sacrifices for corn.

You are confusing Crom Dubh with Crom Cruach. If it helps Crom basically means Lord, so you have two honorifics listing two different Deities. Crom Dubh can be linked to the Dagda, Donn, Donn Firrine and Diarmuid.

Crom Dubh is connected to the dark Winter/Death cycle and is usually seen in opposition to a bright/Summer/Life Deity. See Diarmuid and Grainne.


If it helps, it's a pretty common confusion.
 
 
Ticker
18:48 / 10.03.09
I should add that as far as honorifics go Crom doesn't actually mean Lord.

But see for yourself "as Crom is the "King-Idol" according to the Dindshenchus".

Most explanations I've seen define it as bent or crooked but UPG points to honorific.
 
 
Ticker
19:33 / 10.03.09
I apologize for the triple threat approach but I'd like to share more info on a subject dear to me and keep being dragged away for bidness purposes.

When studying the Irish Gods it is helpful to remember that They are linked to specific places in the landscape. Many of Their places give clues as to which Deity is being discussed.

Crom Cruach / Cromm Crúaich is also associated with a mountain Croagh Patrick also known as Cruachán Aigle. It's fucking epic to climb. I didn't make it up on the first try due to bad weather but we did on the second try. The last bit is best done with hands, knees, and proper rain gear. Well worth hauling your ass up it.

I spent a good couple of years following name clues in the landscape. Crom Dubh is linked at Lough Gur to the female Deity Aine, who in turn is linked both to Grainne and a solar male sometimes given as Lugh or Finn. It is helpful to remember that the names themselves deconstruct to descriptors. Aine often is given as Radiance, Finn Bright/Fair, Crom Dubh Bent Black, and so on. All of Them have places around Lough Gur.

It is interesting to note that while some folks of the neopagan Irish bent celebrate Lughnasa the same harvest festival is also Domhnach Crom Dubh.

So in my thinking if Aine/Grainne are associated with a pair of Bright/Dark suitors and the Dark suitor has the honorific of Crom Dubh it may have some merit to consider if the bright rival might be Crom Cruach. Or conversely another theory entirely is there is no Crom Cruach beyond a bad piece of propaganda.
 
 
grant
21:16 / 10.03.09
Bent Black vs. Bent Shiny, am I getting that right?

It seems like this might be illustrating the shortcomings of using a narrow version of pop culture figures as deities - the way they're linked to the environment (like the sun, or the landscape).

Hmm.
 
 
Ticker
19:35 / 11.03.09
Sorry I may not being explaining this very well so thank you for the chance to try and work through it.

So to try this out with Buffyverse analogy... walk with me for a minute.

Buffy also is known as 'The Slayer: She Who Hangs Out in Cemeteries A Lot' also she's in Sunnydale (most of the time). We know there have been many Slayers and even some while Buffy was on duty and even extra ones in Sunnydale. The Slayer in Sunnydale could be ambiguous unless you are familiar with the mythology enough to say which Slayer is the real Sunnydale Slayer. A bunch of people can claim the title of Slayer even before the whole bit with the fancifying of the axe.

Sunnydale is also useful here because I think many of the Deities got Their names from the places associated with them. Cruach maybe a stack, Crom maybe crooked or bent and we maybe looking at adjectives to describe the places of power. Who does the Slayer refer to unless you have a fixed secondary point of reference even if it is just a timeframe?

Crom Dubh is 'bent black' in certain places in the landscape and Donn Firinne 'dark truth' in others. Cnoc (anglo Knock) is the common big hill label so Donn Firinne's mountain in Limerick is Cnoc Firinne (or Knockfeerina). Is Crom Cruach a reference to a Deity's place of power, Bent Stack and like Sunnydale the informed member of the culture would grok who that was? You would know who was meant by the 'Sunnydale Slayer' or 'the Slayer of Sunnydale' even if you were a fan of say, Fray.

For the Deity of the Dead/Winter/Harvest cycle I think the key place name word isn't Crom but the dark/black descriptor. If Crom Cruach is also Cenn Cruaich (or Cenncroithi) we can also do some linking. But if all we had was Cnoc Firinne we might not get the critical descriptor but right away.

Ultimately I've found the key is often in the alignments at the places, the holidays celebrated there, and the local (and I mean local to the exact spot) lore. Sometimes you find place names reflect the animal totems associated with the Deity.

Beyond that, my feeling is that the myth of Dairmuid and Grainne eloping chased by her fiance Finn is a seasonal cycle playing out in the landscape. I also tend to believe this is the Winter aspects of the Deities (or if you wish Their avatars). It's also one of the few stories where Finn is a complete jerk. Seriously even his own son is like WTF by the end of it.

To spin this out in a new direction, I can't physically go to where Buffy lives. I can't even retrace much of her travels or adventures for pilgrimage. That relationship of place in the landscape and the Divine just doesn't line up in the same way it does with an entire range of older candidates for worship. Climbing a sacred hill and making an offering aligns my consciousness in ways going to youtube or watching a dvd does not.

To push this a bit further I'd add that my most profound experiences with Deity have always occurred in physical locations associated with Them. That might just be me tho, YMMV.
 
 
alex supertramp
04:36 / 12.03.09
I know I've said this before, but I think Buffy might not be the best example of a pop culture mythology to work with in magical practice.
 
 
grant
16:19 / 12.03.09
So you're saying, in effect, Crom Cruach is Buffy and Crom Dubh is Faith, only with closer ties to a real, visitable landscape?

Or is it more that Cruach and Dubh offer different vehicles for related stories (like Jay Garrick Flash vs. Barry Allen Flash)?

I think part of my confusion is orbiting around this:

Cromm Crúaich is also associated with a mountain Croagh Patrick also known as Cruachán Aigle.

Cruaich/Croagh/Cruachan.... The stack is a mountain is a mound. Could be a projection into the sky, but also has subterranean roots.

---

I'm also now thinking of Christian points of pilgrimage, and wondering what a pilgrimage to Metropolis would be like.
 
 
Ticker
18:39 / 12.03.09
So you're saying, in effect, Crom Cruach is Buffy and Crom Dubh is Faith, only with closer ties to a real, visitable landscape?

I think my heart stopped beating when I read that. Or I threw up a little in my mouth. It was unpleasant either way.

I think it is more like this. There is *a* Slayer named Buffy Summers. Slayer Buffy Summers = are all individual words of meaning we put together to indicate a specific personage. Doctor Julian Summers, Slayer Faith Lehane, and Elizabeth Buffy Doolittle have various levels of relation to Slayer Buffy Summers which we can potentially figure out by knowing relationships and titles through word meaning.

I think part of my confusion is orbiting around this:

Cromm Crúaich is also associated with a mountain Croagh Patrick also known as Cruachán Aigle.

Cruaich/Croagh/Cruachan.... The stack is a mountain is a mound. Could be a projection into the sky, but also has subterranean roots.


Well, I'm not going to go on about what the ancients thought because I have scant evidence to base any of that on. From what I am familiar with I will say the Dark/Bright pairs are usually treated as discrete individuals. Donn and His bright Opposite may have a closer relationship but there was and is I suspect a purpose to not being considered to aspects of the same Being (unless you get all the way up to Totality and then all bets are off). So I'm not going to say Donn and Lugh have some sort of seasonal identity swap going on beyond the polyandry the Mrs. seems to have arranged. Lady Gregory on the other hand says that Aine is also in fact the Morrigu.

A bit of rummaging in the elopement myth sets up this pattern:

Donn (progenitor Death God) is father to Dairmuid (mortal).
Dagda (father God) is father to Oengus (god of love) by Boann the cattle Goddess during an affair. The Dagda also had a tryst with the Morrigu.
Oengus is foster father to Dairmuid (who has an irresistible love spot).

Cormac Mac Art High King of Ireland (mortal) has a daughter Grainne (mortal).
Fionn mac Cumhaill whose actual name is Deimne (mortal) is betrothed to Grainne. But he's old she's young and she falls for Dairmuid. Badgers the poor kid like crazy and cast, as they say, aspersions on his manhood until he steps up.

Grainne as the daughter of the High King can be viewed as a mortal version of the Goddess of Sovereignty, a very big deal in Irish myth. All power is derived from Her and Her favor.

To side track into names for a moment Grainne means grain, Fionn means fair or bright, Dairmuid without enemies or envy free, Dagda means Good God, Aine is sometimes bright or oddly enough teat, Morrigu means Great Queen, Boann is white cow, and Lugh sometimes is given as shining. Oh and yes Donn is dark or brown and Crom Dubh is bent or stooped black.

The legend of Crom Dubh is that He carries the grain child up out of the earth on His back and that the grain child Goddess is with Him during the Winter under the earth. The Lios in Limerick is the largest circle of standing stones in Ireland and is thought to function not only to mark the seasonal alignments but also a sacred cattle pen. There at the Lios Crom Dubh shares the Circle with Aine. At Cnoc Aine the Goddess has Her sidhe mound about 16 miles in alignment with Her brother's sidhe mound at Cnoc Firrinne

There is also one of Dairmuid and Grainne's beds about a quarter mile from the Lios.

In my mind much like a David Lynch plot there are mirrors of individuals in other individuals. Does that make them the same person? Is the Good God on the harvest job called the Stooped Black One? What's up with the Good God having an affair (and subsequent offspring) with the White Cow or the Great Queen? What's up with the Dark Truth bowling for potato crops against His sister the Radiant and /or Teat (Radiant Teat could very well be a cow name if you ask me).

I'm also now thinking of Christian points of pilgrimage, and wondering what a pilgrimage to Metropolis would be like.

I've been to Gotham several times and while it's fun, it's also expensive. I always leave grateful to have escaped before the zombies show up or Arkham erupts.
 
 
Ticker
18:55 / 13.03.09
Getting a bit back on topic...

If one were to worship a modern myth I suspect this is where you would go on pilgrimage?
 
 
Quantum
13:54 / 16.03.09
Or here

To pop back to my kitchen myth;
Wait - your kitchen is a region of "supernatural wonder"?

Let's say there was a ghost in the kitchen and I didn't know. Just to be clear about this my adventure into the culinary otherworld never actualy took place- it's a fiction. I think it's a good example though to contrast with buffy, as it has many of the features of other fictions considered worthy of worship, but is missing something compelling.
In fact, let's take it for granted we can adapt the story to include all the theoretical features people have mentioned, all the stages of the monomyth etc. it's still not going to have that certain something that makes people want to worship the fictional characters in it.
My argument is that the missing 'something' is a powerful story, a compelling narrative, gripping characters etc. but that even if my kitchen story had those features it would still not be worth worshipping.

Take Watchmen as a topical example- strong story, good characters, compelling narrative, cult following, is it a modern mythology?
And if so, what is *not* a modern mythology? Do we exclude the Matrix? LotR? Dark Knight? Twilight? American Pie? El Dorado? Thundercats? South Park? My kitchen story?

I have trouble understanding how people can equate Cartman and the Greek gods and put them on a par. If you do that surely you have to admit that all fictional characters and all mythic characters are just equally vapid sock puppets? How can you allow Skywalker myth-hood but not Lion-O? How can you say Buffy is a modern myth but the character from my kitchen fiction is not? Where's the dividing line?

I can understand not drawing a distinction between them as it's not important (cf. Trouser's posts a few pages ago) and everything is a window to the divine, but if you agree some things are mythic and some things are not, surely there's only so much you can give god status too before feeling silly.
 
 
Quantum
13:59 / 16.03.09
More simply- is there a difference between the Norse God Loki and the Marvel character Loki?

I think there is.
 
 
Ticker
18:08 / 16.03.09
Belief, potent or indifferent, is the crux.

Belief does really weird shit to people. You mentioned Twilight (again YOU mentioned it). Utter piece of steaming intestinal lining rupture on the glass strewn July freeway. But, a ginormous amount of people are madly in-belief over Edward Cullen (RPattz is another matter- move away from the poor boy- nothing to see here.)

People of all ages and gender get crazy eyed lunatic over a fictional character as their template for true happiness and want him to be for realz. Like fainting ecstatic self harming mystical over a fictional character.

The fanfic alone will scald your brain nevermind the serious worshipers.
 
 
Quantum
16:00 / 17.03.09
Is it though? How many of those Twilight fans will be praying at their Edward shrines in ten years? How many people still worship Lestat I wonder?
What I mean is, it's not just the belief. To me it's bit like the difference between love and infatuation, I just can't believe that a relationship with a pop culture vampire is going to have the depth and longevity of a relationship with a mythic being or god.
 
  

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