BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Doctor Who, Season Four, Non-spoiler Thread

 
  

Page: 12345(6)7891011... 28

 
 
Lama glama
12:32 / 11.05.08
Also, what do we suppose the chances of Jenny's return for the finale will be? Every sixth episode of new-Who has always featured a returning aspect:

S1: The Daleks
S2: Pete's World
S3: Lazarus' aging technology
S4: Jenny?
 
 
Lama glama
12:51 / 11.05.08
One last bit of gushing praise then I'll shut up:
My favourite moment has to be Donna's feminine wiles hairflick: absolutely classic.
 
 
Triplets
16:40 / 11.05.08
Bring on the hate from the Barbelith miserable machine.

Don't get me wrong, Randy. I like things that are fun. I don't like things that are shit.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
17:08 / 11.05.08
I had an idea, during this, that the Tardis could become a sort of Fellini-esque space/time scene for the Doctor, in which all the ladies he met would get dragged on board, and he could agonise about his relationships with them while chaining cigs, and wearing dark glasses.

'My daughter ... should I make love to her? She might talk to the press about it ...

'I do not want to make love to my new assistant however. Of that, dear diary, I am assured. Sometimes, I want to kill her, actually. I wonder, sometimes; what is she doing on my programme?'
 
 
All Acting Regiment
17:21 / 11.05.08
Good episode. Yes, the anti-war stuff was a bit un-subtle, but don't you feel it was rather more subtle than the decidedly pro-war message of, well, most everything else on TV that involves war, including the news?
 
 
Kali, Queen of Kitteh
19:35 / 11.05.08
I am currently finding myself bothered--by both my reaction towards the comments and the comments themselves--by reading a favorite author's blog who laments about Tate. After pretty much have proven herself a Who fan only because Eccleston revived--her blog entry today balks at the "hokiness of Tom Baker. And I cannot stand Sarah Jane" she makes me want to write her and go, "Listen, I'm sorry that for you Who has to have a supple young girl who gushes over the Doctor's every move to make it interesting and watchable for you, but please, BUTT OUT."

See? Bothered by myself.
 
 
Triplets
19:40 / 11.05.08
don't you feel it was rather more subtle than the decidedly pro-war message of, well, most everything else on TV that involves war, including the news?

Actually, I don't. It was like being stamped on by David Tennant, repeatedly, with the beat increasing to a standing march in the final scenes. On my face.

Just because certain portions of telly might be pro-war doesn't mean Doctor Who has to spam me with anti-war messages. And even if that's what it wants to be Children of Blood, with it's child soldiers, was far more poetic and subtle with pretty much the same message.

We didn't see Jenny-shooting General Waugh (or whatever his name was) get imprisoned in a mirror for eternity either. Minus two more points for that.
 
 
Triplets
19:49 / 11.05.08
Beyond that, though, did anyone else feel that this episode was, perhaps, written far earlier, with Martha in mind as the main companion only to be swapped out for Donna during re-writes?

Would explain why Donna felt under used (divvied up screen time), why Donna used the stethoscope when it felt like such a Martha-ry thing to do and why Martha's own jaunt across the unterraformed hills was spectacularly boring.

I imagine this episode was written a year or so ago with the framework of "Doctor and Martha, plus superfluous 3rd companion" in mind.
 
 
iamus
20:59 / 11.05.08
Bring on the hate from the Barbelith miserable machine.

Mon then, Randy. To be fair, in my time I've seen you turn your nose up at a fair few things I'd consider Joycore. I reckon response to this series has been pretty positive so far.

Me? I'm not feeling this episode especially, and other than the first episode (which I reckon was a bit of a wobble) I think this series has been fuckin excellent so far. Been very old who in a lot of places. I thought Pompeii was a bit Hartnell, Ood a bit Troughton (from what little I know of the era) and Sontarans a bit Pertwee. Lots of great character stuff, tons of icky/scary monstery gubbins and a good deal of heart.

I'm really getting this. Much as it surprises me to say it, I think Tate is a better companion than Agyeman was. Agyeman could never really sell me on the big emotional bits. I thought when it came to the epic stuff, it was always kind of undersold and when it was the more personal stuff she never quite pushed it hard enough. She was never less than extremely likeable, but I couldn't really get into her.

I think Tate's great, aside from the odd bolshy shouty moments when some of her more irritating comedic tics come out I think she pitches it just about right. I think she handles the family stuff brilliantly and I thought her bit with the unprocessed Ood was great too. Bringing The Doctor down to earth is what she does best, and that's what I wanted from her character since the end of Season 2.

This episode felt a little poorly directed and poorly played. Save for the major twists, the script seemed a bit by the numbers, tanking it along to get to the end. The pacing of the direction was a bit skewiff and I don't reckon the acting was as good as it's been elsewhere, even amongst the principles.

I wasn't totally sold on Little Ms. Moffett either, who I reckon is probably a pretty good actress but, nice gesture aside, was maybe slightly miscast. I dunno. There were bits where I thought she was great (her death scene where The Doctor's talking to her as she slips away was her strongest moment here. Bloody brilliant, that.) But though I agree with her enthusiastic take on the character 100%, something about the way she played it didn't feel quite right to me. Mostly, I think she was lacking emotional weight, and as a result, it made it harder for them to sell the Buffy bits.

There was lots to like too though. The main twist about the length of the war was good (though I caught that before the reveal) and I thought Martha's reaction to the Hath dying was some of the best emoting she's done (even though the manner of his death was a bit muuuuuh).

Going from my own fannish nitpicks, I would have liked it if Jenny's death had been not from a bullet but from a defect in the cloning process, giving her only a short while to live. This would have worked into the main twist perfectly and I think it would have made for a stronger, more cohesive story. She totally could have been saved by her Really Great Time Lord DNA still.

I still thought it was good. Just not so much as the last few. I'd love to see Jenny again though, cause she has the potential to be a really interesting character. She needs a seat in the TARDIS, definitely.
 
 
Poke it with a stick
21:41 / 11.05.08
Seeing as it was supposedly Moffat who pushed for Jenny's survival, maybe he wants to have a little side project of his own for when Torchwood goes tits-up?

After all, Michelle Ryan's looking for work and put in a pretty good turn in Moffat's Jekyll.
 
 
uncle retrospective
22:32 / 11.05.08
Did anyone yell KAHN! when jenny came back to life or was it just me?
 
 
Lama glama
23:14 / 11.05.08
I've just rewatched the episode and can't help but wonder: Is Freema Agyeman's completely OTT bawling and wailing reaction to the drowning of Martha's fish-friend a reaction to the character's death or is it the actor's reaction to being essentially written out of the show and given nothing very interesting to do in all subsequent Torchwood and Doctor Who appearances? She really was going for it: she didn't even cry when her maid friend from Human Nature was hollowed out and used as a puppet by aliens.


Captain John's lipgloss: I don't think Steven Moffat would be interested in doing a Jenny spin-off. He's frequently said how disinterested he is in writing for the other spin-offs (understandably when it comes to Torchwood), so I don't see why he'd pursue Jenny Who in lieu of his own projects like Tin Tin and possibly the main Who show itself.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
23:36 / 11.05.08
Mon then, Randy. To be fair, in my time I've seen you turn your nose up at a fair few things I'd consider Joycore.

Yeah, you're right. I was having A Moment.

On the pacing thing> I still think that there's a massive misunderstanding, on the part of those plotting the series, as to which storylines justify two episodes and which can only sustain a single one. Either that or the forty-five minute running time simply isn't suitable for the style of the character or writers (in much the same way as some of the old 2000AD writers couldn't turn out anything decent when they moved from 6 page episodes to the 20-odd pages of the Marvel/DC format).

Trips> I thought it was more that Martha was the character thrown in at the last minute. There didn't seem to be much of a reason for her to be there, beyond there being a need for a companion to stick around with the Doctor to put him right on the daughter stuff, but also a need in the script for some way of showing the conflict from both sides.

The previous storyline had already given Martha plenty of good reasons for sticking it out on Earth - reasons which, at that time, she was totally down with - so I'm not buying the explanation given in Confidential that there was a need to put her through the shit one last time to make her realise that she didn't want that any longer. In fact, there was *almost* a moment in Confidential where the writer of this ep admitted that they just needed another familiar character to play scenes out from the Hath pov.
 
 
iamus
00:47 / 12.05.08
Also, what do we suppose the chances of Jenny's return for the finale will be? Every sixth episode of new-Who has always featured a returning aspect:

S1: The Daleks
S2: Pete's World
S3: Lazarus' aging technology
S4: Jenny?


Here's a thought...

If the show's taking a break for a year and the production crew's shifting about, it's likely RTD'll want to put his house in order and give a nice big resolution to the main thematic arc of all his shows. The Lonely God thing. Rose'll be back, we've had Martha. I wonder if they might give The Doctor a break and bring his daughter aboard the TARDIS?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
04:38 / 12.05.08
Rather like pregnant Gwen in Torchwood I suspect that this story was reverse engineered from RTD saying "I know, it'll really piss off those silly old Doctor Who fans if we make them think we're going to bring back the Doctor's family", but other than that awkward point the episode was fun and Jenny did grow on me.
 
 
GogMickGog
10:12 / 12.05.08
I enjoyed it, but rather reluctantly. I don't want to come over all 'Outpost Gallifrey' but for me this episode carried all the attendant weaknesses of New Who - the bludgeoning score, Tennant in sanctimonious permagurn (like Pertwee with surplus morals) and the awful tendency to rewrite an entire culture in 40 minutes. I'd really like to see a story where the Doc. comes to a troubled world and, you know, doesn't end up as another revered Godhead with arms outstretched.

Perhaps it's a symptom of being far too pop-culture literate, but the moment Jenny and the Doc were talking about 'seeing new worlds' I knew it would be of the 'awfully big adventure' type and only reached on the end of a bullet. All her death needed was a slo-mo dive and an extended 'nnnoooooo' to achieve true clichéd perfection.

Grump over.

Rather warming to Tate and felt Miss Moffat as enaging and fresh a presence as Sally Sparrow was last series (wherefore art thou?). Tres excited by the Christie stuff, and the two parter afterward looks like being a series highlight.
 
 
Lama glama
10:18 / 12.05.08
I enjoyed it, but rather reluctantly. I don't want to come over all 'Outpost Gallifrey

Funnily enough, Outpost Gallifrey were surprisingly positive about it this week, despite grumping about the episode all week long.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
15:00 / 12.05.08
What's OP like, for talking about Who?
 
 
Lama glama
15:05 / 12.05.08
Depends really. They're a bit rabid at times, but it's the best place on the web for news and spoilers, as well as discussion of other Who stuff, like the books, audio plays, music, conventions etc.

Never go on the site after a new episode has been broadcast. Give it a day or so for the insane people to rip it to shreds or praise it to high heaven and after a few days the interesting, more measured opinions start seeping through. Requires registration to view though..

www.doctorwhoforum.com
 
 
raggedman
20:50 / 12.05.08
she didn't regenerate, she just had time vortex breath

was this short hand for 'she can regenerate a bit' cf captain jack
or 'she can regenerate a bit' cf captain jack oooh spooky bad wolf/rose connection'

loved jenny, would have liked her as a companion for a bit before running off
that 'what are you going to do tell my dad?' line was weird though, made me think it was implying she was waiting till he'd gone to come back
 
 
Dead Megatron
23:11 / 12.05.08
And my bet for the "we're not in a relationship" bit in every episode still stands.

Plus, shouldn't Jenny's appearance and personality change after her regeneration? Or her being a test tube time lady makes her slightly different? Or did the producers just didn't botther to hire another actress?

Martha, Martha, watch your step. Now the nice Hath* is dead.

*for some reason, the word "Grabula" came to my mind when I was wondering what could be his/her/its name. And right then, he/she/it died.
 
 
Eloi Tsabaoth
09:40 / 13.05.08
Was this whole episode just an elaborate parody of the Mary Sue phenomenon in fan fiction? A daughter is created for the doctor, a new time-lord with in-built military training and pretty blonde hair, backflips through laser beams, wins his love, sacrifices her life so he can live, then regenerates (without changing appearance, apparently) and flies off to have adventures?
Do me a cheesy quaver.
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:07 / 13.05.08
The energy that came out of her looked more like the teraforming matrix gas to me. I presumed it was a side-effect of being shot ground zero to the thing being activated.
 
 
Eloi Tsabaoth
12:08 / 13.05.08
I should add I didn't hate the episode, I liked some of the character moments and the whole concept of the war actually only being 7 days old (Making Cobb's grizzled old war-horse act look pretty pathetic).
 
 
slagar
14:41 / 13.05.08
I took it the terraforming gases which resurrected her, much like the Genesis Project resurrected Spock.
 
 
Eloi Tsabaoth
14:56 / 13.05.08
Yeah, sure, why the hell not. Alternatively it was the robots that built the colony, which were in fact nanobots. Or a byproduct of the cloning process mixing with natural Time-lord physiology. Or somehow Rose did it was she was Bad Wolf three series ago. And a wizard.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
15:51 / 13.05.08
Does it really fucking matter?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
15:52 / 13.05.08
I mean, you seem to have had no problem with the Doctor pulling a toy mouse from out of his skin-tight suit.
 
 
Lama glama
15:53 / 13.05.08
His pockets are bigger on the inside.
 
 
Evil Scientist
17:04 / 13.05.08
Does it really fucking matter?

Apparently.
 
 
slagar
17:09 / 13.05.08
The Doctor has always has the ability to pull almost anything from his coat pockets. I would think the stethoscope would be a harder to hide than a toy mouse, though.

It matters in that they showed a specific way she came back to life, which was different from a regeneration. It wasn't a regemeration and there's no reason to think, from that episode, she could survive another death experience on a non-terraforming planet.
 
 
Poke it with a stick
18:09 / 13.05.08
I'm inclined to agree that no, it doesn't really fucking matter, but I think, now we're discussing it, possibly the idea here was that she was a newly-minted time lady/clone/whatever the hell she was and, like the Doctor in the Christmas Invasion, she was still able to regenerate without a complete um... regeneration. Next time she gets fatally injured, I'd expect to see her played by a new actress.
Not that I'm particularly bothered if we see her again or not - it was an alright episode, but it didn't really add anything to the Doctor's story other than muddy the waters a bit.
 
 
Feverfew
19:41 / 13.05.08
The Doctor has always has the ability to pull almost anything from his coat pockets. I would think the stethoscope would be a harder to hide than a toy mouse, though.

Hammerspace?
 
 
Kali, Queen of Kitteh
20:11 / 13.05.08
I, for one, loved the toy mouse.
 
 
penitentvandal
21:36 / 13.05.08
It was a little bit Timesplitters, though, wasn't it? (Substitute FPS of your choice, naturally.)

I actually thought, at first, that the twist would be that they were in a simulation of some sort...
 
  

Page: 12345(6)7891011... 28

 
  
Add Your Reply